The Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death.
Rom 6:22 And now, having been freed from the sin, and having become servants to God, ye have your fruit--to sanctification, and the end life age-during;
Rom 6:23 for the wages of the sin is death, and the gift of God is life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Why is it that the christian religion or belief teach, that we do not have to die, to pay that wage to receive salvation?
And if we dont have to pay that sentence/price, what is our wage to pay for sin?
The wages of sin is death. Did the duration of death change? imo yes.
Below verses about dead saints. Need I say more?
ACVRev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them. And judgment was given to them and the souls of those who were beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not worship the beast nor his image,
5 The rest of the dead did not live until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 07, 2011, 09:22:52 AM
The wages of sin is death. Did the duration of death change? imo yes.
Below verses about dead saints. Need I say more?
ACVRev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them. And judgment was given to them and the souls of those who were beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not worship the beast nor his image,
5 The rest of the dead did not live until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
I did not question a duration.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 07, 2011, 10:16:41 AM
I did not question a duration.
You did. It's just you don't understand my answer.
Try to read my whole reply and not selectively pick out a word....
The first lie in the scriptures is when the serpent tells Eve she will not die if she eats of the tree of knowledge.
1 Cor 15;53,54 " For this corruptible needs must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and this MORTAL shall clothe itself with immortality. But whensoever this MORTAL shall clothe itself with immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that death has been swallowed up vitoriously;"
Quote from: Ross on September 07, 2011, 02:29:50 PM
The first lie in the scriptures is when the serpent tells Eve she will not die if she eats of the tree of knowledge.
Back then that was a lie. Did that change when Jesus was resurrected?
Quote1 Cor 15;53,54 " For this corruptible needs must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and this MORTAL shall clothe itself with immortality. But whensoever this MORTAL shall clothe itself with immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that death has been swallowed up vitoriously;"
I really see your point Ross (and agree). But having read several death/soul sleep threads that some of the counter arguments are:
- God is the God of the living.
- People who die (after Christ) just walk trough a door and immediately get that robe of immortality.
- Spirit goes to heaven and body follows later.
For me there are several anchor points:
1] How can Jesus' be a first fruit is millions OT people where resurrected before Him.
---> If it's just about believers in Christ then it's very well possible several believers died before Jesus' resurrection.
2] Revelation speaks of several resurrections. Including believers. Resurrection is always from a death. So they must be dead. (who are the souls under the altar?)
3] No man ever entered heaven before Jesus.
:dontknow:
Quote from: wwHow can Jesus' be a first fruit is millions OT people where resurrected before Him.
I don't know what millions you are talking about but, Jesus is the first to be resurrected in a glorified body.
Quotewho are the souls under the altar?)
They are the souls of the OT saints.
Quote from: MicahWhy is it that the christian religion or belief teach, that we do not have to die, to pay that wage to receive salvation
Christ paid the price for us.
By this we perceive the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.--I John 3:16
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR4CCLnmf1Q
Quote from: Molly on September 07, 2011, 06:01:23 PM
Quote from: wwHow can Jesus' be a first fruit is millions OT people where resurrected before Him.
I don't know what millions you are talking about but, Jesus is the first to be resurrected in a glorified body.
Quotewho are the souls under the altar?)
They are the souls of the OT saints.
Quote from: MicahWhy is it that the christian religion or belief teach, that we do not have to die, to pay that wage to receive salvation
Christ paid the price for us.
By this we perceive the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
--I John 3:16
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR4CCLnmf1Q
How can they be souls of the old testament? . The verse says they testify Jesus.
These souls are beheaded. The antichrist beheads people.
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
--Rev 6:9
Oops, you're right, TT, in that they include the New Testament saints as well. So they are both the OT and New Testament saints up to the present day. Of course, the OT saints knew Jesus. Who do you think was talking to them?
33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
--Mat 23
Quote from: Molly on September 07, 2011, 06:01:23 PM
Quote from: wwHow can Jesus' be a first fruit is millions OT people where resurrected before Him.
I don't know what millions you are talking about but, Jesus is the first to be resurrected in a glorified body.
Quotewho are the souls under the altar?)
They are the souls of the OT saints.
Quote from: MicahWhy is it that the christian religion or belief teach, that we do not have to die, to pay that wage to receive salvation
Christ paid the price for us.
By this we perceive the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
--I John 3:16
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR4CCLnmf1Q
So if we don't have to die, because Jesus paid the price, then the serpent did not lie, but told the truth?
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman,
Ye shall not surely die: Is that what you are saying Molly?
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 07, 2011, 08:26:18 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 07, 2011, 06:01:23 PM
Quote from: wwHow can Jesus' be a first fruit is millions OT people where resurrected before Him.
I don't know what millions you are talking about but, Jesus is the first to be resurrected in a glorified body.
Quotewho are the souls under the altar?)
They are the souls of the OT saints.
Quote from: MicahWhy is it that the christian religion or belief teach, that we do not have to die, to pay that wage to receive salvation
Christ paid the price for us.
By this we perceive the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
--I John 3:16
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR4CCLnmf1Q
So if we don't have to die, because Jesus paid the price, then the serpent did not lie, but told the truth?
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: Is that what you are saying Molly?
The serpent did lie and they did die. But, now has the prophecy that God made in that same chapter of Gen 3 come to fulfillment.
I believe Jesus when he tells me I will never die.
What prophecy?
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Joh 4:14 but whoever may drink of the water that I will give him, may not thirst--to the age; and the water that I will give him shall become in him a well of water, springing up to life age-during.'
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you: If anyone shall keep, my word, death, shall he not see, unto times age-abiding.
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Joh 10:28 And, I, give unto them life age-abiding, and in nowise shall they perish, unto times age-abiding; and no one shall carry them off out of my hand.
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 11:26 And, no one who liveth again and believeth on me, shall in anywise die, unto times age-abiding. Believest thou this?
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Joh 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
Joh 13:8 Peter saith to him, `Thou mayest not wash my feet--to the age.' Jesus answered him, `If I may not wash thee, thou hast no part with me;'
shall neverG3364 G1519 G165
Never: G3364 ou mē a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise)
G1519 eis A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.);
G165 aiōn an age;
Quote from: Molly on September 07, 2011, 06:01:23 PM
Quote from: wwHow can Jesus' be a first fruit is millions OT people where resurrected before Him.
I don't know what millions you are talking about but, Jesus is the first to be resurrected in a glorified body.
:sigh:
QuoteQuotewho are the souls under the altar?)
They are the souls of the OT saints.
Hu?
Quote from: Molly on September 07, 2011, 08:42:23 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 07, 2011, 08:26:18 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 07, 2011, 06:01:23 PM
Quote from: wwHow can Jesus' be a first fruit is millions OT people where resurrected before Him.
I don't know what millions you are talking about but, Jesus is the first to be resurrected in a glorified body.
Quotewho are the souls under the altar?)
They are the souls of the OT saints.
Quote from: MicahWhy is it that the christian religion or belief teach, that we do not have to die, to pay that wage to receive salvation
Christ paid the price for us.
By this we perceive the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
--I John 3:16
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR4CCLnmf1Q
So if we don't have to die, because Jesus paid the price, then the serpent did not lie, but told the truth?
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: Is that what you are saying Molly?
The serpent did lie and they did die. But, now has the prophecy that God made in that same chapter of Gen 3 come to fulfillment.
I believe Jesus when he tells me I will never die.
I think that's an interpretation based on wishful thinking with zero support inside or outside the Bible.
Bartholomew (skinned alive and beheaded)
James, the Lesser (stoned and clubbed-to-death)
Andrew (crucified upside down on an X-shaped cross)
Peter (crucified upside down)
Thomas (impaled by a spear)
James, the Great (beheaded)
Phillip (crucified)
Matthew (burned-to-death?)
Jude Thaddeus (sawed or axed to death?)
Simon the Zealot (sawed or axed-to-death?)
"Christ paid the price for us." Molly
Yes, Jesus paid the price, the ransom for the sins of the world
Joh 1:29 On the morrow he seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!
But that does not wipe out your wage for YOUR sins? Rom 3:23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God--
And...The wages for sin is death, are you excluded?
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
or
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Have YOU not sinned? And if YOU sinned what is the wage YOU must pay?
1 John 2:2
(ASV) and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.
(CLV) And He is the propitiatory shelter concerned with our sins, yet not concerned with ours only, but concerned with the whole world also."
(KJV) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(Rotherham) And, he, is, a propitiation, concerning our sins,—and, not concerning our own only, but, also concerning those of the whole world.
(WNT) and He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(YLT) and he--he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,
And very well said WW. :bigGrin:
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 07, 2011, 08:46:13 PM
What prophecy?
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Joh 4:14 but whoever may drink of the water that I will give him, may not thirst--to the age; and the water that I will give him shall become in him a well of water, springing up to life age-during.'
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you: If anyone shall keep, my word, death, shall he not see, unto times age-abiding.
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Joh 10:28 And, I, give unto them life age-abiding, and in nowise shall they perish, unto times age-abiding; and no one shall carry them off out of my hand.
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 11:26 And, no one who liveth again and believeth on me, shall in anywise die, unto times age-abiding. Believest thou this?
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Joh 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
Joh 13:8 Peter saith to him, `Thou mayest not wash my feet--to the age.' Jesus answered him, `If I may not wash thee, thou hast no part with me;'
shall neverG3364 G1519 G165
Never: G3364 ou mē a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise)
G1519 eis A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.);
G165 aiōn an age;
I tell you the truth, if a person continues to obey my teaching, then that person will never die.
--John 8:51
and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" [John 11:26]
Is life for the ages not good enough for you?
Molly the way I have been understanding what you have said is that you do not have to die ,meaning to die in the body you now are in, of flesh.
If that is what you are saying, I do not understand how you have come to that conclusion.
I reason then that you say you are exempt, from the wages of sin, that everyone else has to pay for sin, is this what you imply?
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 08, 2011, 03:59:05 AM
Molly the way I have been understanding what you have said is that you do not have to die ,meaning to die in the body you now are in, of flesh.
If that is what you are saying, I do not understand how you have come to that conclusion.
I reason then that you say you are exempt, from the wages of sin, that everyone else has to pay for sin, is this what you imply?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
People's New Testament
"8:51 If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. Here again is a condition and a promise. Notice (1) Its universal character: If any one, Jew or Gentile, male or female, bond or free. (2) The condition: Keep my words. By obedience we are not only freed, but enter into life. (3) The promise: Shall not see death. Death of the body is not reckoned death, but merely the gate through which the believer enters upon a more perfect life. The real death is that of the soul.
"
Again, Jesus paid the wages for us. That is what the meaning of 'kinsman redeemer' is.
He was delivered over to death for our sins and raised to life for our justification.
--Rom 4:25
JESUS DID NOT DIE ON THE CROSS THE DEATH OF DIEING SPIRITUAL DEATH, HE DIED THE DEATH OF EXPIRATION, QUITTING THE ACT OF BREATHING.
And He did NOT DIE INSTEAD of us, He was not a substitute, He was THE LAMB SLAIN for the sins of the world.
Just what is it that makes you and those who believe like you, feel/think that you do not have to pay the wage for your individual sin?
He was delivered over to death for my sins. What else is there to pay?
Isaiah 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2011, 04:41:09 AM
He was delivered over to death for my sins. What else is there to pay?
Isaiah 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
"He was delivered over to death for my sins. What else is there to pay?" Molly
Okay should that be the case then the Apostle Paul wasted his time writing, ALL have sinned and the wages of sin is death.
He preached this word AFTER Jesus was on the Cross for the sins of the world. Paul said and knew he would have to pay his wage, Peter thought so as well. Jesus did die for the sins of the world, but NO WHERE will you find that He hung on that Cross INSTEAD of you and me. It just seems that you want the prize but you dont want to pay.
Should Jesus have died instead of us, then the Paul, well why do we even listen to him? Jesus died on the cross instead of us, payed the ransom price, so you (Molly) does not have to pay for your sins. Hey that makes you just a little bit better than Jesus, He payed for the sins of the world, but you (Molly) dont have to pay for your sins with the same wage. Okay I get it.
If I am being harsh or rash, Im sorry, but for someone to tell me that they do not have to pay for their individual sins, while Jesus the Savior of the world died for all sins just upsets me.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 08, 2011, 05:11:46 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2011, 04:41:09 AM
He was delivered over to death for my sins. What else is there to pay?
Isaiah 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
"He was delivered over to death for my sins. What else is there to pay?" Molly
Okay should that be the case then the Apostle Paul wasted his time writing, ALL have sinned and the wages of sin is death.
He preached this word AFTER Jesus was on the Cross for the sins of the world. Paul said and knew he would have to pay his wage, Peter thought so as well. Jesus did die for the sins of the world, but NO WHERE will you find that He hung on that Cross INSTEAD of you and me. It just seems that you want the prize but you dont want to pay.
Should Jesus have died instead of us, then the Paul, well why do we even listen to him? Jesus died on the cross instead of us, payed the ransom price, so you (Molly) does not have to pay for your sins. Hey that makes you just a little bit better than Jesus, He payed for the sins of the world, but you (Molly) dont have to pay for your sins with the same wage. Okay I get it.
If I am being harsh or rash, Im sorry, but for someone to tell me that they do not have to pay for their individual sins, while Jesus the Savior of the world died for all sins just upsets me.
I think of it more like a debt is owed. Somebody has to pay the debt. But, no where does it say the debt has to be paid twice.
If I pay a 200 dollar speeding ticket for my child, does the state then come to him and require him to pay it again himself? Because I paid it for him, it doesn't count? It doesn't satisfy the debt?
It's just a matter of a legal requirement being fulfilled. And, Christ fulfilled it
If the Son of God stands up and says, I am going to pay that debt for molly--who is going to argue with him? And, that's what he did.
having forgiven all our trespasses by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
--Col 2:14
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23). It is not written that the wages shall be death, but the passage we have before us, penned by divine inspiration, by God's finger, is, "The wages of sin IS death." "She that lives in pleasure," the Scripture again says, "is dead while she lives." Dead in trespasses and in sins. It is a sad and most horrible fact that there are millions and thousands of millions of people going about this earth dead in their spirits! Dead to God! Dead to virtue! Dead to truth! Dead to purity! Dead to righteousness! DEAD!
I speak not, therefore, concerning a death that is to come. I speak of the wages, OPSONIA, which in the original means the reward of a soldier, the Wages of a man who is fighting as a soldier; Wages he has earned, as a patriot fighting for his King and his country; or Wages which he has received as a mere mercenary soldier, fighting for the pay which a tyrant might give him for his work in destroying life and property and liberty to put a usurper in power. The meaning, therefore of the word is Wages for a military man. The free gift of God is the reverse of this. God's soldiers do not receive the LIFE OF THE AGES as Wages, but as a free gift.
The first warning against disobedience is, "In the day that you eat of you shall surely die." The words "you shall surely die" are often translated " dying you shall die," or "you are dying to die." That is, "dying" is a process, and "to die" is the final act or event in the process. When Adam sinned it was life that he lost; it was death and dissolution that he received.
The word "death" means vastly more than this old dilapidated body going to the grave; it means the whole condition and state of being of the man outside of Christ. May God make this truth real to your hearts!
"The dead know not anything" (Eccl. 9:5). Furthermore, the dead see not anything, nor do they hear or feel anything. How can a natural man who is dead in trespasses and sins hope to see or understand the things that belong to the wonderful realm of life, since death has closed his eyes to them? It is Christ and Christ alone who raises the dead, making men alive to God and the realm of the Spirit. It matters not to Him nor to His resurrection power whether those dead be corpses buried in the earth or whether they be men walking on top of the ground, dead while they live. "Let the dead bury the dead," said Jesus, because He understood the mystery I seek now to explain. Well did the Son of God know that outside of Him both the man who was being buried and the men who cast the earth into his grave belonged to the realm of death and were alike dead!
Death takes in this whole dreadful realm of sin, weakness, fear, sorrow, pain, heartache, rebellion, strife, war, sickness, torment, sadness and trouble in which men walk without the peace and joy and transforming power of God in their lives. Men need to know that they are dead and that the wrath of God abides upon them. "But," you may ask, "what is the wrath of God?" I must reply that the wrath of God is death! "The soul that sins, it shall die," is the edict of the Lord. God's wrath against sin is manifested in the death of the sinner, a Christless death in which he is dead to God, dead to Christ, dead to virtue, dead to truth, dead to purity, dead to righteousness, dead to peace, dead to joy, dead to reality, dead to promise, dead to hope. He abides in this death throughout all the decades, centuries, or milleniums of his existence until Christ comes into his heart. It was this very truth that Jesus was making clear to us when He said, "He that has the Son has life, but he that has not the Son of God has not life; but the wrath of God abides on him." The wrath of God is death. Though such an one should live in the extreme fullness of earth's pleasures, yet HE IS DEAD while he lives, a stranger to Christ, a stranger to spiritual things, and an enemy of God.
The same death of the body is the condition of our soul and spirit as we come into this world."
Jesus raised three people from the dead during His years of ministry, and each of these stands as a picture of the condition of those who are raised out of the death of the carnal mind into the life of the Son of God.
All men are born sinners; and the wages of sin is death. But Jesus became a sin offering for all men, He carried those sins to the cross, and that ends the matter. And there, because He actually atoned for ALL those sins, He actually "ABOLISHED DEATH." To abolish is to do away with entirely. Death is no more. That is God's estimation of the fruit of Christ's redemption! "Our Saviour Jesus Christ, who HAS ABOLISHED DEATH, and has brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel" (II Tim. 1:10). - J. Preston Eby
I'm not going to get into this too deep. It's been a confusing topic a time or two on the boards. I'll post a quick summary, and get out :)
1) apparently some think they won't ever physically die if they meet certain conditions
2) some believe "the wages of sin is death" simply means "physical death"
3) I think Molly's (and some others) stance is, the body may die, but the spirit will never die. it transitions from the bodily realm to another realm upon death of the body; that "death without Jesus or life with Jesus" means spiritual death. That it has to do with the legal wages of sin, and that's what Jesus paid to redeem us from. "Tetelestai!" [IT IS FINISHED], is a legal term, "paid in full". So those that believe on Him will no longer [spiritually] die.
I personally fall more in #3 way of seeing it, but again, I won't argue it. We will see when we will see.
God bless.
the accusor of the brethern spirit ALWAYS GETS HOT when people say 'sin' and it's wages are removed from mankind :bigGri Old Adam's flesh is
as good as dead from the first bite. Christ sait 'I AM THE RESURRECTION" When I go home I will leave this dusty vessel here,He will clothe my
spirit from on high.
Isaaih 52; AWAKE,AWAKE! O'ZION,CLOTHE YOURSELF WITH STRENGTH.......PUT ON YOUR GARMENTS OF SLPENDOUR,O'JERUSALEM
THE HOLY CITY.....SHAKE OFF YOUR DUST! RISE UP......SIT ENTHRONED
FREE YOURSELF O CAPTIVE[TO SIN IN FLESH] DAUGHTER OF ZION
FOR THIS IS WHAT THE LORD SAYS;
YOU WERE SOLD FOR NOTHING[SATAN DIDN'T BUT US FROM GOD] AND WITHOUT MONEY YOU WILL BE REDEEMED
Quote from: JabOur Saviour Jesus Christ, who HAS ABOLISHED DEATH, and has brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel" (II Tim. 1:10).
It doesn't get any better than that. :icon_king:
"I'm not going to get into this too deep." Jabcat
Im getting out of it altogether. Besides the Trinity and Free will, I believe that "You Dont Have to Die for your individual sins" ought to be banned as well.
If there are some on this forum that consider, that Jesus the Lamb of God and His sacrifice for the sins of the world, was a substitute, died instead of, paying the debt for the one who sinned individually, then I cannot abide such a blasphemy of God's Word.
There is no place in the Bible that teaches that Jesus died INSTEAD US. Jesus died for the sins of the World.
It would seem that some are above the price that Jesus payed for the sins of the world, some do not feel the need to follow in the footsteps of the Pattern Son. They just take a short cut, at the expense of Jesus. And their sin was really nothing and has no wage.
And according to you'alls doctrine the serpent is the winner Gen 3:4 And the serpent saith unto the woman, `Dying, ye do not die,
He got you right along with the woman.
Lock this one too. :dsunny:
Im not a fan of printing a long post but this is part of "Why Did Christ Die" by A.P. Adams
Now a single thought in closing, in all these answers to the question, Why did Christ die? there is not a particle of substitution, not the least hint at a so-called "Vicarious" atonement. I know of course how some try to make out substitution from some of these texts we have examined. But this is done either by ignorance or thoughtlessness or prejudice; no deliberate impartial examiner of these scriptures can find any substitution in them at all; and yet men insist on this God-dishonoring dogma as though it was one of the main pillars of the eternal throne. Perhaps some will think of the passages, "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree" (I Pet. 2:24), and He "suffered for sins the just for the unjust," (I Pet. 3:18) etc.; these passages seem to some to teach substitution, but this is only because they have been accustomed to so regard them; for instance, here is a paragraph from the writings of one who believes in substitution.
"Christ was our substitute in death; he died the just FOR the unjust. He tasted death FOR every man. This dying for the guilty was substitution."
In this paragraph the brother emphasizes the for as though of itself it taught substitution. But does it? Is it not possible for one person to do something for another except as the others substitute? O how blind and careless these self-constituted leaders are! The physician prescribes a remedy for his patient, but not instead of him. Christ "died for our sins" (1 Cor. 15: 3), but not instead of them. He died "the just for the unjust," but it does not necessarily follow from this statement, as many think, that he died instead of the unjust. "He bore our sins," but in what capacity? as an associate, or as a substitute? So far as the simple statement is concerned it might be either, but from other scripture, as we have seen, we know that Christ was NOT our substitute, but our companion and Elder Brother, the Sharer of our woes. I say we know this from scripture, we also know it from fact. Let the reader carefully consider this question: In what death was Christ our substitute? We have seen that there are several kinds of death, physical death, spiritual death and the second death; now a substitute is one who does something for another which the other does not do; for example, in the time of war if a man was drafted he sometimes hired some other man to go to war in his stead and this man was called a substitute; the substitute went to war while the drafted man did not go. Now then, if Christ died as our substitute he must have died some death that we do not die. What death was it? Man is already dead spiritually (Eph. 2:1); he must die physically, (Heb. 9:27) and of course Christ did not die the second death. Even if there were "a death that never dies," as the churches say, Christ died no such death as our substitute or otherwise. In what death then was Christ our substitute? "He tasted death for every man" (Heb. 2:9), but it could not have been as a substitute for every man, for the simple reason that man must himself die; we can very readily see how Christ died for man as his associate, "made in all points like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest" (Heb. 2:17), we can readily see how he was the first to pass through the whole process of God's way of life through death, as our Forerunner, and the Captain of our salvation, in order to deliver man, not from a death to which they were exposed, but out of a death in which they were already involved.
But it would be impossible to explain, either on a scriptural basis or on the ground of fact and reason, how Christ died as man's substitute; and especially those who believe that the atoning death of Christ was his physical death on the literal cross would find it exceedingly difficult to prove that that death was substitutional, for surely man himself must die physically. "Dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return" (Gen. 3:19), is a penalty that every man must himself bear, with the exception that Paul refers to in I Cor. 15: 51. The idea then of the substitutional or vicarious character of the atonement is simply and purely a human "tradition," "making the Word of God of none effect" (Mark 7:13).
As this subject is very important, I will add another illustration of the shallow, careless way in which men reason in order to prop up this falsehood of substitution. In order to defend this doctrine from the charge of injustice, the injustice of the innocent suffering, instead of the guilty, it is alleged that this is no more unjust than the vicarious suffering that is allowed in the world all the time; "Do not the innocent suffer for the guilty here in this life," it is asked, "Is there not vicarious suffering all around us, the mother suffers for the child, the child suffers for the parent, the wife suffers for the husband, the community suffers for the criminal, etc. Surely if God permits this continual vicarious suffering in the world, should we find fault, and brand it as unjust, because Christ suffers vicariously?" Now is it not a marvel that intelligent, thoughtful men, ministers, editors of religious periodicals, evangelists, etc., that such men as these should reason in this way and not perceive its utter fallacy? It is true that there is a great deal of suffering in this world on the part of the innocent for the guilty, this of course is a certain and a sad fact; but is this suffering vicarious? This last words means "to do or suffer in the place of another." Do the innocent suffer in the place of the guilty in this world? i.e., instead of the guilty, so that the guilty escape the punishment that the innocent suffer in their stead? Will the drunken husband have less punishment because his wife has suffered a part of his punishment in his place? This would be the case if the wife suffered for him vicariously, i.e., as his substitute; but of course no one has any such idea. The fact is there is no vicarious suffering in the world, not a particle; the innocent suffer for the guilty, i.e., on their account, but they do not suffer in their place, or instead of them. No one suffers a single pang that another ought to suffer in that other one's stead; and no one will escape a single pang because someone else has suffered it in his place. "Every man shall bear his own burden (Gal. 6: 5); "Every man shall receive according to his deeds" (Rom. 2: 6); "Every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward" (Heb. 2: 2).
Thus on every hand, however we may look at it from the standpoint of reason, fact or Scripture, it is seen that the doctrine of substitution is false; let it go with that other lie of endless torments, seeing that it is equally dishonoring to God. We can readily find from Scripture the real reasons for the death of Christ, reasons that commend themselves to an enlightened judgment and that magnify the wisdom and love of God. And now I will add another scriptural answer to the question, why did Christ die? which has just occurred to me since I sent the first part of this article to my printer; "Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him [in bringing many sons unto glory], endured the cross [death], despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God" (Heb. 12: 2). Let the reader ponder this reason for himself.
LAW FOR A KINSMAN REDEEMER
The first law we read today is the LAW OF THE KINSMAN REDEEMER. (Leviticus 25:47-55). There are a number of provisions in the Law for those who come upon difficult situations that result in poverty. A poor person could be redeemed by a member of the family, a blood relative. This person would be known as a KINSMAN REDEEMER.
Leviticus 25:47-48 (NASB) 47 'Now if the means of a stranger or of a sojourner with you becomes sufficient, and a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard to him as to sell himself to a stranger who is sojourning with you, or to the descendants of a stranger's family, 48 then he shall have redemption right after he has been sold. One of his brothers may redeem him.
This law pertains to the responsibility and right of a kinsman to act on behalf of a suffering relative who has become impoverished or indebted to a stranger. This will become an important provision for those who come upon difficult times in Israel.
Unlike the Law of the Jubilee Year, a Law which has prophetic significance, but, according to historians, no record of being implemented, the Laws pertaining to a Kinsman Redeemer are put into practice in the Book of Ruth. This law, and the law of the Levirate marriage (Deuteronomy 25:5-6), will make it possible for the inheritance lost to the household of Elimelech (Literally, "God is my king") to be restored through his cousin, Boaz. This provision will also bring a Gentile, Ruth, from Moab, into the inheritance of Israel, and bring forth a child by Boaz, named Obed, who will be the great great grandfather of King David and the ancestor of Jesus of Nazareth. (More on that exciting story when we get to The Book of "Ruth"!)
This law also anticipates the gospel. Our common ancestors, Adam and his wife, forfeited their inheritance, fellowship with God, selling their birthright to a Stranger, Satan, disguised as a Shining One (Hebrew word for serpent- nachash- derived from enchanter). To him they have become slaves through sin incurring a debt that is beyond their means to pay. Only a Kinsman, who had sufficient means (no debt of sin or slavery to Satan) could redeem then.
God's Son would become man, and thereby a kinsman to the human race, yet without sin. He pays the debt in full. The claim is settled on all sides and the oppressed go free!
Hebrews 2:14-15 (NASB) 14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
http://www.newlife.org/node/717
Okay, I quit. There is no truth in the Bible.
Molly you tell me that dying and returning to dust is old bad OT Solomon which dont mean nothing in the NT, and then you give me OT Leviticus to prove your point. The wages of sin is death, okay Jesus paid that bill and He didnt even sin[/b], is there something wrong here?
Here is the Son of God yet He pays the price for sin who KNEW NO SIN, s of the whole world and He didnt even sin, and and we, mankind just have to believe in Him, and our individual sins are squat and need no payment.
edit. ("4. Calling out any member's views/opinions as stupid, dumb, crazy etc. viz. insults.")
Let me ask a simple question, again, without delving too deeply;
from Jesus saying in John 11:26 that those who believe on Him will never die, doesn't that tell us there is more than one kind of death? If not, then He's saying the heart will never stop beating and the lungs never stop breathing.
So Question 2 :) Mustn't He then be talking about a type of death that is indeed ended by believing on Him? Otherwise, wouldn't He be lying?
We're talking about death, Micah. I never said 'our individual sins are squat and need no payment.' And, I don't speak for Tentmaker, just for myself.
But, yes, I think the Bible makes it quite clear that we owe a debt of death for our sins and Jesus has paid that debt for us with his own death.
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. [2 Cor 5:21]
Now is that a fair trade? He takes on our sin so that we might take on his righteousness. Sounds like amazing grace to me!
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2011, 07:33:18 AM
We're talking about death, Micah. I never said 'our individual sins are squat and need no payment.' And, I don't speak for Tentmaker, just for myself.
But, yes, I think the Bible makes it quite clear that we owe a debt of death for our sins and Jesus has paid that debt for us with his own death.
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. [2 Cor 5:21]
Now is that a fair trade? He takes on our sin so that we might take on his righteousness. Sounds like amazing grace to me!
"to be sin for us"
To be a SIN OFFERING a SIN OFFERING!
Quote from: jabcat on September 08, 2011, 07:32:15 AM
Let me ask a simple question, again, without delving too deeply;
from Jesus saying in John 11:26 that those who believe on Him will never die, doesn't that tell us there is more than one kind of death? If not, then He's saying the heart will never stop beating and the lungs never stop breathing.
So Question 2 :) Mustn't He then be talking about a type of death that is indeed ended by believing on Him? Otherwise, wouldn't He be lying?
"Do not fear those who kill the body
but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
--Mat 10:27
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 08, 2011, 07:41:04 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2011, 07:33:18 AM
We're talking about death, Micah. I never said 'our individual sins are squat and need no payment.' And, I don't speak for Tentmaker, just for myself.
But, yes, I think the Bible makes it quite clear that we owe a debt of death for our sins and Jesus has paid that debt for us with his own death.
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. [2 Cor 5:21]
Now is that a fair trade? He takes on our sin so that we might take on his righteousness. Sounds like amazing grace to me!
"to be sin for us"
To be a SIN OFFERING a SIN OFFERING!
what does that mean, Micah? What is a sin offering?
How does a sin offering allow me to become the righteousness of God?
And, if I am the righteousness of God---why would I die?
Quote from: jabcat on September 08, 2011, 07:32:15 AM
Let me ask a simple question, again, without delving too deeply;
from Jesus saying in John 11:26 that those who believe on Him will never die, doesn't that tell us there is more than one kind of death? If not, then He's saying the heart will never stop beating and the lungs never stop breathing.
So Question 2 :) Mustn't He then be talking about a type of death that is indeed ended by believing on Him? Otherwise, wouldn't He be lying?
Let all this spiritual dying aside, I believe we all understand that.
Did Jesus die a spiritual death or did He die in the flesh?I tryed to make and understanding about John 11:26 earlier but it seems that some don't feel that they have to pay the death that Jesus payed. All they have to do is believe on Him and the death that He died is not needed for their debt.
Again show me scripture and verse where it says or implies that Jesus was our SUBSTITUTE.
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2011, 07:42:35 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 08, 2011, 07:41:04 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2011, 07:33:18 AM
We're talking about death, Micah. I never said 'our individual sins are squat and need no payment.' And, I don't speak for Tentmaker, just for myself.
But, yes, I think the Bible makes it quite clear that we owe a debt of death for our sins and Jesus has paid that debt for us with his own death.
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. [2 Cor 5:21]
Now is that a fair trade? He takes on our sin so that we might take on his righteousness. Sounds like amazing grace to me!
"to be sin for us"
To be a SIN OFFERING a SIN OFFERING!
what does that mean, Micah? What is a sin offering?
How does a sin offering allow me to become the righteousness of God?
And, if I am the righteousness of God---why would I die?
No, you tell me, you have spoke of all the tabernacle and the laws of the OT. You tell me what a SIN OFFERING is.
Molly do you believe that Jesus became sin, ONE WHO KNEW NO SIN? Was Jesus sin? Did Jesus sin? What sin did Jesus commit?
"And, if I am the righteousness of God---why would I die? Molly
BECAUSE THE WAGES FOR YOUR SIN IS DEATH, THE WAGES FOR MY SIN IS DEATH, DEATH IS THE PAYMENT FOR OUR SINS![/quote]
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 08, 2011, 07:46:29 AM
Quote from: jabcat on September 08, 2011, 07:32:15 AM
Let me ask a simple question, again, without delving too deeply;
from Jesus saying in John 11:26 that those who believe on Him will never die, doesn't that tell us there is more than one kind of death? If not, then He's saying the heart will never stop beating and the lungs never stop breathing.
So Question 2 :) Mustn't He then be talking about a type of death that is indeed ended by believing on Him? Otherwise, wouldn't He be lying?
Let all this spiritual dying aside, I believe we all understand that. Did Jesus die a spiritual death or did He die in the flesh?
I tryed to make and understanding about John 11:26 earlier but it seems that some don't feel that they have to pay the death that Jesus payed. All they have to do is believe on Him and the death that He died is not needed for their debt.
Again show me scripture and verse where it says or implies that Jesus was our SUBSTITUTE.
I never used the word, substitute. You are the one using the word, substitute.
I said that Jesus is our Kinsman Redeemer, and, as such, paid our debt in full. We are no longer slaves to sin, to Satan, or to death. He has bought us back.
Micah, my body might die, but my soul will be alive with Christ--waiting for the end of the age and the redemption of my body.
Or don't you know that he is the God of the living?
Isaiah 44:22
I have swept away your offenses like a cloud, your sins like the morning mist. Return to me, for I have redeemed you."
You are correct that I used the word substitute only for the reason that you say that Jesus died for you, as in your stead. should I be in error on that well then I would like you to make me to understand why you do not have to pay the wage for your sin.
As for being alive, I am very much alive in him and I will be to the age, but in that time in between I will have to pay the wage and die.
"We are no longer slaves to sin, to Satan, or to death. He has bought us back." AMEN and GLORY!
I don't know about my soul, but I do know that I am alive in Christ. It is no longer I that lives, but Christ in me the hope of glory.
And with that hope and glory I am willing to pay my wage.
As for me I will not believe the lie of the serpent, I will believe the Word of the Living God, "DYING YOU SHALL DIE."
Molly, I know this, I have been born anew and knowing this I know that I have died and I am now a new creature, and I am alive in Him
By all accounts I believe that I died, and I live now in the eion to the ages, now and I am thankful and glad!
Yet I know that because I am but flesh and that being so then I must die in the flesh, that is my wage for my sins.
Jesus knew NO SIN.... yet He died for the sins of the world, He is my pattern, He is who I[and all mankind] must follow to be complete.
You say he is your pattern. Can you then die for the sins of the world though you are without sin--like he did?
What does it mean to die for the sins of the world? Does that have any meaning to you?
You think that by your flesh dying you can pay your debt for your sins?
You are paying your own way?
Why do you need a Savior then?
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2011, 08:51:01 AM
You say he is your pattern. Can you then die for the sins of the world though you are without sin--like he did?
What does it mean to die for the sins of the world? Does that have any meaning to you?
You think that by your flesh dying you can pay your debt for your sins?
You are paying your own way?
Why do you need a Savior then?
"You say he is your pattern. Can you then die for the sins of the world though you are without sin--like he did?"
I am not without sin, so I must die to pay the wage of my sins. He died in the flesh, yet He knew that he would live.
"What does it mean to die for the sins of the world? Does that have any meaning to you?"
He was the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. I believe that He died for me and you.Joh 1:29 on the morrow John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, `Lo, the Lamb of God,
who is taking away the sin of the world; "You think that by your flesh dying you can pay your debt for your sins?"
Its a matter of physically dying, that is what I must do, my sins were covered by the Lamb and His willingness to go to the cross."You are paying your own way?"
Now is there sense to that question?"Why do you need a Savior then?"
You are becoming ridiculous.Joh 12:24 verily, verily, I say to you, if the grain of the wheat, having fallen to the earth, may not die, itself remaineth alone; and if it may die, it doth bear much fruit;
Jesus knew that as He went to the Cross, to die He was doing the Fathers will, knowing that He would live again.
Why do you shun dying? What is it that keeps you from realizing that you must die to complete The Walk? I understand and see the spiritual, that I am alive and live, and I am glad. But that does not allow me to just figure that I am better that my Savior.
That I do not have to die physically in this world even tho I know that I am very much alive in Him, I find that as very natural and soulish and full of fear.
Quote from: MicahWhy do you shun dying?
Because he came so that I might have LIFE and have it abundantly--make that SUPER abundantly, because that is what the word means.
I already died Micah. I was baptized into his death. And, I have passed from death to LIFE.
"I already died Micah. I was baptized into his death. And, I have passed from death to LIFE."
Well GLORY me as well!! PRAISE THE LORD!!!!! :dsunny: But that dont change nothing in the natural.[/u]
I'm not going to change it, he's going to change it. Our bodies will be the last part of us to be redeemed.
And, if we are standing on this earth when he returns--they will be instantly changed.
Here's a monkey wrench for you Micah.
I'm sure you are aware that flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God.
And, that the life is in the blood--speaking for these bodies which we currently have.
But, Christ described his resurrected body as flesh and bone.
I had thought about this for a long time as we will all be sharing the blood of Christ--but I think a better way to put it is that the life of our new bodies will be the vivifying Spirit.
yet in my flesh I will see God.
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2011, 09:50:32 AM
I'm not going to change it, he's going to change it. Our bodies will be the last part of us to be redeemed.
And, if we are standing on this earth when he returns--they will be instantly changed.
Here's a monkey wrench for you Micah.
I'm sure you are aware that flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God.
And, that the life is in the blood--speaking for these bodies which we currently have.
But, Christ described his resurrected body as flesh and bone.
I had thought about this for a long time as we will all be sharing the blood of Christ--but I think a better way to put it is that the life of our new bodies will be the vivifying Spirit.
yet in my flesh I will see God.
Ok. lets get back to the subject.
well, here's the point, then--even though we were once far away from God, even enemies of God, having the wrath of God [death] abiding on us, we have now been brought near to him, reconciled, forgiven, and washed clean by what Jesus did on the cross.
And, he didn't do what he did, so that we would be reduced to so much ....dust.
In fact, it's just the opposite.
now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--
--Col 1:22
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2011, 10:23:36 AM
well, here's the point, then--even though we were once far away from God, even enemies of God, having the wrath of God [death] abiding on us, we have now been brought near to him, reconciled, forgiven, and washed clean by what Jesus did on the cross.
And, he didn't do what he did, so that we would be reduced to so much ....dust.
In fact, it's just the opposite.
now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--
--Col 1:22
"we have now been brought near to him, reconciled, forgiven, and washed clean by what Jesus did on the cross."
Amen and Glory to His Name!!!!!
BUT.....
Im just gonna believe the Bilble and the voice of the Lord God... Gen 3:19 by the sweat of thy face thou dost eat bread till thy return unto the ground, for out of it hast thou been taken,
for dust thou art , and unto dust thou turnest back.'
Ok Micah, you can cling to dust if you want.
I'm going to cling to the living God who
died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.[1Thess 5:10]
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2011, 10:54:20 AM
Ok Micah, you can cling to dust if you want.
I'm going to cling to the living God who
died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.[1Thess 5:10]
Molly, I ain't clinging to no dust, when I'm dead and ready for the pit [but then I'm gonna be cremated anyway] and I quit breathing, my body will return to dust and I [my righteousness and my cleansing, justified, made whole) will await the RISING AGAIN.
I will await for that Day when Jesus will awake my sentient spirit and I will be(I can only hope) with the Chosen. And I will be changed to immortal....Deathless. If not, then I will have again the Lake of Fire to go through. But my knees will bow and my tongue will confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2011, 07:41:42 AM
Quote from: jabcat on September 08, 2011, 07:32:15 AM
Let me ask a simple question, again, without delving too deeply;
from Jesus saying in John 11:26 that those who believe on Him will never die, doesn't that tell us there is more than one kind of death? If not, then He's saying the heart will never stop beating and the lungs never stop breathing.
So Question 2 :) Mustn't He then be talking about a type of death that is indeed ended by believing on Him? Otherwise, wouldn't He be lying?
"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
--Mat 10:27
Don't mean to interrupt you guys but the above scripture just popped out at me. Look at that verse it says not to fear those who can kill the body, RATHER FEAR HIM WHO CAN DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL.
This tells me that when we die both our body and soul will be destroyed in the grave, at least for a time.
CHB
the 'new creature' in Christ is a new soul...we are all double souled..inner and outer man...though our outward man perish....the soul that is sinning
will die. Proverbs...capable wife=Jerusalem above...has no fear when cold comes...household is double garmented...wool/linen
example...man with legion...spirit cast into swine/right mind given him....if Jesus hadn't done what He did for that man...when he died both the man's corrupt flesh
would return to the dust...and the legion/evil spirits would have entered another man flesh/grave/dust
soul = intellect[mind] and emotion of creature[in body]...the man with 'legion' had demonic mind and emotion..which proceeds from the active spirit
at work of legion..in a corrupt vessel[flesh] corrupt due to sin/spirit active in body
the new mind[christ] and heart/law written in...is new creature 'in Christ' has it's own soul..and does not sin...the soul that is sinning will die[evil spirit in flesh
exhibiting corrupt image..of which offspring of viper and of your father the devil,and liar and murderer applies]
this all pertains to tokogae....Adam 'knew" Eve/become one flesh with. sin entered and become one flesh with/man
Quote from: CHB on September 08, 2011, 09:20:39 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2011, 07:41:42 AM
Quote from: jabcat on September 08, 2011, 07:32:15 AM
Let me ask a simple question, again, without delving too deeply;
from Jesus saying in John 11:26 that those who believe on Him will never die, doesn't that tell us there is more than one kind of death? If not, then He's saying the heart will never stop beating and the lungs never stop breathing.
So Question 2 :) Mustn't He then be talking about a type of death that is indeed ended by believing on Him? Otherwise, wouldn't He be lying?
"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
--Mat 10:27
Don't mean to interrupt you guys but the above scripture just popped out at me. Look at that verse it says not to fear those who can kill the body, RATHER FEAR HIM WHO CAN DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL.
This tells me that when we die both our body and soul will be destroyed in the grave, at least for a time.
CHB
:bigGrin:
:sigh:
O how I wish I were a theologian, able to rattle off chapter and verse of scriptures. If I were, perhaps I would be able to answer my son, a tortured soul who was born with ADD, bullied through his school years horribly, and who now has so much anger and pain locked in his heart that all he can see in the Father I love is an unfair God. How many times he has thrown it in my face, that if God is all powerful, then how could He have allowed sin to even exist, why would He create sin if He did, indeed, create all things, which has led to so much pain, heartache, and suffering.
To him, the usual answers are trite, empty, and meaningless. Others would consign him to an eternal burning hell for his blasphemy against God, but as his mother, I weep inside for his pain and inability to yet see, and know that God is far greater than I, with mercy beyond comprehension, and I trust Him with my son.
I held the hand of my brother six years ago as he died, after having endured a year of agony from cancer. It was the most horrible thing I have ever lived through, to watch someone I loved so dearly taken from all of us. He had accepted Christ many years before, only to have been kidnapped and beaten and raped, yes a man that was raped, and it sent him into a tailspin. Before his death, he rededicated his life to Christ, but with all the insane doctrines I had studied, it launched me on a journey to understand death, and hell, and eternity. I desperately NEEDED to know, NEEDED assurance, because I could not endure the horror of mentally seeing him in some horrific torment because he did not meet this or that doctrinal rule.
Tentmaker honestly saved my sanity, explaining the depths of God's love and mercy as laid out in scriptures in ways I had never before seen. Through the teachings here and elsewhere, Father has been working healing in my own mind, my soul, my spirit, from the years of hell on earth I've endured myself. Forgive me if I stumble in typing this, as tears flow in sharing my heart with you.
I'm no theologian. I cannot quote chapter and verse at will, though how I wish I could. All I know is that Jesus is my lord and savior, that He paid a price I could never pay, I have been purchased with a dear price, a treasure beyond measure, and there is not one jot or one tittle that I can add to what He has already done from before the foundations of the world.
Yes, my body will die someday, in fact I die daily, and pray that Christ will live in me more fully each day. But my soul has been redeemed by the Redeemer, not because I am worthy, but His love makes me worthy, not that I can brag, but that God in me can be and will be glorified, both here on earth and in the life to come. That is my meager understanding, perhaps it falls far short of a theologian's essay, but it is from my heart, a heart that has been shattered repeatedly in this life but is full of love for my God, my Father, my Redeemer.
How to communicate this to my son, I do not know, but I leave it in my Father's hands. I put my trust in God, I do not know all things, I am but an average person, but I know Father will work it all out.
He has given you understanding. Rest in that peace and grow in His Grace. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 08, 2011, 10:05:49 PM
Quote from: CHB on September 08, 2011, 09:20:39 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2011, 07:41:42 AM
Quote from: jabcat on September 08, 2011, 07:32:15 AM
Let me ask a simple question, again, without delving too deeply;
from Jesus saying in John 11:26 that those who believe on Him will never die, doesn't that tell us there is more than one kind of death? If not, then He's saying the heart will never stop beating and the lungs never stop breathing.
So Question 2 :) Mustn't He then be talking about a type of death that is indeed ended by believing on Him? Otherwise, wouldn't He be lying?
"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
--Mat 10:27
Don't mean to interrupt you guys but the above scripture just popped out at me. Look at that verse it says not to fear those who can kill the body, RATHER FEAR HIM WHO CAN DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL.
This tells me that when we die both our body and soul will be destroyed in the grave, at least for a time.
CHB
:bigGrin:
That verse says he 'can' not that he will.
Man, you guys are going to be really suprised when you find out we don't need this body to live.
Molly I believe that is very well understood, you just dont get it.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 21, 2011, 10:13:03 AM
Molly I believe that is very well understood, you just dont get it.
What don't I get?
Quote from: Lindy on September 21, 2011, 09:22:30 AM
:sigh:
O how I wish I were a theologian, able to rattle off chapter and verse of scriptures. If I were, perhaps I would be able to answer my son, a tortured soul who was born with ADD, bullied through his school years horribly, and who now has so much anger and pain locked in his heart that all he can see in the Father I love is an unfair God. How many times he has thrown it in my face, that if God is all powerful, then how could He have allowed sin to even exist, why would He create sin if He did, indeed, create all things, which has led to so much pain, heartache, and suffering.
To him, the usual answers are trite, empty, and meaningless. Others would consign him to an eternal burning hell for his blasphemy against God, but as his mother, I weep inside for his pain and inability to yet see, and know that God is far greater than I, with mercy beyond comprehension, and I trust Him with my son.
I held the hand of my brother six years ago as he died, after having endured a year of agony from cancer. It was the most horrible thing I have ever lived through, to watch someone I loved so dearly taken from all of us. He had accepted Christ many years before, only to have been kidnapped and beaten and raped, yes a man that was raped, and it sent him into a tailspin. Before his death, he rededicated his life to Christ, but with all the insane doctrines I had studied, it launched me on a journey to understand death, and hell, and eternity. I desperately NEEDED to know, NEEDED assurance, because I could not endure the horror of mentally seeing him in some horrific torment because he did not meet this or that doctrinal rule.
Tentmaker honestly saved my sanity, explaining the depths of God's love and mercy as laid out in scriptures in ways I had never before seen. Through the teachings here and elsewhere, Father has been working healing in my own mind, my soul, my spirit, from the years of hell on earth I've endured myself. Forgive me if I stumble in typing this, as tears flow in sharing my heart with you.
I'm no theologian. I cannot quote chapter and verse at will, though how I wish I could. All I know is that Jesus is my lord and savior, that He paid a price I could never pay, I have been purchased with a dear price, a treasure beyond measure, and there is not one jot or one tittle that I can add to what He has already done from before the foundations of the world.
Yes, my body will die someday, in fact I die daily, and pray that Christ will live in me more fully each day. But my soul has been redeemed by the Redeemer, not because I am worthy, but His love makes me worthy, not that I can brag, but that God in me can be and will be glorified, both here on earth and in the life to come. That is my meager understanding, perhaps it falls far short of a theologian's essay, but it is from my heart, a heart that has been shattered repeatedly in this life but is full of love for my God, my Father, my Redeemer.
How to communicate this to my son, I do not know, but I leave it in my Father's hands. I put my trust in God, I do not know all things, I am but an average person, but I know Father will work it all out.
What a beautiful and touching testimony. God bless you dear sister. Lord bring peace to this your gentle, humble servant. In Jesus' name.
Quote from: jabcat on September 21, 2011, 10:56:30 AM
What a beautiful and touching testimony. God bless you dear sister. Lord bring peace to this your gentle, humble servant. In Jesus' name.
Thank you, Jabcat, from my heart.
I hesitated to jump in, as I am new here, and I realize that this forum has a lot of ongoing discussions that evaluate scripture and interpretations. It did seem to me, though, that it is all too easy for we humans to get so caught up in the details that we miss the forest for the trees.
When I read the scriptures, whether OT or NT, my pov is that, from cover to cover, they are the revelation of my lord and savior, Jesus Christ. He is the main character, not me, not my son, not my neighbor down the street. It is HE lifted up that draws all of humanity. And as HE is revealled, so also is our Father in all His love and mercy revealled to us.
That includes His defeat of death before it ever entered our reality as we see it here.
My understanding may be flawed,as I said I am no theologian. I pray, I read the written words of those who came before me, and I listen to my heart. In my heart, as my Father has worked His healing, the words of Jesus resonate that I have already passed from death to life in accepting Him now, in my lifetime here on Earth. The grave has no victory, death has no sting, because Christ did what He said He'd do, and God's word does not return to Him void. God does not fail to do what He said He'd do.
I stumble, every day. I fail. God does not. Jesus does not. While the body sleeps in death, my soul will be rejoicing in God's presence, I will freely bow my knees and my head and proclaim Jesus is Lord. That is the simple faith given to me.
Lindy always remember theologians haven't figured it out either. If they did there would be only one Christian denomination.
:winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 21, 2011, 12:18:27 PM
Lindy always remember theologians haven't figured it out either. If they did there would be only one Christian denomination.
:winkgrin:
:laugh2: well said! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Lindy on September 21, 2011, 11:28:03 AM
Quote from: jabcat on September 21, 2011, 10:56:30 AM
What a beautiful and touching testimony. God bless you dear sister. Lord bring peace to this your gentle, humble servant. In Jesus' name.
Thank you, Jabcat, from my heart.
I hesitated to jump in, as I am new here, and I realize that this forum has a lot of ongoing discussions that evaluate scripture and interpretations. It did seem to me, though, that it is all too easy for we humans to get so caught up in the details that we miss the forest for the trees.
When I read the scriptures, whether OT or NT, my pov is that, from cover to cover, they are the revelation of my lord and savior, Jesus Christ. He is the main character, not me, not my son, not my neighbor down the street. It is HE lifted up that draws all of humanity. And as HE is revealled, so also is our Father in all His love and mercy revealled to us.
That includes His defeat of death before it ever entered our reality as we see it here.
My understanding may be flawed,as I said I am no theologian. I pray, I read the written words of those who came before me, and I listen to my heart. In my heart, as my Father has worked His healing, the words of Jesus resonate that I have already passed from death to life in accepting Him now, in my lifetime here on Earth. The grave has no victory, death has no sting, because Christ did what He said He'd do, and God's word does not return to Him void. God does not fail to do what He said He'd do.
I stumble, every day. I fail. God does not. Jesus does not. While the body sleeps in death, my soul will be rejoicing in God's presence, I will freely bow my knees and my head and proclaim Jesus is Lord. That is the simple faith given to me.
Hi Lindy, welcome to the forum.
I certainly am not a theologian, just an average person who loves to discuss the word and wait for God to reveal things to me. I know nothing as I ought to know.
Lindy, are you saying that you believe the body dies but the soul continues to live? Would you please explain that a little bit more? If this is true why do we need a resurrection?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on September 21, 2011, 06:41:26 PM
Hi Lindy, welcome to the forum.
I certainly am not a theologian, just an average person who loves to discuss the word and wait for God to reveal things to me. I know nothing as I ought to know.
Lindy, are you saying that you believe the body dies but the soul continues to live? Would you please explain that a little bit more? If this is true why do we need a resurrection?
CHB
Hi CHB, thanks for the welcome!
I AM saying the body dies but the soul which has been redeemed by the blood of the lamb lives on. The resurrection to come is of receiving our new glorified bodies, as Christ Himself showed His disciples. At first, they did not even recognize Him, then He showed them the nailprints in His hands, the wound in His side, they physically touched Him. It was both spiritual AND physical.
This is my understanding, that the only begotten Son of God paid the price none of us could pay, bought us with that precious price, His blood, and we have the hope of being likewise fully renewed all in all in God's due course according to His plan. When God does such a work, He does not do it just in part, He does it big, in style, reclaiming ALL for Himself, including an upgrade, so to speak, on our bodies that He created to start with. Death lost its sting and the grave lost its victory, because we will always be with Him, our Lord, and not even death can separate us now. His resurrection was God's sign to us all of His victory over spiritual AND physical death.
Those who do not accept Christ in this lifetime are not forever lost, because all souls belong to God regardless. They are the ones that will sleep until God's appointed time to reconcile all unto Himself.
I do believe we have to exercise caution when considering spiritual things, lest we fall into the trap of new age thinking, that it is all just spiritual and then wind up pursuing a path leading to seeing ourselves as gods. I've seen a lot of folks on youtube going down that path, talking about Christ Consciousness as though it were a mental exercise you do to raise yourself to a new level. Works of man. I have said to those who believe this way that if you want Christ consciousness, then look to Jesus, for HE IS the Christ, the annointed one, and you cannot truly and honestly separate Jesus from Christ, can't have one without the other.
We are, as God created us, part of Him, spiritual beings, with soul/mind/emotion living in this physical realm in physical bodies. He gave unto us the great responsibility to be the caretakers of His creation. We fell, we failed, but He foreknew and foreplanned to correct all of this according to His will, to set right all that went wrong. I believe that, in ways we cannot even begin to imagine, what Jesus did at Calvary went beyond redeeming us, He redeemed everything, every atom of God's creation that had been tainted by the stain of sin and rebellion, snatching the keys of death and the grave, breaking those bonds, and in due course, God will renew all things. New heaven, new earth, new bodies.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I do believe the great work done by Christ was not limited to the spiritual realm, but reaches outward and inward and upward and downward to every aspect of creation. Not sure if I am explaining myself well, I'm trying, it's hard for me to put into words what resonates deep in my heart!
14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
--Luke 21
Quote from: Molly on September 21, 2011, 10:11:47 PM
14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
--Luke 21
I suspect, Molly, that on this, you and I pretty much agree? :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 07, 2011, 04:42:40 PM
Quote from: Ross on September 07, 2011, 02:29:50 PM
The first lie in the scriptures is when the serpent tells Eve she will not die if she eats of the tree of knowledge.
Back then that was a lie. Did that change when Jesus was resurrected?
Quote1 Cor 15;53,54 " For this corruptible needs must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and this MORTAL shall clothe itself with immortality. But whensoever this MORTAL shall clothe itself with immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that death has been swallowed up vitoriously;"
I really see your point Ross (and agree). But having read several death/soul sleep threads that some of the counter arguments are:
- God is the God of the living.
- People who die (after Christ) just walk trough a door and immediately get that robe of immortality.
- Spirit goes to heaven and body follows later.
For me there are several anchor points:
1] How can Jesus' be a first fruit is millions OT people where resurrected before Him.
---> If it's just about believers in Christ then it's very well possible several believers died before Jesus' resurrection.
2] Revelation speaks of several resurrections. Including believers. Resurrection is always from a death. So they must be dead. (who are the souls under the altar?)
3] No man ever entered heaven before Jesus.
:dontknow:
Revelation is a book of signs and symbols, the Words that Jesus spoke are Spirit, John was in the Spirit when he sawthese signs.
Also it says the "souls" under the alter, I am told that the soul is
appetite, mind, desire, emotion, passion?
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2011, 04:41:09 AM
He was delivered over to death for my sins. What else is there to pay?
Isaiah 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
"He was delivered over to death for...." (Molly) Joh 10:17 `Because of this doth the Father love me, because
I lay down my life, that again I may take it;
Joh 10:18
no one doth take it from me, but I lay it down of myself; authority I have to lay it down, and authority I have again to take it; this command I received from my Father.'
Jesus laid down His life for the "sin of the world," Joh 1:29 on the morrow John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, `Lo, the Lamb of God,
who is taking away the sin of the world; but Molly you and I have sinned on an individual basis, so the wage for our individual sin is death, yes?
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 22, 2011, 02:38:00 AMAlso it says the "souls" under the alter, I am told that the soul is appetite, mind, desire, emotion, passion?
I'm wondering on what that (appetite etc) is based. They must be good things because those souls were slain/beheaded for Christ. They are saints.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 22, 2011, 09:04:50 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 22, 2011, 02:38:00 AMAlso it says the "souls" under the alter, I am told that the soul is appetite, mind, desire, emotion, passion?
I'm wondering on what that (appetite etc) is based. They must be good things because those souls were slain/beheaded for Christ. They are saints.
Well thats what just about everyone here tells me a soul is, appitite (etc):sigh: I know a soul is a living creature, a person, those souls I would reason are those who were beheaded.
Micah, regarding your comment...individual basis........Father doesn't look at it in that manner,brother...He concluded all in sin...sin entered through one man
just as righteous standing before God does...it's all about inheritance...the blessing or the curse.
1 Cor 3;22......ALL THINGS ARE YOURS,WHETHER PAUL OR APOLLOS OR CEPHAS OR THE WORLD OR LIFE OR DEATH OR THE PRESENT
OR THE FUTURE-ALL ARE YOURS,AND YOU ARE OF CHRIST,AND CHRIST IS OF GOD
the temple tax........from whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes-from their own sons or others?. From others,Peter answered...
THEN THE SONS ARE EXEMPT[do we pay?]
Quote from: sheila on September 22, 2011, 03:04:39 PM
Micah, regarding your comment...individual basis........Father doesn't look at it in that manner,brother...He concluded all in sin...sin entered through one man
just as righteous standing before God does...it's all about inheritance...the blessing or the curse.
1 Cor 3;22......ALL THINGS ARE YOURS,WHETHER PAUL OR APOLLOS OR CEPHAS OR THE WORLD OR LIFE OR DEATH OR THE PRESENT
OR THE FUTURE-ALL ARE YOURS,AND YOU ARE OF CHRIST,AND CHRIST IS OF GOD
the temple tax........from whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes-from their own sons or others?. From others,Peter answered...
THEN THE SONS ARE EXEMPT[do we pay?]
You bet!
Perhaps totally unconnected but the possible link just popped in my head when reading Micah's post. (I hope I got the details right)
Jewish priest made sacrifices during the year. The also sprinkled some blood under the Altar. The covered the blood with dirt. They did that several times a year (no idea how often).
I think the sacrificed where for the nation. God didn't forgive the sins until the day of Atonement.
Just throwing a ball for others to play with :soccer:
Micah (all) what if those sins under the altar are the sleeping souls? The souls where told to sleep until Atonement Day.
What if appetite, mind, desire, emotion, passion are the sins the Jewish Priests stored under the Altar until the day of Atonement?
I'm fully aware this is the total opposite of "they are Saint" as I wrote earlier.
I think Revelation contains a lot of ancient Jewish rituals. Just like the Lake of Fire is the Laver (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/lake_fire_molten_sea_glass_laver_9507.msg123219.html#msg123219) a temple attribute my guess the same is true for the Altar. Just like LoF has the same function as the Laver I think the Altar in heaven has a very close resemblance to what it meant to the ancient Jews.
Time to shoot the messenger :robinhood: :laughing7:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 21, 2011, 12:18:27 PM
Lindy always remember theologians haven't figured it out either. If they did there would be only one Christian denomination.
:winkgrin:
Now my friend and brother you have stated a TRUTH that we who believe look over and just keep on going accepting the freedom that has been given in the American belief, which I find great.
America has citizens, who I will call the "christian voice," believing that America was founded on a thinking that the Founding Fathers were Christians; I do not accept or believe that. This nation was founded by people who believe in a Supreme being and built on Bible and the moral integrity of the Ten Commandments, and a belief in God, Providence, the Creator...but not Jesus Christ.
As far as I can, tell theologians have a great deal as to how this is brought forth. It was theologians that have brought forth the meaning of "hell" in our dictionaries, "forever" as well. Theologians have brought forth the hypothesis of a Trinity, some as Schofield entertain a doctrine of a "physical rapture," as well as the doctrine that Jesus died "instead" of us. Yes, America has the freedom of speech, which I find a great part of America's growth and strength. But I digress.
Quote from: Molly on September 21, 2011, 10:13:54 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 21, 2011, 10:13:03 AM
Molly I believe that is very well understood, you just dont get it.
What don't I get?
Rom 6:23
for the wages of the sin is death, and the gift of God is life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.
You don't believe that you have to pay for your sins. Jesus died for the "sin of the world," He did not die for your sins or my sins. Jesus died, as the Lamb slayed from the foundation of the world. He payed the debt of the law, He did not die instead of us, we, you and I must pay the wage or sin and that is death. yes we are born from above[born again] we are now walking in the spirit, we are a new creature, we now live in Christ and and He in us. But to say that we are excluded from the wage we must pay, is perhaps fear. Yes, I reason it is fear of something that has been defeated and we don't reason yet we, you and I must pay for our sins. The ransom was payed, but we, each individual, must pay the wage of our sin(s).
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 23, 2011, 06:54:55 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 21, 2011, 10:13:54 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 21, 2011, 10:13:03 AM
Molly I believe that is very well understood, you just dont get it.
What don't I get?
Rom 6:23 for the wages of the sin is death, and the gift of God is life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.
You don't believe that you have to pay for your sins. Jesus died for the "sin of the world," He did not die for your sins or my sins. Jesus died, as the Lamb slayed from the foundation of the world. He payed the debt of the law, He did not die instead of us, we, you and I must pay the wage or sin and that is death. yes we are born from above[born again] we are now walking in the spirit, we are a new creature, we now live in Christ and and He in us. But to say that we are excluded from the wage we must pay, is perhaps fear. Yes, I reason it is fear of something that has been defeated and we don't reason yet we, you and I must pay for our sins. The ransom was payed, but we, each individual, must pay the wage of our sin(s).
Too late, Micah, I have already received the free gift of eternal life.
You can't preach death to me.
1 Peter 2:24, "and He Himself
bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin
and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."
Quote from: Molly on September 23, 2011, 07:05:39 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 23, 2011, 06:54:55 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 21, 2011, 10:13:54 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 21, 2011, 10:13:03 AM
Molly I believe that is very well understood, you just dont get it.
What don't I get?
Rom 6:23 for the wages of the sin is death, and the gift of God is life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.
You don't believe that you have to pay for your sins. Jesus died for the "sin of the world," He did not die for your sins or my sins. Jesus died, as the Lamb slayed from the foundation of the world. He payed the debt of the law, He did not die instead of us, we, you and I must pay the wage or sin and that is death. yes we are born from above[born again] we are now walking in the spirit, we are a new creature, we now live in Christ and and He in us. But to say that we are excluded from the wage we must pay, is perhaps fear. Yes, I reason it is fear of something that has been defeated and we don't reason yet we, you and I must pay for our sins. The ransom was payed, but we, each individual, must pay the wage of our sin(s).
Too late, Micah, I have already received the free gift of eternal life.
You can't preach death to me.
1 Peter 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."
Like I said you don't get it.
I think it's pretty simple and easy to understand.
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
--Isa 53:5
"healed"
H7495
רפה רפא
râphâ' râphâh
raw-faw', raw-faw'
A primitive root; properly to mend (by stitching), that is, (figuratively) to cure: - cure, (cause to) heal, physician, repair, X thoroughly, make whole. See H7503.
Romans 4:25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.--1 Peter 2:25
Gal 6:5 for each one his own burden shall bear.
Just how does one do that? Just how do I bear my own burden, if Jesus bore it for me? How can I put that off of Jesus?
Rom 7:24 A wretched man I am ! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord; so then, I myself indeed with the mind do serve the law of God, and with the flesh, the law of sin.
Christ died for us, not instead of us.
There is beautiful song that I used to sing, "He Payed A Debt I Did Not Owe," I used to sing that song, I no longer do, He did not pay a debt I did not owe. I owe the debt and I must pay that debt, and that debt is death for my sins.
JESUS DIED FOR THE SIN OF THE WORLD, He did not die for my sins, that is a debt I must pay. And because of Him I am able to pay that debt. For I know that through and by Him I am alive, in and through Him.
Simple. Thank you, Martin Luther for making it possible for me to read it for myself.
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. [Rom 3:28]
Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. [Rom 5:11]
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: [Rom 5:1]
And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory. [Rom 8:30] :bgdance:
Okay, you are exempt. You do not have to pay the wage for your sins. Lets just leave it at that. You are above the law, thats okay by me. :HeartThrob: :cloud9:
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 23, 2011, 08:40:34 AM
Okay, you are exempt. You do not have to pay the wage for your sins. Lets just leave it at that. You are above the law, thats okay by me. :HeartThrob: :cloud9:
He has fullfilled the law for me, Micah. You think I could do it myself? You think my death would buy my life? What can I give for my soul?
Yes, he died for the sin of the world, which is how we believe in universal reconciliation.
But, he died especially for those who believe, because we who are born out of due time are justified by faith.
If I am justified by him already, what can you or anyone accuse me of?
What shall we say about such wonderful things as these? If God is for us, who can ever be against us? [Rom 8:31]
"But, he died especially for those who believe, because we who are born out of due time are justified by faith."
Just where in the Bible do you find that?
He fulfilled the LAW, as His Father had planned, Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
No one can accuse you of anything, you are justified(innocent, never did anything), yet you sinned(for all have sinned) and the wages for that is death.
We are born again,we are in Christ, we are a new creature...but the old creature must pay the wage. You and I will agree on much, but the wages for "our sins" is still death.
Gal 6:5 forfor each onehis own burden shall bea
I guess their are some who don't fit into that equation.
We have to continue to abide in him, Micah. Or do you think we are justified by our own works?
"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
For my yoke is easy to bear, and the burden I give you is light."
--Mat 11:29,30
Quote from: Molly on September 23, 2011, 09:23:11 AM
We have to continue to abide in him, Micah. Or do you think we are justified by our own works?
"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
For my yoke is easy to bear, and the burden I give you is light."
--Mat 11:29,30
Of course we must abide in Him. Our works have nothing to do with it, unless it is works by us that He is working.
His burden is light, His yoke is easy Praise the Lord. Yes, and I/we find rest in Him.
You will find no arguement or debate from me on that. :bigGrin: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 23, 2011, 09:28:24 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 23, 2011, 09:23:11 AM
We have to continue to abide in him, Micah. Or do you think we are justified by our own works?
"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
For my yoke is easy to bear, and the burden I give you is light."
--Mat 11:29,30
Of course we must abide in Him. Our works have nothing to do with it, unless it is works by us that He is working.
His burden is light, His yoke is easy Praise the Lord. Yes, and I/we find rest in Him.
You will find no arguement or debate from me on that. :bigGrin: :HeartThrob:
So we have this other heavy burden to carry alone besides his light burden? And because of that we will surely die?
Is that what you're preaching?
Burden? Do you mean that we must pay for our sins? Is that the burden?
Don't you see that because of Christ's sacrifice for the sin of the world that our burden is light and His yoke is easy.
We have given it to Him. The Lord God said in Genesis 2 that should man eat of the tree in the midst of the garden man would surly be dying.
That was the price that had to be paid. Jesus died for that sin, now we must follow His footsteps and pay our debt. I see no burden that we carry, we have Jesus our Comforter, our Rock, our Savior, our Redeemer, our kinsman, our older Brother.
He has showed us the way., we must keep our eye on Him.
As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.[Psa 103:12]
Isaiah 43:25 "I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.
Let Micah die for his sin..as he has judged..since Christ's sacrifice is not enough :mshock:
Quote from: sheila on September 23, 2011, 04:45:54 PM
Let Micah die for his sin..as he has judged..since Christ's sacrifice is not enough :mshock:
I'm not completely sure about what Micah is saying but in OT times God had two types of forgivenes (lack of better words)
Forgivenes for individual sins and forgiveness for the sins of the nation (the bit I wrote about the day of Attonement in post #72). Needles to say people are part of that nation.
ww.....I wrote that simply to bring Micah to his senses to what he was actually proposing. Jesus said 'AS YE JUDGE YE SHALL BE JUDGED"........
but.....GOD IS GREATER THAN OUR HEARTS
1 John 3;20-21 THIS THEN IS HOW WE KNOW that we belong to the truth,and how we set our hearts at rest in His presence
whenever our hearts condmn us. FOR GOD IS GREATER THAN OUR HEARTS AND HE KNOWS EVERYTHING.
Micah's heart is condemning him,but God and Jesus aren't :HeartThrob:
The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.
--Rom 8:16
2 Corinthians 6:18 "I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."
and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.[Luke 20:36]
Isaiah 43:18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.
19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.
20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.
21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.
44Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
--Mat 13
Isaiah 43:18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.
19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.
20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.
21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.(Molly)
I totally agree with the above statements. And I Glory in His Greatness!!!! :HeartThrob:
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not a God of dead men, but of living.'
Rom 14:9 for because of this Christ both died and rose again, and lived again, that both of dead and of living he may be Lord.
Can we not see that God is the God of the living, but He is LORD of both the living and the dead.
God is but the title, and that God is the LORD of ALL men, dead and living.
Christ did not die as our subsitiute, but as our companion and associate; not instead of man, but with Him and for Him.
Christ did not die to save us from the penalty of sin, but from sin itself.
Christ did not die that we might not die, but to deliver us out of a death in which we were already involved.
Should we not see this, then whatever or all of what He has given me to say should be silenced.
Oh, how I love Jesus! Jesus is the Sweetest Name I know! Jesus my SAVIOR and KING!
Co 15:54 Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory."
1Co 15:55 Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?
1Co 15:56 Now the sting of Death is sin, yet the power of sin is the law."
1Co 15:57 Now thanks be to God, Who is giving us the victory, through our Lord Jesus Christ."
There is so much I disagree with Micah7:9 but the main thing is how he is singling out Molly for his own stupid debate.
Micah7:9 believes that we must all die as the payment for our individual sins. Two people who didn't die that we know of: Elijah and Enoch. These two put a wrench in such a theory. Most likely everyone will die and be buried but it is certainly not in order to make payment for sin.
The reason that we know Jesus died for our sins is vast. I'm just going to state a few principles. Jesus is the vicarious sacrifice. He is the lamb. He is how we enter the holy of holies. Just like the Levites would sacrifice a lamb for their sins before entering the holy of holies on behalf of all Hebrews, Jesus was our sacrificial lamb. It is not the lamb who sinned. It is a vicarious sacrifice with the very definition meaning it is for others (us). We also see this concept in Sodom and Gomorrah where God agrees with Abraham to spare the land for all inhabitants if 10 righteous can be found. It was an agreement for the sins of many to be dismissed and to live vicariously through the 10. Evidently there weren't 10 :laughing7:
Jesus' sacrifice was not purely physical. He was the pivotal point in time. He took on all sin and thus suffered the wrath of God. Just look at how he sweated blood, almost begging not to drink the cup (as in vile of wrath in Rev.) If not for this I believe we would have been utterly destroyed. I think it also significant that if Micah7:9 were correct, this would have been a good time for God to just kill us all for our sins like he did Sodom and Gomorrah. However, we see that the sacrifice is vicarious for us to have eternal life. What is this life. I think Molly has quoted a lot of supporting scripture already.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 14, 2011, 05:08:25 PM
And Apoc, "However, we see that the sacrifice is vicarious for us to have eternal life." For Jesus to have been my vicarious(substitute) then it is all a waste of our time. Jesus died FOR me, He DID NOT die instead of me.
Obviously we are reading the same Bible but having different interpretations. Or I should say that I also read the Syriac version and Greek for some perspective. I think I have scene your posts to have been referencing multiple lexicons as well. I certainly believe the main message is that he died and was subjected to wrath, the payment of sin, instead of you. What is the waist of time you speak of? Your deeds? Your obedience? Your self righteousness? I don't get what you are stressing. I read the whole string and you certainly get hung up on trying to interpret "death". And how can you not believe that Elijah did not die. You do believe in the chariot of fire? If your only rebuttal to the wrench I pointed out is "poppycock" then that is a good sign for your introspection to start right there. I think it likely you could be wrong if all you can think of is labeling it religious and, hahaha, poppycock. Really? Is that a method of scholarly exploration? If these supernatural histories are poppycock then how strenuous it would be to believe in anything about the Bible. It is completely about the metaphysical poppycock. :icon_flower:
Not the end of the world (as far as I know :laughing7:) but maybe just do the favor of re-working this line please?
"When you can come up with more than "poppycock" about your beliefs.."
It's based on the following;
"4. Calling out any member's views/opinions as stupid, dumb, crazy etc. viz. insults.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/rules_and_faq/what_you_may_not_do_2693.0.html"
We can all remember to post "as I understand", "I disagree", "I believe", etc. :thumbsup:
Thanks.
Done :laughing7:
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 08, 2011, 08:36:20 AM
Molly, I know this, I have been born anew and knowing this I know that I have died and I am now a new creature, and I am alive in Him
By all accounts I believe that I died, and I live now in the eion to the ages, now and I am thankful and glad!
Yet I know that because I am but flesh and that being so then I must die in the flesh, that is my wage for my sins.
Jesus knew NO SIN.... yet He died for the sins of the world, He is my pattern, He is who I[and all mankind] must follow to be complete.
He is the WAY, and the only pattern saying: "Pick up your cross and follow me."
Where?
To our death.
Paul says: "I die daily."
To what?
He dies to his sin.
So that: "It is not I that live but Christ."
Oh yes! We must die!
And Christ can not die so that we may live forever in Him even and the firstfruits will do it right here and, hopefully, soon!
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 07, 2011, 08:57:53 AM
The Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death.
Rom 6:22 And now, having been freed from the sin, and having become servants to God, ye have your fruit--to sanctification, and the end life age-during;
Rom 6:23 for the wages of the sin is death, and the gift of God is life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Why is it that the christian religion or belief teach, that we do not have to die, to pay that wage to receive salvation?
And if we dont have to pay that sentence/price, what is our wage to pay for sin?
I read the thread, thought to share some of my personal understandings.
For starters I do understand the concept of universal restoration, and I do believe in this theology as well. But there are a lot of things that I see differently in regards to this universal restoration.
To address the point in the OP. It seems simple to me, if we eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then we will die, and if we eat from the tree of life, then we will live.
I neither relate death or life in this as pertaining to the physical life and death that we experience on earth. But I solely relate this to spiritual life and death. Adam died the day he ate from the tree, he was banished form the presence of the Lord, and that is the same as saying that he no longer could experience the life that comes with being in the presence of the Lord. He was a dead man walking, and his sin caused this same spiritual death to go to work in all of humankind that would be born into the physical world.
We inherited this death from Adam, and not one human being has ever not experienced this spiritual death, including Christ Himself.
Now my understanding of universal restoration is as follows. The reconciliation of humankind to God began with the resurrection of faith, and this resurrection occurs at the moment a person is born again from above, and is transformed from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. This born again experience of faith, is the resurrection from death to life, This is when the individual clothes themselves with immortality and is born of incorruptible seed.
The promised 'resurrection' that is spoken of in the NT and in the OT, is a resurrection of Israel. Israel as a nation according to the physical realm would not experience this specific resurrection. They would be put to death, and sown as the natural body(singular) and the church of Christ, the spiritual body(singular) is what became resurrected, at the time of the natural body's death. This was fulfilled in AD 70.
So the full restoration of all things was fulfilled in AD 70, and the body of Christ(the church) is the body(singular) that was resurrected to the place of honor before the Lord's throne.
There is no promise of a perfect worldly empire under the reign of a physical Christ, He stated that His kingdom was not of this physical world, and whoever understands this, knows that His kingdom is and always will be a spiritual kingdom.
Israel's sin was not paid for at the cross, please bear with me on this. The cross of Christ was the ultimate payment for the sins of Israel, but the fulness of God's atonement towards Israel was not fulfilled until Jerusalem was destroyed. It is through the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem that Jacob's sin would be fully atoned for. (see Isaiah 27)
The cross of Christ is how God judges all things that is for certain. But the full judgment of righteousness towards humankind as a whole, by and through the cross, could only be fully established when the temple and Jerusalem was destroyed. The purpose in their destruction is for bringing an end to a theocracy that was structured within the ministry of death. By destroying the theocracy and ministry of death. Death itself would be destroyed. The accuser of the brethren, which is the law, was cast down when the theocracy of Israel was put to death.
So that day that Paul spoke about,(Acts 17) when God would judge the world in righteousness through His sin offering, and no longer in sin, as it was done previously through Adam's disobedience,, would be when the ministry of death and theocracy of Israel, that was bound within the parameters of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, was completely destroyed.
As I also understand, after the restoration of all things is completed, there is still sin and sinners existing outside of the kingdom of God, (see Revelation 22:15)
As far as the death of the body, I understand that all men will be judged by fire, and the purpose of this fire is to burn away the chaff, the wood the stubble, and preserve the gold, silver and precious metals. God's fire is not to destroy the soul of the person as if to discard it as useless to God. God's fire is to purify the man in judgment and bring him into the submission of Christ, that his knee will bow and confess Jesus as Lord.
So in this realm of the physical world, those who have Jesus have life and those who do not have Jesus do not have life.
But having that lack of experiential faith that causes a person to remain in death and outside of the presence of God's life in Christ, is a condition of the unbeliever, and it always will be.
However God is judging that unbelieving person in righteousness through His sin offering and not through Adam's sin any longer. All men fall into the righteous judgment of Christ's sin offering, however we can never experience this righteousness from God unless we come to that place of saving faith.
There is no need for any man to be hungry, as the table is prepared and offered to all, but if we don't eat, then we will always remain hungry.
sorry if I rambled on about things that seem off topic, but they aren't off topic in regards to how I understand, the mercies of God extended to all of humankind.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 08, 2011, 11:21:15 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2011, 10:54:20 AM
Ok Micah, you can cling to dust if you want.
I'm going to cling to the living God who
died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.[1Thess 5:10]
Molly, I ain't clinging to no dust, when I'm dead and ready for the pit [but then I'm gonna be cremated anyway] and I quit breathing, my body will return to dust and I [my righteousness and my cleansing, justified, made whole) will await the RISING AGAIN.
I will await for that Day when Jesus will awake my sentient spirit and I will be(I can only hope) with the Chosen. And I will be changed to immortal....Deathless. If not, then I will have again the Lake of Fire to go through. But my knees will bow and my tongue will confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!
:cloud9: I don't know how I got directed to the 2nd page of this thread by clicking on the title, but when I did, this is the first post I read. And so, I feel to share something.....
When I first came to the Lord, so many things were shaking me in regards to what I believed, that the first night I was shown there was no rapture, I was crying literally out to the Lord, saying, "Everything I thought was a lie is the truth, everything I thought was the truth is a lie, what's happening to me?"
And He said, "I'm returning you to the dust."
And I thought and said out loud, "Oh crap, it's worse than I thought; I'm dying now, too???!!!"
With a lot of study, I discovered that dust and cloud are similar in the Hebrew language mindset, ie. the smallest particle of something, much in line with the Greek word "atomos", where we get our word "atom", which is used for the twinkling of an eye scripture translation.
Add to that, He wants to meet us in the clouds, He told Moses they were to meet Him in the cloud, who He falls upon is ground to powder (dust).
So my point is, to be carnally minded is death. We don't have to do anything unusual to die, we just have to be "normal".
BUT; if we seek to think as He thinks, pressing in for the mind of Christ and stop assuming things mean what we think they mean, ONLY life and life more abundantly can be the result. My :2c: Blessings....
Ok now you have provoked me to post my dream, that God wanted me to share.
Thank you
Quote from: thinktank on November 18, 2011, 08:48:10 PM
Ok now you have provoked me to post my dream, that God wanted me to share.
Thank you
Please do.
Quote from: Molly on November 18, 2011, 08:54:38 PM
Quote from: thinktank on November 18, 2011, 08:48:10 PM
Ok now you have provoked me to post my dream, that God wanted me to share.
Thank you
Please do.
Posted :happygrin: