In Revelation it states; Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen... And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached onto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities... Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire...
Some say Babylon is mainstream Christianity. Some say it's a business/world system that's somehow against God. Some say it's generally 'confusion'.
What do you think it is?
What then do you consider the plagues of it to be; the death, mourning, and famine; burned with fire? Some say that it's literal, some even say it has to do with 9/11. Many say it's all spiritual and/or figurative...if that's your take, then what do you think it means, i.e., the system, the plagues, the destruction? Future, past, not time bound, etc? Somehow a revelation of what Jesus is doing in each individual?
When God called me out of mainstream religion, He clearly used a writing in the Forward of the Christian Bible (1991) regarding coming out of Babylon as an institutionalized religious system, to confirm His desire for me to break away from denominationalism. However, for all I know, it could have various related meanings, or a general meaning of anything rooted in confusion that's against God's will. I don't know. What are your thoughts?
QuoteSome say Babylon is mainstream Christianity. Some say it's a business/world system that's somehow against God. Some say it's generally 'confusion'.
I would say it's a reprensetation of sinful living.
Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Purple and scarlet point to religion leaders....? (Like the Rich Man)
:cloud9: Babylon is the state of dwelling where the spirit of Jezebel reigns as queen in charge of increasing your flesh/kingdom of darkness, as opposed to New Jerusalem/heavenly mother who is to birth the Son/kingdom of light/Christ in you.
Therefore, you can leave Babylon (as the church realm who is ruled by her or whatever form), but still have Babylon ruling in you. Blessings....
I like both of your thoughts on this :thumbsup:.
Quote from: jabcat on July 02, 2009, 08:10:50 AM
In Revelation it states; Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen... And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached onto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities... Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire...
Some say Babylon is mainstream Christianity. Some say it's a business/world system that's somehow against God. Some say it's generally 'confusion'.
What do you think it is?
What then do you consider the plagues of it to be; the death, mourning, and famine; burned with fire? Some say that it's literal, some even say it has to do with 9/11. Many say it's all spiritual and/or figurative...if that's your take, then what do you think it means, i.e., the system, the plagues, the destruction? Future, past, not time bound, etc? Somehow a revelation of what Jesus is doing in each individual?
When God called me out of mainstream religion, He clearly used a writing in the Forward of the Christian Bible (1991) regarding coming out of Babylon as an institutionalized religious system, to confirm His desire for me to break away from denominationalism. However, for all I know, it could have various related meanings, or a general meaning of anything rooted in confusion that's against God's will. I don't know. What are your thoughts?
For me, When I first saw that and it really clicked to "Come out of her", I knew God was talking about the religious man made systems, for me anyway.
God called me out of it going on about four years now, though I did not realize that is what was happening. I just knew I began to absolutely sick of church as usual. I also knew deep down I was not called to 'church as usual' except to go only as God lead me, but I for some reason could never participate in church other than as a lay member. I never wanted to get involved really, I just knew I was not meant to be a part of it in that way. As a lay member, God began to make me TIRED of the entire system of even going to visit churches.
Right now today, I can't go to church unless the Lord leads me to go, that is the only way.
Very good. That's a blessing, thanks.
:cloud9: Me too, Spokenfor.......when He stopped ME, two Sundays in a row the car wouldn't start. As soon as it was too late to go, it started without a problem. Didn't get it until the second Sunday, that perhaps I needed to check in with Him, LOL....... :mshock: Then followed a teaching about the false coverings being removed from off our heads. Never looked back. Blessings....
Never was faced with that situation because I was not raised up in a traditional church setting and was never moved by a desire to join one though I had went with friends to their church a few times I was not moved to say the least!. What I do remember in my formitive years were informal gatherings
out on family farms maybe two times a year where people were discussing spiritual things and the gospel as it related to everyday life and to us as inividuals, then we had a big pot luck picnic and refreshments, this was not often but these were very spiritualy meaningful to me as a child.
Now when Looking at that and the differance I saw as a child between those gatherings on the farms and the atmosphere in the churches I had been invited to go to, there was a differance of night and day, the church seemed like pretend, not real, it seemed false, make believe, folks didn't seem to be themselves but put on a Sunday best appearance and it was not spiritualy fullfilling but instead rather dead in spirit.
Later in life I realized what I had seen in those early years at those churches was a false unity, people smiling outwardly but crying inside, there was no joyous spirit there, it was Babylon!
At the farm gatherings we shared a few times a year folks were real, they expressed concern for one another, they cared and would give the shirt off their back to help those in need, and they believed and trusted in prayer and not the formal repeated empty sayings that are used by so many churches as prayers, and the gathering was a joyous time inwardly and outwardly!
The Babylon within? Some folks have that burned out of them early in life because of hardships and the school of hard knocks, I know in my younger years I went through some seasons where a little boasting started creeping in and as time went on things happened that took the wind out of my boastful sails in short order and I am in a much more restful place in the body now than Babylon could ever give us for very long, if at all it is not lasting,
Peace,
Fire Walker
Maybe it means: Leave off trying to reach God (tower to 'heaven') through religion (a set of creeds). A humble heart God will not despise. All arrogant boastful religion is uncleanness. God has put confusion to stop the construction of the false tower (all denominations have their own lingo).
:cloud9: Hi firstborn........where ya been? :dontknow: Welcome back :thumbsup: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on July 04, 2009, 07:11:24 AM
:cloud9: Me too, Spokenfor.......when He stopped ME, two Sundays in a row the car wouldn't start. As soon as it was too late to go, it started without a problem. Didn't get it until the second Sunday, that perhaps I needed to check in with Him, LOL....... :mshock: Then followed a teaching about the false coverings being removed from off our heads. Never looked back. Blessings....
lol! That is funny, :laughing7: God does have a sense of humor. He will stop it if it is not want he wants you to do. I have a few stories like that myself. The most recent one is this...
Just about a month ago a cousin of mine asked if I wanted to go to her church and I said, "Yeah, pick me up in the morning". After she asked and left I said, "mmm, now I know I really don't want to go"..Then I said, "Ok, Lord, if you want me to go wake me up in the morning on time"...Well, I could not go to sleep ALL night until 9 am that morning, I was up all night literally..and church started at 10 am..Well, that was that..lol!....Didn't make it...She called and was like, "Are you going, if so start getting dressed"..I was like, "Girl, I am just getting sleepy and going to sleep, I've been up all night and just could not sleep.. I am not going"....
The truth is I usually know when I am suppose to go the Lord will already let me know ahead of time. I was just planning to go without his leading. I think I kinda just wanted to go that one time because that is the church I got saved in about ten years ago and I kind of wanted to visit..then again, I knew deep down I was not to go.
Quote from: Cardinal on July 02, 2009, 06:20:44 PM
:cloud9: Babylon is the state of dwelling where the spirit of Jezebel reigns as queen in charge of increasing your flesh/kingdom of darkness, as opposed to New Jerusalem/heavenly mother who is to birth the Son/kingdom of light/Christ in you.
Therefore, you can leave Babylon (as the church realm who is ruled by her or whatever form), but still have Babylon ruling in you. Blessings....
That is true Cardinal. I am glad that I was never indoctrinated and God did not have much to get out of me except the belief in ET. I never could get down with a lot of the teaching anyway. Plus, I was not raised in church all my life. I did end up in church for a period of 4 years as a child, but I even knew then something was wrong, they were extremely religious and I knew that was not right...I can't tell you how I knew it, but I knew it.....But, that is where the seeds of who Jesus was was planted in me at least......Praise the Lord for that!
:cloud9: Hi Spokenfor........I did the same thing a couple of years later. I made it in there,though, but as soon as praise and worship started and I was focused on Him, He spoke to me so loud it was almost audible, "Make this the last time." :mshock: Don't have to hit ME with a brick, do He, LOL? :mblush: :winkgrin: Blessings....
Quote from: firstborn888 on July 04, 2009, 01:45:13 PM
Maybe it means: Leave off trying to reach God (tower to 'heaven') through religion (a set of creeds). A humble heart God will not despise. All arrogant boastful religion is uncleanness. God has put confusion to stop the construction of the false tower (all denominations have their own lingo).
Amen, firstborn!
Babylon (a mixture of flesh/spirit) is Syncretism, a supporter of tyranny with the fusion of idolatry, the silly delusions of a foolish woman or "mystical Babylon," that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth. (Revelation 17:18).
Waxing Warm, not cold or hot, a place of captivity; sin and corruption.
The merging of two or more inflectional forms; heaven/hell, male/female, Spirit/flesh, good/evil, Truth/fallacy, etc., ... adding to, or taking away.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6).
Walk in the spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary – one to another.
The flesh wants to commit fornication and adultery; but the Spirit desires to be pure.
peacemaker
(Just got back from drift-diving in Kauai, Hawaii, living in the realm of the Spirit by the Grace of God.)
"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8).
Quote from: firstborn888 on July 04, 2009, 01:45:13 PM
Maybe it means: Leave off trying to reach God (tower to 'heaven') through religion (a set of creeds). A humble heart God will not despise. All arrogant boastful religion is uncleanness. God has put confusion to stop the construction of the false tower (all denominations have their own lingo).
Yep.
Quote from: Cardinal on July 04, 2009, 07:52:53 PM
:cloud9: Hi Spokenfor........I did the same thing a couple of years later. I made it in there,though, but as soon as praise and worship started and I was focused on Him, He spoke to me so loud it was almost audible, "Make this the last time." :mshock: Don't have to hit ME with a brick, do He, LOL? :mblush: :winkgrin: Blessings....
Hey Cardinal.. :icon_flower:
LOL!..I believe it... :laughing7: He will make it clear to you. And he will hit you with a brick if necessary... :laughing7: I tell you the discipline of God can be painful. Whenever I do something he has told me not to, boy do I get it... :sigh: BUT, you know what, I learn...
It is like he lets you get away with certain stuff for a while, :director: but as you grow up and know better, he expects more out of you and you can't get away with what you use to.... :gwink:
Quote from: Cardinal on July 04, 2009, 02:58:43 PM
:cloud9: Hi firstborn........where ya been? :dontknow: Welcome back :thumbsup: Blessings....
Working, transfigurating, non-conforming - you know, the
regular stuff :Sparkletooth:
:cloud9: :laughing7:
Quote from: firstborn888 on July 05, 2009, 06:54:13 AMWorking, transfigurating, non-conforming - you know, the regular stuff :Sparkletooth:
The regular stuff indeed. Same here!
Quote from: martincisneros on July 05, 2009, 07:33:30 AM
Quote from: firstborn888 on July 05, 2009, 06:54:13 AMWorking, transfigurating, non-conforming - you know, the regular stuff :Sparkletooth:
The regular stuff indeed. Same here!
With us, I'll have to include 'veganating' :grin:
Quote from: firstborn888 on July 05, 2009, 07:38:19 AMWith us, I'll have to include 'veganating' :grin:
Oh yeah! God's talking to me about that subject again. Mainly about the raising of the dead of animals inherent in the Hosea 2:18; Jeremiah 31:27-28 covenant that got inaugurated on September 11, 2001 according to Isaiah 30, Mark 5, and other passages. Mainly waiting on Him, about it, though.
willieH: Greetings, my dear brother James... :hithere:
Quote from: jabcat on July 02, 2009, 08:10:50 AM
In Revelation it states; Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen... And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached onto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities... Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire...
Some say Babylon is mainstream Christianity. Some say it's a business/world system that's somehow against God. Some say it's generally 'confusion'.
What do you think it is?
"Whatever it (Babylon) is" ...the
WORD of God several TIMES, calls it "
Great"... so it must be something entirely HUGE... and likely "GREAT" in other aspects as well as SIZE...
Also, whatever it (Babylon) is"... "God's people" are
IN IT... and are being called
OUT of it...
Why would God be calling a "business and world SYSTEM" which is about the worship of MONEY and WAR, ...and that has been erected by MAN, ...as "
GREAT"?
I think the Christian RELIGION, which bears the HOLY name of
CHRIST, and preaches Him as SAVIOR, can be the only true basis for this "adjective"...
Yes Babylon is likely LARGE, and likely MASSIVE as the word "Great" -- MEGAS [#G3173] implies... but there is more to this than just the meaning of a word in any language... (IMO) It is BIGGER than that, for GOD in His
WORD to call her "GREAT" so many times... it has to do with SPIRITUAL matters...
For whether we preach
CHRIST in surrounding "TRUTH" or in surrounding "FALSEHOOD"... preaching Him as SAVIOR and SON of GOD... is a "GREAT" thing... :dontknow:
Quote from: jabcat on July 02, 2009, 08:10:50 AMWhat then do you consider the plagues of it to be; the death, mourning, and famine; burned with fire?
These "plagues" are SYMBOLIC... not literal... Plagues SYMBOLIZE an
UNHEALTHY state... and Christianity, by preaching HELL and ET... "Babylon" is definitely SPIRITUALLY unhealthy...
Don't know everything, but it appears apparent to me, that in
Rev 18:4 -- it states that ALL nations have drunk the wine of her FORNICATION... and the KINGS of earth are waxed RICH through the abundance of her delicacies...
(IMO) This speaks of the largest Religion in the World, which continues to grow... and indeed is become FILTHY RICH as her fallacies are spread like a spiritual cancer in the hearts of men worldwide...
The FIRE which is spoken of in the Revelation is GOD Himself... for He is a CONSUMING FIRE... That "fire" consumes UNHOLINESS, and UNGODLINESS... and ALL must traverse it for its purpose is to CONSUME that which is CONTRARY to LIFE and CONTRARY to our well being...
The Plagues of Babylon shall be her SHAME, ...taking before the throne of GOD on Judgment day, ...her unhealthy presentations of HELL and Torment and FEAR, her cursings of all others outside of her... and the FIRE she shall face, is her sorrow for NOT listening to the
WORD... which has CALLED to her, and once she had found Salvation for herself, ...she willingly has turned unto that
WORD, a deaf ear... and preaches death and/or torment for all those that hear HER not...
I go to another forum (Non -- "UR" believers)... and they either believe in HELL, ET or Annhilation... often persecuting me and the few others which believe in the Salvation of ALL... :sigh: But as did John the Baptist... I shall remain a voice crying in the wilderness, in hope one or two might hear and "come out of her"... :Pray:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
wow, these posts really blessed me!
thanks to all of you on this thread :HeartThrob:
Good stuff!
Sheila
Eternal tormentors and Annihilationist within All Religions:
The tone (attitude) or pitch (us and them) stressed within the religious contexts of their teaching is another gospel, not one of hearing His Voice – which is music to the ears of the one who listens with an open heart, not a closed mind.
"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that you be not partakers of her sins..." (Revelation 18:4)
Many things, atrociously, have been said and done in the name of God, search the Scriptures. And still are to this day, through self-serving, greedy people who want domination over others, but was never instituted by God himself. So much for the fleshly horse of destruction; the false prophets and goddesses of Religion.
"Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (Genesis 6:5)
There is an abominable taste in their garments. And this is perhaps one of the reasons for the female principle; the bride of Christ who are prepared by His Spirit to teach, putting balance (intimacy) back in the relationship, and evicting the harlot as we mortify the flesh in spite of those in power that continue to ravage all of humanity through fear and annihilation.
May [it] all be washed clean in His Righteousness, for there is NO GREATER LOVE.
peacemaker
:cloud9: Amen, PC......
well,
let's see who Babylon was first...
Babylon developed from the city of Babel which Nimrod, the advesary of God, built...
Nimrod ruled by violence, greed, submitting all nations to tyranical rule...and all the rulers thereafter followed suit (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome...until today)
Babylon became the ancient world power...monetarily, militarily, religiously, and "culturally"...seen as the most advanced "civilization"
they invented the usary system of banking which we still have today (charging interest on money lent)...contrary to the biblical "system" of not charging interest on lent money...they also established a military alliance with other nations to stay in power, and subverted and annihilated anyone who stood in their way
so in short, babylon became the "anti-God"...anti-Christ world system...the totalitarian antithesis of what God intended for mankind
now, let's forward to today...
which power/s in the world are furthering the ideals of babylon...now "Mystery" babylon because it is not so obvious at first glance?...
If you're honest with yourselves, you might not like the answer...
Wow , this thread is a blessing ! thanks one and all for adding to it and Jab for posting it
I realize that the last of Gods wrath is DONE specifically for Baylon [ False Church] and those 7 vials the angels [messengers] pour out
I see Babylon as seeking the power and glory for herself and abuse this greatly , when in fact the power and glory is the Lords
Babylon ,''the confusion by mixing'', to me it is the dead works and living works being done . works of the law /flesh and grace .
How confusing is that ?
It does remind me of Jesus telling us to make the TREE good and the fruit good or make the tree corrupt and its fruit corrupt , a tree is KNOWN by its fruit
seems to be why we are to go on into perfection/maturity by Faith IN HIM, in Hebrews we can see how the new covenant does this
In chapter's Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
and it describes how :icon_flower:
and why here :HeartThrob: by Jesus making the pure sacrifice we by faith believe this is done for us and has given us a matter of clean conscience , new start and begining with Him reigning in our minds and hearts :cloud9:
Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Aside from the spiritual applications here is a pull quote from something I just read this morning:
"Anglican priest, Rev. Sam Pascoe, sums it up in a very short version of the history of Christianity that devolved into harlotry. He said: 'Christianity started in Palestine as a fellowship; it moved to Greece and became a philosophy; it moved to Italy and became an institution; it moved to Europe and became a culture; it came to America and became an enterprise.'"
Here's a link to the rest: www.godfire.net/apocalypse_12.html
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 22, 2009, 05:35:15 PM
Aside from the spiritual applications here is a pull quote from something I just read this morning:
"Anglican priest, Rev. Sam Pascoe, sums it up in a very short version of the history of Christianity that devolved into harlotry. He said: 'Christianity started in Palestine as a fellowship; it moved to Greece and became a philosophy; it moved to Italy and became an institution; it moved to Europe and became a culture; it came to America and became an enterprise.'"
Here's a link to the rest: www.godfire.net/apocalypse_12.html
Wow. So true.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 22, 2009, 05:35:15 PM
Aside from the spiritual applications here is a pull quote from something I just read this morning:
"Anglican priest, Rev. Sam Pascoe, sums it up in a very short version of the history of Christianity that devolved into harlotry. He said: 'Christianity started in Palestine as a fellowship; it moved to Greece and became a philosophy; it moved to Italy and became an institution; it moved to Europe and became a culture; it came to America and became an enterprise.'"
Here's a link to the rest: www.godfire.net/apocalypse_12.html
:cloud9: Amen, it did.......Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on July 02, 2009, 06:20:44 PM
:cloud9: Babylon is the state of dwelling where the spirit of Jezebel reigns as queen in charge of increasing your flesh/kingdom of darkness, as opposed to New Jerusalem/heavenly mother who is to birth the Son/kingdom of light/Christ in you.
Therefore, you can leave Babylon (as the church realm who is ruled by her or whatever form), but still have Babylon ruling in you. Blessings....
This is basically how I see it as well.
Good post, Cardinal.
there are two cups given by the LORD...
the cup of Christ given to all mankind...judgement/mercy
and the cup of the wrath of God given to Babylon/fire of HIS
JEALOUSY....the vessel of dishonor is fitted for destruction
the vessel of honour is fitted for the Glory of HIS MERCY
we can not drink of both of them...the proper
dispensing of the cups will be done by Jesus Christ
HE WILL SEPERATE the one from the other
ONE part will remain eternally, one part will be obliterated
and blotted out
Judgement and mercy Isaaih 51;22 See, I have taken out of
your hand the cup that made you stagger[babylon's judgement]
from that cup, the goblet of my wrath,you will never drink
again[mercy] I will put it in the hands of your tormentors,
who said to you, fall prostrate that we may walk over you,
and you made your back like the ground, like a street to
be walked over....
Awake! Awake! shake of your dust,sit enthroned...
v 10 the Lord will lay bare His Holy ARM in the sight of all the
nations, all the ends of the earth will see the salvation of
our GOD.
11. Depart! depart! Go out from there! Touch no unclean thing
[spirit of Babylon vessel of demons]Come out from it and be
pure[seperation]
YOU WHO CARRY THE VESSELS OF THE LORD[honor/mercy]
But you will not leave in haste nor go in flight,
for the Lord will go before you[rise up Lord and let thy
enemies be scattered/ark set forward]
and the God of Israel will be your rear guard[when it rested/
return O'Lord to the many thousands of Israel
:cloud9: Love it, Sheila........ :thumbsup:
Because people do not understand Egypt and Babylon in the Scriptures, those are two biggies on their misunderstanding of the place of the Word of Faith movement in the Body of Christ. Whether Egypt or Babylon, we're talking about people who waste your time, don't fairly compensate you for your labor, create deplorable working conditions for you, claim they can do what they please with you, are verbally and in every other way ABUSIVE of you, your time with your God, the Name of your God, ultimately in their unfair dealings with you are oppressing your children, and are the stranglers of hope. Would be nice to nicely and neatly place these descriptions at the feet of any religious system that one doesn't agree with, but when noting God's dealings with both situations with Exodus and Zechariah, you're talking about people getting all of their back wages and being freed up in their time to serve their God unreservedly.
Religious matters in the Scriptures regarding other religions that don't reflect the true readings of the Scriptures have less extreme measures taken against them by God, in terms of the suddenness of His pronounced judgments, compared to this issue of the laborer oppressed in their wages, in their time, in their morale, having "HAPPY HOLIDAYS!" crammed down their throat rather than being able to either say what the holiday is or to claim the Biblical ones, etc. Let's face it, the timing of the prophesies of Zechariah require the fountain of Blood to be opened at Jerusalem for sin and all uncleanness, and what's potentially the half brother of Jesus, who may have grown up in the house with Him, in the epistle of James chapter 5 says that these promises from Zechariah weren't yet fulfilled in his day.
In the prophecy of Zechariah where Satan is bound for a thousand years and appears to be identified for us in that prophecy as the spirit of Babylon in particular, what we see worked out in the natural realm is a liberation of people's time and income as they grow spiritually to that point to where the just are living by faith, the outpoured Spirit, or rain, is bringing forth fruitfulness that was previously denied to the people of God, cf. Zechariah 8 with Jeremiah 31:27-28, and neither in Josephus regarding what lead up to 70AD nor in any of the writings that happened after the Babylonian captivity do we have this massive wealth transference described as having happened IN THE BEHALF OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD in Zechariah 2:9 and 14:14.
That's what's yet on the horizon so that we can go from there to ministering to the King annually in Zechariah 14 in the way that Matthew 25 says we're supposed to, and the implication of entering into the joy of the Lord is to work at getting the rain back on the lives of those whose tongues have melted, whose flesh has been consumed, and whose eyes have been blinded by the false religious, political, and economic systems of man which was the fire prepared for the Adversary and his messengers, and so that as His people have gone forth as His royal horse in the battle according to Zechariah 10:3, then we see all of the nations become the people of God as the previous economic hardships that may or may not have had a religious spin added to it are cast aside and the firstfruits are then able to minister to the latter fruits completely unhindered as we enter into the gold, silver, and apparel promised to us in Zechariah 14:14 and pictured to us in obscene opulent glory in the last two chapters of Revelation as we minister to the outsiders in full dominion.
The Romans carried off the treasures of the Jewish temple to Rome in 70AD or thereafter, but that's not what Zechariah 2, Zechariah 8, Zechariah 14, James chapter 5, and the book of Revelation are talking about with regards to the City of Truth and the people of God growing towards being the old men and old women carrying His staff and shepherding all of the children of the flock in Zechariah's, Isaiah's, and many other areas of Bible prophecy that describe the glorious manifestation of the Sons of God as the will of God that's done in heaven becomes the total manifestation of what's done on the earth. We've not yet seen that literal Psalm 23, Psalm 112 manifestation in the lives of the people of God on the scale that I believe that the Scriptures are saying we're supposed to be anticipating in our day as we get the junk out of our mouths and make sure His Written Word and Words by His Spirit have the ascendency over our mouths and our thoughts according to 2Corinthians 10, Proverbs 4, 1Peter 3, 2Peter 1, and many other passages to this effect.
good post martin :thumbsup: very encouraging indeed...... :icon_flower:
The Trilogies of man are closely related in theme; crafty and cunning, having no virtue.
peacemaker
Quote from: peacemaker on February 07, 2010, 10:10:41 PM
The Trilogies of man are closely related in theme; crafty and cunning, having no virtue.
peacemaker
:thumbsup:
Psa 56:11 In God have I put my trust: I will not be afraid what man can do unto me.
Psa 118:8 [It is] better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in the son of man, in whom [there is] no help.
Babylon, as it relates to scripture is quite straight forward...
Babylon is Jerusalem. The Hebrew prophets used this picture throughout their history to teach about thier falling away from God.
Notice 1 Peter 5, how Peter considers and straight out names the church who is located in Jerusalem as being in Babylon.
1 Peter 5:10 "After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.
11 To Him be dominion forever and ever. Amen.
12 Through Silvanus, our faithful brother (for so I regard him), I have written to you briefly, exhorting and testifying that this is the true grace of God Stand firm in it!
13She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings, and so does my son, Mark.
14 Greet one another with a kiss of love. Peace be to you all who are in Christ.
Quote from: Dallas on February 12, 2010, 04:49:59 AM
Babylon, as it relates to scripture is quite straight forward...
Babylon is Jerusalem. The Hebrew prophets used this picture throughout their history to teach about thier falling away from God.
Notice 1 Peter 5, how Peter considers and straight out names the church who is located in Jerusalem as being in Babylon.
1 Peter 5:10 "After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.
11 To Him be dominion forever and ever. Amen.
12 Through Silvanus, our faithful brother (for so I regard him), I have written to you briefly, exhorting and testifying that this is the true grace of God Stand firm in it!
13She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings, and so does my son, Mark.
14 Greet one another with a kiss of love. Peace be to you all who are in Christ.
This is a very interesting and thought-provoking post, Dallas.
Now a question to all - is it possible Babylon could also have multiple meanings and applications? You know, how often there's a primary audience, then underlying layers in the scriptures for our learning.... Example; Gary said the other day that he believes major, major things happened in 70 AD, but raised the issue of some possible double fulfillments of things...allow me to think out loud here :Chinscratch: :bigGrin:
Good points everyone, JC, I personally expect a double
fulfillment. In regard to Babylon....pay her back double...
and in regard to His people [Isaaih 61;7]....and so they will
inherit a double portion in their land.
In what manner He will fulfill all this is to be seen....
the 'word' speaks of a time of deliverance[Christ's return]
Deliverance[per from slavery to Egypt] could very well mean
freedom from the demands of the ruler of this world,to serve
and obey God[three days journey to offer sacrifice pleasing to
me] Worship unhindered of concerns/demands of this life.
Both Babylons rule and Pharoah's rule no longer to oppress us
or hinder our freedom in Christ[each man under his own vine
and fig tree]
A little over two weeks ago I was awakened by these
words 'GET OUT! GET OUT! GET OUT! While you can'!
I have been praying for guidance/understanding,in this matter.
I have found that what takes place in my life is parallel to
what is going on spiritually with His body of people. So, I know
this affects us all.[Just as I almost was literally drowned by
floodwaters] This is just how He teaches and shows me things.
Anyway, I await His spirit,the HEAD/MIND of His body..to
lead the feet in the WAY that He directs.
Could be...the double is spiritually...as king and preists/double
annointing of spirit...and to Babylon a double of evil,or
the fullness of iniquity...with her sins reaching unto heaven.
Would Love to hear from the spirit in you all.
Quote from: Dallas on February 12, 2010, 04:49:59 AM
Babylon is Jerusalem. The Hebrew prophets used this picture throughout their history to teach about thier falling away from God.
The Revelation of Jesus Christ speaks of "mystery babylon"...it is this one that would take over the world
the fruits of Babylon have always been the fruits of empires...greed, lust, oppression, a thirst for blood and killing, stealing of others' lives and property and resources
look around the world today and see which nations, peoples, powers aspire to these
Quote from: noname on March 17, 2010, 04:07:55 PMlook around the world today and see which nations, peoples, powers aspire to these
All nations.
If a nation isn't involved in some war they are trading with other nations.
And that trading usually is just greed. The only fair price to pay is: "getting it for free"
There are shades of grey and even black. But no white...
Quote from: jabcat
In Revelation it states; Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen... And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached onto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities... Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire...
Some say Babylon is mainstream Christianity. Some say it's a business/world system that's somehow against God. Some say it's generally 'confusion'.
The way I understand this is, The Babylon of the OT was what we call Iraq today. Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem because it says "where our Lord was crucified" It is refered to as "the great city" (Rev. 11:8) (Rev. 14:8). Also (Rev. 17:6) says, "And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus". Who was it that killed more of the saints? The Jew's. people like Paul who upheld the law.
I personally think this has already happened. If there is a repeat with prophecy as some think then it may happen again. I think it had or has to do with the law, because it says they can "neither buy nor sell" which may have to do with the Sabbath. This part is just my thoughts.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on March 17, 2010, 05:50:18 PM
The way I understand this is, The Babylon of the OT was what we call Iraq today.
Yep. And Eden also.
QuoteMystery Babylon is Jerusalem because it says "where our Lord was crucified" It is refered to as "the great city" (Rev. 11:8) (Rev. 14:8). Also (Rev. 17:6) says, "And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus". Who was it that killed more of the saints? The Jew's. people like Paul who upheld the law.
I think your description fits but history repeated itself.
"the great city": Vatican is a city.
KJVRev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Look how the leaders of RCC dress: http://catholicsites.org/clericaldress/
WW,
I believe in Revelation "the great city" is Jerusalem.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on March 17, 2010, 05:50:18 PM
The way I understand this is, The Babylon of the OT was what we call Iraq today. Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem because it says "where our Lord was crucified" It is refered to as "the great city" (Rev. 11:8) (Rev. 14:8). Also (Rev. 17:6) says, "And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus". Who was it that killed more of the saints? The Jew's. people like Paul who upheld the law.
I personally think this has already happened. If there is a repeat with prophecy as some think then it may happen again. I think it had or has to do with the law, because it says they can "neither buy nor sell" which may have to do with the Sabbath. This part is just my thoughts.
CHB
right...so hold onto your horses..."Jerusalem" is threatening to start wwIII...cause that is what's going to happen when Iran is attacked...the Beast has already sent her missiles closer to the location...been propping up "Jerusalem" with weapons...invaded Iraq, the south of Afghanistan and Pakistan...Iran is already surrounded...the killers of Jesus are spreading their venom wordlwide
Quote from: CHB on March 17, 2010, 11:01:09 PM
WW,
I believe in Revelation "the great city" is Jerusalem.
CHB
Again I'm not denying that. Could very well be so. As said maybe history repeats itself. Maybe city is just like a parable. Not really a city but more a belief system. (purple)
So the verse
also says something like: Abandon the false religions.
Just some guesswork :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: noname on July 22, 2009, 12:35:21 PM
well,
let's see who Babylon was first...
Babylon developed from the city of Babel which Nimrod, the advesary of God, built...
Nimrod ruled by violence, greed, submitting all nations to tyranical rule...and all the rulers thereafter followed suit (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome...until today)
Babylon became the ancient world power...monetarily, militarily, religiously, and "culturally"...seen as the most advanced "civilization"
they invented the usary system of banking which we still have today (charging interest on money lent)...contrary to the biblical "system" of not charging interest on lent money...they also established a military alliance with other nations to stay in power, and subverted and annihilated anyone who stood in their way
so in short, babylon became the "anti-God"...anti-Christ world system...the totalitarian antithesis of what God intended for mankind
now, let's forward to today...
which power/s in the world are furthering the ideals of babylon...now "Mystery" babylon because it is not so obvious at first glance?...
If you're honest with yourselves, you might not like the answer...
Without exception, every one of them.
Quote from: sheila on March 17, 2010, 03:36:14 PM
A little over two weeks ago I was awakened by these
words 'GET OUT! GET OUT! GET OUT! While you can'!
I have been praying for guidance/understanding,in this matter.
Anyway, I await His spirit,the HEAD/MIND of His body..to
lead the feet in the WAY that He directs.
Would Love to hear from the spirit in you all.
I've wondered exactly what getting out means, what the plagues are, and how a believer would be affected by them if they didn't get out...
My own personal experience was to hear Him calling me out of institutionalized religion. But it may be more than that (getting institutionalized religion out of me) as well as other situations and applications. Thoughts on what it means to you, and what exactly might happen to someone not out, and "tasting of the plagues"?
This system drinks the blood of the saints, so is a system that kills christians and enjoys it, for she is drunken with violence.
This system also has a great city and when this city is destroyed by 10 kings, then the merchants wail and weep, indicating that this city has great worldwide wealth.
There is no city on earth in history and currently that fullfills these requirements, therefore the city must be yet future.
Quote from: thinktank on October 03, 2010, 02:05:51 AM
There is no city on earth in history and currently that fullfills these requirements, therefore the city must be yet future.
Βαβυλών
Babulōn
Thayer Definition:
Babylon = "confusion"
1) a very large and famous city, the residence of the Babylonian kings, situated on both banks of the Euphrates. Cyrus had formerly captured it, but Darius Hystaspis threw down its gates and walls, and Xerxes destroyed the temple of Belis. At length the city was reduced to almost solitude, the population having been drawn off by the neighbouring Seleucia, built on the Tigris by Seleucus Nicanor.
בּבל
bâbel
BDB Definition:
Babel or Babylon = "confusion (by mixing)"
1) Babel or Babylon, the ancient site and/or capital of Babylonia (modern Hillah) situated on the Euphrates
Part of Speech: noun proper locative
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H1101
Same Word by TWOT Number: 197
בּלל
bâlal
BDB Definition:
1) to mix, mingle, confuse, confound
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to mingle, confuse
1a2) to mix
1a3) to give provender, feed (animals)
1b) (Hithpoel) to mix oneself (among others)
1c) (Hiphil) to fade away
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 248
Sometimes ones logic is only logical within the (limited) paradigm of ones own perspective.
Babylon, in my view, is both a historic reality and an aionian mystical representation- exactly like Jerusalem.
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Babylon-"Confusion by mixture" is the state of a person, or corporately, God's people, walking in carnality (1 Cor 3), as "mere men"(KJV).
Without form and void(chaos, confusion, mixture-not conforming to the image of Christ- God's purpose and goal in choosing us....not coming into sonship maturity), darkness covering the face of the deep (little or no understanding of God's ways or purposes, sleeping spiritually- those who sleep sleep in the dark...it is high time we awake out of sleep.....awake O sleeper and the light of Christ will shine on you), the Spirit hovering over the face of the waters(chosen for salvation/deliverance by sanctification of the Spirit 1 Pet 1:2 2 Thess 2:13,Titus 3:5 the Spirit searches out the deep things of God and makes them known unto us)in need of separation(Let there be light! Sword of the spirit, dividing asunder soul and spirit and MAKING MANIFEST) and creation/manifestation/fruitfulness born of revelation(the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God, that you might know/experience what is the hope of His calling, the riches of His inheritance in the saints and the surpassing greatness of His power towards us who believe....Eph 1).
"Therefore come ye out from the midst of her and be a clean and separate people". "If any man cleanse himself from these(the fruits of carnality) he shall be a vessel fit for the master's use."
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
(Heb 12:22-24)
How blessed is the man whose strength is in You, In whose heart are the highways to Zion! Passing through the valley of Baca(tears) they make it a spring; The early rain also covers it with blessings. They go from strength to strength, Every one of them appears before God in Zion.
(Psa 84:5-7)
Jerusalem means "flow of peace" or "rain of peace". Do a quick search on "coming down of of the heavens" and/or "coming out from God" and you will quickly see it is about "manifestation" in the earth of "revelation" previously hidden. The new Jerusalem "comes down out of heaven" whenever the Bride is "manifested" by a group of believers in any given place and time, as it was(in essence) in Acts 2 and 4. I also believe she will be revealed to "the whole world"(age/kosmos) at the parousia/epephania of Christ. We have all been summoned to the "wedding feast", where the Spirit and the Bride say "Come all ye that thirst and drink FREELY of the water of life". The ho always charges money, and she drinks from the blood of the saints(This wisdom is not from above... James 3:14-16).
Those who have "Come out of her", that spiritual ho, in whom "righteousness once dwelt but she has become a ho" Isaiah 1:21 are marching to Zion "you have come unto Zion, and the heavenly Jerusalem....."(Heb 12).
Those who have not are held in "captivity". "By the rivers of Babylon we hung our harps while our captors demanded of us songs"(sounds like church in the system, drinking fro the great river of the world, the Euphrates).... Yet for those who have "Come out"- there is a river that makes glad the city of God"....they drink from the gently flowing river of Jerusalem, the river of peace that flows from "under the throne."(The wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peacable....James 3:17,18)
Babylon is the MOTHER OF HARLOTS, in her are found all the wickedness of all the cities of the earth. I think it is a good time for people to move to the country if they can, in the natural(just an opinion).
In the spiritual, Babylon is becoming the haunt of jackals and every wild beast, "Get out of her my people....." as fast as you can ;o)
NOTE of interest: The Jordan river will run dry in 2011. At present it is running only sewage, because the water has been dammed and diverted by Israel, Jordan and Syria.(sounds like the worldly church- no water, flowing out only sewage, having dammed up the living water)
In the 19th and early 20th century, 1.3 billion cubic meters of water cascaded each year down rapids and rolled over waterfalls on the way down to the lowest point on Earth – the Dead Sea.
In 2009, just 20 m.cu.m. to 30 m.cu.m of water pooled and sluggishly flowed through the river's channels – all of it sewage. Sewage runs from Israel, the Palestinian Authority and Jordan into the river. However, two new sewage treatment plants, one in the Beit She'an area and the other in the Jordan Valley Regional Council area, are set to begin operating over the next year and a half(will have the appearance of more water....but will really be just more sewage).
It will take 400 million cu.m of fresh water , released from the dams, to restore it.
Wow, we're having church today!
Praise you Lord.
Quote from: eagleswayNOTE of interest: The Jordan river will run dry in 2011. At present it is running only sewage, because the water has been dammed and diverted by Israel, Jordan and Syria.(sounds like the worldly church- no water, flowing out only sewage, having dammed up the living water)
Yikes. The waters are going to be cut off, as they were when Joshua crossed the Jordan--from Adam to the dead sea. :mshock:
Quote from: jabcat on October 02, 2010, 07:36:22 AM
I've wondered exactly what getting out means, what the plagues are, and how a believer would be affected by them if they didn't get out...
My own personal experience was to hear Him calling me out of institutionalized religion. But it may be more than that (getting institutionalized religion out of me) as well as other situations and applications. Thoughts on what it means to you, and what exactly might happen to someone not out, and "tasting of the plagues"?
So based on your post John; to be caught up in the slumber? To not be used, not be blest? To not know Him intimately?
But would these be categorized as "plagues"? Or might it still be something else? Maybe actual punishment/painful correction as well? Maybe.
If the Lord is saying 'get out ASAP' it could mean any or all of those things, but in my experience He always sends confirmation (in the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established). Sometimes one word, or dream, or vision gets me to look up and begin seeking- then as I continue in His word the truth sets me free, or the meaning or direction comes clear. Of course, I believe He is urgently calling all who have ears to hear to get out of the world and into the Spirit in general- to be wise virgins.
Jeremiah 3:14 (Amplified Bible)
Return, O faithless children [of the whole twelve tribes], says the Lord, for I am Lord and Master and Husband to you, and
I will take you [not as a nation, but individually] —
one from a city and two from a tribal family--and I will bring you to Zion.
Jeremiah 3:22 (Amplified Bible)
Return, O faithless sons, [says the Lord, and] I will heal your faithlessness.
[And they answer]
Behold, we come to You, for You are the Lord our God.
Luke 15:20-22 (Amplified Bible)
So he got up and came to his Father.
But while he was still a long way off, his Father saw him and was moved with pity and tenderness for him; and he ran and embraced him and kissed Him [fervently].
And the son said to him, Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight;
I am no longer worthy to be called your son!
But the Father said to his bond servants,
Bring quickly the best robe (the robe of honor) and put it on him; and give him a ring for his hand and sandals for his feet.
The Lord is so beautiful, His word as sweet as honey
Quote from: Molly on October 05, 2010, 11:59:28 AM
Quote from: eagleswayNOTE of interest: The Jordan river will run dry in 2011. At present it is running only sewage, because the water has been dammed and diverted by Israel, Jordan and Syria.(sounds like the worldly church- no water, flowing out only sewage, having dammed up the living water)
Yikes. The waters are going to be cut off, as they were when Joshua crossed the Jordan--from Adam to the dead sea. :mshock:
Perhaps it is setting the stage for the drying up of the river euphrates
Quote from: jabcat on July 02, 2009, 08:10:50 AM
In Revelation it states; Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen... And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached onto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities... Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire...
Some say Babylon is mainstream Christianity. Some say it's a business/world system that's somehow against God. Some say it's generally 'confusion'.
What do you think it is?
What then do you consider the plagues of it to be; the death, mourning, and famine; burned with fire? Some say that it's literal, some even say it has to do with 9/11. Many say it's all spiritual and/or figurative...if that's your take, then what do you think it means, i.e., the system, the plagues, the destruction? Future, past, not time bound, etc? Somehow a revelation of what Jesus is doing in each individual?
When God called me out of mainstream religion, He clearly used a writing in the Forward of the Christian Bible (1991) regarding coming out of Babylon as an institutionalized religious system, to confirm His desire for me to break away from denominationalism. However, for all I know, it could have various related meanings, or a general meaning of anything rooted in confusion that's against God's will. I don't know. What are your thoughts?
hi! I lean toward thinking Bible prophecy is a repeating pattern.. that there was a babylon (the great) in former times (babylon itself/its religion) and the RCC in the day of inquisitions.. but think of its guise in what's called 'latter days' as a global (gold based system) that leads the world astray by its own particular 'latter days' seduction (of using harlotry to sell, sell everything from necessities to luxuries right down to the bodies and souls of men/and women-rev18- and she holds a golden cup full of her abominations/side effects of murders, perversions, abductions, sex slave, disease, crime, etc-rev 17. I think of her as based on the title written on her forehead "mystery babylon" babble on.. mystery babble, meaning as you've written confusion.. all confusion, i.e. untruth, as revelation says she's responsible for all blood shed upon earth, which I take to mean since Cain slew Abel, meaning said confusion (untruth) has been around for a very long time, longer than the RCC or a based upon gold selling system.. Strong's concordance shows the root of the word "harlot" as being "pornos" and "to sell".
- Denominationalism with all its division certainly, to me, would be included in the word "confusion" and a babble... But I think of THE harlot of 'latter days' (or the fully grown and progressed harlot spirit/trend/'god' of the air) to be a global gold based system that leads the world astray through its using harlotry to sell, and through its widespread pornos (influence).. Showing satan to be ultimately behind the system especially in 'latter days' when it is said to sit on seven hills (continents? having gone global).
- Babylon also (I've heard) was the first to develop a coin or monetary system.
I think it's distinctly possible that much like the Kingdom of God is in our hearts and minds so can be Babylon. I believe Babylon would be carnal, worldly, self seeking, and materialistic living. I believe it is a call to life and life more abundantly. I believe it's another way of saying be ye seperate.
Quote from: jabcat on October 05, 2010, 01:46:12 PM
Quote from: jabcat on October 02, 2010, 07:36:22 AM
I've wondered exactly what getting out means, what the plagues are, and how a believer would be affected by them if they didn't get out...
My own personal experience was to hear Him calling me out of institutionalized religion. But it may be more than that (getting institutionalized religion out of me) as well as other situations and applications. Thoughts on what it means to you, and what exactly might happen to someone not out, and "tasting of the plagues"?
So based on your post John; to be caught up in the slumber? To not be used, not be blest? To not know Him intimately?
But would these be categorized as "plagues"? Or might it still be something else? Maybe actual punishment/painful correction as well? Maybe.
Is there anything worse? To not know God intimately is to have a form of godliness but to deny it's power. It's just another path to destruction. In my opinion, we are talking about carnal Christianity here. Living carnally is a punishment all in itself. You thirst but are never satisfied. Your steps are paved with anxiety and confusion. Your nights do not give you rest. I consider his correction a blessing not a curse. He is using correction to deliver us from this sort of living and to call us to maturity.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 05, 2010, 05:03:52 PM
If the Lord is saying 'get out ASAP' it could mean any or all of those things, but in my experience He always sends confirmation (in the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established). Sometimes one word, or dream, or vision gets me to look up and begin seeking- then as I continue in His word the truth sets me free, or the meaning or direction comes clear. Of course, I believe He is urgently calling all who have ears to hear to get out of the world and into the Spirit in general- to be wise virgins.
Amen.
Quote from: shawn on November 30, 2010, 02:25:41 AM
I think it's distinctly possible that much like the Kingdom of God is in our hearts and minds so can be Babylon. I believe Babylon would be carnal, worldly, self seeking, and materialistic living. I believe it is a call to life and life more abundantly. I believe it's another way of saying be ye seperate.
:goodpost: Amen - that is what I believe as well!
A sincere question to those who believe it is religion or churches ... if that is the case, why does Revelation begin with letters to churches, pointing out some things "against" them but also pointing out things in their favor and complimenting what they get right? I've never quite understood that view, and probably there is a simple answer :mblush:
I believe there was a real Babylon. I also believe it's in the human heart. And believe that all of life is a lesson and an allegory, yet is real, and I believe the Kingdom of God is more than just in our hearts and that good/God will thoroughly triumph and all the universe will be restored to paradise and that God will literally overthrow all untruth both in the human heart and in the world and He will literally "tabernacle with man" and so will the earth and all things be literally made new, along with all human (and angel) hearts. I believe life is quite literal. And we are simply learning (deeply and beyond a doubt) good from evil which is also life from death, which is nonlife, the result of imperfection/sin, the opposite of God/Life/Perfection. Logic and simplicity, to me, always trumps confusion.. The greatest logic being God is life and also perfection. Imperfection is the opposite of life, hence a savior was needed to rescue from death, the grave, erroneously translated 'hell', and its cause, imperfection (but hey He could have chosen to never endow thinking ability.. ever.. anywhere.. but He's wiser than that and an ant farm isn't what he's after..) I think not recognizing that we are "dust" and perceiving death as another form of life and hell as other than death/nonlife, causes confusion.. And a little leaven (confusion) leavens the whole lump, i.e. robs the message of its great saving (convincing) POWER. Hence the UR gospel goes for a large part unheard..
:girlheart:
A few observations on the view from Babylon, versus the view from Zion
Babylon- By the rivers of Babylon, There we sat down and wept, When we remembered Zion. Upon the willows in the midst of it We hung our harps. For there our captors demanded of us songs, And our tormentors mirth, saying, "Sing us one of the songs of Zion." How can we sing the LORD'S song In a foreign land? If I forget you, O Jerusalem, May my right hand forget her skill.
(Psa 137:1-5)
Zion- A Song of Ascents. When the LORD brought back the captive ones of Zion, We were like those who dream. Then our mouth was filled with laughter And our tongue with joyful shouting; Then they said among the nations, "The LORD has done great things for them." The LORD has done great things for us; We are glad. Restore our captivity, O LORD, As the streams in the South. Those who sow in tears shall reap with joyful shouting.
(Psa 126:1-5)
Babylon- The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality, and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, "BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."
(Rev 17:4-5)
Zion- But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
(Heb 12:22-24)
Babylon is the head of gold, a pure monarchy, the glory of man reigning. Babylon is "confusion by mixture", the saints in captivity, having lost possession of the promises of the inheritance of the saints in the light.
Zion is the little "living stone", "petra", a tabernacle of the Spirit- all glory to God, none left for man, the members of the body joined together under the headship of Jesus, filled with the spirit and functioning in service and edification- "for the building up of itself in love"
Babylon is mixture, Zion is purity
Babylon- But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing.
(Jas 3:14-16)
Zion- But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
(Jas 3:17-18)
Babylon is carnality/chaos/confusion-
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
(1Co 2:14)
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?
(1Co 3:1-3)
Zion is the high situation of Jerusalem, joy of the whole earth-
In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints, do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
(Eph 1:8-23)
:thumbsup: Praise God!
:cloud9: Amen to that! Thank you Father..... :thumbsup:
There is a book called, Secrets of the Temple. It has nothing to do with anything we would tend to call religion. It is about the monetary system, and its high priests who are bankers.
There is an organization called The Honourable Society of the Inner Temple. It has nothing to do with anything we would tend to call religion. It is about the legal system and its high priests who are lawyers.
The Honourable Society of the Inner Temple, commonly known as Inner Temple, is one of the four Inns of Court (professional associations for barristers and judges) in London. To be called to the Bar and practise as a barrister in England and Wales, an individual must belong to one of these Inns. It is located in the wider Temple area of the capital, near the Royal Courts of Justice, and within the City of London.
--Wikipedia
Mystery Babylon hides in plain site. We are so embedded in its system that we cannot even see it. But, it controls every aspect of our lives. It is the financial/legal system which runs the world, complete with a hierarchy of priests and high priests. What is more remarkable is that those who run this system consider themselves as such. They worship the god of this world.
Its crimes are so horrible, and are everywhere to be seen, yet we cannot see them because they are so much a part of our daily lives.
Jesus tells us we cannot serve two masters. Most of us do not even realize the master we are serving with every waking thought. The city which is fallen in the book of Revelation is a system in which people live, [even as we look forward to a city--a system-- which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.] It will fall in one day. What's worse, the very thought of that strikes fear into our hearts because we have not yet 'come out of her.'
"mystery" [Babylon]
G3466
μυστήριον
mustērion
moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.
:cloud9: It's true......Babylon is not just the so called religious world. It's any man-made system that usurps the Headship of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I think the dream I had about 4 years ago of 6 men in white shirts and black pants, all dressed alike, counting money around a table/altar like they were chanting in religious fervor, was Him showing me the principalities in the financial Babylon. There was a feeling of pure evil around them. And yes, their kingdom too must fall. Blessings...
The physical manifestation of mystery babylon has been a mystery for centuries, but if one takes simple faith in what the lord said and trust his words, the exact identity of her is revealed. Once you take this on board you will be amazed at how old testmant prophecies match up with her and the parallels used.
It is a challenge though to put all the pieces together, it has taken me years to put just some of the pieces together.
I think that what most here have said it true on a spiritual basis, but what is spirit does manifest itself in the natural realm, and mystery babylon will manifest herself, once she has fallen and become a cage of every foul bird. Right now she is only a partial manifestation, that will manifest her evil in full, when she has fallen from grace.
I believe most bible scholars have overlooked her identity, because their minds think it is impossible, for they think with their natural minds and so dismiss the idea.
:2c:
:cloud9: Can you be a little more specific, TT? Thanks :thumbsup:
The answer is found within the text of revelation, let the bible interpret the bible.
What does God says she is?
But it's a mystery, because there is a spirit behind it. The same thing can manifest good and evil, depending on the spirit driving it.
After you find out what she is, you can then figure out which one. This is also contained in the same book.
I've got much more evidence that points to her identity, but I thought I'd show you the basic signpost, that most dismiss, probably because it's too simple.
Some other perspectives on the views from Zion/Jerusalem vs the view from Babylon, insights into the sons and daughters of Zion and the sons and daughters of Babylon
BABYLON-
"You, O king, were looking and behold, there was a single great statue; that statue, which was large and of extraordinary splendor, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was awesome. "The head of that statue was made of fine gold, its breast and its arms of silver, its belly and its thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. "You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. "Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
(Dan 2:31-35)
Daniel saw the vision. The statue of the kingdoms of the earth from Babylon until the coming of Messiah and His Kingdom.
ZION-
I saw another strong angel coming down out of heaven, clothed with a cloud; and the rainbow was upon his head, and his face was like the sun, and his feet like pillars of fire; and he had in his hand a little book which was open. He placed his right foot on the sea and his left on the land; and he cried out with a loud voice, as when a lion roars; and when he had cried out, the seven peals of thunder uttered their voices. When the seven peals of thunder had spoken, I was about to write; and I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Seal up the things which the seven peals of thunder have spoken and do not write them." Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, WHO CREATED HEAVEN AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE EARTH AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE SEA AND THE THINGS IN IT, that there will be delay no longer, but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets. Then the voice which I heard from heaven, I heard again speaking with me, and saying, "Go, take the book which is open in the hand of the angel who stands on the sea and on the land." So I went to the angel, telling him to give me the little book. And he *said to me, "Take it and eat it; it will make your stomach bitter, but in your mouth it will be sweet as honey." I took the little book out of the angel's hand and ate it, and in my mouth it was sweet as honey; and when I had eaten it, my stomach was made bitter. And they *said to me, "You must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings."
(Rev 10:1-11)
What John saw was not a statue. It is the ONE NEW MAN(Eph 2:15). A manchild caught up to the throne(Eph 2:6,7). Head in heaven(Eph 1:22). Clothed with a cloud(Heb 12:1). Composed of those who eat the word, in whom the mystery of God is finished........
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
(Eph 4:11-13)
The full grown messenger, "come down out of heaven", revealed among men..... "I am the bread that comes down out of heaven"......"take and eat"......
For all those who He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren, and those who he predestined, he also called, and those who He called He also justified, and those who He justified, He also glorified. What then shall we say to all these things? If God is for us, who shall be against us?
The little stone, cut without hands, to become a mountain(Zion) filling the whole earth.... a city with foundations in the heavens, made without hands, whose builder and maker is God(Jerusalem)..... a tabernacle of living stones, bound together in the unity of the spirit and the bond of peace, a habitation of God in the spirit.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God. The seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by them that make peace.
How blessed is the man whose strength is in You, In whose heart are the highways to Zion! Passing through the valley of Baca(tears/sorrow) they make it a spring; The early rain also covers it with blessings. They go from strength to strength, Every one of them appears before God in Zion.
(Psa 84:5-7)
The foreknown are the sons who are called, justified, glorified..... carrying the ministry of reconciliation....setting the whole creation free into their liberty.... "Behold I make all things new".
BABYLON-
The sons of the adversary, the tares, tower over the "wheat" and bear no fruit unto eternity. By their fruit you shall know them. Full of pride and empty boasting,
"comparing themselves with themselves and measuring themselves by themselves they show that they have no understanding"(2 Cor 10). Vaunting against one another, spots on our love feasts, whose god is their appetite for glory-when they ought be ashamed. The "old man" and his works resurrected- twice dead, plucked up by the roots..... the rulers of Babylon
Jude 1:6- "...messengers who did not keep their own principality, but leave their proper dwelling, He has kept in imperceptible bonds under gloom for the judging of the great day."
If you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart do not be arrogant and lie against the truth, this wisdom is not from above....it is earthly, soulish, demonic.
ZION vs. BABYLON
Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
(Rom 12:1-5)
"Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? "Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
(Mat 3:5-12)
Prepare the way of the Lord, make His paths straight...... We thank you Lord for the axe and the fire and the winnowing fork..... We thank you for the separation, the purging and the wind that carries away the chaff.....
"MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness. Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble, and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed. Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.
For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. For they could not bear the command, "IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED." And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, "I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling." But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. (Heb 12:3-24)
ZION REIGNS!!!!!
This is the mountain that will fill the whole earth, it began with a little stone, "I believe you are the Messiah, the Son of God", born not of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but born of the will of God....eaters of the Word, breakers of the bread of life, partakers of the bread that comes down out of the heavens... partakers of the divine nature.
Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
(1Pe 1:22-23)
Want to know who the called and chosen are? They all appear before God in Zion! They go from strength to strength! They sow in peace with them that make peace! You shall know them by their fruits!
:cloud9: Love your posts, Eaglesway.... :thumbsup:
Excellent, this shows the difference between the spirit behind mystery babylon the carnal city and zion, the heavenly city after the lords heart.
But here is some more info on mystery babylon.
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus:
This woman is responsible in some form for killing the saints and sheds blood
Very good. Good read. :thumbsup: :bigGrin:
:cloud9: What kills the saints is the unredeemed harlot soul (female) in union with the carnal mind (male) which produces offspring (unclean thoughts that originate in the spirit but take form in the natural).
There is something brought to "birth" out of the evil imaginations of men's hearts/souls. This "birth" results in "ritual" uncleaness of the "woman" as after childbirth, spiritually speaking.
She is "drunk" because those in the Pentecost realm that have not moved on into Tabernacles fullness, are also using the creative power of the "womb-man" to recreate in THEIR image. My :2c: Blessings....
Yes, she(Babylon) is full of mixture, self indulgent. Whereas Jerusalem, the Bride, is the woman clothed with the sun(bride,virgin,betrothed) is giving birth to a corporate manchild(caught up to his throne, seated in the heavenly realms, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ). The overcomers are at the golden altar of incense, and the fragrance of their sacrifice arises before the throne. "No matter what, not my will, rather let your will be done."
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on July 02, 2009, 08:10:50 AM
In Revelation it states; Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen... And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached onto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities... Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire...
Some say Babylon is mainstream Christianity. Some say it's a business/world system that's somehow against God. Some say it's generally 'confusion'.
What do you think it is?
What then do you consider the plagues of it to be; the death, mourning, and famine; burned with fire? Some say that it's literal, some even say it has to do with 9/11. Many say it's all spiritual and/or figurative...if that's your take, then what do you think it means, i.e., the system, the plagues, the destruction? Future, past, not time bound, etc? Somehow a revelation of what Jesus is doing in each individual?
When God called me out of mainstream religion, He clearly used a writing in the Forward of the Christian Bible (1991) regarding coming out of Babylon as an institutionalized religious system, to confirm His desire for me to break away from denominationalism. However, for all I know, it could have various related meanings, or a general meaning of anything rooted in confusion that's against God's will. I don't know. What are your thoughts?
I think you're right about various meanings.. For one thing, in a previous age, Great Babylon which "ruled the kings of the earth", was definitely the Roman Empire, both of them, the one of John's day and the one of Medieval days..
I think of the tatoo on the/her forehead as her root. Her mind set, perceptions, philosophy, world view, etc. "Mystery Babylon" - confusion as her forehead "responsible for all slain upon earth" -rev 18:24 (since Cain slew Abel, before any institutions past or present) so this to me means all untruth. But the harlot herself, whose immorality, sorcery, enchantments deceives all nations - 18:23 - has to do with the spirit of harlotry which pervades modern man's secular and especially commercial world, where sex is used to sell, sell, sell, and this spirit of fornication enchants and seduces the whole world. Has seduced the world.
In Strong's Concordance, the Greek word translated as "harlot" is "pornos".
"She holds in her hand a golden$ cup of abominations"/side efffects (of murders, fornication, perversity, abortions, sex slave trade, & her dark streets and alleys, etc). - 17:4
"All who dwell on earth have drank the wine of her immorality and become drunk" (17:2). "The merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her destruction for no one buys their" long "list of products and luxuries" anymore, down to the "bodies and souls of men" (and women) - 18:11-13
- The kings of the earth (and politicians) are in bed with her - 17:2.
- "All who trade became rich by her enchantments" (sorcery) - 18:19.
And, the beast (world beast, rev 13:1-10 as opposed to 11-18 a 'man'/office) she's sitting on in this vision - The world beast/body, and the ten beast's ten horns/kings (of one final hour) will hate her (say what!?) and will desolate her, eat her flesh, and consume her with fire. Aha! Socialism finally devours capitalism! "In one hour" shall her crash come - "is such wealth laid waste" - 18:10 & 17. "Babylon is fallen! fallen!" The crash comes in one hour.
"The woman whom you saw (John) is the great city which rules over the kings of the earth" - 17:18.
:2c: