I'm heavily involved in discussing universal reconciliation with the yet-to-be-convinced, and one claim I'm confronted with is that the notion of post-mortem-correction is a means of "earning" one's salvation. It then usually gets compared with the Purgatory of Roman Catholicism, which is taught to be a means of purification. I always thought our purification/justification came through Christ's death on the cross, so is purification what is going on in post-mortem-correction, or something else entirely? I would hate to think that my belief in a temporary hell also led to the conclusion that salvation can be "earned" by suffering temporarily, since it's not our own efforts that save us anyway. Hope all this made sense, lol!
Is it correction? Or is it a washing of the unclean from you, so that you may be properly dressed for the Kingdom?
If a doctor removes a tumor, or cancerous cells from your body, is it so that you "earn" longer life? Or is the long life already yours, and the doctor just facilitating it?
Perhaps that is a stretch. How about the idea of a shower? Do you take a shower before putting on clean clothes to earn them? Or just because it is the right thing to do?
I would think of it as a "disinfecting", removing that which is unfavorable in you, so that you may present yourself in your best light.
Quote from: chaela on January 30, 2008, 08:55:50 PM
I'm heavily involved in discussing universal reconciliation with the yet-to-be-convinced, and one claim I'm confronted with is that the notion of post-mortem-correction is a means of "earning" one's salvation. It then usually gets compared with the Purgatory of Roman Catholicism, which is taught to be a means of purification. I always thought our purification/justification came through Christ's death on the cross, so is purification what is going on in post-mortem-correction, or something else entirely? I would hate to think that my belief in a temporary hell also led to the conclusion that salvation can be "earned" by suffering temporarily, since it's not our own efforts that save us anyway. Hope all this made sense, lol!
Chaela: The Source of the correction is God and has nothing at all to do with earning anything. The only passage of Scripture that speaks of "everlasting punishment" is in St. Matthew 25:46, the foundation of everlasting being aionios, and the K.J.V. translation of kolasis as punishment. The meaning of kolasis is primarily correction, followed by punishment and penalty. Correction does not go on and on and on: it reaches consummation, that consummation being the peaceable fruits of righteousness.
And the foundation of kolasis is kolazo meaning trimming and pruning.
Kolasis
HERE (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1208.0)
Ah, thank you! I didn't think it had anything to do with earning one's way out of there, but wanted to be sure. People tend to accuse us of pushing a "purgatory" like thing with this, so it helps to be able to distinguish what we believe about post-mortem correction from Roman Catholic purgation.
My own peculiar view on this may be helpful. Do these same folks always make sure they shower and put on clean clothes before they attend services? In order to be presentable to Him? Would they not do the same before eternity? Forgiven, yet unclean, we need to be cleaned up to be presentable before Him. It's not about paybacks.
I think that we all go through the same process and the difference between imputed and actual righteousness helps me to understand. When we put our faith in the Lord and what He did on the cross, we are saved by grace through faith. At this point, we receive the robe of His righteousness and appear to God clean in Him. However, God loves us as we are, but He loves us too much to leave us this way. The Holy Spirit who now dwells within us begins to work out our salvation so our imputed righteousness then become actual righteousness as He changes us from those who never did anything right to those who by our new righteous nature actually do right. Notice below which applies to all:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Our salvation whether in this life or the next is by grace and through faith. It is not now or after death ever by works. However, once we were saved, we became His workmanship unto good works. Our good works did not save us, but they are the fruit of our salvation working its way out.
When He appears before all at the Great White Throne, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess His Lordship unto salvation. However, they will then only have imputed righteousness and will then begin to be His workmanship and will be corrected in righteousness so they can enter the city and do right.
I was a drug addict and a sexaholic before I was saved. Jesus saved me just as I was and I was the righteousness of God in Him at that moment. But, He cannot use me in His Kingdom until He cleaned me up so I left those things behind.
A rapist or pedophile who bows and confesses at the GWT will immediately be the righteousness of God in Christ. But, rapists and pedophiles cannot enter the city and continue in their evil ways in the Kingdom to come. They will have to endure the LOF so that which is not of God will be burned up because the Kingdom to Come will be one where none of these works of the flesh can enter.
John
I guess the confusion I had stems from having been in a more fundamentalist environment since trusting Christ as my Savior back in '88 (converted from Catholicism). I encounter this confusion when I discuss post-death correction with fundamentalist Christians even now, because almost immediately they think of the Roman Catholic Purgatory in the cleansing process of universal redemption, and a red flag goes up in their minds because they believe that Christ's blood fulfilled all need for further purification.
So, for me, it's something of a readjustment because it feels like I'm revisiting my Roman Catholic beliefs regarding Purgatory, because Catholics have used the analogy of the "mud room" in explaining Purgatory -- a place to shed the muddy boots and dirty items before entering God's house.
But I also suspect that there are different types of Christian Universalism -- some say there's more correction awaiting everyone regardless of when they put their faith in Christ, and the other end of the spectrum which believes that there is nothing more to be done -- everyone is saved but not everyone realizes it yet.
Sorry if I'm not making sense .... like a lot of people, I was up very late last night watching the Big Game, LOL! Today I am a zombie.
"We must all die, and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again. But God does not take away life; instead He deviseth ways for the banished to be restored."
Literally: for the banished to not be banished.
To Devise=
To conceive of the idea for something and figure out how it will work.
To form in the mind by new combinations or applications of ideas and principles.
To invent a plan, a system, object, etc. usually cleverly or imaginatively.
To invent or make. (A plan, device, or solution of a problem), especially by a fresh application of known information; arrange, contrive.
To contrive, plan, or elaborate; invent from existing principles or ideas: to devise a method.
To form a plan.
To form, plan, or arrange in the mind.
To plan a scheme for; to purpose, to attain.
To imagine; to form in the mind by new combinations of ideas or designs.
To form a scheme....To lay a plan.
To formulate by thought.
To contrive; to excogitate; to invent; to plan.
To arrange by systematic planning and united effort.
To strike out by thought.
Devise= Chashab=
(A Primitive Hebrew Root Word)
To think. To plan. To calculate, invent, make a judgement.
To imagine. To count.
To reckon.
To value.
To invent.
To be completed. To be reckoned.
To think upon, consider, be mindful of.
To think. To do. To devise. To plan.
Thank you, FineLinen, for this info!
Quote from: FineLinen on February 05, 2008, 02:37:25 PM
"We must all die, and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again. But God does not take away life; instead He deviseth ways for the banished to be restored."
Literally: for the banished to not be banished.
To Devise=
To conceive of the idea for something and figure out how it will work.
To form in the mind by new combinations or applications of ideas and principles.
To invent a plan, a system, object, etc. usually cleverly or imaginatively.
To invent or make. (A plan, device, or solution of a problem), especially by a fresh application of known information; arrange, contrive.
To contrive, plan, or elaborate; invent from existing principles or ideas: to devise a method.
To form a plan.
To form, plan, or arrange in the mind.
To plan a scheme for; to purpose, to attain.
To imagine; to form in the mind by new combinations of ideas or designs.
To form a scheme....To lay a plan.
To formulate by thought.
To contrive; to excogitate; to invent; to plan.
To arrange by systematic planning and united effort.
To strike out by thought.
Devise= Chashab=
(A Primitive Hebrew Root Word)
To think. To plan. To calculate, invent, make a judgement.
To imagine. To count.
To reckon.
To value.
To invent.
To be completed. To be reckoned.
To think upon, consider, be mindful of.
To think. To do. To devise. To plan.
Christ has the keys of death and of the grave. Must have 'em for some reason, eh? Sometimes, in the mouth of someone daring enough to prophecy in accord with the measure of their faith we'll occasionally see the physically dead raised to life and wind up hearing quite the testimony of either heavenly bliss or torments of the damned that they were never so glad in all of their lives to be loosed from. Do any of us dare to imagine that Christ only does such miraculous occurrences in the behalf of the unconverted through ministers of the Gospel? He does it by the hundreds in some years and by the thousands in other years, but does this account for all of His redemptive activity in sparing bodies, souls, and spirits from corruption? I'm deeply saddened for the UR folks that believe that there's two different Gospels, one to the circumcised and another for the nations 'cause that probably means only superficial reading of those Scriptures that they believe only apply to the circumcision in the New Testament. What is that called? Ultra-dispensationalism?? I'm not sure if that's the theological term for it. So many theological terms and so few barf bags for how theological circles hide tentative hypothesi behind psuedo-intelligent-sounding vocabulary inventions. I'm sure I'll get in trouble sometime with someone, somewhere for mislabeling a sacred cow while trying to very reverently call the philosophical idol by the right name.
QuoteHail mighty dispensationalism, full of pseudo-grace...
whatever...
I forgot how the the prayer goes while fiddling with the beads of theologians...
It's not a new invention. Whatever the right term for it is, it's the older form of dispensationalism that was abandoned by the vast majority of dispensationalists because of all of the well written refutations the Holy Spirit arranged for it over the centuries. By believing this, and probably living accordingly, they're more than likely to be robbed of an intimate knowledge of Jesus' High Priestly ministry through which all of the benefits of redemption are ministered to us. Without what Jesus is doing for us today, all that He did 2000 years ago would have been in vain. (Cf. Romans 5 concerning our being reconciled by His death and saved by His LIFE)
It's a shame that most of the dead that are bodily raised are often raised from the dead within the week, when they've barely been embalmed. I've been in one of my John 14:12 moods, so I've been asking the Lord about one of the local cemeteries and allowing me to do something by faith that, uh...., might frighten quite a few folks. I've been getting a tad ornery in my prayer time recently that if I can't believe John 14:12, then I might be being a bit presumptous in believing John 3:16 wholeheartedly 'cause
if He'd lie about one, then He'd lie about the other. No disrespect either intended or assumed on His part. Just got the wrestling going on and believing that since I'm walking by a better covenant established upon better promises that the limp belongs to Christ and not to me.
No disrespect intended, implied, or offered to those that didn't grow up in Pentecostal circles like I did. Not all of us have the same background and I realize that. I grew up SEEING quite a few things that I'd get accused of telling bread and fish stories if I tried to share any of the things that I saw while growing up. So, I've had seasons in my life of grumbling at the Lord for irrelevant miracles that didn't bring Him the greatest glory that He could have drawn to Himself. He's recently told me that He's not really into doing things that won't bring Him the maximum harvest yield in what He's sown, but that the types of things that I'm often choking on my spiritual steak about are on the calendar for the very near future, without any barings on eschatological matters, but based on the riches of His grace. He's instructed me to keep pressing Him with as much importunity as I've been doing, because of the Scripture that says that whatever I'd demand in His Name, He'll do it.
Oh! What a covenant-bound Redeemer that we have!! His lovingkindness and tender mercies always precede His filling our crown with good things so that our teenage youth is renewed as the eagle's.
Anyway...I've had a sneaky, sneaky suspicion that's been growing in me recently that if we were to empty a cemetery that we might hear quite a few tales of Christ going back and forth from the grave and emptying it's contents on a regular basis, at least where "lost souls" are concerned, along with their spirits. But, I'd like an eye-witness or two.
If at the deepest level of our spiritual DNA we're simply the Word of God, because God doesn't create anything or give birth to anyone without His Word, then it's been occuring to me recently that He might not be as obligated to dish out the torments in the way that traditional orthodoxy and traditional UR would imply. If our very consciousness is the Word of God and those areas where we're not conscious are simply missing sequences of the spiritual DNA from the Word of God; if our very enmity is only in those areas where we don't yet understand the Word of God -- then the High Priestly ministry of Jesus Christ as Chief Executive Officer of the New Covenant is starting to make more and more and more sense. His High Priestly ministry enforces the nullification of the weak and beggarly elements of this world. His High Priestly ministry maintains the victory over every principality and power that He spoiled and made a public spectacle over. In His High Priestly ministry we not only find -- and I say this reverently -- the mechanical dispenser of grace, but we also find the increase of the seed of the Kingdom through His High Priestly ministry. One plants, one waters, but it's God that gives the increase, according to Paul. That's Jesus in His High Priestly ministry giving the increase, because He's still actively multiplying the Bread.
I'm about to wander into analogy after analogy until what I'm saying is going to become thoroughly incoherent for too many people (including myself) that might read this, so I'll sum up my statements thus far by saying that Jesus Christ is actively involved in each and every single one of our lives. Sooo much that I'll eventually say about where my thinking is going regarding the High Priestly ministry of Jesus, but let me close right now with 3 or 4 quick thoughts as I try to gather my thoughts that have been growing for months and months that the answer is neither Ultra -- death and glory -- Universalism or Restorationist -- temporary Hell -- Universalism, but intimately tied to the fact that Jesus is Lord of the harvest and we need to start thinking in terms of the principle of the seed (i.e. Mark chapter 4) regarding each individual that Jesus is bringing to harvest. Reflect very carefully upon Romans 6:4-8 as still being in the context of Romans 5 and don't traditionalize by assuming "water baptism." Water's not mentioned in the passage. The passage might illuminate a lack of understanding on the purpose and relevance of water baptism, but if Paul had meant to directly talk about water baptism, then he'd of mentioned the H2O. In Romans 5, the one and the many equals the all, and I'm not sure that Paul abandoned entirely that subject as quickly as we've traditionally thought when he proceeded to talk about sanctification; futility leading to glorification in Christ's Hands; inheriters of the world verses those who are called to be inherited; nonconformity to this world through the renewing of our minds, et. al.
Might the torments of Hell be nothing more than the Word of God, that each of us is, suddenly coming full circle to where it SUDDENLY IGNITES AND RECLAIMS THE GLORY THAT IT HAD WITH THE FATHER BEFORE THE WORLD WAS -- through the intercessions of Christ, mediation of Christ, and application of the Blood of Jesus Christ via His High Priestly ministry?
I was in the military once upon a time. There have been two types of military service in our history, voluntary and conscripted. People who enlist choose to be in the military. They "earn" their way in by making a decision to sign up. Those who are drafted get picked. It is not their choice to serve. I look at it like this: Those who think only those who believe "get in" believe enlisting is the only way ("asking Jesus into your heart"), while UR espouses a "draft" version (albeit one where everyone gets drafted). And enlisting is much more of choice than getting drafted, don't you think?
But here's the thing: everybody goes through bootcamp. Bootcamp has nothing to do with who gets in. It is simply the process that turns you into a soldier or sailor.
Chaela,
There is a NEEDED washing of the world...some may be more willing than others, but all will be utterly washed clean.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=586.0
This article might be helpful:
The Judgment of God
Grace that won't accept "No"
John R Gavazzoni
Jan. 2, 2003
Thousand Oaks, CA
Editor's Note. After reading "Free Will, Part I and Free Will, Part 2", this reader had the following question for John. His answer follows. Jan Antonsson
Hi John,
Thank you for your reply to my question on "Free will." It was very interesting. I have been reading a lot of your articles, and also articles written by other believers in Universal Salvation. I find I understand a lot of what is written but there are one or two subjects I am struggling with.
For instance I quote from an article below that I read recently:
"We're talking about Love that "never fails" here. But we are not talking about NO PENALTIES for willful disobedience to the light God has given us. Christians and non-Christians alike will be judged for their works. And there IS a lake of fire reserved for any of us who opt for an "anything goes" and unrepentant life style.
God is no respecter of persons. So just because we've been "born again"
does not mean that we're automatically exempted from meeting with the just penalties for any unrepented wickedness we afterwards may do." (Jn. 15:6; Rom. 2:1-12; Heb. 2:1-4). End Quote.
John, do you agree that even Christians can go to the Lake of Fire? My understanding is that Christ took away our sins and any associated punishment or penalties.
What Charles Slagle says sounds to me like another form of Legalism, i.e., we must perform or else! Surely sinless perfection is not required of us. There must be many sins we don't 'repent' of before we die, even as Christians.
Please can you help me? Thanks, and Happy New Year.
Regards,
Greg (not his real name)
John's reply:
Hi again, Greg,
I'm getting back to you for some hopefully helpful input regarding your question about what the writer, a dear friend of mine, meant by the statements you referred to. First, I think we need to clarify that the idea of Christ dying for us and dying for our sins, in the sense of Him dying INSTEAD of us, is really unscriptural. As I've mentioned in a couple of my articles; that is called the doctrine of "vicarious, substitutionary atonement."
In that view, God has to "get back at people" for sinning against Him, but since He loves them, He does it to Christ instead of us, and if we'll accept that, we'll go free. I could go into much more detail about it, but I won't at this point. You can though, if you haven't already, read two of my articles, "The Great Misrepresentation" and "The Atonement" , which might help you better interpret what the writer is saying.
* The death of Christ is not an "instead-of" death, it is a "co-death."
* Our old man (the font of sin) died and was buried WITH Him, rather than HIS dying INSTEAD of us.
* The totality of humanity was resident in Christ, and the totality of humanity's curse of death ran its course in Christ,
* so that IN Him, and WITH Him, we died, once and for all.
* Christ's death does not settle a legal matter as is conventionally taught, it settles what manner of man dies and what manner of man lives.
* He effectively died FOR us by INCLUDING us in his death that we might be raised up by His resurrection into newness of life
* as a new person whose origin is from eternity when our true personhood was foreknown.
* Our true personood has its roots in who we are in Christ.
* That is how we were foreknown by God before time began and before the lie about God and man was spoken.
That is how God continues to know us. That is not to say that He is not aware of the contradictions that cling to us in the form of the lie-constituted false persona that afflicts us, but that will ultimately serve to root us more deeply in our true personhhood, in the Being in which "we live and move and have our being."
Back to the statements in question: The passages of scripture that Charley refers to reveal what he's actually talking about, which has to do with the correctional judgment of God, as opposed to the conventional view that boils down to a retaliatory vindictiveness on God's part.
Allow me to just take the one passage, as beautifully representative of all three and representative of what Charley means to convey:
"If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned"
(John 15:6, RSV). I will point out something in Jesus' story of the vine and how it illustrates God's relationship to us both in terms of supplying us with His life and dealing with that which is counterproductive to that life flow.
* Very few Christians have read this marvelous story carefully and I was among them until the Spirit brought me up short years ago and caused me to see some things I'd never noticed before.
* At the heart of Jesus' illustration is the picture of
* Christ as the Vine,
* the Father as the One who cultivates and cares for the vine,
* and we as the branches.
Probably the most familiar statement in the story is in verse five; "I am the vine and you are the branches." When the Lord began to open to me the meaning of this story, He pointed out that Jesus had made something very clear about the vine in verse one that must be kept in mind in interpreting the rest of the parable.
He establishes something about the vine in verse one that colors His whole message and particularly verse five.
"We must not infer that the vine, as spoken of in verse 5, is essentially dissimilar to the vine as it is spoken of in verse 1."
In the first verse, He doesn't simply say, "I am the vine," rather He says, "I am the TRUE vine." Of course, there's only one vine involved in this whole story, so that when he speaks of the vine in verse five, it is the vine that He calls "true" in verse one. Now, if He is the vine and we are the branches, and the vine which He is, is the true vine, then the branches must be "true" also. We---the real we---cannot be branches in the true vine and be false branches.
The branches are part of,
they are one with, the vine.
The vine is inclusive of the branches.
If you say that the branches are false, then you are saying that there is falseness in the vine, but that can't be right, because Jesus is the TRUE vine---pardon my repetition. If you'll check any good dictionary of new testament words, you'll find that the Greek word, translated "true" in this case, carries the idea of real, ideal and genuine. That is, anything that is described by that Greek word is the exact opposite of false, fraudulent or deceptive. It is true and thus it is not a lie.
* I have, in recent years, been captivated by the realization that there is, in regard to all things, the truth and the lie.
* The truth is Christ and all that is true in and of Him, is true of us. He, the Truth, is our truth; our genuine ideal, our reality.
* There is a lie in opposition to this truth, and the fact that it makes an appearance and opposes the truth, in no way makes the lie true and in no way detracts from the truth.
* The lie has no creativity of its own, it attempts to steal and use the divine principle of incarnation against the God of incarnation.
* God is the incarnating, incarnate God. "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God-----and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us..." (John 1:1, 14).
* The lie puts on flesh in counterfeiting the truth, but though it parades around, flaunting its perverse behavior, it is a lie and every manifestation coming from it is constituted by that non-truth.
*
By seeing this we come to know what is pruned away from the vine, away from us.
*
We can then understand what the fire of God (the fire which God is) operates against and what it consumes.
*
The God-fire, the Lake of Fire, the baptism with the Spirit and with Fire, consumes the chaff that envelops our true being in Christ, and quite marvelously so, that chaff temporarily serves a purpose in the unfolding of the truth.
*
Three dots, so to speak, need to be directly connected in the picture that scripture draws for us of God:
*
First, "Our God is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29);
*
second, "God is love" (I John 4:816); and
*
third "Love never fails" (I Cor. 13:8, Phil.).
*
So we can see that love will not fail to separate us from the lie we have been subjected to.
*
Most essentially that lie has to do with the true identity of God and our identity in Him.
*
God's nature, His "I AM" identity, is declared, manifested and gloriously expressed in the Christ, whose body we are.
*
As members of Christ, we, with Him as our Head are the bodily fulness of God, and as living stones in relatationship to the Chief Cornerstone, we are the living temple of God.
Paul is in total agreement with Jesus when we compare Paul's statement that "You are the temple of God, which temple IS HOLY" (I Cor. 3:16, 17, 19, emphasis, mine), with Jesus' story, telling us that He is the true vine and we are the branches. The temple of God, which we are, is holy.
That means it is separate from all that is sinful and unclean.
No matter what lie may be spoken about the temple, no matter if, for a season in the eonion dimension, the temple of living stones is partially concealed beneath a veneer of the lie, the lie cannot change the holy nature of the temple. In the case of the vine, God is cutting away what we are not, what is in contradiction to the vine's reality, which includes the reality of the branches---again, please pardon the repetition. We might say that God is cutting away sucker branches.
Charley seems to be addressing a situation that we often find among professing Christians, and that is the idea that, being in Christ, exempts one from the corrective judgment of God. Being in Christ, in fact, quite particularly qualifies us for the corrective work of God, which paradoxically has already been carried out in Christ; a completed work which we are presently experiencing.
That which God did in Christ is at work in us in the present, and though it's so hard to put into words, we are not going through it in order to make it complete, we are going through that which has been completed.
Our experience does not complete it; our experience confirms it. God's finished work in Christ is unfolding in us presently. I hope this has been of help. You are a saint, dear brother, and don't forget it.
Stay tuned for future serious, seminal samplings.
John Gavazzoni
Quote from: chaela on January 30, 2008, 08:55:50 PM
I'm heavily involved in discussing universal reconciliation with the yet-to-be-convinced, and one claim I'm confronted with is that the notion of post-mortem-correction is a means of "earning" one's salvation. It then usually gets compared with the Purgatory of Roman Catholicism, which is taught to be a means of purification. I always thought our purification/justification came through Christ's death on the cross, so is purification what is going on in post-mortem-correction, or something else entirely? I would hate to think that my belief in a temporary hell also led to the conclusion that salvation can be "earned" by suffering temporarily, since it's not our own efforts that save us anyway. Hope all this made sense, lol!
Same here, that gets thrown in my face all the time. The problem w/me is I don't want to tell them the 'rest of the story' and
really freak 'em out.
This is how I see it:
1. The wages of sin is death, always has been.
2. He that is dead is freed from sin.
3. When the body of sin is gone, there is no more need for correction.
Now someone will bring out all the supposed post-mortem correction scriptures which are really judgments based on past works and an 'accounting'. All I see is the unprofitable works (of the flesh) will be burned up. It's good for you, it's good for me, it's good for
them. :thumbsup:
In any case, show them where is says believers will be saved by fire. 1 Cor. 1:13 "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire", and that should back them off a bit.
So no ones paying for sins or earning anything - all the bad stuff is just going to go bye bye. :boyheart:
I personally don't get UR's who believe all the unbelievers will get spanked until they relent and scream "I'm sorry" and then I guess there's an alter call and God will say "Now, with every eye closed and every head bowed" :mshock: :dontknow:
As you said, many views....
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself,
blessings,
- byron
Quote from: firstborn888 on April 13, 2008, 01:42:40 PM
Quote from: chaela on January 30, 2008, 08:55:50 PM
I'm heavily involved in discussing universal reconciliation with the yet-to-be-convinced, and one claim I'm confronted with is that the notion of post-mortem-correction is a means of "earning" one's salvation. It then usually gets compared with the Purgatory of Roman Catholicism, which is taught to be a means of purification. I always thought our purification/justification came through Christ's death on the cross, so is purification what is going on in post-mortem-correction, or something else entirely? I would hate to think that my belief in a temporary hell also led to the conclusion that salvation can be "earned" by suffering temporarily, since it's not our own efforts that save us anyway. Hope all this made sense, lol!
Same here, that gets thrown in my face all the time. The problem w/me is I don't want to tell them the 'rest of the story' and really freak 'em out.
This is how I see it:
1. The wages of sin is death, always has been.
2. He that is dead is freed from sin.
3. When the body of sin is gone, there is no more need for correction.
Now someone will bring out all the supposed post-mortem correction scriptures which are really judgments based on past works and an 'accounting'. All I see is the unprofitable works (of the flesh) will be burned up. It's good for you, it's good for me, it's good for them. :thumbsup:
In any case, show them where is says believers will be saved by fire. 1 Cor. 1:13 "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire", and that should back them off a bit.
So no ones paying for sins or earning anything - all the bad stuff is just going to go bye bye. :boyheart:
I personally don't get UR's who believe all the unbelievers will get spanked until they relent and scream "I'm sorry" and then I guess there's an alter call and God will say "Now, with every eye closed and every head bowed" :mshock: :dontknow:
As you said, many views....
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself,
blessings,
- byron
Yeah, man!! Christ came because we all are found unworthy (ok, maybe there are a few somewhere that are worthy), but all are accepted anyways. The hardest part is that some folks see the "it just doesn't matter" as an excuse for justifying free for all behavior. As for me, the acceptance of this gift as fact justifies trying to earn it, even if I know I will fail, and walking with Him in my life improves the time I spend on earth.
SALVATION BY FIRE
by Ray Smith
Part one
No, our merciful and graceful loving God and Father does not eternally torture humanity IN fire, but rather eternally saves humanity BY fire.
Let's read it and rejoice:
"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE" (I Cor. 3:13-15).
Does everyone understand this? No one is tortured, killed, or annihilated in this fire! This fire of God SAVES people who go through it! There is salvation BY means of this fire. This fire is part of God's judgment and grace!
SCRIPTURE MUST INTERPRET SCRIPTURE
Pay close attention to what I am about to say. There are but two places in all Scripture that speak of "EVERY MAN'S WORK" being tried and judged: Twice in I Cor. 3 and twice in Rev. 20. And there are but two places in all Scripture where every man's work is tried and judged "IN FIRE." And again those two places are I Cor. 3 and Rev. 20. Now then, earlier we learned from the Apostle Peter that,
"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture at all is becoming its OWN EXPLANATION" (II Pet. 1:20,
Concordant Literal New Testament).
So I Cor. 3 cannot completely answer all that is contained within its verses without the aid of the ONLY other such Scripture in the Bible, Rev. 20. And Rev. 20 cannot completely answer all that is contained within its verses without the aid of the ONLY other such Scripture in the Bible, I Cor. 3!
Paul tells us in I Cor. 2: 12-13 that,
"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might KNOW THE THINGS that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak [
in only twelve more verses Paul Himself speaks of just such spiritual things concerning the judgment of men's works in fire] not in the words which man's wisdom teaches [
not the same physical torture in physical fire taught by the foolish understanding of the church] but which the Holy Spirit teaches; COMPARING [OR MATCHING] SPIRITUAL THINGS WITH SPIRITUAL."
By comparing these two spiritually matched Scriptures with one another we can come to the truth of God's intention for BOTH of these fires that judge and try EVERY MAN'S WORK in their own order.
The fire of I Cor. 3 accomplishes the very same thing as the fire of Rev. 20 accomplishes. Both of these fires are symbolic. Literal fire does not burn up inanimate flaws (wood, straw and stubble) of human character. But AS literal fire does burn up literal wood, straw and stubble, SO ALSO does God's spiritual fire burn up human character flaws. We are not told of this "wood, straw and stubble" in the lake of fire, nor of the "gold, silver and precious stones."
We learn from I Cor. 3 that this is the case with the lake of fire also because these two sets of Scripture are the ONLY spiritual match in the entirety of the Bible. And just as we learn new things and additional things about the lake of fire in I Cor. 3, we also learn something new and different in Rev. 20:10 that is not mentioned in I Cor. 3.
In this lake of fire of Rev. 20 we find a most unusual thing--brimstone. BRIMSTONE? Oh No! not Brimstone! Isn't this lake of fire going to be painful enough without adding "brimstone?"
What is brimstone anyway? Everything in the book of Revelation is "signified" (Symbolized). We know that there is literal fire and there is spiritual fire; and there is literal brimstone, but is there also spiritual brimstone?
Look up the word "brimstone" in any dictionary and you will find it defined as "sulfur." Brimstone is sulfur... It is often called brimstone (burning stone) and ignited sulfur is mentioned in the earlier records of many countries as having been used for religious ceremonies, for PURIFYING (fumigating) buildings and for bleaching cloth"
But surely, according to what we have been told by doomsday prophets of eternal hell, sulfur must cause great torturing pain when brought into contact with human skin, and wouldn't the smell alone be enough to suffocate all in its presence? Continuing: "Physical Properties—Sulfur is TASTELESS and ODORLESS.
IT HAS NO ACTION ON THE SKIN" (Page 537d)!
So maybe it's just the heat that is intensified by the use of sulfur, and that is its purpose in the lake of fire—to increase the intensity of the fire's heat to cause more insane pain? Continuing: "
Physical Properties—Sulfur is A
POOR conductor of both heat and electricity..." (Page 538a)! Imagine that—a POOR CONDUCTOR OF HEAT! Is anyone beginning to see the sheer folly in the church's teaching that the lake of fire and brimstone are
literal? I sure hope so.
SCRIPTURAL USE OF FIGURATIVE FIRE
"His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were as a flame of FIRE" (Rev. 1:14).
"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes though it be tarried with FIRE, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:7).
"And the tongue is a FIRE..." (James 3:6).
"And of the angels He says, Who makes His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of FIRE" (Heb. 1:7).
"Every man's work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by FIRE; and the FIRE shall try every man's work of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3:13).
"For our God is a consuming FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
"John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I comes, the latchet of Whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with FIRE" (Luke 3:16).
"But who may abide the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's FIRE, and like fullers' soap" (Malachi 3:2).
"For in My jealousy and in the FIRE of My wrath have I spoken" (Ezek. 38;19).
"From above has He sent FIRE into my bones..." (Lamentations 1:13).
"Is not My word like as a FIRE? saith the Lord" (Jer. 23:29).
"Who makes His angels spirits; His ministers a flaming FIRE" (Psalm 104:4).
Since physical medicines cannot cure the spiritually sick, and physical sulfur cannot purge spiritual impurities, it follows that the sulfur in this lake of fire is also being used symbolically. But the physical benefits of physical sulfur used as a spiritual symbol of healing and purification is only the tip of the iceberg. What is the real origin of this word brimstone (sulfur)? Let's notice carefully the first few times that brimstone is used in the Scriptures:
"Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah BRIMSTONE and fire from the Lord out of heaven... And he [Abraham]
looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace" (Gen. 19:24 & 28).
Now in this historical event there is nothing in suggest that this destruction was figurative. No, it was a literal destruction, however, it most certainly is a spiritual and symbolic message in this destruction for our admonition today!
"Now ALL these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for OUR admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come" (I Cor. 10:11).
Notice that this destruction of these cities comes from God, but not only did God burn the cities, but the WHOLE PLAIN AND COUNTRY as well. This destruction from the Lord was so complete that even the location of these cities is a matter of conjecture to this day! But why the "brimstone?" Could God not destroy these cities with fire ALONE? Why was there brimstone in this fire?
"So that the generation to come of your children that shall rise up after you, and the stranger that shall come from a far land, shall say, when they see the plagues of that land, and the sickness which the Lord has laid upon it; and that the WHOLE LAND thereof is BRIMSTONE, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor bears, nor any grass grows therein, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah..." (Deut. 29:22-23).
Notice once again that this destruction comes from the Lord and that it is a complete and total destruction so that even grass would not grow on this land. Half of the occurrences of the word brimstone in Scripture are found in the book of Revelation. Every single time the word brimstone is used in Scripture, its source is GOD out of heaven. Satan is NEVER connected with the use of brimstone. Brimstone is as far removed from the nature of Satan as unrighteousness is removed from the nature of God. Now then, what is brimstone? Are you ready for this? After all the centuries of rank paganism being interjected into God's pure Word, it's time we blow the lid off of this heresy being published and preached by the church around the world, blaspheming the very name and nature of our Great God!
ORIGIN OF THE WORD 'BRIMSTONE'
by Ray Smith
Part two
Strong's Greek Dictionary of the New Testament: brimstone, #2303. theion. We are told that "Theion originally denoted 'fire from heaven.'" This word theion #2303 comes from the Greek word theios #2304, of which we read the following:
Theios means :
(1) DIVINE, and is used
(1a) of THE POWER OF GOD (2 Pet. 1:3), and
(1b) of HIS [GOD'S] NATURE, (2 Pet. 1:4), both of which proceed FROM HIMSELF.
(2) In Acts 17:29 it is used as a noun with the definite article, to denote THE GODHEAD, THE DEITY, THE ONE TRUE GOD." (Caps and underline emphasis are mine).
Wow! What a marvelous revelation of Spiritual Truth! So, again, why is there brimstone in the lake of fire?" Because God almighty Himself is in this fire! God IS this fire, this spiritual "CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29). This fire is not only SPIRITUAL; It is DIVINE! The lake of fire is DIVINE SPIRITUAL FIRE FROM GOD OUT OF HEAVEN TO PURGE, PURIFY, CLEANSE, AND HEAL ALL IMPURITIES OF ALL HUMANITY!!! Is this not the best news you've heard all day?
Make no mistake about it. It is by means of FIRE that all mankind will ultimately be saved! God has spoken it:
"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by FIRE [God's DIVINE {spiritual} CONSUMING FIRE, Heb. 12:29] and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be BURNED, he shall suffer loss; but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE" (I Cor. 3:13-15)!!
You say, "I don't believe it! We are saved by GRACE, not FIRE." Does "fire" contradict "grace?" Does "grace" contradict "fire?" NO, they do not contradict. "For BY GRACE are you saved..." (Eph. 2:8).
How so?
"For the GRACE of God that brings SALVATION has appeared to all men [but notice how it does something more in addition to bringing salvation], TEACHING [Greek: paideuo, TO TRAIN, EDUCATE, DISCIPLINE, PUNISH, CHASTISE, LEARN, INSTRUCT. (P. 186, Strong's Greek Dictionary of the New Testament). Such words as "discipline," "punish," and "chastise," are great TRIALS that we are to go through and endure. These things are not fun, but wearisome.
Peter has instructed us with the following wisdom:
"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto SALVATION [yes, and by 'grace'] ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein you GREATLY REJOICE [rejoice, Yes, but also with a heavy heart], though now for a season, if need be, you are IN HEAVINESS through MANIFOLD temptations [trials]: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes though it [your faith] be TRIED WITH FIRE [fire is an important aspect of saving grace], might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" (I Peter 1:5-7).
Salvation involves the trying of our faith "with FIRE." This Peter calls our "FIERY trial," "Beloved, think it not strange [this is not some unusually or rare thing—we ALL must go through it sooner or later] concerning the FIERY TRIAL which IS [certain] to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you [or you only]" (I Peter 4:12).
[COLOR="Blue"]Ray continues...[/COLOR] Interesting word, this word "lake." The word lake in Rev. 19, 20, & 21 is "limen, which comes from Strong's "[#3040—limen] (through the idea of nearness of shore); a POND (large or small) -- lake." And the word limen means "a harbor—haven, the fair havens" (Strong's Greek Dictionary, p. 151).
A pond? God judges the world in a pond? Yes, God judges every unrepentant, unbelieving, wicked person that has ever lived (billions and billions and billions of people) -- The WHOLE WORLD OF HUMANITY (who are not in the first resurrection)... in a pond. A pond of divine, purifying SPIRIT.
This word limen has the word "fair" before it in Acts 27:8, in the King James Version—the "fair havens." Other translations render this verse as "safe harbor."
Is not even the definition of this word and its root, comforting? And so even in this most solemn setting of God's judgment there is a hint of safety and security.
SAFETY AND SECURITY IN THE DIVINE LAKE OF FIRE
WHEN GRACE IS A VERB
Grace means favor, a gift, to be cheerful, well, happy, graciously, freely, deliverance from danger, and a dozen other benevolent qualities of peace, joy, goodness, and salvation. It is one of those truly wonderful words of blessing. But just how does it operate in "the real world" as we say? A definition does not tell us everything about a word. We can, likewise, define "love" as, a deep, tender feeling of affection. But does that definition tell us how love actually functions?
We learned that "... when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord" (I Cor. 11:32).
Chastening defines how it is that God judges us. Now then, we are about to learn one of the most remarkable spiritual truths in the whole Bible:
"For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men , teaching us that, deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world [eon or age]" (Titus 2:11-12).
Here then is the remarkable parallel between God's judgment and His grace:
God "judges" us by "chastening" us! (I Cor. 11:32) "chasten," Greek: 'paideuo' #3811
God "graces" us by "teaching" us! (Titus 2:12) "teaching," Greek: 'paideuo' #3811
WOW! Do you even begin to understand what you have just read? Whether God "JUDGES" us (and later the wicked world), or "GRACES" us, He does it THE SAME WAY!! "Judging" is CHASTENING (Strong's #3811), and "gracing" is CHASTENING (Strong's #3811). It is the SAME WORD!
"Grace" is not a stagnate feel-good noun -- it is also a verb -- that is, it does something; it accomplishes something; it produces something of great value in the believer.
"Teaching" accomplishes something essential in making man into God's very image.
The next verse tells us what it "teaches" us: "denying ungodliness and worldly lusts ... living soberly, righteously, and godly!" Just the words "living godly" will cover every single thing that God EVER ASKS OF US --EVERYTHING. "Living GODLY" covers every possible act of faith, love, and obedience that anyone could ever conceive of.
When God uses the SAME WORD to describe something that He wishes to accomplish, it behooves us to study deeply what that word means, especially when that word has to do with the very destiny of all peoples who have ever lived.
The subject of I Cor. 11:32 is JUDGING.
The subject of Titus 2:11 is GRACE AND SALVATION.
HOW does God "judge" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!.
HOW does God's "grace and save" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!
God JUDGES by chastening (I Cor. 11:32), and God GRACES by chastening (Titus 2:11).
By GRACE GOD JUDGES US and by JUDGING GOD GRACES US!
Gracing us by means of chastening, TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation. Judging us by means of chastening, also TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation!
When God JUDGES US THROUGH CHASTENING (I Cor. 11:32) it is for our good and for our benefit and for our salvation. Why then do we think that God changes character when He likewise judges the wicked, unjust, and non-believers at the great white throne? Why? God changes NOT! God is NOT a respecter of persons. You read all of these Scriptures. Do we think the Scriptures LIE?
If you are not rejoicing over these profound and marvelous revelations, then you must be spiritually asleep. I have just shown you one of the most remarkable truths in the entirety of the Bible!
And I ask, "What does this have to do with the lake of fire?" EVERYTHING! I am not going to go into detail on this aspect of judging yet, but suffice it to be said here that the "judging" (Greek: krino in I Cor. 11:32 by chastening that brings godly living and salvation is also the very same "judging" (Greek: krino) used in Revelation 20:12 with reference to the lake of fire.
Seriously, do many believe that these God-inspired Greek words have one meaning when applied to God judging and gracing believers now, but then have a totally different meaning when applied to as yet non-believers in the day of judging? Do you? Well, regrettably, many do think that God is fickle, inconsistent, and a respecter of persons. Can you for once in your life begin to use your God-given mind to think for yourself!
This is an absolutely marvelous teaching. God "judges" us by "chastening "(paideuo) us, which means, teaching, training, learning, disciplining, punishing, instructing, and educating. And God "graces" us also by this same "chastening" (paideuo) which does not change meaning from one Scripture verse to another. Notice how other translations render this word paideuo in Titus 2:11-12:
"Teaching us..." King James
"Instructing us..." American Standard Version
"Disciplining us... New Testament (Henry Alford)
"And schooling us..." The Centenary Translation (Montgomery)
"Training us..." The New Testament in Modern Speech (Weymouth)
Now it is true that the Greek word paideuo #3811 can also mean "punishment." But punishment is not the main force of this word. Notice that none of the above translations (nor any that I know of) translate this word, "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, PUNISHING us that denying ungodliness ..." No, the force of this word is to DISCIPLINE, TRAIN, INSTRUCT, SCHOOL AND TEACH. Let's at least have the sensibility of a ten year-old. Of what value is "disciplining, training, instructing, schooling, and teaching" if it goes on forever and ever and ever, and while being burned with fire, for ALL ETERNITY? Gee, do we think they will EVER "learn their lesson?" I, of course, speak as a fool.
All of these aspects of paideuo are with a view to amendment, correction, and setting right, not merely punishment for punishment's sake. A father chastens his children with a view to amendment and correction, not for the sole sake of CAUSING PAIN! Why do we think carnal-minded human fathers are a billion times more noble and merciful in the disciplining of their children than God is in the disciplining (chastening -- judging -- gracing) of HIS children?
Remember that Jesus Christ does not change and that He does not respect (have partiality) with regards to persons. With those two thoughts in mind, what is accomplished by the "chastening" of the Lord? He "graces" us by chastening and He "judges" us by chastening. What does it always accomplish? Answer:
"For the grace of God [that chastens us] ... BRINGS SALVATION" (Titus 2:11)!!
And all of this is of God. God judges, God graces, God chastens, and God brings SALVATION!
Perhaps you have a shortcut-formula which bypasses all these hundreds of Scriptures I am presenting and makes them all void and of non-effect? I have heard of such short-cut formulas, but God's Word knows nothing of them!
Notice:
"Being CONFIDENT of this very thing, that He [that's Christ] which hath begun a good work in you WILL PERFORM IT until the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6).
And when Christ's
"... JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world [the whole world] WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9).
As far as Christian theory goes, this Scripture in Isaiah might just a well be a lie, for they say it will never happen. They teach that the whole world will never ever learn righteousness and receive salvation. That's because they neither believe the gospel nor teach it. And so rather than bring the gospel of universal salvation, they threaten the world with universal damnation in the fires of eternal hell if they don't follow their short-cut-formulas to material wealth and spiritual salvation. And thus the name of God is being blasphemed among the nations (Rom. 2:24) to this very day.
Ray Smith
Any thoughts on Ray's work?
Paul
My first glimpse of "post-mortem correction" (I like that term) came from Hebrews 12:29 where it talks about the spirits of just men made perfect.
To come in to the presence of a "spirit" of someone would indicate that the person was no longer among the living. For that spirit to have been made perfect indicates clearly to this teacher that spiritual growth and correction continues after this tabernacle of flesh has been folded and put away. A "just man" is not necessarily the same as a perfect man. The only way I see for a just man to be made perfect is for it to take place in the afterlife.
I posted this elsewhere, but I think it is fitting here:
Malachi
3:3 says:'He
will sit as a refiner and purifier of
silver.'
This verse puzzled some women
in a Bible study and they
wondered what this statement
meant about the character and
nature of God.
One of the women offered to
find out the process of refining
silver and get back to
the group
at their next Bible Study.
That week, the woman called a
silversmith and made an
appointment
to watch him at
work. She didn't mention
anything about the reason for
her interest beyond her curiosity
about the process of refining
Silver.
As she watched the silversmith,
he held a piece of silver over
the fire and let it heat up. He
explained that in refining silver,
one needed to hold the silver in
the middle of the fire where
the flames were hottest as to
burn away all the impurities.
The woman thought
about God holding us in such a hot spot;
then she thought again about
the verse that says:
'He sits as a
refiner and purifier of silver.'
She asked the silversmith if it
was true that he had to sit there
in front of the fire the whole
time.
The man answered that
yes, he
not only had to sit there holding
the silver, but he had to keep
his eyes on the silver the entire
time it was in the fire. If the silver
was left a moment too long in the flames, it
would be destroyed.
The woman was silent for a
moment. Then she asked the silversmith, 'How
do you know
when the silver is fully
refined?'
He smiled at
her and answered,
'Oh, that's easy -- when I see
my image in it.'
Quote from: chaela on January 30, 2008, 08:55:50 PM
I'm heavily involved in discussing universal reconciliation with the yet-to-be-convinced, and one claim I'm confronted with is that the notion of post-mortem-correction is a means of "earning" one's salvation. It then usually gets compared with the Purgatory of Roman Catholicism, which is taught to be a means of purification. I always thought our purification/justification came through Christ's death on the cross, so is purification what is going on in post-mortem-correction, or something else entirely? I would hate to think that my belief in a temporary hell also led to the conclusion that salvation can be "earned" by suffering temporarily, since it's not our own efforts that save us anyway. Hope all this made sense, lol!
I've never understood the confusion over this point, although I've seen both Universalists and ETers confused on this point. If you receive punishment in this life for sin before you came to Christ, was that a part of your salvation? Most Christians would usually say 'no,' that all it was, was some crap finally hitting the fan. For instance, you got drunk one night and then got behind the wheel of a car and had a wreck. Was the wreck a part of God making the work of Christ somehow valid in your life? No! A hundred thousand times no! If someone fornicated and caught some disease, was that the redemptive process of God at work in their life in this life? No! Though they may have come to Christ after it, that was simply the consequences of their actions rather than God's way of bringing about anything. One would hope that one would stop such fornication both to avoid a worse set of evils and in the hopes that with proper nutrition and adjustment in their lifestyle that the disease would be reverseable.
Again, even in such a scenario, they're not "earning" anything with God, but they're perhaps prolonging their lives, rebuilding their immune systems, and having a private miracle through vitamins and various supplements. The goal of things like that is to make life easier on one's self. Neither the punishment nor the blessing were in any way related to one's relationship with God when they were both the outcome of natural processes in a given situation. Would this suddenly become a way of being saved -- on either account of either punishment or recovery -- just because all of this was going on in Jerusalem instead of in Washington, D.C.? That would be preposterous. What does your geographical location have to do with either consequences or the benefits of doing the right things where your natural life and health are concerned? In either situation, whether your stupidity or [your recovery of] your sanity where living a healthy life are concerned has almost nothing to do with your relationship with God regardless of where you're at!
If a child is repeatedly warned about not playing with a ball and a bat inside of the house and the child breaks the television with either the ball or the bat, is the punishment that they'll receive in any way a vital necessity to the restoration of their relationship with their parents? No! A hundred thousand times no! It's simply a matter of consequences and an attempt at detering further wickedness to the household and their relationship with their parents that's established upon other grounds.
Afterlife punishments, were there any, would be about consequences and deterence from further wickedness against God, but they wouldn't establish grounds for reconciliation with God. That is purely through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, His faith and His faithfulness, and the provisions of His Blood, Resurrection, and Calling. If something in either the Creation [or the perception of others of God's glory] needed to be balanced by your afterlife punishments, then you could in no way prevent them from coming upon you. However, your relationship with God is through Jesus Christ and His shed Blood alone, Whose act of Covenant Representation provides you not only with salvation but with an eternal security of that salvation.
I think its also important to note that purgatory is apart from Father's presence. (However this should be possible I don't know.) :laughing7:
While 'hell' as a place of correction is in and by His presence. The destruction of the old man/false identity of the carnal mind (Adam) comes from the presence of the Lord.