Are there 2 judgements? One for believers and one for non believers?
You would find many different opinions on this Chester. In principle I think most agree that there is one judgment, and it is the person of Jesus Christ, which separates the wheat from the chaff in all of us- everyone who ever lived.
How that works in time and the ages is more disputed.
My personal opinion is that when Jesus returns at the end of this age the overcomers(only God knows who the overcomers are- they remain faithful to the confession of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and walk with Him until death) are raised to meet Him and reign with Him through the "period of the restoration of all things".
Then at the end of the coming age there will be a resurrection of all the remaining dead from all the ages and they will be judged by Jesus Christ, as per Matthew 25 and Romans ch 2 and Revelations 20.
Some people I respect would disagree with me on those particulars, but to me that doesnt matter so much. The key thing is that all are judged by who Jesus is and what He did and what He said, and in the end every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father, all will be gathered into one in Christ Jesus, and God will be all in all after the last adversary is subjected.
That subjection comes through grace for some, through judgment for others- but in the final outworking it is all mercy...
Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
Matthew 25:31-46Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
31 `And whenever the Son of Man may come in his glory, and all the holy messengers with him, then he shall sit upon a throne of his glory;
32 and gathered together before him shall be all the nations, and he shall separate them from one another, as the shepherd doth separate the sheep from the goats,
33 and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand, and the goats on the left.
34 `Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
35 for I did hunger, and ye gave me to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and ye received me;
36 naked, and ye put around me; I was infirm, and ye looked after me; in prison I was, and ye came unto me.
37 `Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished? or thirsting, and we gave to drink?
38 and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received? or naked, and we put around?
39 and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee?
40 `And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did [it].
41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
42 for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink;
43 a stranger I was, and ye did not receive me; naked, and ye put not around me; infirm, and in prison, and ye did not look after me.
44 `Then shall they answer, they also, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in prison, and we did not minister to thee?
45 `Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of these, the least, ye did [it] not to me.
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
Okay, so can some of you help me out with how this Bible passage fits into this story?
If this is considered 'hijacking' (which I was never quite sure where the boundaries were for that) I ask that the monitors of this site let me know so I can delete it.
My best guess is this is, perhaps, when the Lake of Fire comes into play, for those who need further assistance to prepare for Heaven. But, I don't know how age-during is interpreted. It would definitely seem like we are all together, and then we get separated, for a while, while some are transitioned differently.
I should start making a UR dictionary for myself. That would be a great project, and perhaps a great help for those inquiring about UR and wanting to understand more. Did anyone make a dictionary for these terms, yet?
Thank you, all.
D.
This pertains to the thread so it is not hijacking. There are a number of verses like this in Daniel, Revelation, the gospels and Paul's writings. My best suggestion to people who get an interest in eschatology is to read them all and over time a picture will emerge.
He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."
I personally dont think God has given a clear picture of the future ages for making specific timelines. There are general principles and conclusions for each one to be convinced in their own heart.
As for the lake of fire, I think it is symbolic for being judged in the great assembly of angels and holy ones of God in the presence of the Lamb, where each adversary will stand before His face to give account until the knee bows and the tongue confesses and mercy is conferred, and I think it is in principle the same judgment everyone goes through before coming to Christ, whether in life or in death.
"For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Heb 4:12-16
Thank you, EW. That was helpful.
And, I'm glad I didn't hijack anyone's thread. :gsigh:
D.
Thanks eaglesway and Dandelion you are well come to hijack my threads, you've all helped me so much and I hope will continue too.
That's the nicest thing I've heard all day, Chester.
Thank you!
D. :curtsey:
Quote from: Dandelion on February 25, 2017, 01:55:02 PM
Matthew 25:31-46Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
31 `And whenever the Son of Man may come in his glory, and all the holy messengers with him, then he shall sit upon a throne of his glory;
32 and gathered together before him shall be all the nations, and he shall separate them from one another, as the shepherd doth separate the sheep from the goats,....
....41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
Quote from: eaglesway on February 25, 2017, 08:22:56 PM
There are a number of verses like this in Daniel, Revelation, the gospels and Paul's writings...
I don't know, of course, if accurate or not, but I think of the judgment at His return, when the sheep and goats (or sheep and goat nations?) are before Him (metaphorically?) as being the one upon earth, or more specifically, upon the kingdoms of the world.. and when I read and think about it, there's two gatherings at His return - Rev 16:14-16? - the one to meet Him at His coming, and the one of the nations to Armageddon, which I believe will end up as a fiery conflagration and final collapse..
Revelation 16:14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. (goats/tares?)
15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." (sheep/wheat?)
16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon. (goats/tares?)
The fiery judgment of Armageddon, I believe to be the natural (more or less) results and consequences of man's own doings (namely in this instance the split atom and all further advances of it)
I think one of the challenges of the Bible is how the advents of Jesus are sometimes prophesied in one breath as though they are one.. and I think this is sometimes true of the judgments, and also of the resurrections or that is of the resurrection of believers and the final vivifying when our heavenly Father and our Lord Jesus become "all in all".. ( :dunno: ) A thousand years between the two vivifications, but (about) two thousand between the two advents..
When Jesus said to pray for enemies and coals of fire will be rained on their head.. is it actual coals, in that instance? or is it repentance? for the very next verse, Jesus says to overcome evil with good, so obviously this coals on their head isn't telling us to pray for the fiery demise of anyone :laughing7: but seems to me to be saying if we pray for someone mistreating us, the prayer results in spiritual working out.. which as we know, the goal is - repentance, and our prayer will help that along its way, and they will be convicted of their wrongdoing (toward us, etc)
When we think of judgment, I think the image which most quickly comes to mind is the one of Sodom and Gomorrah, where coals of sulfur and brimstone fell.. A living parable? (from Jude 7 - as Sodom and Gomorrah.. are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of aiōnios fire." (translated as eternal fire, but where are the flames now?)
Coals of fire being both literal - national and collective in this drama of life (imperfect life) and also metaphor, in that we are all "salted with fire" - whether now during this life, or later in His Great Plan of Salvation..
Quote from: eaglesway on February 25, 2017, 08:22:56 PM
As for the lake of fire, I think it is symbolic for being judged in the great assembly of angels and holy ones of God in the presence of the Lamb, where each adversary will stand before His face to give account until the knee bows and the tongue confesses and mercy is conferred, and I think it is in principle the same judgment everyone goes through before coming to Christ, whether in life or in death.
"For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Heb 4:12-16
:thumbsup: :iagree: