Okay, so my friend and I got in this argument yesterday about whether or not people get sent to Hell and if it was possible to have free will even if God only created human beings He knew would freely choose Him.
I argued that if God, being omniscient, knows what a person will choose when He creates them, and He knows they will choose to reject His son and so, using ET logic, go to Hell, then God chose for these people to go to Hell.
P1. God willfully creates human beings.
P2. God knows what any human being He creates will freely do.
P3. God willfully creates a human being that He knows will freely choose to reject His son and so, using ET logic, go to Hell.
Conclusion: So, God willfully creates people to go to Hell.
Does the conclusion follow from the premises? Or am I missing something?
Yeah, so,
ummm,
I guess you had an easy victory there.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 14, 2009, 06:46:45 AM
Yeah, so,
ummm,
I guess you had an easy victory there.
Haha! I wish! He kept saying that if God did not allow certain people to reject Him (as opposed to only creating people that would eventually willfully choose Him), then the people that chose Him did not really have free will. It drove me nuts! He also said that if had the choice on whether or not to have a son, knowing that if he had a son his son would go to Hell, he would still choose to have his son. I told him he was lying to himself (by ignoring his conscious).
Whether you believe in ET or not, choosing to have a son in such a case would be completely selfish and cruel. In fact, unimaginably cruel!!
P3: is incorrect.
Conclusion is incorrect.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 14, 2009, 06:58:17 AM
P3: is incorrect.
Conclusion is incorrect.
Well, I wouldn't say that he actually does this, but I'm making the argument from ET logic.
If there is free will its limited by all kind of things. Laws of nature (created by God) for example.
The free will to choose Jesus is much different for someone born in Iran or lets say in the Bible belt.
Lemme give a more direct example. Many Christians like orange juice. But how many would come along to drink a glass in a night club full of adultary? The orange juice there is just as good as anywhere. They won't go because they might get tempted etc. They used free will to avoid a spiritual dangerous situation.
Isn't being born in Iran an even more spiritual dangerious situation? The chances of being temped by islam by growing up in it are much much higher than entering that nightclub for a few hours with brain full of Bible verse.
Did the soul (=baby) choose(=free will) to be born in Iran where the hell ratio is almost 100%?
Some people are not as smart as other. Some are sceptical and test everything. Some are kind and trustful and believe many things (that are false)
Aspects of their personallity that are geneticly passed on from their parents. Or directly from God if you wish.
My whole point is that everyone gets the same choice. Jesus or satan. But the parameters to play by are vastly different.
I see it like this. At the White Throne Judgement people are split up in two groups. The people in group A get $1. The people in group B $get 999,999
Ok people I send you back to earth for a year group A to poor 3rd world country. Group B to country with a booming economy. Use your free will wisely because all those with less that $1 miljon will go to hell.
Did they have equally fair chance that their equally free will got them into Heaven?
To summarize:
In whatever gradation free will exists the parameters need to be the same for a fair test.
there is something I was going to post on the claim "people choose hell", a further insane argument in favor for the doctrine of everlasting torment.
I came across this quote in a forum:
"I just know that hell is real, and we have a choice as to whether or not we go there. What would really be cruel is for there NOT to be a choice."
I hope the poster is not offended, if he will read that I used this quote.
Think about these words, would it be cruel if there were no choice between everlasting bliss and everlasting suffering? Why would it be cruel? Who would choose everlasting torment rather than everlasting bliss, if he had actually a choice?
I will show where this argument lacks, both rational and scriptural:
They say, who refuses to believe in Jesus chooses willfully hell, and with hell they mean a place or state of everlasting conscious torment. This argument might halfway, though not at all fit on professed atheists, antichrists, Satanists but it doesn't fit e.g. on Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Agnostics and members of other religions.
Sincere Jews and Muslims might live a more pious life than many who profess to be Christians; they might love "their God" more than many Christians love God. According to mainstream Evangelical doctrine they will be sent to hell together with the Satanists.
The Muslim did not choose hell, he thought he would go to paradise and get 70 virgins, and if there were such a big choice, why should God at least not grant him the 70 virgins? According to the bible a woman can be bitterer than death (Ecclesiastes 7:26), then how much more 70 women? (Please forgive my cynicism).
The Jew as well did not choose hell, he thought he would spend eternity with the God of his fathers, with the prophets and with Abraham, but they say he willfully choose hell, but did he? – For me the answer is clear.
Concerning agnostics, esoterics or humanists, some of them just do not believe in a God at all, at least not in a personal God, but some secular people or esoterics believe in an afterlife, they hope to see their relatives after death etc.; you can't (willfully) choose hell, when you do not believe in hell or in a God who is going to send people there.
The humanist who tried to live a moral life according to his own moral conscience did not choose to suffer everlastingly hereafter. People who commit suicide did not choose to suffer hereafter without end - even worse than they did here.
To claim people willfully choose to suffer everlastingly is ridiculous and insane, well there might be Satanists and masochists who actually would willfully choose hell, but here comes the question, why should God grant their wish? Would God keep Satanists everlastingly alive suffering according to their wish while they blaspheme Him throughout all eternity?
These thoughts and claims, when thought to the end are grotesque, blasphemous and devilish.
And why the choice between heaven and hell and not between live and death?
Those who call themselves Christians often contrast heaven and hell, but the bible does this very rarely, not more than a handful of verses and only sheol and heaven.
Job 11:8 is the only verse where heaven and sheol are directly contrasted:
It is as the heights of heaven; what wilt thou do? deeper than Sheol; what canst thou know?
But sheol is not the type of hell as modern Christianity says:
1 Samuel 2:6
Jehovah killeth, and maketh alive; he bringeth down to Sheol, and bringeth up.
Scripture more often contrasts heaven and earth, life and death.
Deuteronomy 30:15-19
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil, in that I command thee this day to love Jehovah thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his ordinances, that thou mayest live and multiply, and that Jehovah thy God may bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thy heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and thou shalt bow down to other gods and serve them; I denounce unto you this day that ye shall surely perish; ye shall not prolong your days upon the land whereunto thou passest over the Jordan to possess it. I call heaven and earth to witness this day against you: life and death have I set before you, blessing and cursing: choose then life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed.
Now if there would actually be a choice, why not the choice between life and death?
The bible does not teach the inherent immortality of men's soul or spirit, if God would grant men their choices why should He not grant them the choice of death if they want, why only the choice between heaven and hell, why not the choice between heaven, hell and death?
Why should the possibility to choose cease with death? If God respects the will of men, why no longer after death, if men can choose and God grants their wish, why should the people in heaven afterwards not have the choice to choose hell, if they see all their friends have chosen hell, why should the people in hell no longer have the choice to choose heaven?; to have a fair choice, you need to know all possibilities; and why should the people both in heaven and hell not have the choice to choose death, if they don't like both?
I think I have shown that the idea that people choose hell is preposterous, if there would be a choice, the choice would be life and death according to God's words in the Torah.
If there is actually a choice would be another topic; "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,..." (John 15:16).
Does God send people to Hell?
Yes, but it's a round trip ticket :Sparkletooth:
If hell did exist, then what Tim B has posted in this thread is the same conclusion I would have come to myself, fortunately I find the arguments for conditional mortality and universalism to be much more convincing than the ones made for hell
From the site God's plan for all Calvinism, Arminianism, and Universalism (http://www.godsplanforall.com/site/1351515/page/686544)
I was thinking about this more today and have come to the same conclusion, but hopefully, in a more clear way of example.
Imagine this:
I have a friend. I can see his future, and I know that if I knock him out and put him in a crack house, he will become addicted to drugs and five years down the road be thrown in jail for illegal activities. Was it my fault or my friend's fault that he wound up in jail? Orthodox Christians would like to suggest that it's my friend's fault. But in all reality, I gave him no choice, because I knocked him out, and purposely put him in a position I KNEW would end up putting him in jail. So I am truly the one to blame. If I didn't know that this would happen, perhaps, I could be let off. But knowing ahead of time what my friend would choose to do if I put him in such a position, his demise completely falls on myself.
This I believe is the same with God. If people go to the orthodox Hell, then God made them go there.
BTW, Sven, excellent post!! I very much like your thoughts behind people really not choosing Hell. I've been on other forums and the atheists very clearly believe they do not choose to go to Hell. As you've pointed out, how could they if they don't believe in it??
Quote from: Tim B on June 14, 2009, 10:06:32 PM
I was thinking about this more today
Got a headache now? :doh:
QuoteI have a friend. I can see his future, and I know that if I knock him out and put him in a crack house, he will become addicted to drugs and five years down the road be thrown in jail for illegal activities. Was it my fault or my friend's fault that he wound up in jail?
.....
This I believe is the same with God. If people go to the orthodox Hell, then God made them go there.
But still that's exactly what God does imo. Not the orthodox hell but still hell. As in LoF.
Some people come to God/Christianity at a young age. So don't come to God at all in this lifetime.
So they are predistined for a longer cleaning session.
I try to step of this little fact, but can't shake the feeling it's unfair...?
The issue to me is in what manner is God the cause.
Is God the cause in the sense that is what he chose to do, even if he could of done it another way. I realize that in one sense all being saved seems to lessen the moral aspect of dragging us all through a sh$% pile to get there. But then if God can absolutely do anything then he can be all in all without the sh$% pile, right?
Some get offended because people dare to question how God would do something.
Well, yes, Lets see here, try this on. I need you to get across this hole and if I do not a terrible fate awaits you, you know of this terrible fate and rely on me to get you across. I have the power of deciding on several different ways. So, it is a fact that I could lift you up and jump across the hole and now your safe and sound.
Instead, I grab a baseball bat and pop you in the head and you flip right on over the hole, and you know I didn't have to do it that way.
Will you ever love me, or will you simply accept that you have no choice if you feel the fate I keep saving you from is just worse. And despite that on what level can it be said that I am righteous?
It is one of the reasons so many people try to say they see the greatness of God, but whirl around all the reasons that hinder seeing it.
If I try to imply that God cannot do absolutely anything I'd imagine if some could, they would have God strike me down to teach me a lesson.
But I make none of this up, it is the reality of a God who will grieve as we do in the same way we will grieve for our child when there is a good lesson they learn when the means that they might learn it is entirely out of our control. If we had the power to teach them another way, would we not do so, if we knew absolutely they would learn the same thing?
Of course we would.
1C 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 14, 2009, 11:21:16 PM
But still that's exactly what God does imo. Not the orthodox hell but still hell. As in LoF.
Some people come to God/Christianity at a young age. So don't come to God at all in this lifetime.
So they are predistined for a longer cleaning session.
I try to step of this little fact, but can't shake the feeling it's unfair...?
Thats where the Calvinists have at least something right, and they would point to Romans 9:20-21 and say "what right do we have to question God's wisdom?" He makes some for honor and some for dishonor - some come to Christ at a young age and some won't learn until they go into the lake of fire.
Is that unfair? Perhaps it seems that way to us. But again, we don't know exactly what the lake of fire will be. Scripture seems to point to it being the elect body of Christ - teaching and judging the world. What will those judgments be exactly? We don't know, but they will righteous.
Its hard for us to grasp. But at least without the ET view we know all we be treated equally IN THE END.
And how do we know exactly whether one person's torment is greater than another's? We don't know what people feel who appear to have the happiest of lives - they may be feeling inner torment more than we can imagine. Everyone must go through the purging fire. That is the great equalizer.
Everyone goes through it.
If I am elect and don't have to go through the lake of fire - did I get off "easy"? I'm not so sure. Only God knows every interaction and interworking of chastisement and judgment in this life and in the lake of fire.
Just some random thoughts...
great post legoman :thumbsup: you and WW ,really blessed my soul to hear :icon_flower:
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
Thanks rosered, you touch my heart with your response!
Regarding Isa 33:14 ... is that refering to the elect?
Who shall dwell with the devouring fire? The ELECT is the devouring fire?
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 14, 2009, 11:21:16 PM
Quote from: Tim B on June 14, 2009, 10:06:32 PM
I was thinking about this more today
Got a headache now? :doh:
QuoteI have a friend. I can see his future, and I know that if I knock him out and put him in a crack house, he will become addicted to drugs and five years down the road be thrown in jail for illegal activities. Was it my fault or my friend's fault that he wound up in jail?
.....
This I believe is the same with God. If people go to the orthodox Hell, then God made them go there.
But still that's exactly what God does imo. Not the orthodox hell but still hell. As in LoF.
Some people come to God/Christianity at a young age. So don't come to God at all in this lifetime.
So they are predistined for a longer cleaning session.
I try to step of this little fact, but can't shake the feeling it's unfair...?
I'm not so much denying that God in fact does this, that is, chooses people's fates. But to suggest that he then sends some of them to Hell for all eternity, or chooses to annihilate them is completely ridiculous and sick, sick, sick!
If Romans 11:32 makes anything clear it's this: he put us all through this mess of a world so he could show all of us mercy afterwards. I think it's too make his perfection and our enjoyment even more enjoyable on the other side. At least, that's how I like to look at it. :bigGrin:
Quote from: legoman on June 15, 2009, 05:04:25 AM
Thanks rosered, you touch my heart with your response!
Regarding Isa 33:14 ... is that refering to the elect?
Who shall dwell with the devouring fire? The ELECT is the devouring fire?
Hi Bro ,
you know God makes his ministers a fire
so to me it is very possible Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Hbr 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son [he saith],
Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. I would like to think that it is the Head and body of Christ
he is described in Daniel and Rev and I believe Ezk , not sure ? looked it up here .........
as eyes of fire and body of beryl
when it come to the LOF is do believe it is a body of many peoples / voices spiritually speaking
just as the voice of many waters means many people '' the sea that gives up the dead ''that is no more :icon_flower:
Dan 7:10
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 10:6 His body also [was] like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass,
and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude. And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and
his voice as the sound of many waters. Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword:
and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength. Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
sounds like a fire/body to me if it be the Lake of fire I am not sure but when Jesus who turns over the Kingdom to the Father and God be all in all God is a consuming Fire makes me think ya know it sure is possible with God :HeartThrob:
love these verses Then [cometh]
the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Cr 15:26
The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. 1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Cr 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Quote from: legoman on June 15, 2009, 04:25:59 AM
Thats where the Calvinists have at least something right,
Their election idea is correct. But their believe in eternal tortuture forced them to write slander about God.
Quoteand they would point to Romans 9:20-21 and say "what right do we have to question God's wisdom?" He makes some for honor and some for dishonor - some come to Christ at a young age and some won't learn until they go into the lake of fire.
A fool can ask more than then wise man can answer...
I don't question His wisdom but I do question some of His ways.... :sigh:
QuoteIs that unfair? Perhaps it seems that way to us. But again, we don't know exactly what the lake of fire will be.
I guess Jesus has some insight in what the fire is. He warned us to avoid it...
QuoteScripture seems to point to it being the elect body of Christ - teaching and judging the world. What will those judgments be exactly? We don't know, but they will righteous.
No problem there.
QuoteIts hard for us to grasp. But at least without the ET view we know all we be treated equally IN THE END.
Same end different beginning is not equal.
A
Quotend how do we know exactly whether one person's torment is greater than another's? We don't know what people feel who appear to have the happiest of lives - they may be feeling inner torment more than we can imagine. Everyone must go through the purging fire. That is the great equalizer. Everyone goes through it.
Surely I can't see the details in someones mind but I think it's safe to conclude that the kids in India that search for stuff on the city dumps to make a 'living' are most likely not as happy as many kids that grow up in richer enviorments.
QuoteIf I am elect and don't have to go through the lake of fire - did I get off "easy"? I'm not so sure. Only God knows every interaction and interworking of chastisement and judgment in this life and in the lake of fire.
I think you get of easy.
Just think of all the Jews that got kicked in freight trained to be killed at the end of the ride by some 'people' with a smile on their face.
Is that equal? I can only be equal is if after LoF ended everyone was for example equally hungry and sick for an equal time.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 15, 2009, 01:54:58 AM
But I make none of this up, it is the reality of a God who will grieve as we do in the same way we will grieve for our child when there is a good lesson they learn when the means that they might learn it is entirely out of our control. If we had the power to teach them another way, would we not do so, if we knew absolutely they would learn the same thing?
You have limited (teaching) abilities. God doesn't have that excuse.
God has the ability to create 10 billions saints or 10 billion sinners. He has the ability to totally bypass the plan of the ages.
The God wants to teach like a Father doesn't really stick with me.
Indeed it does take a parent with limited skills many years to properly raise a child.
But shouldn't it only take a microsecond for limitless parent God?
So basicly I never heard/read. the slightest proof that God has to do what He is doing.
The "He must teach" argument is just as much human-made than people must burn to increase His glory.... :sigh:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 15, 2009, 09:28:45 AMSo basicly I never heard/read. the slightest proof that God has to do what He is doing.
The "He must teach" argument is just as much human-made than people must burn to increase His glory.... :sigh:
Yup! :goodpost:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 15, 2009, 09:21:32 AM
Surely I can't see the details in someones mind but I think it's safe to conclude that the kids in India that search for stuff on the city dumps to make a 'living' are most likely not as happy as many kids that grow up in richer enviorments.
QuoteIf I am elect and don't have to go through the lake of fire - did I get off "easy"? I'm not so sure. Only God knows every interaction and interworking of chastisement and judgment in this life and in the lake of fire.
I think you get of easy.
Just think of all the Jews that got kicked in freight trained to be killed at the end of the ride by some 'people' with a smile on their face.
Is that equal? I can only be equal is if after LoF ended everyone was for example equally hungry and sick for an equal time.
Not necessarily equal in being equally hungry and sick for an equal time. But perhaps equal in gaining an equal understanding of good and evil.
As for the kids in India vs some rich kid in elsewhere... only God knows and can "measure" their happiness/sadness level. There are a lot of rich kids who are brats and put themselves through their own type of "torment".
Sure you can compare a rich kid vs a starving child in Africa, but again we don't know each person's true feelings. And I'm sure God can equal it all out in the lake of fire.
But we are making an assumption that God has to equal things out completely. The only thing that must be equal is the final end result - all will be obedient and in submission to God, and all will have a (complete) knowledge of good and evil so they will know how to be righteous and loving.
In the grand scheme of things, so what if one person had a few extra years of torment in this life... compared to an eternity of love and righteousness, what does that matter?
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 15, 2009, 09:28:45 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 15, 2009, 01:54:58 AM
But I make none of this up, it is the reality of a God who will grieve as we do in the same way we will grieve for our child when there is a good lesson they learn when the means that they might learn it is entirely out of our control. If we had the power to teach them another way, would we not do so, if we knew absolutely they would learn the same thing?
You have limited (teaching) abilities. God doesn't have that excuse.
God has the ability to create 10 billions saints or 10 billion sinners. He has the ability to totally bypass the plan of the ages.
The God wants to teach like a Father doesn't really stick with me.
Indeed it does take a parent with limited skills many years to properly raise a child.
But shouldn't it only take a microsecond for limitless parent God?
So basicly I never heard/read. the slightest proof that God has to do what He is doing.
The "He must teach" argument is just as much human-made than people must burn to increase His glory.... :sigh:
Another way to say what you are saying (I think):
Why doesn't God just make us all righteous in the first place?
The answer:
Maybe He is?
Being righteous requires EXPERIENCE. This life is just to give us experience - which requires time and trials. Our life is but a vapor. But from our perspective it seems like a really long 70-90 years.
When its all said and done, we will understand why God did it this way.
Quote from: legoman on June 15, 2009, 04:30:18 PM
Another way to say what you are saying (I think):
Why doesn't God just make us all righteous in the first place?
Correct.
QuoteThe answer:
Maybe He is?
Righteous people need no teachers like Jesus. Neither do they need judment.
QuoteBeing righteous requires EXPERIENCE. This life is just to give us experience - which requires time and trials. Our life is but a vapor. But from our perspective it seems like a really long 70-90 years.
So it's impossible for God to create people that are rightous from the start and always stay that way?
Sounds like you found a limit in God unlimited power...
Got made a choice. That's different from "it's the only way"
Why does water boil at 100 Celcius and not at 10000 Celcius? Why is gold heavier than water? Yes you can find many physics books explaining it's the laws of nature. But who made the laws....
QuoteWhen its all said and done, we will understand why God did it this way.
That answer won't do when I'm in Berean mode :laughing7:
Quote from: legoman on June 15, 2009, 04:30:18 PM
Why doesn't God just make us all righteous in the first place?
The answer:
Maybe He is?
Being righteous requires EXPERIENCE.
That is the issue, we are taught with the phrases God is all powerful, God is limitless, all things are possible, so why then being created by a God under those terms is that required? No limits would imply that it is not required.
OK you guys are going beyond me here... but I will try to explain it a bit further
You seem to be suggesting God could have done it any way, just made us all righteous in an instant or whatever, so why did He do it the way He did? Why bother making us live for 70 or X number of years, when He could have just zapped us into "righteousness" instead?
And my point is, maybe He is just "zapping us into righteousness", but from our perspective, it seems to take 70 or X number of years (a lifetime).
Could God have done it another way? Probably, but apparent this was the best way. That is the limiting factor.
Do it the best way or some other way. So I suppose God is "limited" in that sense because He chose to do it the best way.
Quote from: legoman on June 15, 2009, 05:05:28 PM
So I suppose God is "limited" in that sense because He chose to do it the best way.
And thats where I believe the key is to seeing Gods righteousness. It is seeing the reason God bears our pain with us. It is his knowledge of the only way it can be will be understood, realizing the path to glory was indeed a gift after all.
This may be too off topic, but I see some relevance; in the whole scheme of does God create and send people to hell.
The idea of "God" out there, taking/sending me a human through "fire" is one interpretation.
But what about an inward approach? What if the scripture is a symbol of the process of "consciousness evolution", occuring within.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7
Who is this "I" that creates these things/experiences in "us"? And who is the receiver of these experiences. Who is the "subject" and who is the "object"
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Who is Adam, in us? Who is Eve? Who is the serpent??
Are we Holograph's of God??
why wasnt' Adam deceived??
A friend of mine wrote this on another forum, and I want to share. The idea, is that we are "co-creators" with God.
"I will venture to say then, that on a parabolic level I see Eve as that part of our mind which contains the womb or birthing place of thought....an idea that begins to conceptualized...this takes place in the conscious mind (as I understand it scientifically)
I see Adam as that deeper part of our mind, the subconscious which is "the knowing"....
Now from what I understand, the subconscious does not rationalize...it takes what is given to it after it has been filtered through the conscious mind....it doesn't question what it is given...
".... she (the conscious mind) took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband (the subconscious mind) who was with her, and he ate. Gen 3:6
he doesn't question, Adam just takes what Eve gives her and eats...
Now, if then in a symbolic way we can see Eve as the conscious mind we can begin to see why it is that she was deceived, yet Adam was not...
the conscious mind takes in information according to the senses (serpent)...it then formulates beliefs, ideas, thoughts according to those senses....the conscious mind is prone to allowing the physical world determine what is truth...
the subconscious mind, I believe, has a sense of being and knowing that is deeply connected to spirit...it (adam) is the witness to the conscious mind (eve)...it (adam) doesn't judge one way or the other, but experiences and co-operates along with the conscious mind (eve) according to what the conscious mind believes....
this is why I see that the serpent spoke specifically with Eve...she is the only one who is able to take in information according to the senses...she is the "filter" so to speak...
the serpent is said to be "subtle"....meaning shrewd, sensible, prudent
sensible means: Capable of being perceived by the senses
prudent means: Sagacious (of quick sense perceptions) in adapting means to ends; circumspect (to look about one's self) in action
this all has to do with the senses....by which we experience the outside world...
and isn't it the senses which beguile us?? isn't it the senses which tempt us? which trigger the lusts within our own flesh...
eg...you're on a diet but you smell that yummy pizza which tastes so good but which you don't need for nutrition because you just ate a healthy salad...your senses trick you into eating it...
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:14
what I am saying here is that the subconscious cannot be tempted or deceived because it simply takes in that which it is given...
there are many who believe that the subconscious has the faith of a child...it goes along with whatever you tell it....and therein lies the rub...tell it lies, it goes along with the lies and so man, who houses both the conscious and subconscious, experiences the consequences of whatever his conscious mind feeds to his subconscious....
I (the subconcious mind) form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7
Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
(oh boy, if we could only get our conscious minds to shut up... )
I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
(if we would stop allowing the physical sensual world to teach the conscious mind of truth we would not be feeding the subconscious mind with the forbidden fruit of duality....to be still and know that I God...to stop being a slave to our thoughts which have previously taken authority over us, we in Christ are to take authority over our thoughts...)
For Adam (the subconscious where the essence of being resides) was formed first,
then Eve (the conscious mind where thoughts are formed and through which ideas spring forth into the physical world);
and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
Yet she will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
1 Timothy 2:11-15
this childbearing I believe to be the birth of thought in the womb of the conscious mind which manifests into expression...this is where we are to be "self-controlled" and thinking thoughts of faith, love and holiness...
the subconscious and conscious cannot be separated and one depends on the other just as in a true marraige...
so as any true husband should, adam (the subconscious) supports his wife (the conscious) in whatever she believes, and in fact does everything he can to fulfill her desires...whether they be productive or non-productive
so what I see is that, when the conscious mind begins to perceive the illusionary element to the physical world, and that what is going on in our minds is being projected outwards, we begin to take care of what we are birthing/thinking....if we can be saved through childbearing...we can be saved through changing our minds, (repenting) and through birthing Christed thoughts into the world rather than the thoughts seeded by the serpent (thoughts seeded by the sensual temptations of the physical world)....
interestingly "cherub" means imaginary thing and in fact there is some indication in the Hebrew traditions that it is connected to the serpent....could this then be connected to "vain imaginations"....if the cherubs are guarding eden, we could say our vain imaginations are guarding us from achieving that higher state of consciousness which is eden....
in my study of "image and likeness of God" months ago I saw that in one sense what we see when we look at ourselves is imaginary...a phantam, an illusion....only an "image" of Elohim...the essense of who we are lies not in what we can perceive with the senses, but is deeper....the essence of who we are lies in the subconscious...the witness, the knowing....and this cannot be deceived...it has known throughout the ages the truth, though hidden...and the experience of the conscious mind serves to lead man back to this deeper knowing that Laren pointed out...
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God (the subconscious part of our minds), they (the conscious part of our minds) glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
so as Laren showed the "knowing God" comes first...that's Adam, the subconscious....then the conscious mind is deceived by the senses, turns the truth of God into a lie...takes God who is within and perceives Him as without....and the subconscious supports this belief to the extent that man ACTS out in this way....
what if the conscious mind is personified as the "Lord"...and what if in conjunction to that, the subconscious contains the I AM essence...then wouldn't so many verses make more sense with regards to the Lord commanding deaths of woman and children, sending evil spirits, creating calamity....isn't it man, deceived of our essence, creating the chaos in the world through the thoughts we birth in our conscious mind???
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD (in the conscious mind) do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7
but in the subconscious, there is no duality, no turning of shadow, no deception....everything is what it is....everything is witnessed and experienced...and somewhere along the way the woman (the conscious mind) gets tired of playing the harlot with the world, turns within to see her true husband who has been there all along unperceived by the veil between the subconscious and the conscious in the marriage chamber (man's head), merges and mates with him and begins to birth that which will save her....thoughts that have been taken captive to Christ...."
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Our subconcious mind, the "earth without form", void, that creatively brings forth good/evil; based on what we believe.
Be transformed by renewing of mind. Taking every thot captive, and cassting down imaginations.
Hope this wasn't too far off topic.
That was great Zeek I gotcha :thumbsup:
I also see that as God making Himself TRUE and every man a liar
his curse was on the ground in adam and in adam/man/flesh all die
eve/ being decieved the inward part of adam saved in child bearing
and the cursed serpent to eat that dust/flesh /death
something that is cursed is despised and unfruitful though it attempts to be fruitful and fails over and over again [vanity]
:icon_flower: rose
Zeek, religious people really critisized the song that had the words "what if God was one of us" and to be honest, I never paid a whole lot of attention to the songs popularity or all the the lyrics.
But that phrase struck a cord in me as I was working through all the religious persuasions that people try to adhere to and some I practiced but did not really believe in my heart.
Of course I have no idea of the intent of the song writer or anything like that, but there is a lot in scripture that echos that.
We are on this Journey with God, he created us in his image, because thats what creation does, he greives along with us as he would the butterfly knowing the beauty that is to come, that could happen no other way.
Thats the beauty of God and spirituality and love, the unity of it all.
I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God (I AM) who causes the growth.
1 Corinthians 3:6-7
So who is the "I" (paul), Appolos, and God?
more from my friend on the other forum:
"Now here's what's interesting...the I here is Paul, and the name Paul means "little" and the name Apollos means "destroyer"...
isn't it interesting that the "destroyer" should be doing the watering??...it only serves to show further that what we have thought of as "evil and bad" actually serves an important function in humanity psychologically evolving to a higher dimension of thinking and creating....all of the beliefs and facts that thus far we have surmised from the outer world and have used to define ourselves are also the very things that eventually "destroy" our old self concept...that old self concept becomes then the "manure" for the growth of the new self concept which I believe is a conscious awareness of the true self: the I AM
Paul represents the "little me" which is an illusion or reflection of the imaginary world created by the little me and defined (watered) by the destroyer (super ego)...the bigger me is the I AM...
this is why I have seen the components of the serpent (destroyer) and Eve (little me) as all variations of our psyche...now when we are lost in defining ourselves through little me or the destroyer me we are "yet carnal"...we have not woken up to the fact that these are not who we truly are...we are the I AM....
I like to see it as we play all these various parts and they lead us to the director/author of it all....the I AM within....the parts themselves are just imaginative characters designed to tell a story...but they are not that which created/imagined the story....the characters are "sent" to tell a story, but they are not greater than He who sent them...yet they are one...one within the mind of man...the Father and I are one, yet the Father is greater than me....
so as long as we identify ourselves with the ego or superego we are yet carnal...
For while one says, I am of Paul (I am little me); and another, I am of Apollos (I am the destroyer); are you not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom you believed, even as the Lord gave to each?
1 Corinthians 3:4-5
So he planting, and he watering, are one, and each one shall receive his own reward according to his own labor.
1 Corinthians 3:8
the planter, the little me that reasons with the conscious mind according to the senses (the destroyer/deceiver) is rewarded according to the senses....we believe what we see, we see what we believe....
you cannot separate the planter from the waterer...you really cannot separate Eve from the serpent either...
as Amie pointed out "naked" is rooted in the word for "cunning"....when God clothed Adam and Eve with animal parts the true creative power of their "private chambers" was veiled/shrouded....and the creative imaginative world of the human mind became mystified...the mystery hidden through the ages....the deeper bigger me...I AM sleeping/hiding in the skull (Golgotha) of man....man thinks his animal nature is that which sits in the temple claiming to be God....but the sensory/animal nature is not God...it is that which has been sent by God to tell a story...
man imagines (plants and waters) and God (I AM) is causing the growth...as a man thinks, so is he....to the froward He shows Himself to be froward, to the pure He shows Himself to be pure....
but when man thinks that it was the ego/superego that accomplished something he is giving worship to the created, not the Creator (I AM)...
I am seeing man's imagination as that which funnels the creative power...in your audio Amie you said something like: God subjected Adam and Eve to independent thought....
and here's what happened: Because, knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, neither were thankful. But they became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Romans 1:21
vain also means "to make empty" and "idolatrous"...when we give power to that which is created we are worshipping idols....whether we perceive something as bad or good, if we do not see that the source of what we see comes from within than we are imagining in vain...imagining in spirit from the source of I AM is creativity at its best...and this source is Love....
Love lies sleeping behind every creative act...when love awakens in the creative act, God is glorified...
I believe there is a strong connection with the sleeping of Adam to the crucifying of Jesus....I am seeing the crucifixion as where Genesis begins...
God dying/sleeping in man (the tomb)....human history is the expression of God awakening and rolling away the stone (ego + superego)...in three days I shall be perfected...for three days in the HEART (mind) of the earth (man)...
I AM is creating a new thing on the earth: a woman encircles a man...
the resurrected man is God (I AM) in harmony, unveiled and married to the conscious mind which manifests into form...a natural body becomes a spiritual BODY....love swallows up death...."
The power of life and death is in the tongue. Choose this day, life or death. As a man thinketh, so is he. Awake oh sleeper, NOW is the day of salvation.
Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
:goodpost: wow ! :icon_flower: good friend
I have studied them verses berfore
and this has been made more clear than i could ever hope for ... :HeartThrob: very encouraging ......
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 15, 2009, 06:32:46 PM
Zeek, religious people really critisized the song that had the words "what if God was one of us" and to be honest, I never paid a whole lot of attention to the songs popularity or all the the lyrics.
But that phrase struck a cord in me as I was working through all the religious persuasions that people try to adhere to and some I practiced but did not really believe in my heart.
Of course I have no idea of the intent of the song writer or anything like that, but there is a lot in scripture that echos that.
We are on this Journey with God, he created us in his image, because thats what creation does, he greives along with us as he would the butterfly knowing the beauty that is to come, that could happen no other way.
Thats the beauty of God and spirituality and love, the unity of it all.
If God had a name
What would it be, and would you call it to his face
If you were faced with him and all his glory
What would you ask if you had just one question?
Yeah, yeah- God is great
Yeah, yeah- God is good
Yeah, yeah- Yeah (x3)
CHORUS
What if God was one us
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on a bus, trying to make his way home..
If God had a face
What would it look like and would you want to see
If seeing meant that you would have to belive
In things like heaven and in Jesus and the Saints, and all the Prophets and..
Yeah, yeah- God is great
Yeah, yeah- God is good
Yeah, yeah- Yeah (x3)
CHORUS
What if God was one of us
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on a bus, trying to make his way home
Trying to make his way home
Back up to heaven all alone..
Nobody callin' on the phone
'Cept for the Pope maybe in Rome...
Yeah, yeah- God is great
Yeah, yeah- God is good
Yeah, yeah- Yeah (x3)
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. --Mat 25
:thumbsup: Paul and Molly ,
what we REALLY see /Percieve the outward man or the inward man :HeartThrob:
Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, [yet] my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
Jhn 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
Jhn 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 15, 2009, 04:53:04 PM
That answer won't do when I'm in Berean mode :laughing7:
:cloud9: :laughing7: :grin: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 15, 2009, 06:32:46 PM"what if God was one of us"
Thanks for the reminder on the song. Haven't heard that one in years. Wanna see if anybody's put that one on Youtube. :icon_jokercolor: :laughing7:
Quote from: Cardinal on June 15, 2009, 08:43:34 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 15, 2009, 04:53:04 PM
That answer won't do when I'm in Berean mode :laughing7:
:cloud9: :laughing7: :grin: :thumbsup:
I hope your mixing that hearing /studying with Faith bro WW , its much more profitable that way :thumbsup:
that treasure in your heart no man can take away
like Mary here
:HeartThrob:
Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named
Martha received him into her house.
Luk 10:39 And she had a sister called Mary, which
also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. Luk 10:40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
Luk 10:41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:
Luk 10:42 But
one thing is needful: and Mary hath
chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.
here we see if you hear it and mix some faith with that you got a good thing going for sure :Sparkletooth:
Hbr 4:2 For unto us was the
gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not
profit them,
not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it]. I so want you to have it all bro !! :icon_flower: :icon_king:
22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
25The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26Jesus saith unto her, I [that speak unto thee] am [he].
--John 4
3Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.
4Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
5They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am [he]. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
6As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground.
7Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.
8Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
9That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
--John 18
Hi Zeek, I enjoyed reading what you wrote up, but a word of caution.
First of all, you are using the artificial constructs ('subconscious, conscious, ego, superego').of a drug addicted atheist (Freud) to describe the things of God.
Be careful. Freud reduced man to a material, carnal, and finally sexual being, basically an animal driven by the desires of his body. These movements at the turn of the 20th century were all of one piece---psychiatry, eugenics, evolution, marxism, existentialism, scientism--working together to reduce man to a beast and a slave, and the son of a monkey. These people were funded by those who wish to enslave us and inspired by satan.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
I could say "I am" all day long and soldiers would not fall backwards to the ground as they did above when Jesus said, ".egō eimi."
What does the philosopher say? I think therefore I am.
And, that means what? If he wasn't thinking he would not be?
But I have convinced myself that there is absolutely nothing in the world, no sky, no earth, no minds, no bodies. Does it now follow that I too do not exist? No. If I convinced myself of something [or thought anything at all] then I certainly existed. But there is a deceiver of supreme power and cunning who is deliberately and constantly deceiving me. In that case I too undoubtedly exist, if he is deceiving me; and let him deceive me as much as he can, he will never bring it about that I am nothing so long as I think that I am something. So, after considering everything very thoroughly, I must finally conclude that the proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind. (AT VII 25; CSM II 16–17)
--Descartes
He can only be certain, then, of his own existence. This will lead to the solipsism of the existentialists--nothing exists outside of my own mind, nothing exists outside of ME. It's the road to Hell.
I know you are not saying these things--but I am just pointing out where these thoughts come from, and that their origin is not new, and trying to alert you to where they lead.
We must be careful not to fall prey to doctrines of demons or to try to elevate ourselves above God.
It all becomes so tempting.
13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
--Isa 14
I wouldn't have thought that anyone here would think that God sends people to hell. If he does, then we first have to ask, which one? (There are three "hells"; hades, tartarus, Gehenna). I think we need to stop using the confusing language of Christendom and talk about whether God sends people to the LoF, which does apparently happen to at least some, according to Revelation.
Quote from: Doc on June 15, 2009, 09:49:00 PM
I wouldn't have thought that anyone here would think that God sends people to hell. If he does, then we first have to ask, which one? (There are three "hells"; hades, tartarus, Gehenna). I think we need to stop using the confusing language of Christendom and talk about whether God sends people to the LoF, which does apparently happen to at least some, according to Revelation.
O k Doc ,
seems the dead sea is cast in the LOF
seems all at once dont it ? can that be ?
this here in Rev 20 is very comparable to Daniels version/vision in Dan 7
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
seems to me they were already
dead to God perhaps ?
Quote from: Doc on June 15, 2009, 09:49:00 PM
I wouldn't have thought that anyone here would think that God sends people to hell. If he does, then we first have to ask, which one? (There are three "hells"; hades, tartarus, Gehenna). I think we need to stop using the confusing language of Christendom and talk about whether God sends people to the LoF, which does apparently happen to at least some, according to Revelation.
Would you think that anyone here has been to Hell and back?
(raising my hand) Been there, done that. :gangel:
(And, guess what? He was there with me.)
Quote from: rosered on June 15, 2009, 09:53:52 PM
Quote from: Doc on June 15, 2009, 09:49:00 PM
I wouldn't have thought that anyone here would think that God sends people to hell. If he does, then we first have to ask, which one? (There are three "hells"; hades, tartarus, Gehenna). I think we need to stop using the confusing language of Christendom and talk about whether God sends people to the LoF, which does apparently happen to at least some, according to Revelation.
O k Doc ,
seems the dead sea is cast in the LOF
seems all at once dont it ? can that be ?
this here in Rev 20 is very comparable to Daniels version/vision in Dan 7
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
seems to me they were already dead to God perhaps ?
I don't know. It could be all at once. It does seem that way from the context and the way it's worded. It would also seem that they were already dead to God in some sense (they were not in the Lamb's book of Life).
My point is, I think we need to be really clear what we're talking about when we say "hell", because it's such an over-used and misused word (and I'm not talking about swearing).
Quote from: Molly on June 15, 2009, 09:46:29 PM
We must be careful not to fall prey to doctrines of demons or to try to elevate ourselves above God.
It all becomes so tempting.
We have to also be careful of placing God to an imaginary realm where no one can actually see the hope of where we are going.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 15, 2009, 10:16:19 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 15, 2009, 09:46:29 PM
We must be careful not to fall prey to doctrines of demons or to try to elevate ourselves above God.
It all becomes so tempting.
We have to also be careful of placing God to an imaginary realm where no one can actually see the hope of where we are going.
Ideally, they would see the hope in our witness, because we are walking it out in three dimensions.
Acts 22:15
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Quote from: Molly on June 15, 2009, 09:46:29 PM
First of all, you are using the artificial constructs ('subconscious, conscious, ego, superego').of a drug addicted atheist (Freud) to describe the things of God.
:cloud9: AMEN Molly......God gave me a dream/vision once. I was shown a "book" that represented someone's heart, an unsaved family member. He opened the book and it was like to see both sides at once, starting from the outside pages, in.
Each set of pages had things like; psychology, philosophy, certain religion of hers, ect., it had a lot of pages. When we got to the heart of the book.......it was Satanism, and no she never practiced that literally. I took the hint and burned any leftover books I had in my library from my past, including college textbooks on those.
Not trying to offend ANYONE out there, but if we go on to know the Lord and receive of HIS FULLNESS, there has to be an emptying out to receive the new wine. Blessings....
Quote from: Molly on June 15, 2009, 09:46:29 PM
I could say "I am" all day long and soldiers would not fall backwards to the ground as they did above when Jesus said, ".egō eimi."
Just who do these soldiers represent??
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another,
that shall not be thrown down.
G2647
καταλύω
kataluō
kat-al-oo'-o
From G2596 and G3089; to loosen down (disintegrate), that is, (by implication) to demolish (literally or figuratively); specifically (compare G2646) to halt for the night: - destroy, dissolve, be guest, lodge, come to nought, overthrow,
throw down.
Quote from: Molly on June 15, 2009, 10:20:56 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 15, 2009, 10:16:19 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 15, 2009, 09:46:29 PM
We must be careful not to fall prey to doctrines of demons or to try to elevate ourselves above God.
It all becomes so tempting.
We have to also be careful of placing God to an imaginary realm where no one can actually see the hope of where we are going.
Ideally, they would see the hope in our witness, because we are walking it out in three dimensions.
Acts 22:15
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
I actually agree with that. I have met people that don't just practice what they hope once a week in a building they think they must go to. There are things that are lived out every day as life, not rituals that leave them and their witness empty.
Quote from: Cardinal on June 15, 2009, 10:52:26 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 15, 2009, 09:46:29 PM
First of all, you are using the artificial constructs ('subconscious, conscious, ego, superego').of a drug addicted atheist (Freud) to describe the things of God.
:cloud9: AMEN Molly......Each set of pages had things like; psychology, philosophy, certain religion of hers, ect., it had a lot of pages. When we got to the heart of the book.......it was Satanism...I took the hint and burned any leftover books I had in my library from my past, including college textbooks on those.
Not trying to offend ANYONE out there, but if we go on to know the Lord and receive of HIS FULLNESS, there has to be an emptying out to receive the new wine. Blessings....
I've tried to be very careful in my life to espouse only counseling theories that I felt lined up with accurate spiritual principles, and to reject those that didn't. I'm sure I've missed it at times. I certainly have been against much of what Freud, Jung, and their ilk taught. However, as with many things, I think we might best be careful to not fall in the ditch in either direction. IMO, many things have an emotional, behavioral, and genetically disordered basis, that we may call "depression, anxiety, psychosis", etc.; and God very well may use a brother or sister that has some expertise or training in that area with which to help individuals suffering from those things. Jesus said the sick need a physician. He
does miraculously heal..sometimes the miracle may be leading us to someone that knows how to help. I don't know why He does either at various times, other than it all suits His purpose and brings Him glory.
I know someone that takes insulin and heart medication, but won't take an antidepressant or antipsychotic medication. They see one more so as "medical" (even if brought on by life trauma/trauma to the body), but call the other [strictly] spiritual. Much of it may be, but IMO, there can be genetic/hereditary factors involved as well. They have been saved many years. They study scripture, pray for hours, cry, weep...and beg day after day for God to take their life because they are so miserable...depressed, and possibly with some psychotic symptoms. They entertain suicide day after day, but so far, haven't pulled the trigger.
If someone's mentally retarded, we are willing to admit they have something physically wrong with their brain. But if they're mentally ill, often caused by brain dysfunction, we claim it all as spiritual. I do have an understanding of that, because even as a mental health professional [or perhaps especially as] I have often struggled with "how much of this stuff is OK with God, how much lines up OK with His Word, etc.". It's not been easy. So it may be even more difficult for someone not knee-deep in the field to sort through it, I don't know. I only have my perspective.
Throughout 25 years of practice, I've often found it difficult to maintain a proper balance; at times, wanting to throw it all out; at other times, believing I understood there is a place and time for some theories and techniques that weren't too "out there".
I think it's hard to know sometimes. Yes, I need to empty myself out and totally seek and trust the Lord. However, He doesn't always necessarily appear in person to hand me everything I need. Sometimes He sends someone along with a glass of water.
I see either, as Him showing up...always just in time, with exactly what I need. Praise be to God.
Lastly, does God send people to Hell? I think I make much of my own "hell".
Jab,
you just reminded me of this:
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Public Domain
John 9 (Young's Literal Translation)
John 9
1And passing by, he saw a man blind from birth,
2and his disciples asked him, saying, `Rabbi, who did sin, this one or his parents, that he should be born blind?'
3Jesus answered, `Neither did this one sin nor his parents, but that the works of God may be manifested in him;
4it behoveth me to be working the works of Him who sent me while it is day; night doth come, when no one is able to work: --
5when I am in the world, I am a light of the world.'
6These things saying, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and rubbed the clay on the eyes of the blind man, and said to him,
7`Go away, wash at the pool of Siloam,' which is, interpreted, Sent. He went away, therefore, and did wash, and came seeing;
Yep, there's a whole lot there to consider alright. What's the scripture about the ways of God are beyond finding out? He's way too big for my poor little mind.
I was thinking earlier about Jesus telling Peter to buy a sword, then when he used it, told him to put it away and healed the soldier. Sometimes we may know that we know that we know...other times I think we do what we hope is best, then God steps in and either affirms it, or corrects it...either way, working all together for our good and His glory.
Hey Jabcat,
I have slight OCD and I take some meds for it. I used to worry that if I took it then I wouldn't be able to tell what was God and what was not God and what was myself. xD But after I started taking medicine for it I felt sooo much better! My mind didn't "run" near as much, and I felt so much more relaxed. However I got to have OCD symptoms, either because of physical or spiritual means, the medication has definitely helped and is truly a God send! :bigGrin:
Quote from: Tim B on June 16, 2009, 02:55:50 AM
Hey Jabcat,
I have slight OCD and I take some meds for it. I used to worry that if I took it then I wouldn't be able to tell what was God and what was not God and what was myself. xD But after I started taking medicine for it I felt sooo much better! My mind didn't "run" near as much, and I felt so much more relaxed. However I got to have OCD symptoms, either because of physical or spiritual means, the medication has definitely helped and is truly a God send! :bigGrin:
Good point. Maybe even the wondering "which is God, which is me", etc. could have even been a little of the OCD :bigGrin:. I understand what you're saying, though. I've recently been led to examine much of my own thinking, trying to identify how much of it is God speaking to James vs. James speaking to James :laughing7:.
Like the Peter thing I mentioned earlier. Sometimes we do what we do...God knows what's best, steps in and helps one way or another ("buy the sword" or "put the sword away")...and IMO, whether He touches you directly with His mighty hand, or leads you to a good doc who has a good medication invented by a good pharmacologist, and provided you with the means to pay for it...etc....it's still God taking care of you, in whatever way He has seen fit to do it on that occasion and at that particular time :thumbsup:.
As James said (if I'm quoting somewhere close here) "every good and perfect gift comes from the Father of Light, in Whom there is no variableness..."
:cloud9: Good points, Jab........I should have added, that He FIRST has us lay EVERYTHING down, so He can cleanse it, and then give it back to us, with the corrupted Word that has been hidden in it, RESTORED.
But this laying down of all has to occur first, and then thru the maturity of the Spirit within, He can quicken to us what to pick back up and within what perimeters of expression. Make sense? Blessings.....
Thanks Card...yeah, with me though, it seems it's a bit here and a bit there...a little at a time...more of like being on a lifetime learning program. I can claim no special "I've got it figured out, I'm in God's perfect will, I have a special place in the Kingdom, etc."...Only that I'm loved and forgiven.
I plug along, God nudges me, shines a light, sometimes I follow, sometimes I rebel...then God nudges me, shines a light, sometimes I....day by day, Sis. Blessings to you and yours.