I've been thinking about that lake of fire and what sort of fire this is. It is written: Heb 12.23 for our God is a consuming fire. I was thinking and wondering about this fire which I believe many have mistaken to be hell.
Moses stood in front of a burning bush but that bush was not consumed: Ex 3:2 The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of [fn]a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed
The same could be said of Shadrack, Meshak and Abednago: Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the door of the furnace of blazing fire; he responded and said, "Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, come out, you servants of the Most High God, and come here!" Then Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego came out of the midst of the fire.
The Lord was in there with them and loosened their bonds but not a hair of their heads was singed. I think that this is a picture of the fire in the Lake? Their bonds could, in a spiritual sense, be the things that bound them in the flesh. That would make this fire a fire of purification and cleansing. A far cry from the eternal torture believed by the Greeks and certain early church fathers.
Does anyone have thoughts and/or wisdom to share in this matter?
Blessings to all :Peace2:
Jock.
Fire = Law = HS
:2c:
WW, don't get it, can you elaborate?
Jock
This might help.
Mal 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap.
The consuming fire consumes impurities just like soap washes them away.
1Cr 3:15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
The builder is saved, only the sinful impurities are consumed.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Thanks Julia, that does help!
Cheers :banana:
Jock
I offer two prophetical testimonies. Lamentations/ekah/HOW!during judgement and
chastisement Lamentations 3;p22 YET,this Icall t omind andtherefore I have hope....
BECAUSE OF THE LORD'S GREAT LOVE WE ARE NOT CONSUMED,FOR HIS COMPASSIONS
NEVER FAIL............for men are not cast offby the LORD,FOREVER
Malachi 3;6 againregarding the day of JUDGEMENT....I THE LORD DO NOT CHANGE,SO,
YOU DESCENDANTS OF JACOB,ARE NOT DESTROYED.....
CH 4 the Dayofthe Lord...itwill burn like a furnace...arrognce and evil doers[works of the devil]
will be stubble...not a root or branch left/trampled as ashes under our feet
Elijah comes..before thegreat day........to turn the hearts of the fathers to thechildren..andthe
hearts of thechildren to the fathers...[please note how the offspring ofvipers lay up heavy loads
impossible to be boreon men's shoulders/ and contrast that withJesus turningthe people's hearts
to their Father inheaven..saying, come,my yoke is light] ........this is the making of straight paths
for the feet of the children..as well as shwing as Elijah did..who was really GOD/FATHER....and
the false Baal [LORD]worship.[see Baalworshippers burn up God's children in fire....the
true God has no such thought come up in Hisheart..to consume His children infire/evenJesus
showed itis the tares that are gathered andburned..not the wheat...root/branch/seed
of arrogant andwicked works of devil are consumed.}
so,ifthe sons of men are not consumed..because of Hisgreat love...whatisconsumed?..itis just
this...the root and branch..of the arr0gant one[Prvrbs 21;4 Haughty eyes andaproud heart,
the lamp ofthe wicked are sin![Psalms 101;4-8]
SOS8;6,7 for LOVE isas strong asdeath,it'sjealousy unyeilding as the grave.
IT BURNS LIKE BLAZING FIRE,LIKE A MIGHTY FLAME.............
inthefurnace..in Daniel...that which was consumed..inthefire...was that which attempted
to consume [REV 11;5 Ifanyonetries to harm them,fire comesfrom their mouths and devours
theirenemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die]
thus...the sowing ofthe tares[sin]inthefeild..inthe night..by theenemy...that attempts
to cause the overgrown wheatfeild of tares to begiven up to burning of the entire
feild[wheat along with tares]
finds that..first the tares are seperated forburning...and the wheat gaathered....that the wheat
is not consumed of the fire.
so,man's sin[weed/tares] will NOT SUCEED IN CAUSING GOD TO CONSUME HIM IN FIRE...
BUT GOD HIMSELF WILL CONSUME IN FIRE MAN'S SIN...AND DELIVER UNTO HIMSELF MAN
FROM THIS EVIL/WICKEDNESS[pray..deliver us from the wicked/evil one]
woman/wickedness ina basket taken to the landofShinar..[lead lid on basket/dross]
....the smoke ofher burning ascends forever.
p.s. and anyssuffering of loss..that man may expierence..is but thedross
compare the burning of Babylontothe beauty of New Jerusalem..andsee that which was lostwas
dross/lead. alsothis.......Isaaih 10;22 then youwill defile youridols overlaidwith silver
and your imagescovered with gold,you will throwthem away like afilthy rag..andsay...
'AWAY WITH YOU!"
Quote from: Jock on September 24, 2013, 04:36:12 PM
WW, don't get it, can you elaborate?
Jock
God is a consuming fire.
Moses receives the fire law on Mt. Sinai.
On Pentecost the HS descended as a flame.
Imo the HS is the essence/character of the Father.
The lake of fire is lake filled with the law.
Etc.
My understanding: http://home.online.nl/spamfree/Lake/index.html
The things you guys are saying makes sense to me now. Whitewings, I'll go through your website in due course. I'm really thankful the Lord led me to Tentmaker, I am learning all the time!
Jock
Hi Jock
what they say are true , its somthing that helped me to know as well and not to fear the FIRE of Gods consuming law , its perfect and righteous in all ways , this chapter in itself conviced me totally when stumbling upon it , ZION/SION the HOLY CITY IS HOLY SPIRIT FILLED FIRE OF GODS LAW AND LOVE , His creatures are seraphims [fiery creatures whom serve Him and know His holiness
Please consider those whom use the fire to invoke fear in others a beast fears fire , but new creatures in Christ are the fire dwellers
I totally agree withWW , GODS Fiery law is His nature and purification process . done in Love and purity and makes clean and holy ones . you have come to Mt Zion / Sion , in the City company of innumerable angels [messengers ]
Isaiah 33
New Life Version (NLV)
A Prayer for Help
33 It is bad for you, O destroyer, you who were not destroyed yourself! You cannot be trusted, but others have trusted you. As soon as you finish destroying, you will be destroyed. As soon as you stop lying, others will lie to you.
2 O Lord, be kind to us. We have waited for You. Be our strength every morning. Save us in the time of trouble.
3 At the loud noise of battle, the people run. When You lift Yourself up, nations divide and run.
4 The things taken in war will be gathered as the caterpillar gathers. Men rush upon it like locusts.
5 The Lord is honored, for He lives on high. He has filled Zion with what is right and fair and good.
6 He will be for you what is sure and faithful for your times, with much saving power, wisdom and learning. The fear of the Lord is worth much.
7 See, their men with strength of heart cry in the streets. The men sent to bring peace cry many tears.
8 The roads are empty. The traveler does not travel. He has broken the agreement. He has hated the cities. He does not care for man.
9 The land is filled with sorrow and wastes away. Lebanon is put to shame and wastes away. Sharon is like a desert. And Bashan and Carmel shake off their leaves.
10 "Now I will rise up," says the Lord. "Now I will be honored. Now I will be lifted up.
11 You bring life to what is of no worth. You give birth to what is of no use. My breath will destroy you like a fire.
12 The people will be burned to white dust, like thorns cut down and burned in the fire.
13 "You who are far away, hear what I have done. And you who are near, speak of My power."
14 Sinners in Zion are filled with fear. The sinful shake with fear. They cry, "Who among us can live with the fire that destroys? Who among us can live with the fire that burns forever?"
15 He who walks with God, and whose words are good and honest, he who will not take money received from wrong-doing, and will not receive money given in secret for wrong-doing, he who stops his ears from hearing about killing, and shuts his eyes from looking at what is sinful,
16 he will have a place on high. His safe place will be a rock that cannot be taken over. He will be given food and will have water for sure.
17 Your eyes will see the King in His beauty. They will see a land that is far away.
18 Your heart will think about fear, asking, "Where is he who numbers? Where is he who weighs? Where is he who numbers the towers?" 1
9 You will not see people who show no pity, people whose language no one knows, whose strange tongue you cannot understand.
20 Look upon Zion, the city of our special suppers! Your eyes will see Jerusalem, a quiet resting place, a tent that will not be moved. Its tie-downs will never be pulled up, and none of its ropes will be broken.
21 But there the Lord in His great power will be for us. It will be a place of rivers and wide waterways, where no rowboats can go, and where no powerful ships can pass.
22 For the Lord is our judge. The Lord is our law-giver. The Lord is our king. He will save us.
23 Your ropes are loose. They cannot hold the sail up in its place or spread it out. Then the many riches taken in battle will be divided. Even those who cannot walk will take the riches.
24 And no one living there will say, "I am sick." The people who live there will be forgiven of their sin.
Thanks Rosered
:iagree:
Jock
PS. I used to work in a small tweed mill in Scotland and we sent the finished cloth to England whare it cleaned. But a guy I worked with told me that in the old days they would clean the cloth in another part of the mill. Apparently it smelled pretty bad but the soap used got down into the cloth deep. Then the impurities would bubble up to the top and the finished cloth was always softer and could be made into garments.
The man who performed this was called a "Fuller"
Yeah it smelled so bad the ancient fullers weren't allowed near the city.
The fuller's soap contained traces of brimstone. Fuller is an Anglo-Saxon name for 'to whiten' because the fuller made wool clean and white before garments were made out of it. The Hebrew word rendered as "fuller" means "to trample" or "to tread," suggesting that action as a major part of the craft. The fuller removed the oily and gummy substances from material before it could be used by washing it in some alkaline such as white clay, putrid urine, or nitre, as there was no soap in those days. The alkaline was washed out by treading on the material repeatedly in running or clean water. The trampling seems to indicate the cleaning process can be unpleasant.
The Revelation grape harvest is pressed/trampled.
Cool stuff there WW, many paralells. Thanks for sharing
Jock
Quote from: Jock on September 24, 2013, 02:51:36 PM
I've been thinking about that lake of fire and what sort of fire this is. It is written: Heb 12.23 for our God is a consuming fire. I was thinking and wondering about this fire which I believe many have mistaken to be hell.
Moses stood in front of a burning bush but that bush was not consumed: Ex 3:2 The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of [fn]a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed
The same could be said of Shadrack, Meshak and Abednago: Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the door of the furnace of blazing fire; he responded and said, "Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, come out, you servants of the Most High God, and come here!" Then Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego came out of the midst of the fire.
The Lord was in there with them and loosened their bonds but not a hair of their heads was singed. I think that this is a picture of the fire in the Lake? Their bonds could, in a spiritual sense, be the things that bound them in the flesh. That would make this fire a fire of purification and cleansing. A far cry from the eternal torture believed by the Greeks and certain early church fathers.
Does anyone have thoughts and/or wisdom to share in this matter?
Blessings to all :Peace2:
Jock.
"Hell" is obviously not "the lake of fire" because "hell" will be cast into "the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:14)
"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." (Revelation 20:10) These three all must be spirit beings not subject to death because immortality of the soul is a lie.
Those who die as unbelievers who stand before "the great white throne" and are condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire" will not be "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." They will be dead. They will not experience "eonian life" in Christ, but they will be vivified at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished.
Immortality of the soul is the philosophy of Plato, adopted as church doctrine, that originally came from the serpent's lie in the garden of Eden.
"And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying'" (Genesis 3:4)
The dead are reposing. As far as their consciousness is concerned, from the moment they die, the very next thing they will know is that they are alive again regardless of how long they have been dead. There is no consciousness in death.
"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
Good stuff Tom!
One question: If "hell" and death are cast into the Lake of fire and we don't believe that hell exists, how can there be a hell to cast into the Lake? Do they mean Hades?
Yes good stuff being shared , Thanks to all and you Jock for bringing it up !
I always wondered if and have also considered the Great white Throne judgment to be all the saints clean and white in those garments [ righteous acts of the saints ] to be the WHITE THRONE that God and Christ sits on , to sit on somthing also means to be able to ''hold and contain ''it
you shall judge angels /messengers telling/gathering in Christ / the truth or scattering with lies
it seems the fullers soap and that brimstone/sulphur smells ''like rotton eggs '' we have some ''pits'' around these parts that omit that smell that have been mined , but leaves a bluish green luster over the waters , I always associate the blue and green teaming with ''new life''
the dead seas are the many voices below , that shall be cast into the lake of fire for purification
Jesus come to bring FIRE on the earth , that was His purpose and baptism Luke 12; 49
I dont know every detail , nor claim to , but it sure is a lovely thing to ponder in times of distress , that God is in control and His plan is perfect , complete and entire and has no want for nothing .
Quote from: Jock on September 24, 2013, 08:55:22 PM
Good stuff Tom!
One question: If "hell" and death are cast into the Lake of fire and we don't believe that hell exists, how can there be a hell to cast into the Lake? Do they mean Hades?
The church has a history of torturing and killing people just for reading scripture, and the church still considers it heresy to believe scripture correctly translated rather than the doctrine of church tradition.
There is a common misconception about "hell," an Old English word translated from the Greek "hades" literally meaning "un-perceived," or "unseen," referring to the "unseen" state of a dead soul, but the meaning of "hell" has been distorted by intentional mistranslation of "Gehenna" as "hell" twelve times in the King James Version and the Douay-Rheims Catholic Version in the following verses: Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6. "Gehenna" actually refers to the ravine of Hinnom, southwest of Jerusalem, used by the ancient apostate Jews to sacrifice their children in fire to Moloch, an Ammonite god, and later used to burn the corpses of criminals condemned to death as it will be in the coming eon.
"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23,24)
The intentional mistranslation of "Gehenna" as "hell" is used to support the myth of "hell fire." The church failed to suppress scripture by killing people with fire, but the church changed scripture to terrorize people with torture in fire forever after they die.
Quote from: rosered on September 24, 2013, 09:19:52 PM
it seems the fullers soap and that brimstone/sulphur smells "like rotton eggs " we have some "pits" around these parts that omit that smell that have been mined , but leaves a bluish green luster over the waters , I always associate the blue and green teaming with "new life"
300 AD (?) a historian wrote about a sulpferious mist hanging over the Dead Sea. A writer around Jesus time wrote people in that area lived shorter because of the frequent sulfur smell from the Dead Sea.
That, btw, aligns quite nicely with Sodom and the 4 other cities who sold tar (to Egypt)
Quote from: rosered on September 24, 2013, 09:19:52 PM
the dead seas are the many voices below , that shall be cast into the lake of fire for purification
The seas represent nations in turmoil.
Hebrew uses lots of parallelism. A piece of wisdom expressed in different ways. I highlighted the part about the sea in red and the parallel part equaling the sea to humanity in yellow. Obviously there are also many verses where the word sea just means a literal sea, lake or other body of water like the Laver
Isa 17:12 Ah, the uproar of many peoples, who roar like the roaring of the seas, and the rushing of nations, that rush like the rushing of mighty waters!
Isa 23:11 He has stretched out his hand over the sea. He has shaken the kingdoms. LORD has given commandment concerning Canaan, to destroy the strongholds of it.
Isa 57:20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, for it cannot rest, and its waters cast up mire and dirt.
Isa 60:5 Then thou shall see and be radiant, and thy heart shall thrill and be enlarged, because the abundance of the sea shall be turned to thee. The wealth of the nations shall come to thee.
Jer 6:23 They shall lay hold on bow and spear; they are cruel, and have no mercy; their voice roars like the sea; ....
Jer 49:23 Of Damascus. Hamath is confounded, and Arpad, for they have heard evil news. They are melted away. There is sorrow on the sea; it cannot be quiet.
Ps 65:7 Which stills the noise of the seas, the noise of their waves, and the tumult of the people.
Ps 89:9 You rule the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, you still them. 10 You have broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; you have scattered your enemies with your strong arm.
Ezek 26:3 therefore thus says lord LORD: Behold, I am against thee, O Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causes its waves to come up.
Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavers is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Ezek 28:2 Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, Thus says lord LORD: Because thy heart is lifted up, and thou have said, I am a god. I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas. Yet thou are man, and not God, though thou did set thy heart of Elohim.
With that in mind read:
Mark 4:35 And the same day, when the even was come, he said to them, Let us pass over to the other side.
Mark 4:36 And when they had sent away the multitude, they took him even as he was in the ship. And there were also with him other little ships.
Mark 4:37 And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full.
Mark 4:38 And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say to him, Master, care you not that we perish?
Mark 4:39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.
Mark 4:40 And he said to them, Why are you so fearful? how is it that you have no faith?
Mark 4:41 And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the
wind and the sea obey him?
For me that passage gets an extra meaning when replacing sea with nations.
Quote from: Jock on September 24, 2013, 06:50:21 PM
The things you guys are saying makes sense to me now. Whitewings, I'll go through your website in due course. I'm really thankful the Lord led me to Tentmaker, I am learning all the time!
Jock
re: I am learning all the time! Me, too :girlheart:
Thanks everyone- I thoroughly enjoyed reading the many different writing styles that blend together so many thought-provoking, Scripturally sound, challenging, edifying, encouraging posts. I've been so focused on my study re: Deuteronomy recap of Law/Revelation recap of grace and truth
(John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ) that I didn't take time to read the Consuming Fire thread until now -- again many thanks to all for helping me to learn spiritual truths. Irene
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 24, 2013, 09:42:47 PM
Quote from: rosered on September 24, 2013, 09:19:52 PM
it seems the fullers soap and that brimstone/sulphur smells "like rotton eggs " we have some "pits" around these parts that omit that smell that have been mined , but leaves a bluish green luster over the waters , I always associate the blue and green teaming with "new life"
300 AD (?) a historian wrote about a sulpferious mist hanging over the Dead Sea. A writer around Jesus time wrote people in that area lived shorter because of the frequent sulfur smell from the Dead Sea.
That, btw, aligns quite nicely with Sodom and the 4 other cities who sold tar (to Egypt)
:thumbsup: I did not know that ! Thanks WW.
QuoteQuote from: rosered on Today at 09:19:52 PM
the dead seas are the many voices below , that shall be cast into the lake of fire for purification The seas represent nations in turmoil.
Hebrew uses lots of parallelism. A piece of wisdom expressed in different ways. I highlighted the part about the sea in red and the parallel part equaling the sea to humanity in yellow. Obviously there are also many verses where the word sea just means a literal sea, lake or other body of water like the Laver
Isa 17:12 Ah, the uproar of many peoples, who roar like the roaring of the seas, and the rushing of nations, that rush like the rushing of mighty waters!
Isa 23:11 He has stretched out his hand over the sea. He has shaken the kingdoms. LORD has given commandment concerning Canaan, to destroy the strongholds of it.
Isa 57:20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, for it cannot rest, and its waters cast up mire and dirt.
Isa 60:5 Then thou shall see and be radiant, and thy heart shall thrill and be enlarged, because the abundance of the sea shall be turned to thee. The wealth of the nations shall come to thee.
Jer 6:23 They shall lay hold on bow and spear; they are cruel, and have no mercy; their voice roars like the sea; ....
Jer 49:23 Of Damascus. Hamath is confounded, and Arpad, for they have heard evil news. They are melted away. There is sorrow on the sea; it cannot be quiet.
Ps 65:7 Which stills the noise of the seas, the noise of their waves, and the tumult of the people.
Ps 89:9 You rule the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, you still them. 10 You have broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; you have scattered your enemies with your strong arm.
Ezek 26:3 therefore thus says lord LORD: Behold, I am against thee, O Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causes its waves to come up.
Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavers is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Ezek 28:2 Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, Thus says lord LORD: Because thy heart is lifted up, and thou have said, I am a god. I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas. Yet thou are man, and not God, though thou did set thy heart of Elohim.
With that in mind read:
Mark 4:35 And the same day, when the even was come, he said to them, Let us pass over to the other side.
Mark 4:36 And when they had sent away the multitude, they took him even as he was in the ship. And there were also with him other little ships.
Mark 4:37 And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full.
Mark 4:38 And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say to him, Master, care you not that we perish?
Mark 4:39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.
Mark 4:40 And he said to them, Why are you so fearful? how is it that you have no faith?
Mark 4:41 And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?
For me that passage gets an extra meaning when replacing sea with nations.
Good stuff again Bro T !! aka WW
Quote from: irenic-inkwell on September 24, 2013, 10:12:41 PM
Quote from: Jock on September 24, 2013, 06:50:21 PM
The things you guys are saying makes sense to me now. Whitewings, I'll go through your website in due course. I'm really thankful the Lord led me to Tentmaker, I am learning all the time!
Jock
re: I am learning all the time! Me, too :girlheart:
Thanks everyone- I thoroughly enjoyed reading the many different writing styles that blend together so many thought-provoking, Scripturally sound, challenging, edifying, encouraging posts. I've been so focused on my study re: Deuteronomy recap of Law/Revelation recap of grace and truth (John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ) that I didn't take time to read the Consuming Fire thread until now -- again many thanks to all for helping me to learn spiritual truths. Irene
Me too sis! I love chapters Deut 28 -32 its all of the Lord ! the song of moses Deut31, 32 gave lots to think upon and again the song of moses mentioned in Rev
Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
All the Law is fulfilled in Christ Jesus !
Thanks Rosie: much to add to my study of Dt and Rev... and so I continue learning :)
re: All the Law is fulfilled in Christ Jesus
seems to me to be a summary of the scriptures shared by jbertononbounds on the thread re: Jesus the narrow way? thanks jbb so much for all those scriptures and your final line
"The law made NOTHING perfect. Hope is through Jesus, through whom, like a narrow gate, we draw near to God." reinforces my current meditation on Hope and Jesus being the only way... and, of course, brings to mind the beautiful song/hymn MY HOPE IS BUILT...
Scripture states that death and hades/hell are cast into the Lake of Fire. How can hell be cast into the Lake if it doesn't exist?
Jock
The lake, death and hades all exist.
The real question is what exactly are those things?
Is hades the grave, hell, a greek god, Hebrew angel of death?
Is death just that death or is the it the greek god hades or the hebrew angel of death?
Is the lake ET hell like, is it the Temple laver, something else?
Well, I'm clear on the LOF and I'm clear on death. Death is the absence of life, the dead know nothing. I know that Hades is a Greek God of the nether world. I am left with the question. Is Hades really, Sheol?
Hades is both the name of the Greek god and his empire. The underworld.
Death is indeed the absence of life but also the Abaddon angel of death. (The destroyer)
I would even say Hades is the Greek version of Abaddon. Even exactly the very same 'person'.
2 cherubim angels rebelled against God. The one we usually call satan and Abaddon. Both are defeated by God.
So it seems that all the Greek pagan mythology was just used to explain a Hebrew concept.
So yeah hades is sheol.
Another bit of proof is Gen 37:35
Look at a Hebrew text and you see grave is translated from sheol.
Then take a LXX, a Greek translation by ancient Jews who lived before Jesus.
You see the word Hades.
So even if Hades currently means something else the Jewish scholars had the opinion hades=sheol.
Please note that NOT every word translated as grave in the OT is from the Hebrew sheol.
I hope that answers your question (at least partly).
That's cool WW. Thanks for clearing that up.
Jock..
Zender on the second death:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUWu_kd5GRs
WW. If Sheol is not always the grave in the OT, then what else is it?
Thanks for bearing with me :Chinscratch:
Jock
Quote from: Jock on September 25, 2013, 01:40:21 PM
WW. If Sheol is not always the grave in the OT, then what else is it?
Thanks for bearing with me :Chinscratch:
Jock
The Hebrew "Sheol" corresponds to the Greek "hades," literally "unseen," the state of dead souls.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Thanks Tom. :gimmefive:
Jock
Quote from: Jock on September 25, 2013, 01:40:21 PM
WW. If Sheol is not always the grave in the OT, then what else is it?
Thanks for bearing with me :Chinscratch:
Jock
The other way arround Jock.
Gen 35:20 And Jacob set a pillar on her grave: that is the pillar of Rachel's grave to this day.
Grave=
/ קבוּרה
qebûrâh /
BDB Definition:
1) grave, burial, burial site
1a) grave
1b) burial
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: passive participle of H6912
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1984b
Gen 37:35 And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave to my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.
Grave=
/ שׁאול
she'ôlBDB Definition:
1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
1a) the underworld
1b) Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
1b1) place of no return
1b2) without praise of God
1b3) wicked sent there for punishment
1b4) righteous not abandoned to it
1b5) of the place of exile (figuratively)
1b6) of extreme degradation in sin
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H7592
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2303c
And of course quite often sheol is translated as hell
Prov 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
So, when a person dies, they sleep, yeah?
I really don't know Jock.
Reading the OT all is clear. Sleep.
But I can imagine/accept Jesus changed all that. (dreams of people on this forum confirm that)
Still the NT speaks about dying and resurrections.
:Chinscratch: :dontknow: :dunno2:
Quote from: Jock on September 25, 2013, 04:17:19 PM
So, when a person dies, they sleep, yeah?
Nothing is dead to Father. "Where art thou victory now, death"
I have forgotten the vs.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Jock on September 25, 2013, 04:17:19 PM
So, when a person dies, they sleep, yeah?
Death is like sleep. The dead are reposing. As far as their consciousness is concerned, from the moment they die, the very next thing they will know is that they are alive again regardless of how long they have been dead. There is no consciousness in death.
"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
"11 He said these things, and after this He is saying to them, "Lazarus, our friend, has found repose, but I am going that I should be awakening him out of sleep."
12 The disciples, then, said to Him, "Lord, if he has repose, he shall be saved."
13 Now Jesus had made a declaration concerning his death, yet they suppose that He is saying it concerning the repose of sleep.
14 Jesus, then, said to them with boldness then, "Lazarus died."" (John 11:11-14)
"13 Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation.
14 For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him.
15 For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose,
16 for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first.
17 Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord.
18 So that, console one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
Cool, Tom
The dead have no sense of time either.
thanks to all who have contributed.
Jock :banana:
Quote from: Jock on September 25, 2013, 04:17:19 PM
So, when a person dies, they sleep, yeah?
Hi Jock , For me ,this is where everyone has a differnt ''faith'' belief , even in UR it varies
the 99 cent question of the hour
and its good you dig deeper !!
for me in Adam all die , and its even deeper in the sense , I believe we are sleeping in Adam , but in Christ we are alive
and the big thing is when does this happen ?
what are the clear cut changes when one is changed from death to life
for me , and just my opinion , when the ones sleep in Jesus , its the REST , that the Lord God speaks of , and the rest is from your labours
and this is when JESUS IS ALIVE AND WELL and now doing the works , the labour of Love
many holy ones fell asleep in Jesus , Daniel is a big clue in Daniel 12
and Stephen , are they dead ? physically , yes in Adam all die , but they are ALIVE IN CHRIST to me
Jesus is the reward for obedience to the will of God to me right now
Him being the ressurection and the LIFE
being IN the body of Christ , is more than just a idea or concept , its the SPIRIT OF LIFE and the moving and being that is ALIVE to the Father right now only ...
Paul said it best when he said , in the body or out of the body I do not know , but one man 14 years ago experienced the change in the twinkling of an eye and what was that ?
was He is the Body of Christ ALIVE or out of the physical body of death ? 2 Cor 12
he was taken to the 3rd heaven / in the presence of God and shown a mystery , that words were heard that was unlawful/ not in human terms to speak about , what is considered unlawful ?
its to me , the work of the Holy Spirit / being the Father and Son , doing the living works that no man can do !
so to me we are spiritually dead , till the Lord come to rouse us up into a spiritual life by the seed / Word of God and His Holy Spirit
I was dead and now I am alive , was it me who got to live by my own choice ?
I say No , its all to the GLORY OF GOD !! I am thankful to the Lord God almighty , for Life and death
I had to die in the sense of life had no meaning/vanity , till the Lord come to show me LIFE IN HIM is where all will come to eventually , this is my hope in CHRIST to the glory of the Father
there is no glory in man , but being found in Christ /hid in HIM , His body is the true Church / Woman whom helps Him pro create new creatures in Christ , for me any how
Mary was a chaste virgin , Paul was cleansing the minds of those being prepared for the presence of the Holy Spirit to concieve , Father and Son , the Word of Truth/seed and Spirit of ALL LIFE to dwell in , for me this happens often and a now[present ] thing .
we are awakened out of sleep in Adam ,to be made alive unto Christ / the annointing .
Just some things to consider and search them out for yourself , many of these things are settled in me now grounded and not easily shaken , but were not for many years
The problem is the church teaches folks don't really die because they simply pass from this life to the next in which they're either strumming harps in heaven or being tortured alive in hell fire forever.
Immortality of the soul is the philosophy of Plato, adopted as church doctrine, that originally came from the serpent's lie in the garden of Eden.
"And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying'" (Genesis 3:4)
Unless death is understood in its proper context, there was no resurrection, and Christ did not die to be roused from the dead by the Father. That is the basis for our faith.
Here's what Julie was talking about.
"I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." (Matthew 22:32)
"32 Our Lord is proving the necessity of resurrection. Abraham and Isaac and Jacob are dead. God is the God of the dead, if they will not be raised. But He is not the God of the dead. The dead praise not the Lord (Ps.115:17). They know not anything (Ecc.9:5). In death there is no remembrance of Him (Ps.6:5). Apart from resurrection His saints are lost, our faith is vain, we are still in our sins (1Co.15:16-19). The dead have no God. He is the God of the living. There must be a resurrection-which was to be proved (Ex.3:6)." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 43)
Rose
Thank you for your wonderful contribution, I had the flag go up as I read. I have soooo much to ponder as everyone has written in!
Everyone has brought a portion of Bread (the body of Christ) to share
Have a great day, in Christ.
Jock. :dsunny:
Tom
Amen" good stuff :iagree:
LOL
Thanks Jock , I just hope the flag that went up was not a ''red one '' ha ha
I also enjoyed and agree with Toms above post!! good find the Living DO praise God ! for they KNOW salvation and grace is of the Lord Our God !
and this verse helped me 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
I know its the HOLY SPIRIT OF LIFE , God is Spirit & truth , Love , a consuming fire etc ..as they describe His nature
The short answer to you question Jock is that hell and death are thrown into the LOF. IMO hell is referring to sheol and hades which describe the state of the body in the grave. So the work of death and the state of death are consumed.
As to the LOF itself. The dead sea is the natural manifestation of the LOF and the people of the day would have understood its reference when first spoken. The Revelations LOF is metaphorical as it says in verse one of revelations that the entire book signifies or is symbolic. It is a spiritual purging. It will be just as real, but the description is symbolic for our comprehension of a sorts.
Here's a great article on the history of the literal LOF.
http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article10_lake_of_fire_pt2.html
:banana: :banana: :banana:
A song I used to hear describes the fire very well.
Move a little closer where the fire's burning
Move a little closer where God makes His Man
Fear not the burning but yield unto it
Only the fire can purify within
Watchman
I am reading through that paper, whew, its long and I'm a slow reader, but I like it so far
Jock.
Bushy, that's cool, thanks for sending it.
:Peace2:
Jock
hi! I believe "Our God is a consuming fire" consuming away all dross, all false.. He is Life and He is Perfection. (Im-perfection is the opposite of life.)
I believe the LOF is (the) second death which death is (again) nonlife.
And that's why "death and the grave are thrown into the LOF" ...nevermore.. nevermore.. gone.. not alive.. not existing / gone.
And is why "the beast" (big one/world beast/world body - rev 13:1-10, not 11-18) and the "false prophet"/teaching/theory (and the prophecy, the teaching/theory implies) which are thrown into the LOF at Christ's return are active institutions of man, not living persons or creatures, and they will be "gone" from the planet and universe.
:hiya:
But! I believe "all will be saved"!
That the 3 Autumn Holy Days prophecy the 3 major peaks of the long second advent of Jesus
Trumpets - Atonement (Day/Age of age-lasting wailing and kolasis) - Tabernacles when "all things are made new" and "death and the grave are thrown into the LOF" and "God now Tabernacles with man upon Earth"
:smile:
note: "will be tormented aion and aion" is only said in Rev 20:10 which occurs before the Great White Throne Judgment.. and is said of the big (/world?) beast/body? and the false prophet(/teaching) and the devil who decieved..
Quote from: Jock on September 26, 2013, 07:03:36 PM
Watchman
I am reading through that paper, whew, its long and I'm a slow reader, but I like it so far
Jock.
Yes it is Jock, but there is alot of ground to cover. The evidence on the literal lake itself is fascinating. Some of it had been lost to christianity for over 150 years. It's only part 2 of a 4 part series. All of it very good. I highly recommend part 1 on the symbolism of Revelations to anyone who wants to learn to interpret Revelations correctly.
:banana: :banana: :banana:
QUOTE:
I'm reading it too.. so far very good!!! :2c:
Quote from: sheila on September 24, 2013, 06:26:47 PM
to their Father inheaven..saying, come,my yoke is light] ........this is the making of straight paths
That doesn't count Sheila. He was selling stuff then :winkgrin:
CHAPTER LXXXVIII -- CHRIST HAS NOT RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT ON ACCOUNT OF POVERTY.
"Now, it is possible to see amongst us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God; so that it was prophesied that the powers enumerated by Isaiah would come upon Him, not because He needed power, but because these would not continue after Him. And let this be a proof to you, namely, what I told you was done by the Magi from Arabia, who as soon as the Child was born came to worship Him, for even at His birth He was in possession of His power; and as He grew up like all other men, by using the fitting means, He assigned its own [requirements] to each development, and was sustained by all kinds of nourishment, and waited for thirty years, more or less, until John appeared before Him as the herald of His approach, and preceded Him in the way of baptism, as I have already shown. And then, when Jesus had gone to the river Jordan, where John was baptizing, and when He had stepped into the water, a fire was kindled in the Jordan; and when He came out of the water, the Holy Ghost lighted on Him like a dove, the apostles of this very Christ of ours wrote. Now, we know that he did not go to the river because He stood in need of baptism, or of the descent of the Spirit like a dove; even as He submitted to be born and to be crucified, not because He needed such things, but because of the human race, which from Adam had fallen under the power of death and the guile of the serpent, and each one of which had committed personal transgression. For God, wishing both angels and men, who were endowed with freewill, and at their own disposal, to do whatever He had strengthened each to do, made them so, that if they chose the things acceptable to Himself, He would keep them free from death and from punishment; but that if they did evil, He would punish each as He sees fit. For it was not His entrance into Jerusalem sitting on an ass, which we have showed was prophesied, that empowered Him to be Christ, but it furnished men with a proof that He is the Christ; just as it was necessary in the time of John that men have proof, that they might know who is Christ. For when John remained by the Jordan, and preached the baptism of repentance, wearing only a leathern girdle and a vesture made of camels' hair, eating nothing but locusts and wild honey, men supposed him to be Christ; but he cried to them, 'I am not the Christ, but the voice of one crying; for He that is stronger than I shall come, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear.' And when Jesus came to the Jordan, He was considered to be the son of Joseph the carpenter; and He appeared without comeliness, as the Scriptures declared; and He was deemed a carpenter (for He was in the habit of working as a carpenter when among men, making ploughs and
yokes; by which He taught the symbols of righteousness and an active life); but then the Holy Ghost, and for man's sake, as I formerly stated, lighted on Him in the form of a dove, and there came at the same instant from the heavens a voice, which was uttered also by David when he spoke, personating Christ, what the Father would say to Him: 'Thou art My Son: this day have I begotten Thee;' [the Father] saying that His generation would take place for men, at the time when they would become acquainted with Him: 'Thou art My Son; this day have I begotten thee.' "
http://earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html