Eternal state at death?

[HungerForTruth]

I often talk to "Christians" that are convinced that the eternal state of believers and unbelievers (yeah - the old heaven and hell thing) is fixed at the moment of death. 

Where in scripture do they get this notion?  When I tell them the bible never says your state is fixed at the moment of death they often go bonkers.  Is it church tradition?  Any insight would be helpful.

thanks,
hunger

[jabcat]

surely church tradition, but also based on this scripture I think;  "after death the judgment".  I see that used as meaning "that's it, one place or the other forever, nothing else can or will be done" - when that's not literally what it says.  I think assumptions are made (such as the "unpardonable" sin - which isn't what that scripture says either).

[Dandelion]

I often talk to "Christians" that are convinced that the eternal state of believers and unbelievers (yeah - the old heaven and hell thing) is fixed at the moment of death. 

Where in scripture do they get this notion?  When I tell them the bible never says your state is fixed at the moment of death they often go bonkers.  Is it church tradition?  Any insight would be helpful.

thanks,
hunger

Martin Luther, as I see it, is largely responsible for this.  When he was forced to leave the RC Church, a big part of the split was initially over the issue of people paying for indulgences for their beloved deceased family members. Luther wanted to do away with the notion that people could be bought out of purgatory. He did away with the Catholic notion of purgatory, thus, judgement upon death. He took some books out of the Bible, i.e., Macabees, which stated that the dead were prayed for.  The Bible verse I was taught, as a Lutheran Deacon, to confirm this was as follows:

...26Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. Hebrews 9:26 -28 :declare:

As the leader of Church Reformation, Luther had a huge impact upon the Protestant theology. I know, as a Lutheran, though there is much room for dissent, this issue is usually very closed to discussion. Thus, this is a very strong Protestant tradition. Catholics believe in purgatory, so there is 'room for improvement' in their theology, although, in the Catholic Church, if you are destined for Hell, nothing can change that. I believe Orthodox theology is similar to that of Catholics, in this area, but not 100% sure.

So, yes, HungerforTruth........as we say in the Bronx.......Good Luck with that!    :winkgrin:

Although, I once saw a quote attributed to Luther in a Christian Universalist article, about God chasing after us, even after death........I think I will explore it some more, and try to find the quote again. If I do, I will post it here.

D.

[HungerForTruth]

Thank both of you for your responses.  Both are very helpful.  The church I belong to and helped plant is very "Reformed".  I think I will either have to keep quiet or leave.  They are very well set in their "reformation" doctrines.

[jabcat]

Good, ty.

I personally understand where they see election/pre-destination in the scriptures.  I also believe it's there.  IMO, though,  they miss the "end-game", i.e., ultimate reconciliation of all (which of course is a HUGE missing piece).  I used to be ignorant of election in the scriptures, for various reasons, but since God gave me a view of UR I've come to see it as the elect/pre-destined in this age, everyone else (the destined) in the next.  I agree, it would be difficult to be too wrapped up in a eternal torment group.  I had to totally pull out for awhile to gain perspective.  Now I attend with my family once a week.  There are still certain things I like about it, some of the basics.  I'm not a "member" - fellowship with and 'amen' what I can, and peripherally observe the rest.   :2c:

[Lazarus Short]

Natal astrology predicts your fate in life by the positions of the sun, moon, and planets at the moment of your birth.  :doh:

Christian theology predicts your fate in death by your spiritual state at the moment of your death.  :laugh:

Parallel thinking.  :friendstu:  :declare:

[anti_nietzsche]

I also don't quite get where this is coming from. Before I entered christianity I thinK I always had this notion that after death I would go to God and get into a court session and that Jesus Christ would be my advocate there, like He would be the advocate of everyone really. The Cross would serve as a counterweight to sin weighing more than them and God would attribute it to us. Later I found that christianity believes you have to accept this Jesus and His Cross in life already if you want to apply for it, it would not be allowed to do so in Heaven.

[HungerForTruth]

Good, ty.

I personally understand where they see election/pre-destination in the scriptures.  I also believe it's there.  IMO, though,  they miss the "end-game", i.e., ultimate reconciliation of all (which of course is a HUGE missing piece).  I used to be ignorant of election in the scriptures, for various reasons, but since God gave me a view of UR I've come to see it as the elect/pre-destined in this age, everyone else (the destined) in the next.  I agree, it would be difficult to be too wrapped up in a eternal torment group.  I had to totally pull out for awhile to gain perspective.  Now I attend with my family once a week.  There are still certain things I like about it, some of the basics.  I'm not a "member" - fellowship with and 'amen' what I can, and peripherally observe the rest.   :2c:

Well put and I agree totally.  Luckily - the preaching does not dwell on hell but when it comes up in a passage it is taught incorrectly of course.  We teach books of the bible line by line.

What grieves me most is I see my son (who is an associate pastor at this church) beginning to adopt a "we are right - they are wrong" attitude concerning other views of scripture.  I have come to realize we need to seek unity - fellowship around what we can.  Dogma can be so divisive, and IMHO - that is what the world system wants - a divided church.

So with my son, I have taken the approach of talking about church history in general without "coming out" about UR - yet.  His interest is sparked so he is starting to study the pre Augustine church, the Constantinople/Justinian eras and how and why the doctrine of "HELL" was developed.  Trouble is - he is reading a multi volume set of "reformed" Church History with an obvious slant from what I have read in it. 

Anyway - please pray for his enlightenment. :Pray:

[sheila]

it is the same as 'taking the name of the Lord in vain"  One of His names is 'SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN"

   The disciples[o'ye of little faith] thought not many would be saved...and Jesus stated 'what is impossible with men..is possible with God"

[HungerForTruth]

Although, I once saw a quote attributed to Luther in a Christian Universalist article, about God chasing after us, even after death........I think I will explore it some more, and try to find the quote again. If I do, I will post it here.

D.

Here it is?  http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/martin_luther_universalist.html

God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future. (Martin Luther's letter to Hans von Rechenberg, 1522.)

[SevanthDay]

surely church tradition, but also based on this scripture I think;  "after death the judgment".  I see that used as meaning "that's it, one place or the other forever, nothing else can or will be done" - when that's not literally what it says.  I think assumptions are made (such as the "unpardonable" sin - which isn't what that scripture says either).

Jesus in dying for our sins has buried the old man with Jesus in his death thus the old man dead in trespasses and sins is dead and if that old man is dead then what man is being judged? (1 Peter 4:17 ) (2Co 5:14)

God bless you,

SeventhDay

[micah7:9]

Me thinks, and this is just my opinion alone, you like to keep it stirred up, I, me personally get this from your posts. That is just me and I mean no offence.  :Peace2:

[SevanthDay]

Me thinks, and this is just my opinion alone, you like to keep it stirred up, I, me personally get this from your posts. That is just me and I mean no offence.  :Peace2:

Of course I do! The truth should do that should it not? If God reveals something to you does it not stir you? What is the Spirit of conviction for if it does not stir us?

Do we have preconceptions? What happens if our preconceptions do not line up with the truth? What does the truth do to us if we hold unto our preconceptions or tradition? Either we  through conviction are stirred up to change our thinking or we are stubborn and hold harder unto our preconceptions or tradition.

Now, Jesus saying stirred up his listeners and some repented and some remained stubborn.

God bless you,

SeventhDay

[SevanthDay]

Good, ty.

I personally understand where they see election/pre-destination in the scriptures.  I also believe it's there.  IMO, though,  they miss the "end-game", i.e., ultimate reconciliation of all (which of course is a HUGE missing piece).  I used to be ignorant of election in the scriptures, for various reasons, but since God gave me a view of UR I've come to see it as the elect/pre-destined in this age, everyone else (the destined) in the next.  I agree, it would be difficult to be too wrapped up in a eternal torment group.  I had to totally pull out for awhile to gain perspective.  Now I attend with my family once a week.  There are still certain things I like about it, some of the basics.  I'm not a "member" - fellowship with and 'amen' what I can, and peripherally observe the rest.   :2c:

Well put and I agree totally.  Luckily - the preaching does not dwell on hell but when it comes up in a passage it is taught incorrectly of course.  We teach books of the bible line by line.

What grieves me most is I see my son (who is an associate pastor at this church) beginning to adopt a "we are right - they are wrong" attitude concerning other views of scripture.  I have come to realize we need to seek unity - fellowship around what we can.  Dogma can be so divisive, and IMHO - that is what the world system wants - a divided church.

So with my son, I have taken the approach of talking about church history in general without "coming out" about UR - yet.  His interest is sparked so he is starting to study the pre Augustine church, the Constantinople/Justinian eras and how and why the doctrine of "HELL" was developed.  Trouble is - he is reading a multi volume set of "reformed" Church History with an obvious slant from what I have read in it. 

Anyway - please pray for his enlightenment. :Pray:

I pray that your son has a hunger and love for the truth and seeks new manna directly from God moment by moment. The Spirit really speaks!  :dsunny:

God bless you,

SeventhDay

[rosered]

Good, ty.

I personally understand where they see election/pre-destination in the scriptures.  I also believe it's there.  IMO, though,  they miss the "end-game", i.e., ultimate reconciliation of all (which of course is a HUGE missing piece).  I used to be ignorant of election in the scriptures, for various reasons, but since God gave me a view of UR I've come to see it as the elect/pre-destined in this age, everyone else (the destined) in the next.  I agree, it would be difficult to be too wrapped up in a eternal torment group.  I had to totally pull out for awhile to gain perspective.  Now I attend with my family once a week.  There are still certain things I like about it, some of the basics.  I'm not a "member" - fellowship with and 'amen' what I can, and peripherally observe the rest.   :2c:

Well put and I agree totally.  Luckily - the preaching does not dwell on hell but when it comes up in a passage it is taught incorrectly of course.  We teach books of the bible line by line.

What grieves me most is I see my son (who is an associate pastor at this church) beginning to adopt a "we are right - they are wrong" attitude concerning other views of scripture.  I have come to realize we need to seek unity - fellowship around what we can.  Dogma can be so divisive, and IMHO - that is what the world system wants - a divided church.

So with my son, I have taken the approach of talking about church history in general without "coming out" about UR - yet.  His interest is sparked so he is starting to study the pre Augustine church, the Constantinople/Justinian eras and how and why the doctrine of "HELL" was developed.  Trouble is - he is reading a multi volume set of "reformed" Church History with an obvious slant from what I have read in it. 

Anyway - please pray for his enlightenment. :Pray:

I pray that your son has a hunger and love for the truth and seeks new manna directly from God moment by moment. The Spirit really speaks!  :dsunny:

God bless you,

SeventhDay

Amen ! :dsunny:    Our personal   relationship  and walk in the Spirit is the most  precious thing  :HeartThrob:
God bless  those whom are looking   for  Him in Spirit and truth because He is seeking  such to worship Him .... 

[sheila]

 reading this thread....the instance of the angel that come to stir up the water in the pool come to my mind.  First ones in are healed.

   now,of coarse..some had not the ability to get in of themselves. John 9;7 and  John 5;1-9

[micah7:9]

John 5:3-- waiting for the moving of the water
John 5:4-- This entire verse.

These verses are considered spurious :Chinscratch:

[sheila]

...then why would Jesus say what He did in John 9;7?  Go and wash in the pool of Siloam[sent] and he did and come back seeing.

[micah7:9]

 :dontknow:

[sheila]

 they are uncovering that same pool now. Found it in 2005..say it is as large as two football fields.  has steps that lead up

  to the temple mount.  the 'virgin spring' fills it...[Gihon] and is the only fresh water source in Jerusalem.

....but...I am off topic. sorry.

[Lazarus Short]

The Cross would serve as a counterweight to sin weighing more than them and God would attribute it to us.

On the other hand, the ancient Egyptian belief was that the dead would enter the place of judgment, and have their hearts weighed against a feather.  If the heart outweighed the feather, the dead person went to the Eater of Souls.  With all the pagan gods, at least they believed in righteousness.  Happily, they were wrong, for even if your name is not in the Book of Life, you don't go to Hell, or get eaten, or annihilated, you just refined some more, and are then still saved.  :cloud9:

[marie glen]

I've come to believe ones name can be written in the book of life during judgment 'day'. The verse is the last verse of the chapter, and I've come to believe those still not believing (and thus cleaving to Him) at the end of that day will be the ones who go to the lake for further refining.

I hadn't known that about the verse "death and then the judgment" day, as being why it's taught reward or punishment at ones death.. But I can see how that happened.

I've always thought Jesus saying "you will die in your sins" to being misunderstood, as a forever thing.. no chance for change.. rather than simply seeing the 2nd resurrection as less joyful etc than the first (for a time anyway). I think of the resurrection of the not yet saved as those who arrive DOA, not as a way of taking it lightly, but because it reminds me of that middle fall holy day of repentance (between Trumpets and Tabernacles).

[Ross]

Imagine the scenario for those who died before Christ had been resurrected. All the old testament folks.
I.M.O this is the people referred to in the statement the last shall be first and first shall be last.
I.E  those after Christ are the last; those before Christ are the first.
Being resurrected without having known about Christ seems to be the need for a training program that will teach them.
So they seem to be  raised from the dead but still with a physical body; then they are corrected through the judgment process- then they will die the second death to receive the spiritual  body which is then eternal.
To me this make logical sense and explains the whole White throne of Judgement era- an unlimited time period.

[micah7:9]

 :Chinscratch: I guess I just don't understand the post "Eternal state at death?"

[marie glen]

..the belief that one's eternity begins at their death? whether it is 'heaven, hell or annihilation'. Each person's judgment 'day' is immediately after their death.. Which i am assuming requires also that when one dies, they are actually in an alternate state of life.. that it is only the body that dies, and the inner self carries on, and then immediately finds their self in either heaven or 'hell'..?

(sometimes I get the crazy idea that this is one of the differences between the offerings of Cain and Abel.. one worshiping YHWH and the other something like Gaia..?)

Imagine the scenario for those who died before Christ had been resurrected. All the old testament folks.
I.M.O this is the people referred to in the statement the last shall be first and first shall be last.
I.E  those after Christ are the last; those before Christ are the first.
Being resurrected without having known about Christ seems to be the need for a training program that will teach them.
So they seem to be  raised from the dead but still with a physical body; then they are corrected through the judgment process- then they will die the second death to receive the spiritual  body which is then eternal.
To me this make logical sense and explains the whole White throne of Judgement era- an unlimited time period.

   :Chinscratch: I've never really thought how those of the 2nd resurrection's bodies become "translated" into new bodies once they are written in the Lamb's Book of Life - I've assumed once one believes, pre or post death, they are written in the book -  and I've assumed the new body just happens... Perhaps the LOF and Day Of Judgment are concurrent? .. if so they must come out of the LOF before judgment day ends? according to how verse 14 and 15 are written?  :Chinscratch: :dontknow: I have to think about this some more.. and pray. :gsmile: Interesting to (prayerfully) ponder..