I seriously don't know if a better verse could be asked for. Look at this. It's incredible!
Isaiah 4:4 (Young's Literal Translation)
4If the Lord hath washed away The filth of daughters of Zion, And the blood of Jerusalem purgeth from her midst, By the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
I honestly prefer the Amplified Bible version better:
Isaiah 4:4 (Amplified Bible)
4After the Lord has washed away the [moral] filth of the daughters of Zion [pride, vanity, haughtiness] and has purged the bloodstains of Jerusalem from the midst of it by the spirit and blast of judgment and by the spirit and blast of burning and sifting.
This is awesome!! :boogie:
Tim,
I'm don't wanna spoil you happyness but....
I will look at ET angle at it.
If the Lord hath washed away The filth of daughters of Zion
That's a group/tribe/nation.
It consists of 2 parts. Clean and filthy people.
God put the clean ones in heaven and teh filthy ones in hell.
Now with a less negative view... :laughing7:
Isaiah 4:4
"Washed" is the fullars soap.
"blast of burning" Not sure about this one. What is blast in this context?
A short burst of fire? Or a blast furnace. (extremely hot and "never" ends)
Is the Amplified Bible just better for this verse or in general?
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 26, 2009, 09:41:38 AM
Tim,
I'm don't wanna spoil you happyness but....
I will look at ET angle at it.
If the Lord hath washed away The filth of daughters of Zion
That's a group/tribe/nation.
It consists of 2 parts. Clean and filthy people.
God put the clean ones in heaven and teh filthy ones in hell.
Actually, I don't even know how that follows. Obviously anybody that was clean didn't need to be judged and burned. The filthy received that. Is not the Lake of Fire supposed to be judgement? And is there not burning in the Lake of Fire? ... It seems pretty clear to me. Of course, I'm sure you're just throwing the ET angle out there, but I can't see how it follows...
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 26, 2009, 09:45:24 AM
Now with a less negative view... :laughing7:
Isaiah 4:4
"Washed" is the fullars soap.
"blast of burning" Not sure about this one. What is blast in this context?
A short burst of fire? Or a blast furnace. (extremely hot and "never" ends)
Is the Amplified Bible just better for this verse or in general?
lol I just like the Amplified Bible because it doesn't have the "if" but rather the "after" in the beginning. Sounds less... open ended.
Oh, and if it never ends how in the world would they be purified? lol The verse says they WILL be purified if they experience this judgement and burning.
Quote from: Tim B on July 26, 2009, 09:45:29 AM
Actually, I don't even know how that follows. Obviously anybody that was clean didn't need to be judged and burned.
The keyword here is "anybody"
"anybody" is a person. But the verse is about a group. It's about cleaning the group not the individuals.
Cleaning out the group can also mean removing the bad people.
Just like 'we' put the bad elements of society in jail. That cleans the nation.
Does that make sense?
Oh, and Rotherham's Emphasized Bible says states the verse like this:
Isaiah 4:4 (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible)
"When My Lord shall have bathed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, And the blood-guiltiness of Jerusalem, he shall wash away out of her midst, -By the spirit of judgement, and By the spirit of thorough cleansing,"
Cleansing sounds like soup in this instance, at least, to me.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 26, 2009, 09:51:06 AM
Quote from: Tim B on July 26, 2009, 09:45:29 AM
Actually, I don't even know how that follows. Obviously anybody that was clean didn't need to be judged and burned.
The keyword here is "anybody"
"anybody" is a person. But the verse is about a group. It's about cleaning the group not the individuals.
Cleaning out the group can also mean removing the bad people.
Just like 'we' put the bad elements of society in jail. That cleans the nation.
Does that make sense?
I see what you're saying. However, one would have to assume that the daughters of Zion are all clean people and the filthy are NOT daughters of Zion. Otherwise, daughters would consist of both clean and unclean people.
The verses prior to the verse I quoted seems to give a better context.
Isaiah 4:1-4 (New International Version)
Isaiah 4
1 In that day seven women
will take hold of one man
and say, "We will eat our own food
and provide our own clothes;
only let us be called by your name.
Take away our disgrace!"
[Note: the women are the dirty ones, because THEIR disgrace is needed to be taken away.]
The Branch of the Lord
2 In that day the Branch of the LORD will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land will be the pride and glory of the survivors in Israel. 3 Those who are left in Zion, who remain in Jerusalem, will be called holy, all who are recorded among the living in Jerusalem. 4 The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire.
It sounds like the disgrace is from WITHIN the women, aka the daughters of Zion. This seems to be suggesting that the women of Zion are dirty, that is, they need to be cleansed of THEIR disgrace. It's the dirty which need to be cleansed.
Quote from: Tim B on July 26, 2009, 09:55:05 AM
I see what you're saying. However, one would have to assume that the daughters of Zion are all clean people and the filthy are NOT daughters of Zion. Otherwise, daughters would consist of both clean and unclean people.
I think the blue part.
All that said: Commonly bathing is an act of cleaning and not destroying people.
If you say: "Yesterday I and my family took a bath" very few people will ask "who did you kill/kick out of your family"
The reason I often put in some negativity is that I think we shouldn't make the opposite mistake of the ET mistakes.
ETs see torture in each verse. URs see love in each verse. I think both are wrong. Ok the final outcome is love. But that doesn't mean there are some spanking verses.
The bathing/washing of the daughter of Zion may sound nice like playing with your rubber duck in the bath tub.
But I think the pictured cleaning isn't fun. The daughters are cleaned with a hard brush.
:2c:
Quote from: Tim B on July 26, 2009, 10:02:29 AM
The verses prior to the verse I quoted seems to give a better context.
Good context. I agree with your conclusion.
Do you think this are really 7 women. (that's a question not an argument)
Or perhaps it could mean seven million. Many. Seven tribes/nations. Just using seven because of it's special meaning. Or...
And we wait...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TiheIzes-Y
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 26, 2009, 10:16:59 AM
Quote from: Tim B on July 26, 2009, 10:02:29 AM
The verses prior to the verse I quoted seems to give a better context.
Good context. I agree with your conclusion.
Do you think this are really 7 women. (that's a question not an argument)
Or perhaps it could mean seven million. Many. Seven tribes/nations. Just using seven because of it's special meaning. Or...
Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. I didn't reply right away and never got around to replying sooner (than later).
But yeah, I'm not sure what I think of the seven women. I'm thinking they probably stand for tribes/nations or something.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 26, 2009, 09:41:38 AM
Tim,
I'm don't wanna spoil you happyness but....
I will look at ET angle at it.
If the Lord hath washed away The filth of daughters of Zion
That's a group/tribe/nation.
It consists of 2 parts. Clean and filthy people.
God put the clean ones in heaven and teh filthy ones in hell.
LOL, this would depend on the ETer, but if it is a Dispensationalist you could talk about God's covenant with the Jews, and how all Israel shall be saved.
Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so ALL Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Now it is left to the ETer to somehow make Isaiah 4:4 somehow inconsistent with Romans 9:25-27.
Edit: fixing the chapter number.
Quote from: Seth on August 06, 2009, 11:17:28 PM
Romans 9
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so ALL Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Now it is left to the ETer to somehow make Isaiah 4:4 somehow inconsistent with Romans 9:25-27.
That's an awesome verse! Doesn't Romans also speak of ALL the world being saved too after Israel is completely saved? I think I'm thinking of this verse:
Romans 11:13-16
11 I am saying, then, Do they not trip that they should be falling? May it not be coming to that! But in their offense is salvation to the nations, to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if their offense is the world's riches and their discomfiture the nations' riches, how much rather that which fills them!
13 Now to you am I saying, to the nations, in as much as, indeed, then, I am the apostle of the nations, I am glorifying my dispensation,
14 if somehow I should be provoking those of my flesh to jealousy and should be saving some of them.
15 For if their casting away is the conciliation of the world, what will the taking back [when ALL Israel is saved?] be if not life from among the dead?16 Now if the firstfruit is holy, the kneading is also; and if the root is holy, the boughs are also.
Maybe it's out of context. But I thought this kind of sounded like once ALL Israel is saved, so will also be the rest of the world. Because it sounds like by rejecting Israel God conciliated the world, and so when ALL Israel is brought back (aka saved or brought to spiritual life) then so will the rest of the world be saved or brought to spiritual life (because Israel being saved IS SO MUCH MORE than their being rejected, so the outcome for the world will be even MORE SO).
Do you have any thoughts Seth?
Yup, Romans 11 says "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."
BTW, I misquoted the previous verse as Romans 9 when it was 11. Will go back to fix that. Anyway, the blindness is "partial" because a remnant was saved from Israel of the flesh while the non-remnant was cut off. This blindness continues until the FULLNESS of the Gentiles be come in. Now the ETer will language "fullness" into being in effect "partial fullness" but Romans 9:25-27 encapsulates the salvation of all mankind when you understand the full scope of the NT's teaching on it.
As a side note, the cutting off of Israel was necessary so that the church would be judged/persecuted by those men (their own brothers in the flesh). The judgment of the flesh is what leads to life in the Spirit.
In other words, the blindness and cutting off of Israel was is the very operator that caused Christ to be revealed in them who were persecuted by that blinded Israel. And because of that testing of faith and endurance, the church is then prepared to receive Israel into "the glorious liberty of the children of God..."
Quote from: Tim B on July 26, 2009, 10:02:29 AM
The verses prior to the verse I quoted seems to give a better context.
Isaiah 4:1-4 (New International Version)
Isaiah 4
1 In that day seven women
will take hold of one man
and say, "We will eat our own food
and provide our own clothes;
only let us be called by your name.
Take away our disgrace!"
:cloud9: Or how about it's the fullness of the 7 'churches/women' who have remained gentiles by refusing the circumcision of their hearts, by virtue of eating that which they have produced out of the ground/flesh (their own food) as Cain, and kept their own filthy rags, instead of His righteousness.
He will not give His image (name/nature) to another. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on August 07, 2009, 01:17:51 AM
Quote from: Tim B on July 26, 2009, 10:02:29 AM
The verses prior to the verse I quoted seems to give a better context.
Isaiah 4:1-4 (New International Version)
Isaiah 4
1 In that day seven women
will take hold of one man
and say, "We will eat our own food
and provide our own clothes;
only let us be called by your name.
Take away our disgrace!"
:cloud9: Or how about it's the fullness of the 7 'churches/women' who have remained gentiles by refusing the circumcision of their hearts, by virtue of eating that which they have produced out of the ground/flesh (their own food) as Cain, and kept their own filthy rags, instead of His righteousness.
He will not give His image (name/nature) to another. Blessings....
:goodpost:
:cloud9: Well, it's about TIME, we found some common ground, Seth..... :girlheart: Blessings..... :winkgrin:
Quote from: Seth on August 07, 2009, 12:43:01 AM
Yup, Romans 11 says "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."
BTW, I misquoted the previous verse as Romans 9 when it was 11. Will go back to fix that. Anyway, the blindness is "partial" because a remnant was saved from Israel of the flesh while the non-remnant was cut off. This blindness continues until the FULLNESS of the Gentiles be come in. Now the ETer will language "fullness" into being in effect "partial fullness" but Romans 9:25-27 encapsulates the salvation of all mankind when you understand the full scope of the NT's teaching on it.
As a side note, the cutting off of Israel was necessary so that the church would be judged/persecuted by those men (their own brothers in the flesh). The judgment of the flesh is what leads to life in the Spirit.
In other words, the blindness and cutting off of Israel was is the very operator that caused Christ to be revealed in them who were persecuted by that blinded Israel. And because of that testing of faith and endurance, the church is then prepared to receive Israel into "the glorious liberty of the children of God..."
So, if I understand this correctly: the Gentiles will come into FULLNESS and
then Israel will be brought back, such that ALL Israel is finally saved (and ALSO the Gentiles)?
Thanks Seth, for you're reply. I very much appreciate it. :bigGrin:
Quote from: Cardinal on August 07, 2009, 02:01:18 AM
:cloud9: Well, it's about TIME, we found some common ground, Seth..... :girlheart: Blessings..... :winkgrin:
:grin: :grin:
Quote from: Tim BSo, if I understand this correctly: the Gentiles will come into FULLNESS and then Israel will be brought back, such that ALL Israel is finally saved (and ALSO the Gentiles)?
Thanks Seth, for you're reply. I very much appreciate it.
You are very welcome.
Quote from: Seth on August 07, 2009, 06:35:13 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on August 07, 2009, 02:01:18 AM
:cloud9: Well, it's about TIME, we found some common ground, Seth..... :girlheart: Blessings..... :winkgrin:
:grin: :grin:
Quote from: Tim BSo, if I understand this correctly: the Gentiles will come into FULLNESS and then Israel will be brought back, such that ALL Israel is finally saved (and ALSO the Gentiles)?
Thanks Seth, for you're reply. I very much appreciate it.
You are very welcome.
Does that mean my understanding was correct? lol
:bigGrin:
I believe so. To put it as simply as I can, Romans 11 proves that all Israel shall be saved, and that through removing unrighteousness. WhiteWing's hypothetical argument from an ET perspective, that the unrighteousness removed is people gone to hell, can be countered by the simple statement that BY removal of unrighteousness ALL Israel shall be saved. Did Jesus not come to fulfill the prophets?
Acts 3:21
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
The holy prophets spoke of "the restitution of all things." And since Paul also verifies that THROUGH removal of unrighteousness that ALL Israel shall be saved, you have scriptural reason to know that the "the filth" done away by "the spirit of judgment and the spirit of burning" is not people gone to hell, but purification unto salvation.
Quote from: Seth on August 07, 2009, 09:22:43 PM
I believe so. To put it as simply as I can, Romans 11 proves that all Israel shall be saved, and that through removing unrighteousness. WhiteWing's hypothetical argument from an ET perspective, that the unrighteousness removed is people gone to hell, can be countered by the simple statement that BY removal of unrighteousness ALL Israel shall be saved. Did Jesus not come to fulfill the prophets?
Acts 3:21
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
The holy prophets spoke of "the restitution of all things." And since Paul also verifies that THROUGH removal of unrighteousness that ALL Israel shall be saved, you have scriptural reason to know that the "the filth" done away by "the spirit of judgment and the spirit of burning" is not people gone to hell, but purification unto salvation.
Awesome! Thanks for the reply! :bigGrin:
Another thought I had, recently, while thinking about 1 Corinthians 13:4-5 and judgement/punishment.
Quote4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
Not counting wrongs seems to suggest that, God does not count wrongs, only in the sense that he does not allow our wrongs to change his opinion, or love for us. In such a way, ALL of God's punishments must be, in the end, beneficiary, less our sins simply be held against us. They're acknowledged and so punished accordingly, but the punishments are not detrimental to our betterment.
Really enjoyed this thread, good posts,everyone!
scripture is full of judgement and coming of wrath and being
saved from wrath. And it is very important that we
understand these things.
the only one that goes into everlasting cutting off,is the son
of perdition[and by that I do not mean Judas] Judas just
showed that this same liar and theif spirit of rebellion,that
enters the heart of man..must go into everlasting cutting off..
and it shall be thoroughly purged from man[this is in fact the
abomination that must be purged from the temple]
of which Antiochus sacrificed the swine flesh to further identify
this robber theif spirit that enters into the temple of God
[ourflesh].
All wrath scriptures are written against this spirit..it is HIS
JEALOUSY[LOVE FOR US] that will cleanse us from this.
He is jealous for us..HE LOVES US[MANKIND] and will deliver
us from this spirit of death.
LOOK!!! Isaaih 52; Awake! Awake! O ZION clothe yourself
with strength! Put on your garments of splendour,O JERUSALEM
the HOLY CITY............
THE UNCIRCUMCIZED AND DEFILED WILL NEVER ENTER
YOU AGAIN
People not understanding this, and judging before the
appointed time,and judging by mere appearance have been in
error...and unjustly judged mankind as receiving this
judgement of everlasting torment/cutting off.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 26, 2009, 09:41:38 AM
Tim,
I'm don't wanna spoil you happyness but....
I will look at ET angle at it.
If the Lord hath washed away The filth of daughters of Zion
That's a group/tribe/nation.
It consists of 2 parts. Clean and filthy people.
God put the clean ones in heaven and teh filthy ones in hell.
True that's what the ETers will do... but try reading Isaiah ch 3-4 and then Lamentations 1-3 where it get's personal and individual e.g. "Behold, O LORD; for
I am in distress:
my bowels are troubled;
mine heart is turned within me; for
I have grievously rebelled" and where God's wrath (and mercy) is viewed from both Zion's perspective and from the individual's perspective. Suddenly it becomes impossible to apply God's wrath to those filthly people over there and God's mercy to these nice clean people over here (like me of course) because God's wrath and mercy are applied to one daughter of Zion who admits his own filth.