2Ti 3:13 But evil men and impostors shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.
Who is Paul directing his words to?
And here also
2Ti 4:3 for there shall be a season when the sound teaching they will not suffer, but according to their own desires to themselves they shall heap up teachers--itching in the hearing,
2Ti 4:4 and indeed, from the truth the hearing they shall turn away, and to the fables they shall be turned aside.
Now this :wink3: is where I personally believe there is writing and warnings about these times - seems to have perhaps started in Paul's times, and beginning unto now ["waxing worse and worse"]?
As you talked in that other post about the current state of religion, with its institutionalization, denominational requirements, etc. Starting in Paul's time, all the way through the Dark Ages (Roman "church") with the "hijacking" of Christianity - that was apparently a real mess - with its results still prevalent today in almost all "churches". :2c:
I like how Gary Amirault has described this current age as being a mixture of truth and error, as its doctrines/beliefs are a jumble of Law and grace.
Some believe we've "turned the corner", the great falling away has already occured, and things are just going to get better from here. It might be interesting to see their take on this.
It started way before Paul, Jesus knew it had been going on for a while. Paul is talking to the "church" in Timothy. I reason
that it was not possible that he was talking to people outside of the church, there was no reason to. With an honest eye just look at the "church" today, the lucre and the divisions, alone should make one ashamed.
Mat_7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat_24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat_23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mat_23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat_23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat_23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat_23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat_23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat_23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat_24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Yes, I agree, in your original posted scrips from 2 Tim. it was to the "church". :thumbsup: I can see where my saying "seems to have started in Paul's times" would not be clear. :mblush: But I was just talking about the "church age" [the age of the nations - us, Gentiles] that Paul was apparently addressing - post-cross in the 2 Timothy scrips.
I agree, Jesus was also talking about "religious problems" before that, to the Jewish nation, the scribes and pharisees that were in control of the temple worship. He identified in vs. 27 who He was talking to there; "woe to you, scribes and Pharisees".. They also had major problems. They crucified the Savior.
I guess falling away is man's nature, without God's intervention. Seems there's been falling away of some sort or another since the book of Genesis. If there was only 2 people on earth, 1 of them would probably be "falling away". :mshock: Paul seemed to be saying it would continue throughout the "church age", getting worse and worse. Seems to me Christianity as whole is not in too good of shape today.
edits made to above post.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 07, 2011, 01:36:30 AM
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and impostors shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.
Who is Paul directing his words to?
And here also
2Ti 4:3 for there shall be a season when the sound teaching they will not suffer, but according to their own desires to themselves they shall heap up teachers--itching in the hearing,
2Ti 4:4 and indeed, from the truth the hearing they shall turn away, and to the fables they shall be turned aside.
At some point (so as not to derail) once your original question has been satisfactorily answered, what do you think we'll see in this age according to Paul's words, micah? Same as now? Better, worse?
As long as the Christian religion [and others] continues to use the Bible as a book of history, a book of literal understanding, and understood and discerned by the logic and common sense of man, I reason this verse is very much as a truth today as it was with Paul and Jesus.
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and impostors shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.
The way I reason Paul was talking most of the time to the church; and when Jesus spoke of the problems that existed He was speaking to the religious leaders, they were the ones with the desire to control for their own greed. Is that any different today?
Seems relevant today to me.
I think about this. It seems to me there's also a wide-spread blindness. Even most "good-hearted" believers I know - who love the Lord the very best they know how - still are caught up in the web of orthodoxy with its high level of error.
I was talking to a dear Christian brother that I've known somewhat casually for years, having the occasion to tell him about some of the changes God has made in my life; that I don't care for institutionalized religion, etc. He was talking about going to "church" or not, and he said, "so you think what we did here today is enough" (as far as fellowship)"? I said yes, if we're truly BEING the church, ministering to each other, etc. as we need to be.
He said, "but Christ died for the church". I said yes, the people - not a building. It's just an example. I can't judge this fellow, because I still have my own blindnesses and I was pretty much right there with him in that mainstream religion for a LONG time.
So the blindness, how God allows it and uses it, is sometimes a little puzzling for me. You can flip channels and see the religious hucksters and religious confusion. But those aren't all "evil" people out there, so it's a little mind numbing sometimes..
"So the blindness, how God allows it and uses it, is sometimes a little puzzling for me. You can flip channels and see the religious hucksters and religious confusion. But those aren't all "evil" people out there, so it's a little mind numbing sometimes.."
No, but it is a great multitude that follow such. I know the blindness you speak of is from the Lord and for His purpose.
We need to understand that Jesus spoke in parables, and even the disciples did not understand what Jesus said until they were converted. Jesus came preaching the Kingdom of God/Heaven, just what was that?
Mat 15:14 let them alone, guides they are--blind of blind; and if blind may guide blind, both into a ditch shall fall.'
Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, `For judgment I to this world did come, that those not seeing may see, and those seeing may become blind.'
Joh 9:40 And those of the Pharisees who were with him heard these things, and they said to him, `Are we also blind?'
Joh 9:41 Jesus said to them, `If ye were blind, ye were not having had sin, but now ye say--We see, therefore doth your sin remain.
Quote from: jabcat on September 07, 2011, 02:16:52 AM
Some believe we've "turned the corner", the great falling away has already occured, and things are just going to get better from here. It might be interesting to see their take on this.
Compared to what?
Today about 1/6th of the world population is Christian.
Take for example the times of Moses. Some Jews and the rest of the world had a pagan religion. Jews were much less that 1/6th of the world population.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 07, 2011, 08:30:18 AM
Quote from: jabcat on September 07, 2011, 02:16:52 AM
Some believe we've "turned the corner", the great falling away has already occured, and things are just going to get better from here. It might be interesting to see their take on this.
Compared to what?
Today about 1/6th of the world population is Christian.
Take for example the times of Moses. Some Jews and the rest of the world had a pagan religion. Jews were much less that 1/6th of the world population.
I agree, compared to what?
They ain't sayin'. :laughing7:
:laughing7: :happy3: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on September 08, 2011, 02:02:02 AM
They ain't sayin'. :laughing7:
2 Thes 2:1-3 is about falling away from the faith in Jesus.
Trends rarely move in a straight line. Even strong upward trends usually retrace a bit. So there is always a falling away if you are looking for one.
Should we look at percentages of absolute numbers?
Maybe interesting is that "falling away" comes from the Greek word for divorce. ==> Jesus + bride
Yes you are right divorce from adultery, that is exactly the point, a falling away is adultery and probably divorce.
WW you seem to be an extremely intelligent person and I hope a friend, I admire how you dig, search and inform about the many things some would not even look for. And you have said you are an atheist, well I would like to meet more atheists of your cut. Any way want I want to say I say in love nothing more. Sometimes common sense and logic mixed with intelligence can be more harm than good when the Lord is at work. I leave you with these two verses and I hope you receive them with a good heart. :bigGrin:
1Co 3:19 for the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God, for it hath been written, `Who is taking the wise in their craftiness;'
Isa 55:8 For not My thoughts are your thoughts, Nor your ways My ways, --an affirmation of Jehovah,
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 08, 2011, 10:14:37 AM
Yes you are right divorce from adultery, that is exactly the point, a falling away is adultery and probably divorce.
Depends a bit on your defenition of adultary. If it includes "moving away from Jesus" then I agree. If it's just the regular meaning (sex) then I disagree. For me falling away is moving away from Christianity. Becoming atheist or muslim. Perhaps even just a little less faith.
But divorce also tells me it's not just about Christians. There is a difference between being friends with someone or being married to someone.
I think not all Christians are married with Jesus. Some marry and some are just good friends that are invited to the wedding feast.
:dontknow:
A great falling away happend between 30-70AD. 40's-50's I think. According to historical writings many Jews and Romans converted to Christianity when Jesus was resurrected. The Jews thought the finally "found" their Messiah. But when Jesus' didn't literally crush their enemies as the Messiah should do (in their view) they fell away because they simply no longer believed Jesus was the Messiah.
That was the first falling away. Fits right with the view of Revelation being completed 70AD
Quote1Co 3:19 for the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God, for it hath been written, `Who is taking the wise in their craftiness;'
Is Bible study with a carnal mind the wisdom of the world? Or is it for example building the tower of Babel and assuming that makes you god?
QuoteIsa 55:8 For not My thoughts are your thoughts, Nor your ways My ways, --an affirmation of Jehovah,
But His ways are in the Bible. Jesus was teaching the OT/thoughts. So imo that means in no way that verse means thinking/studying/reasoning is a bad thing.
The Bereans tested/discussed the Scriptures daily. That was good. But still it was human reasoning.
I think those verses are mainly about ungodly things.
:dontknow:
"If it includes "moving away from Jesus" then I agree."
Amen!
"A great falling away happend between 30-70AD. 40's-50's I think." WW
We aint talkn then, we talkin NOW.
"Is Bible study with a carnal mind the wisdom of the world? Or is it for example building the tower of Babel and assuming that makes you god?" WW
I had a carnal mind and I read the Bible. Now I'm told that the Word of God is food, I felt much better each time I read(ate) the Bible I felt better and I became more at ease. No, the tower of Babel is the church, orthodox religion, all the sects and denominations that keep not the "unity of the Spirit." Eph 4:3 being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace;
"But His ways are in the Bible. Jesus was teaching the OT/thoughts. So imo that means in no way that verse means thinking/studying/reasoning is a bad thing."
Yes His ways are in the Bible, through out, but unless He opens your mind to the understanding of the spirit, it is just a thinking/studying/ and human reasoning.
No, it is not a bad thing, it just may take the Father a little longer to reach you [probably His plan anyway] so you will begin to listen.
"But still it was human reasoning." WW
Yes, and it is that very reasoning that will not allow you see.
Human reasoning is the carnal mind.......and that is enmity to God.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 08, 2011, 11:39:36 AM
"If it includes "moving away from Jesus" then I agree."
Amen!
"A great falling away happend between 30-70AD. 40's-50's I think." WW
We aint talkn then, we talkin NOW.
That's your view. Not saying you are wrong. It's just that it can "prove" the falling away was any date you desire. Give me your birth date and I'll dig up some view it started at that date :winkgrin:
QuoteYes His ways are in the Bible, through out, but unless He opens your mind to the understanding of the spirit, it is just a thinking/studying/ and human reasoning.
No, it is not a bad thing, it just may take the Father a little longer to reach you [probably His plan anyway] so you will begin to listen.
"But still it was human reasoning." WW
Yes, and it is that very reasoning that will not allow you see.
Human reasoning is the carnal mind.......and that is enmity to God.
In that case owning a Bible is an act or rebelion against God.
Reading the Bible is blaphemy and ultimate rejection of God. Atheists are the true people of God. They use no carnal reasoning about God. They just live their lives and patiently waits for God showing the way.
You can't have it both ways Micah.
Wait a sec WW. Atheists are the true Christians? Maybe this would be easier to swallow if you shared your take on what an atheist is?
They use no carnal reasoning about God. They just live their lives and patiently waits for God showing the way.
This one just baffles me to no end. Most of what you do is the very opposite on these boards. You use no carnal reasoning about God? How many endless discussions have there been on the boards where natural reasoning of one person wars against the natural reasoning of another over word definitions, commentaries or quotes from other men's writings in general? "That's" not carnal reasoning?
I'm just . . . speechless at the fact that "you're" the one saying this! If it was Taffy, Sheila or even Cardinal I'd understand, but, you've never been one that embraced things that went much beyond the written word.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 08, 2011, 12:20:21 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 08, 2011, 11:39:36 AM
"If it includes "moving away from Jesus" then I agree."
Amen!
"A great falling away happend between 30-70AD. 40's-50's I think." WW
We aint talkn then, we talkin NOW.
That's your view. Not saying you are wrong. It's just that it can "prove" the falling away was any date you desire. Give me your birth date and I'll dig up some view it started at that date :winkgrin:
QuoteYes His ways are in the Bible, through out, but unless He opens your mind to the understanding of the spirit, it is just a thinking/studying/ and human reasoning.
No, it is not a bad thing, it just may take the Father a little longer to reach you [probably His plan anyway] so you will begin to listen.
"But still it was human reasoning." WW
Yes, and it is that very reasoning that will not allow you see.
Human reasoning is the carnal mind.......and that is enmity to God.
In that case owning a Bible is an act or rebelion against God.
Reading the Bible is blaphemy and ultimate rejection of God. Atheists are the true people of God. They use no carnal reasoning about God. They just live their lives and patiently waits for God showing the way.
You can't have it both ways Micah.
I have no idea of what you said in your last paragraph?
here is when the 'falling away' began. in the garden when they ate and 'hid' from God. Babylon spirit became active then and continues to this day...
and will continue til the last man in 'old Adam' is raised up into the image of the son.
That is why the smoke of her burning rose up forever and ever. The flame of God's love and jealousy is as unyeilding as the grave. Love is as strong
as death....and God's Love for mankind will not allow this spirit of death [babylon/falling away] to remain.
Test of jealousy....'FALLING AWAY' of the thigh
Well . .beings you went "there" Sheila :happy3:
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The falling away isn't just about people leaving God, The falling away brings a "revealing" to something that had been hidden. If we appy this literally to people falling away from God . . .what is that revealing?
The falling away reveals the son of perdition, the man of sin . . .which then tells me that this man of sin is concealed until "something" falls away to reveal who he is. For me, it's the veil of our minds.
2 Corinthians 3
13And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Quote from: Nathan on September 08, 2011, 06:59:39 PM
Wait a sec WW. Atheists are the true Christians? Maybe this would be easier to swallow if you shared your take on what an atheist is?
They use no carnal reasoning about God. They just live their lives and patiently waits for God showing the way.
This one just baffles me to no end. Most of what you do is the very opposite on these boards. You use no carnal reasoning about God? How many endless discussions have there been on the boards where natural reasoning of one person wars against the natural reasoning of another over word definitions, commentaries or quotes from other men's writings in general? "That's" not carnal reasoning?
I'm just . . . speechless at the fact that "you're" the one saying this! If it was Taffy, Sheila or even Cardinal I'd understand, but, you've never been one that embraced things that went much beyond the written word.
I think you're not seeing what WW is doing. He's just making a point to micah, trying to get him to look at what he said a little more closely/from a different angle. :2c:
C'mon bro Nate, don't be so literal. :laugh: :pointlaugh:
Peace. :)
I agree Nathan....
also when He removes the shroud/covering..of all people's faces. Also realizing the 'sin' in our flesh is the 'work' of the spirit of satan :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on September 08, 2011, 09:37:01 PM
Quote from: Nathan on September 08, 2011, 06:59:39 PM
Wait a sec WW. Atheists are the true Christians? Maybe this would be easier to swallow if you shared your take on what an atheist is?
They use no carnal reasoning about God. They just live their lives and patiently waits for God showing the way.
This one just baffles me to no end. Most of what you do is the very opposite on these boards. You use no carnal reasoning about God? How many endless discussions have there been on the boards where natural reasoning of one person wars against the natural reasoning of another over word definitions, commentaries or quotes from other men's writings in general? "That's" not carnal reasoning?
I'm just . . . speechless at the fact that "you're" the one saying this! If it was Taffy, Sheila or even Cardinal I'd understand, but, you've never been one that embraced things that went much beyond the written word.
I think you're not seeing what WW is doing. He's just making a point to micah, trying to get him to look at what he said a little more closely/from a different angle. :2c:
C'mon bro Nate, don't be so literal. :laugh: :pointlaugh:
Peace. :)
pffft!
lol
Quote from: Nathan on September 08, 2011, 06:59:39 PM
Wait a sec WW. Atheists are the true Christians? Maybe this would be easier to swallow if you shared your take on what an atheist is?
Someone who ignores the written word.
Of course there is an even more evolved group; those who reject the written word. You know the it's
only spiritual types.
QuoteThey use no carnal reasoning about God. They just live their lives and patiently waits for God showing the way.
This one just baffles me to no end.
I think all my 9000+ posts have baffled you :laughing7:
QuoteMost of what you do is the very opposite on these boards.
I truely believe you don't have a clue what I said/mean Nathan. I tried to explain so often. Usually you just ignore the explanations so this time I'm will be more direct. Your are so very blinded by your one track mind and vanity you very often don't have clue what people are writing.
QuoteYou use no carnal reasoning about God?
Not my words. Micah's words/defenition. And that defenition is very close to the one you tend to use.
QuoteHow many endless discussions have there been on the boards where natural reasoning of one person wars against the natural reasoning of another over word definitions, commentaries or quotes from other men's writings in general? "That's" not carnal reasoning?
Sure you are way above all that. Luckily you never get into fights. And if you do it's always the other person to blame.
QuoteI'm just . . . speechless at the fact that "you're" the one saying this! If it was Taffy, Sheila or even Cardinal I'd understand,
And now suddenly you group me with the elect? :dunno:
Of course I'm just a blinded pit creature but I would humbly suggest that those 3 persons likely don't promote atheism.
Quotebut, you've never been one that embraced things that went much beyond the written word.
I admit I don't feel anything; and never claimed so. But besides of that you are very, very, wrong. I would go as far as claiming that I'm far more open to Biblical things than you are.....
I stand in the middle of a field called Bible and look around and up and down. Unlike some who don't move and look through a narrow tube.
Lemme end with with this:
Some people see a light at and start running toward it because they think the light brings safety.
The more careful types read the signs and figure out the light is the front of an oncoming train.
I'm reading signs Nathan. You?
:bgdance:
Quote from: jabcat on September 08, 2011, 09:37:01 PM
Quote from: Nathan on September 08, 2011, 06:59:39 PM
Wait a sec WW. Atheists are the true Christians? Maybe this would be easier to swallow if you shared your take on what an atheist is?
They use no carnal reasoning about God. They just live their lives and patiently waits for God showing the way.
This one just baffles me to no end. Most of what you do is the very opposite on these boards. You use no carnal reasoning about God? How many endless discussions have there been on the boards where natural reasoning of one person wars against the natural reasoning of another over word definitions, commentaries or quotes from other men's writings in general? "That's" not carnal reasoning?
I'm just . . . speechless at the fact that "you're" the one saying this! If it was Taffy, Sheila or even Cardinal I'd understand, but, you've never been one that embraced things that went much beyond the written word.
I think you're not seeing what WW is doing. He's just making a point to micah, trying to get him to look at what he said a little more closely/from a different angle. :2c:
C'mon bro Nate, don't be so literal. :laugh: :pointlaugh:
Peace. :)
Finally! Someone who hath understanding :laughing7:
I think this could very easily get into a dark place that I don't wish to go, so I won't.
But I "see" that my postion is based on relationship with the Father. You may think otherwise of me and I'm absolutely okay with that. Yet when you involve yourself with biblical matters and claim to deny a relationship with God "that" raises red flags in me which I respond to. Because from what I've undertstood atheists to be, they don't believe God is God. And yet you'll go toe to toe with those who have a relationship with God and denounce them . .. all the while, stating you're an atheist.
Are the Scriptures to be taken so lightly that one can claim they're not a follower of Christ and yet confront others with Scripture at the same time?
And for the record, I've never said it's ONLY spiritual .. .I said it's ALL spiritual. And if we're called to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh, again, I don't understand the argument. If natural profits nothing, why the continuance of embracing the literal side of things when they "point" to the Spiritual realization of who Chirst is? Which is . . .spirit. So of course I'm going to pursue the spiritual side of everything. But one can't hold on to natural and attempt to see the spiritual at the same time. Ya gotta let go of the one before you can experience the other.
"Are the Scriptures to be taken so lightly that one can claim they're not a follower of Christ and yet confront others with Scripture at the same time?"
Since I believe the WHOLE ENTIRE BIBLE IS ALL SPIRITUAL and THE SUM OF HIS WORD IS TRUTH :dsunny:
Then I will boldly say that if a person claims that he/she is not a believer and follower of Christ..that the SCRIPTURES
ARE JUST AS POWERFUL AS TO A BELIEVER AND FOLLOWER. The WORD is SPIRIT and Jesus said His WORDS are Spirit and are Life.
Joh 6:63 The spirit, it is, that giveth life,—the flesh, profiteth, nothing: The declarations which, I, have spoken unto you, are, spirit, and, are, life.
And let me add this I have learned much from WW, he is a searcher and miner[at least Im sure he is better that I] with all his digging, he uncovers treasures[now he does not see them] but he pushes so much around when another who is a believer comes along THOSE TREASURES AND NUGGETS OF GOLD JUST SHOUT HEY!
So I thank the Lord for WW and his efforts and work. :bigGrin: :happyclap: :happyclap:
Yeah, I have no issues with WW wanting to debate Bible. We must be very careful with tokens of pride that seep into our interactions with others. I believe I am no more entitled to read and study the Bible than any other human being. My relationship with our Father qualifies me for sonship, and some understanding. But, it's not a diploma to hang on my wall. It's not something to use in order to one up someone in a debate. It's not something I should use to qualify an argument.
When debating and I feel my feathers getting ruffled, I ask myself why. I would like to think that it's some sort of "righteous anger" but in reality it's merely my unchecked pride the majority of the time. Someone is questioning my knowledge, my intelligence, or maybe even my relationship with God...and I think how dare they...what are their qualifications? My mind likes to begin taking an ax to cut out their proverbial legs. This kind of thing brings me spiritual illness quicker than just about anything else.
I see different posters here as bringing different things to the table. I enjoy WWs posts because I appreciate the research. Yes, he brings natural logic to the table and I read his posts in that light. But, in my book that doesn't disqualify him from a debate. He keeps posters on their toes, forces some to think about their stances, and as long as it's not condescending I see no issue with that.
Quote from: Nathan on September 08, 2011, 10:54:22 PMYet when you involve yourself with biblical matters and claim to deny a relationship with God "that" raises red flags in me which I respond to.
You rarely respond to me. You just repeat your views.
QuoteBecause from what I've undertstood atheists to be, they don't believe God is God.
More correctly would be to say they see no proof for God. Or there doubt so much the lean to no God.
QuoteAnd yet you'll go toe to toe with those who have a relationship with God and denounce them . .. all the while, stating you're an atheist.
I didn't live during WW2 but still I know things about that period. so what's your point?
QuoteAre the Scriptures to be taken so lightly that one can claim they're not a follower of Christ and yet confront others with Scripture at the same time?
Such tricks don't work with me Nathan.
I am the one that doesn't take Scriptures lightly. So please don't try to turn things around. I'm confronting you with Scripture. Please forgive me for posting verses on a Christian forum, and using Scripture lightly by assuming it are HS inspired truthful words that can be used as proof for anything.
QuoteAnd for the record, I've never said it's ONLY spiritual .. .I said it's ALL spiritual.
Fine. But it doesn't do any good to your case. In fact if supports my view. I believe the HS is
not a carnal dude that penned down so useless carnal ramblings.
QuoteAnd if we're called to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh, again, I don't understand the argument.
I'm not surprised at all.
QuoteIf natural profits nothing, why the continuance of embracing the literal side of things when they "point" to the Spiritual realization of who Chirst is?
And that exactly is your problem. Or should I say the problem I have with your view.
Even the most hardcore atheist knows the Bible is about spiritual things. (they just don't believe it's true)
My view is that both things are true. Not just one. OT was the age of law. The NT has done that away. We now live in the age of grace. Etc. And then the NT is written. 800 pages of other useless carnal stuff.
BTW that's
not my view.
QuoteWhich is . . .spirit. So of course I'm going to pursue the spiritual side of everything. But one can't hold on to natural and attempt to see the spiritual at the same time. Ya gotta let go of the one before you can experience the other.
Perhaps it's wise to check the carnal stuff to see if the light isn't some guy dressed as an angel of light.
You keep pointing the atheist stick at me but I thinks that's quite unfair. If I was here to ridicule Christianity I could have posted more articles than you can count.
Instead of that I posted many Christian/Jews based articles. I spend countles hours to dig up info people were looking for (I hope) And for your information I even edit my (2 year old) posts if I see I typed Jesus/God/HS/Bible without an uppercase letter. When I'm discussing something with any member on this forum it always is (has been) from a Biblical point of view. Ok, you can call my understanding shallow, wrong, perverted, etc, but still I never challenged anyone on this forum with atheistic views.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 08, 2011, 11:09:52 PMAnd let me add this I have learned much from WW, he is a searcher and miner[at least Im sure he is better that I] with all his digging, he uncovers treasures[now he does not see them]
This is just as hard as explaining timeless with words that all carry the meaning of time.
Really, I have had many "HA!!" moments on this forum. Things like "structures" like this can't be woven in an ancient Book by a nomand that can hardly write. Or this can't be random luck. I'm a mr. Spock. Cold hard logic. No/few emotions. And a cold heart.
The logic/stats pushes me toward a conclusion most on this forum reached long ago. But something blocks me from crossing "the great gulf fixed". So I pick up my
cross shovel daily and throw some dust in the gulf. One day it will be safe to cross :winkgrin:
Quotebut he pushes so much around when another who is a believer comes along THOSE TREASURES AND NUGGETS OF GOLD JUST SHOUT HEY!
So I thank the Lord for WW and his efforts and work. :bigGrin: :happyclap: :happyclap:
It's all in a days works :laughing7:
A day that has nearly ended :lazy:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 08, 2011, 10:43:51 PM
Finally! Someone who hath understanding :laughing7:
:wink3:
Quote from: shawn on September 08, 2011, 11:42:06 PM
Yeah, I have no issues with WW wanting to debate Bible. We must be very careful with tokens of pride that seep into our interactions with others. I believe I am no more entitled to read and study the Bible than any other human being. My relationship with our Father qualifies me for sonship, and some understanding. But, it's not a diploma to hang on my wall. It's not something to use in order to one up someone in a debate. It's not something I should use to qualify an argument.
When debating and I feel my feathers getting ruffled, I ask myself why. I would like to think that it's some sort of "righteous anger" but in reality it's merely my unchecked pride the majority of the time. Someone is questioning my knowledge, my intelligence, or maybe even my relationship with God...and I think how dare they...what are their qualifications? My mind likes to begin taking an ax to cut out their proverbial legs. This kind of thing brings me spiritual illness quicker than just about anything else.
I see different posters here as bringing different things to the table. I enjoy WWs posts because I appreciate the research. Yes, he brings natural logic to the table and I read his posts in that light. But, in my book that doesn't disqualify him from a debate. He keeps posters on their toes, forces some to think about their stances, and as long as it's not condescending I see no issue with that.
Amen. In agreement. We come from different perspectives. The principal participants in this discussion bring
much to the table. We are fortunate to have such wonderful things shared. Good for all. IMO, it's great to discuss, reason, maybe even try to convince just a little. But at some point,
1As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 3Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. ..It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike... none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. ..Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
[This one has hit me right between the eyes before and stopped me dead in my tracks] 10Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11for it is written,
"As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God."
12So then each of us will give an account of himself to God. Romans 14
Amen.
The OP;
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 07, 2011, 01:36:30 AM
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and impostors shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.
Who is Paul directing his words to?
And here also
2Ti 4:3 for there shall be a season when the sound teaching they will not suffer, but according to their own desires to themselves they shall heap up teachers--itching in the hearing,
2Ti 4:4 and indeed, from the truth the hearing they shall turn away, and to the fables they shall be turned aside.
In the title of this thread, either you meant IITimothy, or I'm missing about 9 epistles from my New Testament :grin:
:cloud9: I'm thankful for WW and his heart to do what he does in research. It's plain to me to see the Spirit working thru and for him, and a blessing to see the incredible transformation the Lord has wrought in him since he arrived here. (Not that you were so "bad" to begin with, but rather that your heart is so open to receive.)
It gives me great joy, in fact, and I can only imagine what the Lord has planned for him as He completes the work in him and fulfills his purpose. My :2c: Blessings...
Good that you wrote in another post you don't know everything, because this is one of those moments :laughing7:
Quotebut rather that your heart is so open to receive
Heart usually equals love. Maybe that's my problem. I don't know the emotion love :HeartThrob:
STARS THAT USED TO TWINKLE IN THE SKIES,ARE TWINKLING IN MY EYES,I WONDER WHY.
BIRDS ARE SINGING AND THE TREES ARE BARE....i WONDER WHY....
PERFECT LOVE CASTS OUT FEAR.....SOMEDAY YOU'LL MAKE THE LEAP :Sparkletooth:
THE ABOVE IS THE SONG THAT COME TO MIND FOLLOWING YOUR COMMENT...'I WONDER WHY,YOUR'E JUST IN LOVE'