Did God really command this stuff?

[ed]

What is the explanation?

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

[Seth]

This may have happened literally or maybe not. Prophecies can be mysterious that way. I tend to understand the prophecies for a spiritual perspective and leave it open as to whether it happened literally or not. I don't recall an actual event like this happening in the Bible even though its prophesied. This is not to minimize the fact that God has commanded harsh things in the Bible has is his right to do as the Potter. Maybe it happened in a way people didn't expect.

[shawn]

I think this is a very good question Ed...and I like what Seth has said about it.  I have also read here (don't remember the author) that to a hard headed, violent and uneducated people, God spoke in ways they could understand.

Personally, how God revealed himself to us in the Old Testament vs how He revealed Himself to us through Christ is difficult for me to understand.

[shawn]

BTW: I made the mistake of watching The Bible series with my kids...thinking hey this should be safe.  My girls haven't expressed much desire for things of God since.  I tried to explain those things the best I could, but it's hard to explain how it's not ok for us to hurt people...and we should love people...and the violence in the Bible that was said to be commands of God.  Very tough to reconcile.

[ed]

This may have happened literally or maybe not. Prophecies can be mysterious that way. I tend to understand the prophecies for a spiritual perspective and leave it open as to whether it happened literally or not. I don't recall an actual event like this happening in the Bible even though its prophesied. This is not to minimize the fact that God has commanded harsh things in the Bible has is his right to do as the Potter. Maybe it happened in a way people didn't expect.

That is one of the ways that I could use to reconcile it to the God of love.  I've been reading J Preston Eby's series on Revelation and that is the rout that he goes with Revelation.

I had the same thought...........did they actually do it?


My other thoughts put me a little further down the heresy road then his site has in mind.

The question looks a lot like Satan's question in Genesis "did God really say?"

Questioning God or questioning God's prophet is not allowed in the religious mind, I've always found it to be the way to get answers.

Thanks for your reply.

.

[ed]

This may have happened literally or maybe not. Prophecies can be mysterious that way. I tend to understand the prophecies for a spiritual perspective and leave it open as to whether it happened literally or not. I don't recall an actual event like this happening in the Bible even though its prophesied. This is not to minimize the fact that God has commanded harsh things in the Bible has is his right to do as the Potter. Maybe it happened in a way people didn't expect.

Good point.  Jesus fulfilled the Law and Prophets.

[ed]

What is the explanation?

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Looking again at the verse God is not telling his People to do that....................He is just saying that it will happen?   That is the verse isolated of course.

.

[Seth]

I had the same thought...........did they actually do it?

I always think about when the Pharisees brought the adulteress to Christ and said that the Law required them to stone her. Makes you wonder, why hadn't they already done that if the Law called for it?

I think it's because nobody really followed the Law. Yes, sometimes in zeal, in parts of the Bible, they did. But I think mostly, they only did what they could handle, and lived in guilt for not doing everything. One of the reasons they didn't kill Jesus is because the people would have turned against them.

That's what would have happened if anyone had followed through on a consistent basis, and the Lord knows this. If anyone had truly followed the Law's harsh demands their society would have been a daily bloodbath, but they shrank away from it, because it was too heavy.

[Seth]

That takes me back bit to the Law. It shows that Jesus was not "under" the Law, or bound to its demands, because he never called for death for all the sinners that the Law demanded. He knew all their thoughts, and all their secrets, but though the Law called for capital punishment, he never followed that. He was free from the Law because he was righteous through the Spirit, and therefore not a debtor.

[micah7:9]

I must ask, why do we labor on such things? We know from reading of David, that his God was bloody, we know that David himself, falling in step, was a warrior for a bloody God....really why do we even consider otherwise? The cannons of the OT were bloody and by command. :2c:

[rosered]

 
  I recall the shock and horror of reading Jeremiah 7   and 11, 14  for the first time   and still in my carnal mindset   
''Do not pray for this people'' !!  I could not understand Gods anger ,    when I had just read Jesus Words ,''pray for your enemies''    , the confusion    consumed me
I needed answers   to resolve this conflict  in Gods word ??




Jer 7:16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.
Jer 11:14 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble.
Jer 14:11 Then said the LORD unto me, Pray not for this people for their good.


Its was all about'' Idolatry''  and and how it moved God to jealousy .

   In carnal terms  many   have killed  their spouses in fits of rage and betrayal

I dont know how to  justify  murder    I just know it happens  in  the mortal    realm    alot

  But its God whom kills and makes alive   and made a way  though HIS SON  ,  even in His  death

Victory   over  death  and all  mankind will be saved though HIM

That was the comfort  to help    understand   it and the peace   we now have   to   speak it knowingly .
    so Glory to God !!

[ed]

I must ask, why do we labor on such things? We know from reading of David, that his God was bloody, we know that David himself, falling in step, was a warrior for a bloody God....really why do we even consider otherwise? The cannons of the OT were bloody and by command. :2c:

Working on my theology is a hobby of mine.

Apologetics appeals to me.

It is not for everyone.  I learn a bit here and there by asking questions that are too hard for me on forms like this. 

You guys are my favorite flavor for sure.  God is love.

.

[Seth]

I must ask, why do we labor on such things? We know from reading of David, that his God was bloody, we know that David himself, falling in step, was a warrior for a bloody God....really why do we even consider otherwise? The cannons of the OT were bloody and by command. :2c:

We don't labor on them. We seek to understand them.

[rosered]

I must ask, why do we labor on such things? We know from reading of David, that his God was bloody, we know that David himself, falling in step, was a warrior for a bloody God....really why do we even consider otherwise? The cannons of the OT were bloody and by command. :2c:

Working on my theology is a hobby of mine.

Apologetics appeals to me.

It is not for everyone.  I learn a bit here and there by asking questions that are too hard for me on forms like this. 

You guys are my favorite flavor for sure.  God is love.

.

Ask and it shall be  given the Lord wants us to ask for His Wisdom 

   and  we all have tons of questions
   ,  I have asked and still ask for lots of   answers !!   
Ed , your  a   precious one , you know that !   

  we all ask !   more  hunger and thirsting after His righteouness  to be filled !! 

We seek to understand them

   Amen to that Seth !!   :friendstu:    we share our daily bread  given from the Lord above      to anyone who asks !!   the Bread of Heaven  and water of Life that flows freely  :Peace2:


    Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


Jhn 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

[Seth]

 :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

I'll hang with ed, he is learning. The OT is whelmed with blood, "the soul of the flesh is in the blood..." Lev. 17:11. ... for it is the blood which maketh atonement for the soul.
It's all about blood. I am just offering my opinion. And by a stroke Seth has a point. Still
Rev 19:13  and he is arrayed with a garment covered with blood, and his name is called, The Word of God.

[Seth]

Yeah there is blood in the OT. And violence. The question is, which does God command and which actually happens? The Law called for punishment without mercy. But did that actually happen? I don't think so. It's not to say there is no blood in the Bible, just how is it to be understood? That's what I got from Ed's question. Did the prophecies in Jeremiah or Isaiah happen in the way we expect? If so, where and when? John saw blood on the garment in Revelation, bit does that make it literal? I certainly don't take th lake of fire literally, so why would the blood be so?

[rosered]

Yeah there is blood in the OT. And violence. The question is, which does God command and which actually happens? The Law called for punishment without mercy. But did that actually happen? I don't think so. It's not to say there is no blood in the Bible, just how is it to be understood? That's what I got from Ed's question. Did the prophecies in Jeremiah or Isaiah happen in the way we expect? If so, where and when? John saw blood on the garment in Revelation, bit does that make it literal? I certainly don't take th lake of fire literally, so why would the blood be so?

   Yes  good point  again Seth and Micah  too

  But Its like ,  do we  see with carnal eyes or the eyes of the Spirit
  the view    is as different as night and Day   :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

Should the OT be literal.....what say you? "....... which does God command and which actually happens?"

"The Law called for punishment without mercy. But did that actually happen?" " I DON'T THINK SO." What?
From Genesis to Malachi there was blood shedding and you are gonna separate Jeremiah and Isaiah's episodes/prophesies? The God of the OT desired blood and He commanded a lot of it to be shed, I am sure the God of the OT new that shed blood had value, so much value that His Son gave His blood. Men[humanity] in the OT were violent and shed blood, the God of the OT was violent and shed blood. Issac was ready to shed blood. Yes, the wonder is the comprehension of the blood. I am not arguing just offering the argument why so much blood letting in the OT from a a God we know is love.

[Seth]

Let's separate a few things. Question: did God command capital punishment for adultery? Yes. Was that commandment obeyed by the people? What do you think? Why didn't the Pharisees kill the adulteress according to the Law, rather than bring her to Jesus? Why wasn't it already done.

Yes God commanded violence, but but not all of what he commanded actually happened. Some did.

[micah7:9]

This is out of the discussion, "Why didn't the Pharisees kill the adulteress according to the Law, rather than bring her to Jesus?"
We are talking OT, and your reference is NT.
If God commanded capital punishment for adultery, I will say yes, it was done.

Now you will have to explain this statement..."Yes God commanded violence, but but not all of what he commanded actually happened. Some did."
Are you saying that they disobeyed their God? As far as I am concerned by your speak, the OTwould possibly be allegory and or parables. Could that be? I believe so.

[Seth]

This is out of the discussion, "Why didn't the Pharisees kill the adulteress according to the Law, rather than bring her to Jesus?"
We are talking OT, and your reference is NT.
If God commanded capital punishment for adultery, I will say yes, it was done.

When they brought her before Jesus, the Law was still in effect. It's not out of the discussion because it shows that they disobeyed the Law. The whole point Jesus was making was that they were hypocrites. They followed the parts of the Law that they liked, but disregarded others.

Are you saying that they disobeyed their God?

Of course. Wasn't God constantly rebuking them for that?

As far as I am concerned by your speak, the OTwould possibly be allegory and or parables. Could that be? I believe so.

No, that's not what I am saying. I am saying that what God actually commanded to happen with regard to violence is much less than people think. I just finished reading the historical books of the OT, and there are many acts of violence which are not commanded by God. People think it was one big God sanctioned gore-fest, and that's simply not true.

[micah7:9]

O well, I rest. :Pray:

[eaglesway]

We live in an enlightened time, an age and a resurrected Messiah away from the Old Testament. Altho the world is still rife with evil and violence, the consciousness of man has been awakening about the evil of violence wherever the gospel feet hav trod- even tho those places may not now be "shining examples" of what we consider to be tru Christianity.

Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is like a measure of leaven hidden n three bushels of dough until the whole was leavened.

We look for signs and events, and there are some, but all the while the creation is being redeemed, it is more (imo)like a dawn breaking the darkness in the consciences of men. We cannot conceive of the brutality that was the norm throughout the world in ancient times. It so grieved God  that in Noah's day(if you believe that historically) He wanted to start over because the level of violence and depravity was so great. He regretted that He had made man. Hmmmm. Oh well, what is God experiencing that He could regret having made man? Did He forknow that He would regret having made man? Why bother with the actual events?

lol I don't kno but, a good example is

When God callled Jehu by Elijah to ride against Ahab and Jezebel, he anointed Jehu to take Israel back from the wicked by force and his armies won and Ahab was killed and the prophecy against Jezebel that the dogs would lick her bones in the street were fulfilled by Jehu, BUT THEN.....

Jehu got a BIG IDEA of his own and laid a trap for the people and said, "AHAB SERVED BAAL LITTLE, I WILL SERVE BAAL MUCH" and commanded that the priest of Baal and all the people meet to worship in the temple of Baal. There, once they were all in, he barred all the doors and set the place on fire killing every last worshipper and preist of Baal.

He must have been an ETer or EDer.

My point?

God judged Jehu for "the bloodshed of Jezreel". God called him and ordained him and anointed him to do a thing but then He judged Jehu as to HOW HE OBEYED and in what spirit he obeyed and he was weighed in the balance and found wanting.

The violence by which Jehu purged Israel of Ahab and Jezebel was God's idea and He made it happen.

The violence by which Jehu judged the worshippers of Baal offended God. It was not God's idea. God judged Jehu for his presumption. God's plan was to set the people free from evil overlords so the priests and prophets of God could restore the faith within the people, "Let my people go that they may worship me". SO Jehu was arrogant and did not understand that God's intention was nt vengence and retribution, IT WAS PURGING AND RESTORATION.

For the creation was subjected to vanity not of its own will, but by the will of the one who subjected it with the forward view that the same creation will be delivered from futility into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Light shines out of darkness, transformation brings freedom from chaos. Its all way beyond me :o)

We think death is the ultimate horror. To kill the ultimate evil. I just don't personally see it that way. Sometimes to stand by and watch evil committed and say or do nothing is an even greater evil. God allows the ways of the wicked to come upon their own heads and sometimes it comes violently. If God can take the breath from Annanias and Saphira for lying to the Holy Spirit Why should I be shocked and amazed if He used Israel to rain down upon the wicked (and I am talking hyper wicked, sacrificing their children to gods of earth wind and sky, worshipping gods of fornication and lasciviousness of all kinds in order to get more return on their seed- whoops, that sounds like America to me ;o)

Listen, if everyone here believes that God is in total control of everything, then why is the violence of the OT any more horrifying or shocking than the violence of WW2 and the holocaust, or the holocausts of Cambodia or Rwanda or anywhere else today?

If He is in total control now then He is no more offended by violence now than He was then rite? God has allowed the ruthless murder of millions in every generation. If you have read the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire, the scope of the worlds violence in the first 4 or 5 centuries after Christ is just mind-boggling. And that was the civilized world.

IMO The OT doesnt hav to be parables because the violent nature of the stories offends our consciousness.

We just abhor death and we forget that God appointed death as the judgment of the wicked, which includes all, which is why all die and Jesus Christ died to set all free, from sin and so from death and chaos.

Death doesnt freak God out. He invented it.

[WhiteWings]

Why didn't the Pharisees kill the adulteress according to the Law, rather than bring her to Jesus? Why wasn't it already done.

Only her father, husband and oldest son were legally allowed to judge her. (It's about the dowry)

Note#1: They in John 8:10 are father (Nicodemus)  and husband (Joseph of Arimathea)
Note#2: She is Mary Magdalene.
Note#3: Jesus was an adopted into one of the richest families of history.

Of course they didn't seek understanding or justice, but a stick hit with.


BTW, this little passage is far greater importance that it seems. It's also about  cutting off the possibility for a future legit royal throne of Israel.

:2c: