I often talk to "Christians" that are convinced that the eternal state of believers and unbelievers (yeah - the old heaven and hell thing) is fixed at the moment of death.
Where in scripture do they get this notion? When I tell them the bible never says your state is fixed at the moment of death they often go bonkers. Is it church tradition? Any insight would be helpful.
thanks,
hunger
surely church tradition, but also based on this scripture I think; "after death the judgment". I see that used as meaning "that's it, one place or the other forever, nothing else can or will be done" - when that's not literally what it says. I think assumptions are made (such as the "unpardonable" sin - which isn't what that scripture says either).
Quote from: HungerForTruth on August 24, 2015, 09:45:45 PM
I often talk to "Christians" that are convinced that the eternal state of believers and unbelievers (yeah - the old heaven and hell thing) is fixed at the moment of death.
Where in scripture do they get this notion? When I tell them the bible never says your state is fixed at the moment of death they often go bonkers. Is it church tradition? Any insight would be helpful.
thanks,
hunger
Martin Luther, as I see it, is largely responsible for this. When he was forced to leave the RC Church, a big part of the split was initially over the issue of people paying for indulgences for their beloved deceased family members. Luther wanted to do away with the notion that people could be bought out of purgatory. He did away with the Catholic notion of purgatory, thus, judgement upon death. He took some books out of the Bible, i.e., Macabees, which stated that the dead were prayed for. The Bible verse I was taught, as a Lutheran Deacon, to confirm this was as follows:
...26Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. Hebrews 9:26 -28 :declare:
As the leader of Church Reformation, Luther had a huge impact upon the Protestant theology. I know, as a Lutheran, though there is much room for dissent, this issue is usually very closed to discussion. Thus, this is a very strong Protestant tradition. Catholics believe in purgatory, so there is 'room for improvement' in their theology, although, in the Catholic Church, if you are destined for Hell, nothing can change that. I believe Orthodox theology is similar to that of Catholics, in this area, but not 100% sure.
So, yes, HungerforTruth........as we say in the Bronx.......Good Luck with that! :winkgrin:
Although, I once saw a quote attributed to Luther in a Christian Universalist article, about God chasing after us, even after death........I think I will explore it some more, and try to find the quote again. If I do, I will post it here.
D.
Thank both of you for your responses. Both are very helpful. The church I belong to and helped plant is very "Reformed". I think I will either have to keep quiet or leave. They are very well set in their "reformation" doctrines.
Good, ty.
I personally understand where they see election/pre-destination in the scriptures. I also believe it's there. IMO, though, they miss the "end-game", i.e., ultimate reconciliation of all (which of course is a HUGE missing piece). I used to be ignorant of election in the scriptures, for various reasons, but since God gave me a view of UR I've come to see it as the elect/pre-destined in this age, everyone else (the destined) in the next. I agree, it would be difficult to be too wrapped up in a eternal torment group. I had to totally pull out for awhile to gain perspective. Now I attend with my family once a week. There are still certain things I like about it, some of the basics. I'm not a "member" - fellowship with and 'amen' what I can, and peripherally observe the rest. :2c:
Natal astrology predicts your fate in life by the positions of the sun, moon, and planets at the moment of your birth. :doh:
Christian theology predicts your fate in death by your spiritual state at the moment of your death. :laugh:
Parallel thinking. :friendstu: :declare:
I also don't quite get where this is coming from. Before I entered christianity I thinK I always had this notion that after death I would go to God and get into a court session and that Jesus Christ would be my advocate there, like He would be the advocate of everyone really. The Cross would serve as a counterweight to sin weighing more than them and God would attribute it to us. Later I found that christianity believes you have to accept this Jesus and His Cross in life already if you want to apply for it, it would not be allowed to do so in Heaven.
Quote from: jabcat on August 25, 2015, 06:38:03 AM
Good, ty.
I personally understand where they see election/pre-destination in the scriptures. I also believe it's there. IMO, though, they miss the "end-game", i.e., ultimate reconciliation of all (which of course is a HUGE missing piece). I used to be ignorant of election in the scriptures, for various reasons, but since God gave me a view of UR I've come to see it as the elect/pre-destined in this age, everyone else (the destined) in the next. I agree, it would be difficult to be too wrapped up in a eternal torment group. I had to totally pull out for awhile to gain perspective. Now I attend with my family once a week. There are still certain things I like about it, some of the basics. I'm not a "member" - fellowship with and 'amen' what I can, and peripherally observe the rest. :2c:
Well put and I agree totally. Luckily - the preaching does not dwell on hell but when it comes up in a passage it is taught incorrectly of course. We teach books of the bible line by line.
What grieves me most is I see my son (who is an associate pastor at this church) beginning to adopt a "we are right - they are wrong" attitude concerning other views of scripture. I have come to realize we need to seek unity - fellowship around what we can. Dogma can be so divisive, and IMHO - that is what the world system wants - a divided church.
So with my son, I have taken the approach of talking about church history in general without "coming out" about UR - yet. His interest is sparked so he is starting to study the pre Augustine church, the Constantinople/Justinian eras and how and why the doctrine of "HELL" was developed. Trouble is - he is reading a multi volume set of "reformed" Church History with an obvious slant from what I have read in it.
Anyway - please pray for his enlightenment. :Pray:
it is the same as 'taking the name of the Lord in vain" One of His names is 'SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN"
The disciples[o'ye of little faith] thought not many would be saved...and Jesus stated 'what is impossible with men..is possible with God"
Quote from: Dandelion on August 25, 2015, 03:32:07 AM
Although, I once saw a quote attributed to Luther in a Christian Universalist article, about God chasing after us, even after death........I think I will explore it some more, and try to find the quote again. If I do, I will post it here.
D.
Here it is? http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/martin_luther_universalist.html
God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future. (Martin Luther's letter to Hans von Rechenberg, 1522.)
Quote from: jabcat on August 25, 2015, 12:19:11 AM
surely church tradition, but also based on this scripture I think; "after death the judgment". I see that used as meaning "that's it, one place or the other forever, nothing else can or will be done" - when that's not literally what it says. I think assumptions are made (such as the "unpardonable" sin - which isn't what that scripture says either).
Jesus in dying for our sins has buried the old man with Jesus in his death thus the old man dead in trespasses and sins is dead and if that old man is dead then what man is being judged? (1 Peter 4:17 ) (2Co 5:14)
God bless you,
SeventhDay
Me thinks, and this is just my opinion alone, you like to keep it stirred up, I, me personally get this from your posts. That is just me and I mean no offence. :Peace2:
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 24, 2015, 02:26:57 AM
Me thinks, and this is just my opinion alone, you like to keep it stirred up, I, me personally get this from your posts. That is just me and I mean no offence. :Peace2:
Of course I do! The truth should do that should it not? If God reveals something to you does it not stir you? What is the Spirit of conviction for if it does not stir us?
Do we have preconceptions? What happens if our preconceptions do not line up with the truth? What does the truth do to us if we hold unto our preconceptions or tradition? Either we through conviction are stirred up to change our thinking or we are stubborn and hold harder unto our preconceptions or tradition.
Now, Jesus saying stirred up his listeners and some repented and some remained stubborn.
God bless you,
SeventhDay
Quote from: HungerForTruth on August 25, 2015, 02:25:06 PM
Quote from: jabcat on August 25, 2015, 06:38:03 AM
Good, ty.
I personally understand where they see election/pre-destination in the scriptures. I also believe it's there. IMO, though, they miss the "end-game", i.e., ultimate reconciliation of all (which of course is a HUGE missing piece). I used to be ignorant of election in the scriptures, for various reasons, but since God gave me a view of UR I've come to see it as the elect/pre-destined in this age, everyone else (the destined) in the next. I agree, it would be difficult to be too wrapped up in a eternal torment group. I had to totally pull out for awhile to gain perspective. Now I attend with my family once a week. There are still certain things I like about it, some of the basics. I'm not a "member" - fellowship with and 'amen' what I can, and peripherally observe the rest. :2c:
Well put and I agree totally. Luckily - the preaching does not dwell on hell but when it comes up in a passage it is taught incorrectly of course. We teach books of the bible line by line.
What grieves me most is I see my son (who is an associate pastor at this church) beginning to adopt a "we are right - they are wrong" attitude concerning other views of scripture. I have come to realize we need to seek unity - fellowship around what we can. Dogma can be so divisive, and IMHO - that is what the world system wants - a divided church.
So with my son, I have taken the approach of talking about church history in general without "coming out" about UR - yet. His interest is sparked so he is starting to study the pre Augustine church, the Constantinople/Justinian eras and how and why the doctrine of "HELL" was developed. Trouble is - he is reading a multi volume set of "reformed" Church History with an obvious slant from what I have read in it.
Anyway - please pray for his enlightenment. :Pray:
I pray that your son has a hunger and love for the truth and seeks new manna directly from God moment by moment. The Spirit really speaks! :dsunny:
God bless you,
SeventhDay
Quote from: SevanthDay on November 24, 2015, 02:39:47 AM
Quote from: HungerForTruth on August 25, 2015, 02:25:06 PM
Quote from: jabcat on August 25, 2015, 06:38:03 AM
Good, ty.
I personally understand where they see election/pre-destination in the scriptures. I also believe it's there. IMO, though, they miss the "end-game", i.e., ultimate reconciliation of all (which of course is a HUGE missing piece). I used to be ignorant of election in the scriptures, for various reasons, but since God gave me a view of UR I've come to see it as the elect/pre-destined in this age, everyone else (the destined) in the next. I agree, it would be difficult to be too wrapped up in a eternal torment group. I had to totally pull out for awhile to gain perspective. Now I attend with my family once a week. There are still certain things I like about it, some of the basics. I'm not a "member" - fellowship with and 'amen' what I can, and peripherally observe the rest. :2c:
Well put and I agree totally. Luckily - the preaching does not dwell on hell but when it comes up in a passage it is taught incorrectly of course. We teach books of the bible line by line.
What grieves me most is I see my son (who is an associate pastor at this church) beginning to adopt a "we are right - they are wrong" attitude concerning other views of scripture. I have come to realize we need to seek unity - fellowship around what we can. Dogma can be so divisive, and IMHO - that is what the world system wants - a divided church.
So with my son, I have taken the approach of talking about church history in general without "coming out" about UR - yet. His interest is sparked so he is starting to study the pre Augustine church, the Constantinople/Justinian eras and how and why the doctrine of "HELL" was developed. Trouble is - he is reading a multi volume set of "reformed" Church History with an obvious slant from what I have read in it.
Anyway - please pray for his enlightenment. :Pray:
I pray that your son has a hunger and love for the truth and seeks new manna directly from God moment by moment. The Spirit really speaks! :dsunny:
God bless you,
SeventhDay
Amen ! :dsunny: Our personal relationship and walk in the Spirit is the most precious thing :HeartThrob:
God bless those whom are looking for Him in Spirit and truth because He is seeking such to worship Him ....
reading this thread....the instance of the angel that come to stir up the water in the pool come to my mind. First ones in are healed.
now,of coarse..some had not the ability to get in of themselves. John 9;7 and John 5;1-9
John 5:3-- waiting for the moving of the water
John 5:4-- This entire verse.
These verses are considered spurious :Chinscratch:
...then why would Jesus say what He did in John 9;7? Go and wash in the pool of Siloam[sent] and he did and come back seeing.
:dontknow:
they are uncovering that same pool now. Found it in 2005..say it is as large as two football fields. has steps that lead up
to the temple mount. the 'virgin spring' fills it...[Gihon] and is the only fresh water source in Jerusalem.
....but...I am off topic. sorry.
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on August 25, 2015, 08:52:14 AM
The Cross would serve as a counterweight to sin weighing more than them and God would attribute it to us.
On the other hand, the ancient Egyptian belief was that the dead would enter the place of judgment, and have their hearts weighed against a feather. If the heart outweighed the feather, the dead person went to the Eater of Souls. With all the pagan gods, at least they believed in righteousness. Happily, they were wrong, for even if your name is not in the Book of Life, you don't go to Hell, or get eaten, or annihilated, you just refined some more, and are then still saved. :cloud9:
I've come to believe ones name can be written in the book of life during judgment 'day'. The verse is the last verse of the chapter, and I've come to believe those still not believing (and thus cleaving to Him) at the end of that day will be the ones who go to the lake for further refining.
I hadn't known that about the verse "death and then the judgment" day, as being why it's taught reward or punishment at ones death.. But I can see how that happened.
I've always thought Jesus saying "you will die in your sins" to being misunderstood, as a forever thing.. no chance for change.. rather than simply seeing the 2nd resurrection as less joyful etc than the first (for a time anyway). I think of the resurrection of the not yet saved as those who arrive DOA, not as a way of taking it lightly, but because it reminds me of that middle fall holy day of repentance (between Trumpets and Tabernacles).
Imagine the scenario for those who died before Christ had been resurrected. All the old testament folks.
I.M.O this is the people referred to in the statement the last shall be first and first shall be last.
I.E those after Christ are the last; those before Christ are the first.
Being resurrected without having known about Christ seems to be the need for a training program that will teach them.
So they seem to be raised from the dead but still with a physical body; then they are corrected through the judgment process- then they will die the second death to receive the spiritual body which is then eternal.
To me this make logical sense and explains the whole White throne of Judgement era- an unlimited time period.
:Chinscratch: I guess I just don't understand the post "Eternal state at death?"
..the belief that one's eternity begins at their death? whether it is 'heaven, hell or annihilation'. Each person's judgment 'day' is immediately after their death.. Which i am assuming requires also that when one dies, they are actually in an alternate state of life.. that it is only the body that dies, and the inner self carries on, and then immediately finds their self in either heaven or 'hell'..?
(sometimes I get the
crazy idea that this is one of the differences between the offerings of Cain and Abel.. one worshiping YHWH and the other something like Gaia..?)
Quote from: Ross on November 25, 2015, 06:20:21 AM
Imagine the scenario for those who died before Christ had been resurrected. All the old testament folks.
I.M.O this is the people referred to in the statement the last shall be first and first shall be last.
I.E those after Christ are the last; those before Christ are the first.
Being resurrected without having known about Christ seems to be the need for a training program that will teach them.
So they seem to be raised from the dead but still with a physical body; then they are corrected through the judgment process- then they will die the second death to receive the spiritual body which is then eternal.
To me this make logical sense and explains the whole White throne of Judgement era- an unlimited time period.
:Chinscratch: I've never really thought how those of the 2nd resurrection's bodies become "translated" into new bodies once they are written in the Lamb's Book of Life - I've assumed once one believes, pre or post death, they are written in the book - and I've assumed the new body just happens... Perhaps the LOF and Day Of Judgment are concurrent? .. if so they must come out of the LOF before judgment day ends? according to how verse 14 and 15 are written? :Chinscratch: :dontknow: I have to think about this some more.. and pray. :gsmile: Interesting to (prayerfully) ponder..
Quote from: Ross on November 25, 2015, 06:20:21 AM
Imagine the scenario for those who died before Christ had been resurrected. All the old testament folks.
I.M.O this is the people referred to in the statement the last shall be first and first shall be last.
I.E those after Christ are the last; those before Christ are the first.
Being resurrected without having known about Christ seems to be the need for a training program that will teach them.
So they seem to be raised from the dead but still with a physical body; then they are corrected through the judgment process- then they will die the second death to receive the spiritual body which is then eternal.
To me this make logical sense and explains the whole White throne of Judgement era- an unlimited time period.
Well said! :dsunny:
God bless you,
SeventhDay
:cloud9: My :2c:......the soul stays trapped in whatever it did not overcome while still in a body. The spirit returns to the One who sent it. The RE-union of same is the resurrection from the dead. Both stay divided (a divided house cannot stand) because of sin. Should any besides Yeshua overcome while still in the body (and some WILL because He said they would), that is the resurrection Paul was talking about where he said he didn't desire to be unclothed (put off the body) but rather clothed upon, mortality swallowed up of immortality. Blessings....
:) My 1.5 cents
I know this is a more "traditional" view, and goes against the "immortality in this life/Jesus doesn't physically return, He rather returns in us" view, but up until now I just haven't been able to see compelling evidence to show me differently.
Seems to me everyone in this life dies physically, with the following exception. I do believe Paul looked forward to Christ's physical return in his lifetime (as apparently did all the apostles), so he wished that to occur instead of him having to die. Thus, there would/will be many alive and remaining when He returns. "Watch and pray for you know not the hour when the Son of man comes...with His angels..won't all sleep, trumpet sounds, changed in twinkling of an eye", etc.
Paul died. If he didn't achieve immortality in this life, I don't have a chance, and that's not what i personally strive for. I strive for obedience and closeness (and usually fail. His grace is sufficient). Everyone I've ever heard about, known, or read about died (possible exception the one translated [Enoch], but even that interpretation is debated).
I've gone back and forth between the 'eternal state' at death. I entertained the whole "soul sleep" idea, and can see some reasons why folks see it that way. I don't think it's as open and shut a case though as many contend. I tend to lean more toward "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". I remember Michelle Amirault trusting their son Scott being currently used in the kingdom, post earthly death. Also, not sure why we'd pray for deceased if something's not already happening with them, but that's just "thinking". That may call into question when each person's judgment is, etc., which is a bit over my head at present (although i believe believers' are MOSTLY already judged in Christ - and acquitted). Anyway, lots to know and consider (I do the 2nd part :). I obviously don't have it all figured out - some thoughts. Blessings.
David...a man after God's own heart...[type of Christ] BOUGHT THE GROUND...at the threshing floor...to stop the 3 days of
the death plague[redemption of your bodies/souls/spirit to return to God. sodom and gomorrah will return unto what they
were before.[whole restoration/outer/inner/HOH]
the sin of numbering Israel...........which satan incites to do in disobedience...is against the word of God to Abraham.....
and the promise of God to Abraham...with children/descendants so vast as the stars...that can Not be numbered or sands of the
sea that can NOT be numbered. ALL..if you 'number' those of the resurrection of men and redemption of their bodies/return of
their spirit unto God..as less then ALL men..then the death plague continues in your heavens and earth..and satan still reigns/loosed
and rules through sin and death in your old earth. albeit in your old heaven..
the potter's field...Jesus bought it for those poor in spirit,blind,naked[unclothed]=broken pot's..of which God has authority to remake
in incorruptible image/honour. Over coming is BY MY SPIRIT.....and in the last days I shall pour out my spirit upon all flesh
not many believe unto the salvation of the soul...[1st Adam become a living soul/last Adam a quickening spirit]
restoration is returning to the WHOLENESS[HOLINESS] that was lost.
yet...some will say...not all Israel is Israel........... Jesus tell's us what the 'not all" is....JOHN 13;10 speaking of the son of
perdition that goes into cutting off..of which Judas served as a type..of satn himself...that is the only one lost.......
the sons of God come to present themselves before the Lord[all] and satan entered in among them[not all]
THIS SALVATION..This restoration..this REDEMPTION AND BUYING BACK WHAT WAS LOST..is not dependant of Corrupt Adam
THANK GOD!!! It is ALL a work of His Hands. It is IMPOSSIBLE WITH MEN..for men are a divided house and can NOT stand.
Jesus said..'Destroy this temple[death plague] and I will raise it up in 3 days!!! do you not know your body is the temple of the Holy
spirit? HE BOUGHT THE THRESHING FLOOR AND STOPPED THE PLAGUE OF DEATH!!!!! the very place where God's temple is built.
Isaaih ch 14
:friendstu: Amen Sheila...... :iagree: Good word.... :banana:
Hi Sheila. Could you give me (a simpler folk) the Cliff Notes version of what you're saying? I.e., pull it together in a direct couple of line summary so I can tell if you're arguing with me or not? :laughing7: Or if you're totally just addressing the 'eternal state at death' issue, etc. I can surmise some things from your post, but I might be misunderstanding. Thanks. :)
:laugh: jab.smh I like your post!!!!! I am not arguing with you. lol! :friendstu:
all men will have a full first resurrection....Happy and Holy are those in the first resurrection[in Jesus Christ's image]
the spirit was always to return at death..unto God who gave it..but those who lost their souls will have them restored because
Jesus come to seek that which was lost;and the only one lost/typified as Judas/son of perdition/devil/ satan " have I not chose you
12,yet one of you is a devil?" what good is it to a man to gain the whole world and lose your soul?[all these kingdom's I will give to you
if you bow down and do one act of worship.] only soul lost and not restored is satan's
The body was redeemed..because the Greater David bought the land at the threshing floor..of
which God's temple is built on...and covered the cost himself..and the death plague was stopped. potter's field bought with His
blood[sweat].
and God has authority to make of the same lump[body of man] one vessel of wrath and one of honour.
hope this clarifies...Grand-daughter come in/distracted...and I've been reading up on world news after I wrote it..it is a whole
different frame of mind; things of the Lord/things of this world. :HeartThrob:
:high5:
Ephesians 2:6-7 -Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
6 and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,
7 that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,
If all at death 'go to heaven or hell', everything being finalized at each one's death - that He might show, in the ages that are coming - might show who? ...and why, if all is finalized at each person's death... some might think show those who survive on earth - but it says ages ...show who "the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus"?
And if it's grace, not earned... why so infinitely kind to few, yet infinitely unkind to so many others?? (I hate to even use the Word "unkind".. the Spirit in us, imo, rejects such a word to describe Him!!) ...show who? and why? (if all is final at each one's death...)
:Peace2: :gsmile: