http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/noncanon/ot/pseudo/revesd.htm
2 Esdras (The Apocrapha) :eek:
It's almost like Mary K Baxter/Bill Weise revisited :eek: :eek: :BangHead:
A couple of different UR authors do lean in that direction, that 2Esdras may have been useful in introducing eternal separation into Christianity. Jan Bonda comes to mind, in his book "The One Purpose of God." Perhaps Randy Klassen as well. I know he quotes Bonda, but can't remember the specific quote(s) right now. Others say that it came from Persia into Christianity from Zoarastrianism at around the same time that Premillenialism started coming into Christianity as a minority point of view, somewhere between the second and fourth centuries. I'm inclined to think that though 2Esdras definitely had it's part in being a very sadistic drama, that it came into Christianity from Egyptian myths and cults. Augustine is often called Augustine of Hippo, which I believe is in Egypt if I remember right. Some branches of Christianity, such as some of the Pentecostal ones, will advise against having certain occultic literature in your house because of the possibility of introducing oppressive spirits into your home.
Even if someone can make a case for Alexandria having had a Christian Universalist Seminary, I'm inclined to believe that some writings are a bit too dark to just have around "in the library" of a school, even if a generation or two passes that doesn't really take 'em seriously. All you need is for someone associated with Christianity who is not strongly grounded in the Word of God to have a thought planted in their minds that perhaps in the end the free will of man was stronger than the Blood of Christ, or that God had some contrary intent that was stronger than the Blood of Christ. Give that thought, feeling, doubt, and/or question a few generations to pass down ever so subliminally and you've got the iniquity of eternal separation in the Church if a really strong Universalist didn't take the Bible and stomp it out early in the game.
As far as I know the inclusive saving grace of all was first written about 2000 years ago...
Titus 2:11:
11For the grace of God has (A)appeared, (B)bringing salvation to all men,
:winkgrin:
These people draw near with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me, and their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men.(Is. 29:13)
Perhaps the ET people have taken this verse out of context?
I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me (Jer. 32:40)
Here is the whole book in it's entirety
http://www.carm.org/lost/2esdras.htm
I'm inclined to think that this is eerily similar to the doctrine hinted at/preached in the pulpits today (Immortality of the soul, immediate punishment/rewards after death, the joy of the righteous at the fate of the unrighteous, few saved versus majority unsaved etc)
Question is, where did this book originate from :footmouth: :omg:
the doctrine of hell is also found in the book of Enoch, im not sure but the Esra apokalypse might be from 400 AD or at least quite late, so i read it. the Petrus apokalypse might be older? but i´m not sure.
uses he tartarus or gehenna for hell? isn´t there written about an endless aion? this would condradict the bible speaking of more then one aion to come and it would also be a further prove that aion never meant eternity.
but its a "good" sign, if the hell teachers must use the apocryphicals to still hold their point of view, the same i saw on a german forum. claiming that Enoch or Esra speaks of an endless aion to come.
the imagination of punishment in the netherworld might come from the greek orphics, i´ve read about this, the pharisees seemed to have similar opinions.
Quote from: Dallas on July 29, 2008, 12:17:00 AM
As far as I know the inclusive saving grace of all was first written about 2000 years ago...
Titus 2:11:
11For the grace of God has (A)appeared, (B)bringing salvation to all men,
:winkgrin:
I think the wording is particularly interesting. It doesn't say, "bringing the
opportunity for salvation to all men, it just says "bringing salvation to all men". :happygrin:
If I bring you some food it doesn't automaticly mean you will eat it...
I give you the opportunity to eat.
My interpretation is (from more clear verses) is that eventually everyone will take the food.
But AFAIK all ETs say that most people don't take the offer and are toast.
does anybody know when 2. Esdras was written?
This link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Esdras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Esdras)
says between 90AD and 218AD
ewwww, Nazarenes!
Quote from: Andromeda_Organa on December 30, 2008, 01:00:39 AM
ewwww, Nazarenes!
'splain, please :happygrin:. I happen to like Nectarines...
Quote from: sven on December 02, 2008, 07:35:20 PM
the Petrus apokalypse might be older? but i´m not sure.
I was reading Peter's Apocalypse and IIRC at one point the inhabitants of heaven petitioned for the release of those in hell and in some way the petition was granted. I also remember reading that this is one thing that helped it become deemed 'heretical'.
Quote from: martincisneros on December 30, 2008, 12:30:29 AM
This link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Esdras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Esdras)
says between 90AD and 218AD
this book scared me a bit, cause it uses gehenna to denote hell, this is why i asked
but this book also speaks of an endless aion if i´m not wrong, which is further proof that aion itself doesnt mean eternity
may it also be, that the 2. Book of Esdras inspired Islam? it might also be the reason why the Koran accuses the Jews believing Esra to be Gods son?
has anybody ever read this? its strong stuff and a bit scaring :mshock:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/works/files/hades.htm
it is similar to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 31, 2008, 06:13:40 AM
Quote from: Andromeda_Organa on December 30, 2008, 01:00:39 AM
ewwww, Nazarenes!
Paul was of them I thought
Acts 24:5 For we have found this man [a] pestilent [fellow], and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:
Even Jesus was called one
Mat 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
I'm referring to the legalistic Protestant denomination.
Quote from: jabcat on December 30, 2008, 02:47:44 AM
'splain, please :happygrin:. I happen to like Nectarines...
So, in other words, she doesn't hate you for having that bag of Nectarines behind the desk in the drawer.
right
to come back to 2nd Esdras/4th Esra
I found this, you have to scroll to page 120
http://books.google.de/books?id=TA-vt200dd0C&pg=PA118&lpg=PA118&dq=eis+ton+aiona+chronon&source=bl&ots=57zMtEstQ7&sig=sK6r4lE_4b-l0cF_UoMbdqzlheY&hl=de&ei=83NsS_bHLZKc_AbUw_S2Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=eis%20ton%20ai
Quoteiudicium autem solum remanebit. et veritas stabit et fides convalescet, 35 et opus subsequetur et merces ostendetur. et iustitiae vigilabunt et iniustitiae non dormibunt. 36 et apparebit lacus tormenti et contra illum erit locus requietionis, et clibanus gehennae ostendetur et contra eam iucunditatis paradisus. 37 et dicet tunc Altissimus ad excitatas gentes: videte et intellegite quem negastis vel cui non servistis vel cuius diligentias sprevistis. 38 videte contra et in contra, hic iucunditas et requies et ibi ignis et tormenta. haec autem loquetur ad eos in die iudicii. 39 haec talis quae neque solem habet neque lunam neque stellas, 40 neque nubem neque tonitruum neque coruscationem, neque ventum neque aquam neque aerem, neque tenebras neque sero neque mane, 41 neque aestatem neque ver neque aestum, neque hiemem neque gelum neque frigus, neque grandinem neque pluviam neque ros, 42 neque meridiem neque noctem neque ante lucem, neque nitorem neque claritatem neque lucem, nisi solummodo splendorem claritatis Altissimi, unde omnes incipiant videre quae anteposita sunt. 43 spatium enim habebit sicut ebdomada annorum.
this is the Latin version, this book is only preserved in Latin, the KJV seems to omit this verses???, it seems to be spoken of a judgment with the duration of a week of years!
"a judgment with the duration of a week of years"
WOW.
6 days shall we labor; the 7th is the Lord's Day
Come quickly Lord Jesus.