I was talking to my Christian Universalist friend Larry, and they were showing me some Near Death Experiences (NDEs) that promote Christian Universalism. Everyone will become believers in Jesus Christ and all people will be permanently saved.
1 John 2:2 Jesus "is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."
This lead me to a realization. First, there?s the false doctrine of ?Eternal Conscious Torment? or more precisely named ?Forever Conscious Torment?. Because ?eternal? means aionios in Greek and olam in Hebrew which truly means ?pertaining to an age?. Literally, from an accurate translation of Biblical scripture. eternal never means forever. Hell is never forever. The term ?hell? doesn?t even show up in the Bible. There?s Sheol, which is realm of the dead, from Hebrew, where people go when they die. And all of Sheol will be emptied out.
EZEKIEL 18:23 Have I any desire, says the Lord God, for the death of a wicked man? Will I not rather that he should mend his ways and live?
So, using the precise name ?Forever Conscious Torment?, we can see that, in order for that to be true, the torment would need to be first ?conscious? and second ?forever?.
LAMENTATIONS 3:31-33 For men are not cast off by the Lord forever. Though he may punish cruelly, yet he will have compassion in the fullness of his love; he does not willingly afflict or punish any mortal man.
However, how conscious are people when they have an Near Death Experience? Some of them have a dream before they die, and then suddenly wake up and regain some sort of consciousness. So how much ?consciousness? would be required for it to be ?Conscious Torment?. This shows that Near Death Experience?s cannot show complete conscious torment, because a person would need to be fully conscious, and how can they be if sometimes it?s a dream, or a vision while asleep?
Acts 3:21 In Jesus Christ is "the restoration of ALL THINGS, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."
Alright, so instead of Forever Conscious Torment Near Death Experiences, now it?s just Forever Torment Near Death Experiences. Because you can be dreaming. But wait a minute! When someone falls asleep, they can wake up. They don?t dream ?forever?, since they?re alarm clock?s going to come off and wake them up, or maybe they?ll wake up on their own, that can be a bit tricky without an alarm lol.
Rev. 15:4 "ALL nations shall come and worship You, for your judgments have been made manifested."
But let?s say someone dreams for a long time. Maybe they?re on their death bed, and they are not conscious, just laying there, but they?re not awake. Maybe for a month? Let?s say. Then, the fundamental problem is? a month is not forever! A year is not forever! A day is not forever! A second is not forever! A minute is not forever! Forever would need to be? well? forever! Thus, it?s impossible for someone to have a Near Death Experience, a dream close to death, that lasts forever, because eventually you have people telling the stories who indeed woke up.
Psalm 86:9 "ALL nations whom God has made will come and worship before Him"
So? if someone woke up from a Near Death Experience and told others that it was Forever Torment? how do they know? They weren?t there ?forever? because they woke up! That?s how they?re able to tell others their story after all. Thus, it?s literally impossible for Forever Conscious Torment Near Death Experiences to even exist! Mathematically impossible. Statistically impossible. It logically doesn?t make any sense!
Heb. 8:11 "ALL shall know the Lord, from the least of them to the greatest of them."
And of course, not all Near Death Experience?s show torment, a lot of them show Jesus?s love for all of mankind. Christ saving everyone, so it?s more so proof for Christian Universalism.
Isaiah 40:5 "The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and ALL FLESH shall see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken."
Personally, when it comes to Near Death Experiences, I see them as oftentimes just dreams people have when they?re close to dying. Sometimes, dreams can reveal something that?s true. Othertimes, people dreaming of ECT might have just watched a scary movie close to bed time, or were already believers in the false doctrine of ECT and were biased to have a dream because of it. NDE?s can be subjective, emotional, variable.
Psalm 145:16 God will "open His hand and satisfy the desire of EVERY living thing."
So in general, for any NDE, it?s best to look at the Bible first as the primary authority, and then, with scripture verses, go back to the NDE and see if it lines up with God?s word. If it contradicts God?s word, then it?s not true. If a specific portion of a dream or NDE aligns itself with God?s word, then you?ll be more safe when trying to interpret it. Because the Bible never has any contradictions. All of the New Testament agrees with perfection to all the Old Testament. There?s no errors there. God?s word is always true!
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Other NDE?s might show the false doctrine of reincarnation, where you can lose your salvation, as opposed to the truth of resurrection, where once you are saved, you are always saved. Or a reincarnation that requires you to suffer multiple lives for some reason in order to be saved of your own works, which is false. Works salvation is false. Only faith alone in Jesus Christ saves us. When we are saved, the Holy Spirit comes inside of us, making our salvation permanent. Someone dies, they?re stuck in Sheol, the realm of the dead, and only belief in Christ Jesus can wash them from their wages of sin, which is death. That?s resurrection, the truth.
John 6:35 Jesus said to them, ?I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
First of all NDEs on both side of the spectrum may be right out lies to sell books.
I think people can always dream. Also when in very bad health. If you dream about your dog it's called a dream. But what if you dream about Jesus? Could be a real visit to heaven or just as well a dream. So some NDEs are honest mistakes.
Satan is known for trying steal everything God does and then give his own twist to it. Many Christians believe they can be filled with the HS, but often also believe can be possessed by bad spirits. If that's true then a fake hell dream would be possible I guess.
While I'm strongly believe in UR I do also believe God is no pushover and there will be some sort of correction, which I don't believe to be classic hell, neither do I believe it's a funny time.
Next take into consideration that God uses lots of symbiology. Jesus is neither lamb or lion. He's a human. Still He's compared to two animals.
Mankind is compared to wheat, trees, grass, flowers, gold, weeds, etc.
God's law is said to be fire.
I think a lot of spiritual things are totally beyond human comprehension. If you agree with all of that ask yourself this: Could NDEs be symbolic or parables too?
My view: https://radical-reaction.com/lol/index.html
:thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 26, 2023, 10:50:58 PM
First of all NDEs on both side of the spectrum may be right out lies to sell books.
While I'm strongly believe in UR I do also believe God is no pushover and there will be some sort of correction, which I don't believe to be classic hell, neither do I believe it's a funny time.
I think a lot of spiritual things are totally beyond human comprehension. If you agree with all of that ask yourself this: Could NDEs be symbolic or parables too?
Yes, I believe in general, it's better to use Bible verses to support points, whether ECT or UR, rather than NDEs. Though, I do think NDEs are interesting to talk about, some definitely can be influenced by outside factors, such as scary movies or personal experiences. And, yeah... unfortunately there are many people who spread lies for profit (Ex: the false religion Scientology)
I compare the feeling of correction to guilt. When someone does something bad, they feel bad. And the more bad things they did, the more they'll feel bad for everything. Eventually, that mental anguish of guilt will be washed away when they believe in Christ, but like you said... definitely not a fun time.
Interesting, I believe some NDEs could be symbolic or parables. Like someone in a metaphoric "Lake of fire" being alluded to the furnace of affliction from ISAIAH 48:10. I think we can only really confirm what they are after the fact, would be helpful for God to explain all of them... maybe put them through a lie detector test or something :winkgrin: