(Or it would be weird if we didn't know the Lord!) This morning I noticed a couple of books from a corner, my cat had knocked over, so I picked them up. And one of them was a little daily Bible verse, or two, book called "Our Daily Bread - Readings For Everyday". The readings are veRy brief. I bought it years ago for my husband. It's a nice little book with a loaf of (homemade) bread and slices and a sheaf of wheat nicely illustrated on the front.
So I decided to include it in my morning quiet time reading. I opened it where the bookmark was, and lo and behold it was at September 30, today's date. And the verse was 2 Timothy 2:20 (NASB) - "Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor."
This verse reverberated with me because I like to say the reason there's two resurrections, or that is, there's the elect or chosen (gold, silver) and those not chosen (during this life, wood, clay) imo, is because this life is a narrative or 'truth proving' drama, and it's like with a movie. You need more than one character.
If, that be the case.. or if God's will is supreme and all in all (which of course it is) then why should "punishment" in a hereafter be necessary?
Will those of the second resurrection really need to suffer more in order to repent and be born again?
It's not that the chosen are in any way superior (not before being born again that is). Don't forget, many of those of the second resurrection have never even ever heard of Christ and His atonement on behalf of mankind so they have not yet "believed".
I believe there is a millennium while the second resurrection is still asleep/reposing/imo,unconscious (called "Trumpets")
Then I think there's a half a millennium, which will be a long Day of Atonement (called the "Great White Throne Judgment"/proving/setting straight. At the opening of which, the second resurrection arrives DOA (sorry I can't resist the play on DOA / dead on arrival / Day of Atonement).
Millennium and half a millennium patterned after the Autumn Holy Days of Trumpets, then ten days later Day of Atonement and five days later, "Tabernacles" when God Himself will "dwell with mankind and make all things new" (Rev 21:1-5).
Or, in other words(?) having cast death and the grave (commonly translated 'hell') and all suffering, all negative, etc, into the Lake of Fire (here as not being) God Himself, the consuming fire of anything not pure, not perfect, not genuine, not true, will come to dwell with mankind upon a planet, in a galaxy, in a universe.. all made new.
Beautiful! :thumbsup:
But I'm unsure of this millennium / half millennium concept. :dunno2: Where can I learn more about this?
Quote from: marie glen on September 30, 2013, 06:54:12 PM
If, that be the case.. or if God's will is supreme and all in all (which of course it is) then why should "punishment" in a hereafter be necessary?
Will those of the second resurrection really need to suffer more in order to repent and be born again?
It's not that the chosen are in any way superior (not before being born again that is). Don't forget, many of those of the second resurrection have never even ever heard of Christ and His atonement on behalf of mankind so they have not yet "believed".
I do not believe there is a need for "punishment". I know some disagree, and there are some verses indicating pain (weeping and gnashing of teeth, etc). But IMO, the punishment of being immersed into the Lake of Fire, aka Gods presence aka LOVE is overwhelming, but the only suffering is kinda like when you get into a very hot hot tub. It stings for a minute because your body has to acclimate. But then its Amazing.
:2c:
For me the shame or the not being ashamed is going to be the ''thing'' that is the punishment
I remember Jesus stating , that the shame of your nakedness does not appear before Him , Just as the Lord asked Adam in the garden who told you your where naked ? they were ashamed to come appear before HIM .
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Being ashamed has a torment of itself to me
there are alot more scriptures , but here is a few examples
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Hbr 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Jo 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Just some things I have considered and share here
Marie Glenda ! my grandpa used to give me daily breads often , years ago and how I miss those times sis!!
Quote from: redhotmagma on September 30, 2013, 09:18:45 PM
Quote from: marie glen on September 30, 2013, 06:54:12 PM
If, that be the case.. or if God's will is supreme and all in all (which of course it is) then why should "punishment" in a hereafter be necessary?
Will those of the second resurrection really need to suffer more in order to repent and be born again?
It's not that the chosen are in any way superior (not before being born again that is). Don't forget, many of those of the second resurrection have never even ever heard of Christ and His atonement on behalf of mankind so they have not yet "believed".
I do not believe there is a need for "punishment". I know some disagree, and there are some verses indicating pain (weeping and gnashing of teeth, etc). But IMO, the punishment of being immersed into the Lake of Fire, aka Gods presence aka LOVE is overwhelming, but the only suffering is kinda like when you get into a very hot hot tub. It stings for a minute because your body has to acclimate. But then its Amazing.
:2c:
[2Th 1:9 ESV] They will suffer the punishment of eternal [aionios] destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day...
This scripture says there
will be punishment, but I don't think God would punish anyone without there be a need. So then why do you believe there will be no need for punishment?
Also, the phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth" I believe describes deep sorrow, rather than an indication of pain.
hmmnn....shame can make your skin red..just like hot-tub. :Chinscratch:.......
I've had mycheeks stinging more then a few times :mblush:
Quote from: redhotmagma on September 30, 2013, 09:18:45 PM
I do not believe there is a need for "punishment". I know some disagree, and there are some verses indicating pain (weeping and gnashing of teeth, etc). But IMO, the punishment of being immersed into the Lake of Fire, aka Gods presence aka LOVE is overwhelming, but the only suffering is kinda like when you get into a very hot hot tub. It stings for a minute because your body has to acclimate. But then its Amazing.
:2c:
Oh there will be plenty of figurative weeping and gnashing of teeth, but it won't be from those that are being purified. :HeartThrob:
Rather the spirits of darkness that have tried to lure Fathers children into a den of despair will find much to weep about when they are forced into the light of truth.
The church even get's this wrong, but the many ET'ers will be in awe of the Love of Father and the multitude who stand with Christ who accept them with open arms, just as the father of the prodigal son.
Love is EVERYTHING!!!!!! :HeartThrob:
Love Julie
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 30, 2013, 10:24:20 PM
[2Th 1:9 ESV] They will suffer the punishment of eternal [aionios] destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day...
This scripture says there will be punishment, but I don't think God would punish anyone without there be a need. So then why do you believe there will be no need for punishment?
Also, the phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth" I believe describes deep sorrow, rather than an indication of pain.
JB, please do a study on the word "PUNISH" you will find that it does not give true meaning to the original word. You will likely be amazed that the correct rendering is mostly connected to "Correction."
Something we are all in need of. :eek:
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on September 30, 2013, 10:41:48 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on September 30, 2013, 09:18:45 PM
I do not believe there is a need for "punishment". I know some disagree, and there are some verses indicating pain (weeping and gnashing of teeth, etc). But IMO, the punishment of being immersed into the Lake of Fire, aka Gods presence aka LOVE is overwhelming, but the only suffering is kinda like when you get into a very hot hot tub. It stings for a minute because your body has to acclimate. But then its Amazing.
:2c:
Oh there will be plenty of figurative weeping and gnashing of teeth, but it won't be from those that are being purified. :HeartThrob:
Rather the spirits of darkness that have tried to lure Fathers children into a den of despair will find much to weep about when they are forced into the light of truth.
The church even get's this wrong, but the many ET'ers will be in awe of the Love of Father and the multitude who stand with Christ who accept them with open arms, just as the father of the prodigal son.
Love is EVERYTHING!!!!!! :HeartThrob:
Love Julie
I never thought of that before. The scripture does not say that the wicked or unbelievers will "weep and gnash their teeth" - it simply says "in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Doesn't say who will be doing it. :Chinscratch:
OTOH, I would not assume that it will be the evil spirits either - unless you have a scripture reference to back that up?
if you read the preceding versus ..you willsee it was those who persecuted andcaused
those who beleivedin Him trouble[see dragon persecuting..floodwaters to try aand causethe
woman to be washed away..and go after the woman'soffspring..to war withthem.]
the LOF is prepared for satanandhis angels.
so ineffect..allenemies ofLove and Truth will be consumed...For the Glory ofGodand
deliverance of man
:thumbsup:Julie
can you say LOF PREPARED FOR satanandhis demons
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 30, 2013, 07:02:05 PM
Beautiful! :thumbsup:
But I'm unsure of this millennium / half millennium concept. :dunno2: Where can I learn more about this?
All I can think of is Leviticus 23, which you likely know, describes the Holy Seasons, the Spring and the Fall. I'll include a link to the verses on Bible Gateway..
I think I read somewhere online some time ago, someone say "if the Spring Holy Days prophesied Jesus' first advent, then why not the Fall ones prophecy the" (long) "second one?" And somewhere along the line I seem to have picked up the word "long"... then when in prayer I noticed there seem to be three peaks making up the second advent, and there are three Fall Holy Days.
The Holy Days being of course "Trumpets", the "Day of Atonement" (
Lev 23:27,29--
a day of affliction/afflicting one's soul, repentance is how ancient Israel interpreted it.. with wailing, I believe I read somewhere about that Holy Day..) and then "Tabernacles".
And the three peaks of the second advent of Jesus (1) returning with His angels and the sound of a trumpet blast, (2) Day of Judgment after/at the second resurrection, and then the happy 'conclusion' when our Father Himself "makes all things new and will now (3) Tabernacle with man on earth.
Then while in prayerful quiet time and study, it seemed mighty co-incidental that between (1)"Trumpets" and (2)"Day Of Atonement" is 1O days, and between (1)Jesus' return and (2) Judgement Day/second resurrection is 1OOO years. If those correlate, as it sure seemed to my mind to be doing, then wouldn't the "5 days" - half the time between (1) and (2) - between (2)"Day of Atonement" and (3)"Tabernacles" correspond to 5OO years between (2)"Judgment Day" and (3)"Tabernacles" - if we may call it that, when God Himself, Great Creator makes all things new and will come to the earth to "dwell with man"..? Still in prayerful contemplation and study.. Well, I guess that's where I picked up the word "long".. And other logical prayerful contemplations have come to play.. If "Day of Atonement" lasts roughly 5OO years (represented by the "5 days" between Fall Holy Day (2) and (3) like the "1O days" between Fall Holy Day (1) and (2) representing the 1OOO long millennium..
* * * *
This is related - Over the years Rev 19:11-21 has grown to seem to be a LOF but one of man's making by his splitting of the atom.. fiery judgment for an advanced(?) day, as opposed to fiery judgments/consequences/results of Old Testament times..
Then Rev 20:7-9 which seems to be another LOF of sorts (did you read the article at the link someone, I forget who :smile: left at another discussion - the aticle: "The Lake of Fire Pt 2" http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article10_lake_of_fire_pt2.html (http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article10_lake_of_fire_pt2.html) - It's very interesting I haven't finished it yet. Loses me a little if/when he wanders from the Word.. but as far as I've read very interesting! I'm not halfway yet.
Then there's the verses in chapter 7 of Daniel, verses 13,14, 22, 27 (12:9?) Well, that's about it, I'm sure it exists in the land of Bible acadamia, public, private and/or personal, somewhere, besides in my head.. And of course I think it's in the verses..
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Lev%2023:24,27,29,34;Daniel%207:13,14,%2022,%2027;Daniel%2012:9;Rev%2019:11-21;Rev%2020:7-9,11-14;%2021:3&version=NKJV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Lev%2023:24,27,29,34;Daniel%207:13,14,%2022,%2027;Daniel%2012:9;Rev%2019:11-21;Rev%2020:7-9,11-14;%2021:3&version=NKJV)
(with the Fall Holy Days of the 7th month, days 1,10 and 15)
:Peace2: :Chinscratch:
Quote from: redhotmagma on September 30, 2013, 09:18:45 PM
Quote from: marie glen on September 30, 2013, 06:54:12 PM
If, that be the case.. or if God's will is supreme and all in all (which of course it is) then why should "punishment" in a hereafter be necessary?
Will those of the second resurrection really need to suffer more in order to repent and be born again?
It's not that the chosen are in any way superior (not before being born again that is). Don't forget, many of those of the second resurrection have never even ever heard of Christ and His atonement on behalf of mankind so they have not yet "believed".
I do not believe there is a need for "punishment". I know some disagree, and there are some verses indicating pain (weeping and gnashing of teeth, etc). But IMO, the punishment of being immersed into the Lake of Fire, aka Gods presence aka LOVE is overwhelming, but the only suffering is kinda like when you get into a very hot hot tub. It stings for a minute because your body has to acclimate. But then its Amazing.
:2c:
...I'm thinking almost like we felt when we first believed and repented and mourned over our sins.. :Chinscratch: :btantrum: :flamebreath:
Quote from: rosered on September 30, 2013, 10:05:32 PM
For me the shame or the not being ashamed is going to be the "thing" that is the punishment
I remember Jesus stating , that the shame of your nakedness does not appear before Him , Just as the Lord asked Adam in the garden who told you your where naked ? they were ashamed to come appear before HIM .
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Being ashamed has a torment of itself to me
there are alot more scriptures , but here is a few examples
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Hbr 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Jo 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Just some things I have considered and share here
Yes! that's a large part what I'm thinking (and saying) :iagree:
Quote from: rosered on September 30, 2013, 10:09:21 PM
Marie Glenda ! my grandpa used to give me daily breads often , years ago and how I miss those times sis!!
I'll bet!! I remember those! Or I think i know what you're talking about.. the little (plastic?) loaf with cardboard scriptures you picked from for each day! I had one years and years ago.. I saw one recently on ebay or amazon - should've bought it!!
:gsmile:
I think the "lamentation and gnashing of teeth" refers to the kingdom in Israel. See the attachment.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: marie glen on September 30, 2013, 11:35:33 PM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 30, 2013, 07:02:05 PM
Beautiful! :thumbsup:
But I'm unsure of this millennium / half millennium concept. :dunno2: Where can I learn more about this?
All I can think of is Leviticus 23, which you likely know, describes the Holy Seasons, the Spring and the Fall. I'll include a link to the verses on Bible Gateway..
I think I read somewhere online some time ago, someone say "if the Spring Holy Days prophesied Jesus' first advent, then why not the Fall ones prophecy the" (long) "second one?" And somewhere along the line I seem to have picked up the word "long"... then when in prayer I noticed there seem to be three peaks making up the second advent, and there are three Fall Holy Days.
The Holy Days being of course "Trumpets", the "Day of Atonement" (Lev 23:27,29--a day of affliction/afflicting one's soul, repentance is how ancient Israel interpreted it.. with wailing, I believe I read somewhere about that Holy Day..) and then "Tabernacles".
And the three peaks of the second advent of Jesus (1) returning with His angels and the sound of a trumpet blast, (2) Day of Judgment after/at the second resurrection, and then the happy 'conclusion' when our Father Himself "makes all things new and will now (3) Tabernacle with man on earth.
Then while in prayerful quiet time and study, it seemed mighty co-incidental that between (1)"Trumpets" and (2)"Day Of Atonement" is 1O days, and between (1)Jesus' return and (2) Judgement Day/second resurrection is 1OOO years. If those correlate, as it sure seemed to my mind to be doing, then wouldn't the "5 days" - half the time between (1) and (2) - between (2)"Day of Atonement" and (3)"Tabernacles" correspond to 5OO years between (2)"Judgment Day" and (3)"Tabernacles" - if we may call it that, when God Himself, Great Creator makes all things new and will come to the earth to "dwell with man"..? Still in prayerful contemplation and study.. Well, I guess that's where I picked up the word "long".. And other logical prayerful contemplations have come to play.. If "Day of Atonement" lasts roughly 5OO years (represented by the "5 days" between Fall Holy Day (2) and (3) like the "1O days" between Fall Holy Day (1) and (2) representing the 1OOO long millennium..
* * * *
This is related - Over the years Rev 19:11-21 has grown to seem to be a LOF but one of man's making by his splitting of the atom.. fiery judgment for an advanced(?) day, as opposed to fiery judgments/consequences/results of Old Testament times..
Then Rev 20:7-9 which seems to be another LOF of sorts (did you read the article at the link someone, I forget who :smile: left at another discussion - the aticle: "The Lake of Fire Pt 2" http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article10_lake_of_fire_pt2.html (http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article10_lake_of_fire_pt2.html) - It's very interesting I haven't finished it yet. Loses me a little if/when he wanders from the Word.. but as far as I've read very interesting! I'm not halfway yet.
Then there's the verses in chapter 7 of Daniel, verses 13,14, 22, 27 (12:9?) Well, that's about it, I'm sure it exists in the land of Bible acadamia, public, private and/or personal, somewhere, besides in my head.. And of course I think it's in the verses..
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Lev%2023:24,27,29,34;Daniel%207:13,14,%2022,%2027;Daniel%2012:9;Rev%2019:11-21;Rev%2020:7-9,11-14;%2021:3&version=NKJV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Lev%2023:24,27,29,34;Daniel%207:13,14,%2022,%2027;Daniel%2012:9;Rev%2019:11-21;Rev%2020:7-9,11-14;%2021:3&version=NKJV)
(with the Fall Holy Days of the 7th month, days 1,10 and 15)
:Peace2: :Chinscratch:
Thanks, Marie :thumbsup:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 30, 2013, 10:24:20 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on September 30, 2013, 09:18:45 PM
Quote from: marie glen on September 30, 2013, 06:54:12 PM
If, that be the case.. or if God's will is supreme and all in all (which of course it is) then why should "punishment" in a hereafter be necessary?
Will those of the second resurrection really need to suffer more in order to repent and be born again?
It's not that the chosen are in any way superior (not before being born again that is). Don't forget, many of those of the second resurrection have never even ever heard of Christ and His atonement on behalf of mankind so they have not yet "believed".
I do not believe there is a need for "punishment". I know some disagree, and there are some verses indicating pain (weeping and gnashing of teeth, etc). But IMO, the punishment of being immersed into the Lake of Fire, aka Gods presence aka LOVE is overwhelming, but the only suffering is kinda like when you get into a very hot hot tub. It stings for a minute because your body has to acclimate. But then its Amazing.
:2c:
[2Th 1:9 ESV] They will suffer the punishment of eternal [aionios] destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day...
This scripture says there will be punishment, but I don't think God would punish anyone without there be a need. So then why do you believe there will be no need for punishment?
Also, the phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth" I believe describes deep sorrow, rather than an indication of pain.
That describes ancient Israel's "Day of Atonement" to a T... (imo)
I did a search and it seems there's quite a few theories out there as to the Spring Feasts and Fall Feast prophesying the 1st and 2nd Advents of Jesus..
a couple of links on this which look interesting (which I only partially scanned however)
Long but they seem to start out good,
tho not understanding UR, they seem to miss somewhat,
and "elul" seems to be an addition to Lev 23:
http://www.cofac.org/atonement.html (http://www.cofac.org/atonement.html) - goes into the two goats, the scapegoat..
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/festivals_2/4.html (http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/festivals_2/4.html) - the very positive side..
This one is interesting from a Jewish believer point of view:
http://www.jewishvoice.org/messianic-education/jewish-roots/feasts/prophetic-nature.html (http://www.jewishvoice.org/messianic-education/jewish-roots/feasts/prophetic-nature.html)
Quote from: JulieTang84 on September 30, 2013, 10:41:48 PM
The church even get's this wrong, but the many ET'ers will be in awe of the Love of Father and the multitude who stand with Christ who accept them with open arms, just as the father of the prodigal son.
Love is EVERYTHING!!!!!! :HeartThrob:
Love Julie
I believe that! That the 2nd resurrection which had "died in their sins" therefor rise in their sins (DOA) but learn of God's Great Plan of Salvation.. repent, mourn their sins for a bit like we did, then will "believe" and thus their names will be (added) in the Book of Life, for what is required to have one's name written in the Book of Life? And where does it say this can ONLY occur beFore one's death? (Making this a Great Day of Atonement/AT-One-Ment... for "all"... Because "Love IS everything"!
If the Fall Feast schedule typifies the events of the 2nd advent, and the millennium of Jesus lasts "1000 years" (typified by the "ten days" feast of trumpets) and between Atonement and Tabernacles is 5 days, I believe that allows 500 years for all of the 2nd resurrection to believe, repent and be born again.. experiencing a Lake of Fiery repentance and purification/transformation the same as the elect did/do..
I finally did a search online on the Fall Feasts as prophecy and/or as typifying the 2nd Advent of Jesus, and there's lots of theories out there! But not understanding UR and all that says about our dear Father, these theories, to me, seem to fall short.. But! I see more than just I am onto this idea.. :myahoo:
Quote from: sheila on September 30, 2013, 10:56:33 PM
can you say LOF PREPARED FOR satanandhis demons
I recently did a study of the verses listed in the concordance which include "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" or "wailing and gnashing of teeth".. very interesting.. [and compared it to Lev 23:26-29 ("not of works, lest any should boast")]
I agree that the LOF is for the devil and his angels.. Even those two of rev 19:20 who are thrown alive into the LOF (at Jesus' return) are, imo, institutions of men (and devils) which are
active at the time.. The beast here being the big or world (body?)/beast of rev 13:1-10 (not the little one of 11-18 which is a two horned office which released a new fire, the 'miracle' or ability of, given by)
the second one thrown into the LOF at Jesus' return, the false prophet/teaching(?)/theory(?) which began as a man but became a white frocked magician, one which developed the fire capability I just mentioned of rev 13:13 and also that notorious end time 666 apparatus.. who else does miracles and wonders more than our white frocked magicians? And thus far? Imo (Rev 19:20) No humans in the LOF, or at least the one which is "the 2nd death". I believe fiery judgments whether literal or spiritual are also LOF's.. Like at Rev 19:11-14 and 20:7-9.
:gsmile:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 30, 2013, 10:51:37 PM
I never thought of that before. The scripture does not say that the wicked or unbelievers will "weep and gnash their teeth" - it simply says "in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Doesn't say who will be doing it. :Chinscratch:
OTOH, I would not assume that it will be the evil spirits either - unless you have a scripture reference to back that up?
JB Love is what Love does. If LOVE in its purest form must punish to the point of tears and gnashing of teeth then the LOVE is far less perfect than my own. For pure love heals, protects, nurtures and removes all blemishes by its pure brilliance. This is the LOVE that Jesus taught. Please do not be pulled into the snare of popular belief.
Father IS LOVE and Jesus Forgave. This is truth.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: sheila on September 30, 2013, 10:56:33 PM
can you say LOF PREPARED FOR satanandhis demons
Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
I always wondered about that verse. Is it a conclusive list? I think it depends on the translation/interpretation of 'angels'.
Humans are no angels but I can, for example, see ET preachers are satan's messengers.
Demons are no angels (devils are) but they can be messengers I assume.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 30, 2013, 10:24:20 PMAlso, the phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth" I believe describes deep sorrow, rather than an indication of pain.
The weeping is not because where they are but where they want to be. They are kicked out of the room/house with the wedding party. That includes everyone not holding a burning lamp when the groom arrives. The 5 foolish virgins didn't and were not let in. Keep in mind the 5 were not enemies of the groom (Jesus) because obviously it was an honor being a bridesmaid. I would say they are slacking Christians and similar. Not Christ haters as so many seem to think.
"Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers." (Matthew 25:41)
"41 The Slanderer and his messengers will be the chief instigators of the fearful anti-Semitic outbreak of the end time. It will be the greatest of all pogroms, and men will be urged on by malignant spirit powers to do all that is possible to exterminate the people who refuse to worship Satan's christ, or to bow down to his image. Being superhuman, the wild beast and the false prophet will have their portion in that lake of fire into which the Slanderer is cast more than a millennium later (Un.20:10)." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 49)
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
Quote from: Tom on October 01, 2013, 06:55:52 PM
"Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers." (Matthew 25:41)
"41 The Slanderer and his messengers will be the chief instigators of the fearful anti-Semitic outbreak of the end time. It will be the greatest of all pogroms, and men will be urged on by malignant spirit powers to do all that is possible to exterminate the people who refuse to worship Satan's christ, or to bow down to his image. Being superhuman, the wild beast and the false prophet will have their portion in that lake of fire into which the Slanderer is cast more than a millennium later (Un.20:10)." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 49)
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
I find myself thinking when Jesus returns "with angels and with fire" - I think of "the fire" as fiery judgment like in Old Testament days but as man's splitting of the atom, as I figure all of this "shadow of death" is the natural result and consequences of mankind's own doings.. God proving (for all eternity?) what is good from what is evil (life from death and what works from what simply never can)..
'destruction intended for the devil and his angels' but those who don't know, are backslidden, or especially those who are carrying out evil in the day will have their part in that fiery judgment/consequence,result.. a LOF on earth in the Middle East in the "valley of decision" the one which runs down to the dead sea, the first (example of a fiery judgment) Lake Of Fire destruction.. from which the smoke of them all will rise up forever and ever, a poetic way of saying the memory of them will never be forgotten.
When I think of our Father God, I find myself with this word in my mind "purpose" (His purpose).. Imo, what He is doing/His purpose, is revealed in our Holy Writ and also how He is bringing it all about..
thanks for the link to the chart to check out.. :smile:
Quote from: marie glen on October 01, 2013, 09:24:30 PM
Quote from: Tom on October 01, 2013, 06:55:52 PM
"Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers." (Matthew 25:41)
"41 The Slanderer and his messengers will be the chief instigators of the fearful anti-Semitic outbreak of the end time. It will be the greatest of all pogroms, and men will be urged on by malignant spirit powers to do all that is possible to exterminate the people who refuse to worship Satan's christ, or to bow down to his image. Being superhuman, the wild beast and the false prophet will have their portion in that lake of fire into which the Slanderer is cast more than a millennium later (Un.20:10)." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 49)
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
I find myself thinking when Jesus returns "with angels and with fire" - I think of "the fire" as fiery judgment like in Old Testament days but as man's splitting of the atom, as I figure all of this "shadow of death" is the natural result and consequences of mankind's own doings.. God proving (for all eternity?) what is good from what is evil (life from death and what works from what simply never can)..
'destruction intended for the devil and his angels' but those who don't know, are backslidden, or especially those who are carrying out evil in the day will have their part in that fiery judgment/consequence,result.. a LOF on earth in the Middle East in the "valley of decision" the one which runs down to the dead sea, the first (example of a fiery judgment) Lake Of Fire destruction.. from which the smoke of them all will rise up forever and ever, a poetic way of saying the memory of them will never be forgotten.
When I think of our Father God, I find myself with this word in my mind "purpose" (His purpose).. Imo, what He is doing/His purpose, is revealed in our Holy Writ and also how He is bringing it all about..
thanks for the link to the chart to check out.. :smile:
Check out the info below the chart regarding the scripture quote.
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
Quote from: Tom on October 01, 2013, 09:43:54 PM
Check out the info below the chart regarding the scripture quote.
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
But that means ppl cast into the LOF (as the 2nd death) at Jesus' return [sentence before judgment (day) which to me doesn't jive with God's nature]
Matthew 25:31,41Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
31 "And whenever the Son of Man may come in his glory, and all the holy messengers with him, then he shall sit upon a throne of his glory; ...
41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers" - Imo, the effect (destruction) is ageduring/during the millennium age, until the 2nd resurrection..
This article here - http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article10_lake_of_fire_pt2.html (http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article10_lake_of_fire_pt2.html) - is along the lines I believe.. tho it loses me when it strays from the Bible, and tho it's very long you can catch the drift of it by reading a few paragraphs...
The word "fire" is from Strong's Greek #4442 "pur - a primary word: "fire" lit. or fig., spec. lightning: - fiery, fire"
the italics of "lightning" is Strong's italics..
the "to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;" is what equates it to the LOF (imo, a LOF) but I think it means - to the destruction, age-during, that has been prepared for the Devil and his messengers.. destruction being destruction, but the LOF as the 2nd death to me, involves gone.. as death and the grave will be gone.. and not just for an age or two.. whereas I believe those adversarial nations and ppl at Jesus' return will experience destruction as age lasting (i.e. during the millennium) and not as the 2nd death/gone like death and the grave..
:smile:
Quote from: marie glen on October 01, 2013, 10:22:59 PM
Quote from: Tom on October 01, 2013, 09:43:54 PM
Check out the info below the chart regarding the scripture quote.
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
But that means ppl cast into the LOF (as the 2nd death) at Jesus' return [sentence before judgment (day) which to me doesn't jive with God's nature]
Matthew 25:31,41
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
31 "And whenever the Son of Man may come in his glory, and all the holy messengers with him, then he shall sit upon a throne of his glory; ...41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers" - Imo, the effect (destruction) is ageduring/during the millennium age, until the 2nd resurrection..
This article here - http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article10_lake_of_fire_pt2.html (http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article10_lake_of_fire_pt2.html) - is along the lines I believe.. tho it loses me when it strays from the Bible, and tho it's very long you can catch the drift of it by reading a few paragraphs...
"31 "Now, whenever the Son of Mankind may be coming in His glory, and all the holy messengers with Him, then shall He be seated on the throne of His glory,
32 and in front of Him shall be gathered all the nations. And He shall be severing them from one another even as a shepherd is severing the sheep from the kids.
33 And He shall be standing the sheep, indeed, at His right, yet the kids at the left.
34 "Then shall the King be declaring to those at His right, 'Hither, blessed of My Father! Enjoy the allotment of the kingdom made ready for you from the disruption of the world.
35 For I hunger and you give Me to eat' I thirst and you give Me drink; a stranger was I and you took Me in;
36 naked and you clothed Me; infirm am I and you visit Me; in jail was I and you come to Me.'
37 "Then the just will be answering Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive Thee hungering and nourish Thee, or thirsting and we give Thee drink?
38 Now when did we perceive Thee a stranger and took Thee in, or naked and we clothed Thee?
39 Now when did we perceive Thee infirm, or in jail, and we came to Thee?'
40 "And, answering, the King shall be declaring to them, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it to one of these, the least of My brethren, you do it to Me.'
41 "Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers.
42 For I hunger and you do not give Me to eat; I thirst and you do not give Me drink;
43 a stranger was I and you did not take Me in; naked and you did not clothe Me; infirm and in jail and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then shall they also be answering, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive you hungering or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in jail, and we did not serve you?'
45 "Then shall He be answering them, saying, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it not to one of these, the least, neither do you it to Me.'
46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." (Matthew 25:31-46)
"31 The many judgments in the Scriptures should be carefully distinguished as to time and place and participants and the attending circumstances. There is no "general judgment", for the saints are judged in the cross of Christ. The individual judgment of the unbeliever for his sins does not take place in this life, but in resurrection. All mankind except those who are Christ's will be raised from the dead to stand before the great white throne, which is not set up until after the coming kingdom eon has run its course (Un.20:11). The judgment here presented differs in time, in place, in character and in purpose. It occurs at the commencement of the kingdom, at His coming in glory, while the great white throne session does not take place until after the thousand years. This judgment is on the earth. The earth will flee before the great white throne (Un.20:11). Living nations will appear before the Son of Mankind, but only the dead come before the later tribunal. The nations are judged as such, not their sins, but according to their treatment of Israel during the time of their affliction.
When God is judging the earth no greater act of righteousness can be done than to feed and shelter His oppressed people. Each faithful Israelite stands in the place of Christ toward the nations. Those who help them do so at the greatest risk, for they may be called to account by the powers that oppose them. This tribunal is not concerned with their ultimate destiny, but with their place in the kingdom. The kingdom will be comprised largely of gentiles, subordinate to Israel politically and religiously, but nevertheless the recipients of much blessing. All that they receive comes to them through Israel, while the present grace which we enjoy comes to us because Israel as a channel is choked, yet the super-abundance of the grace overflows all barriers. We have every reason to treat the Jews with the utmost grace, but our conduct toward them is not a factor in our destiny. We do not enter the kingdom, because we have a higher and more honorable allotment among the celestials.
40 See 10:42.
40 The "brethren" of Christ, in the kingdom, are His fellow Israelites, in contrast with those of other nations. These do not appear before this tribunal. Their judgment is dealt with in the preceding parables.
41 The Slanderer and his messengers will be the chief instigators of the fearful anti-Semitic outbreak of the end time. It will be the greatest of all pogroms, and men will be urged on by malignant spirit powers to do all that is possible to exterminate the people who refuse to worship Satan's christ, or to bow down to his image. Being superhuman, the wild beast and the false prophet will have their portion in that lake of fire into which the Slanderer is cast more than a millennium later (Un.20:10).
46 Eonian chastening is here limited to the nations who will not succor the faithful of Israel in their time of sore distress. It has no bearing on the sins of individuals. The justice of fire eonian is disciplinary and corrective (cf Jude 7)." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 49)
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html