Argument against universal salvation.

[fullarmor2]

     At www.ericbarger.com I found this against UR.
                   


       
Consider God becoming a man and dying on the cross so we can have forgiveness and eternal life in Heaven.  Consider people over the centuries either accepting or rejecting God's love.  Now, consider all those who died and suffered as martyrs (and still do!) for their faith in Christ.  Then, imagine the end of time, judgment day, all of mankind standing before God. He shrugs His shoulders and says, "Oh, all right ...ya'll come on in!"
Not a chance.  Not because God wants anybody going to Hell.  He doesn't.   The Bible clearly says God does not want "anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). And He provides EVERY opportunity for us to do so.
The Universalist asks, "How could a loving God send anyone to Hell?" Again, He doesn't.  We send ourselves by making that choice, refusing God's love and deciding not to make Jesus our Lord.

[CHB]

fullarmor2,

How is it that most denominations preach that we cannot earn our salvation by our works but we can loose it by our works?  There is something wrong here with this reasoning.

If we can't work to earn our salvation how is it that we have to work to keep it, wouldn't that be working to earn it? Duh ?  :mshock: Doesn't this reasoning work both ways?

If we have to work to earn our salvation, what did we need Jesus Christ for?

CHB

[pickr]

Consider God becoming a man and dying on the cross so we can have forgiveness and eternal life in Heaven.  Consider people over the centuries either accepting or rejecting God's love. Now, consider all those who died and suffered as martyrs (and still do!) for their faith in Christ.  Then, imagine the end of time, judgment day, all of mankind standing before God. He shrugs His shoulders and says, "Oh, all right ...ya'll come on in!"

That is a common caricature of the message of reconciliation in Christ Jesus, especially the "shrugs His shoulders" part. The Bible says that every knee will bow to the Lord Jesus and that every tongue will confess His lordship, all to God's glory. The Bible says nothing about God shurgging His shoulders.

Not a chance.  Not because God wants anybody going to Hell.  He doesn't.   The Bible clearly says God does not want "anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). And He provides EVERY opportunity for us to do so.

In this lifetime? For everyone? Really? That is simply not true. Billions have lived and died without ever hearing the Gospel

The Universalist asks, "How could a loving God send anyone to Hell?" Again, He doesn't.  We send ourselves by making that choice, refusing God's love and deciding not to make Jesus our Lord.

So few words, yet containing a library's worth of unBiblical gobbledygook. What the universalist Christian actually asks is, "How can so many read their Bibles and conclude that the doctrine of endless torment is anwhere taught therein?"

Peace and blessings,

Andy

[fullarmor2]

The Universalist asks, "How could a loving God send anyone to Hell?" Again, He doesn't.  We send ourselves by making that choice, refusing God's love and deciding not to make Jesus our Lord.

So few words, yet containing a library's worth of unBiblical gobbledygook. What the universalist Christian actually asks is, "How can so many read their Bibles and conclude that the doctrine of endless torment is anwhere taught therein?"

Peace and blessings,

Andy
[/quote] 

     This is a statement commonly used to defend ET gobbledygook.  It is soo contradictory.  If you believe that God is almighty and sovereign,  then you must acknowledge  that you also believe the  ideas that God knew in the beginning that almost everyone would perish while he was creating the so-called torment chamber, that he is allowing it to happen AND has been allowing it,  down thru history until now,  that God placed humans in a "life situation", one in which he knew that they would fail to live holy AND at the same time planned on allowing human beings to be burned alive unendingly, as punishment, for failing to do that which God knew they could NEVER do in the first place! And yes, I am also talking about the requirement of believing in Jesus. Because ET believers  must also acknowledge that they teach that God placed humans, again in a life situation in which he knew beforehand that many would not believe in Jesus. 
      Don't you think God would have a much better plan than this?  So do I!  I'm so glad he does AND I'm not surprised. I mean,  its no surprise that our wonderful Creator has such an awesome, incredible, glorious, and loving plan for human beings because he loves us so much. And that plan is revealed in the gospel of Jesus Christ.  But, that said,  I'm still in absolute and total AWE of God's plan and love for people. I say this because I want to be understood regarding what I meant when I said I'm not surprised by God's plan. I meant that I'm not surprised that his plan is good, BUT I am surprised at just how good it is!!
    P.S. -  Lord, I really hope that what I said here makes sense. Please help the ones who read this to understand me. Amen!

[hopeful]

Don't you think God would have a much better plan than this?  So do I!  I'm so glad he does AND I'm not surprised. I mean,  its no surprise that our wonderful Creator has such an awesome, incredible, glorious, and loving plan for human beings because he loves us so much.
*********************************************************
    P.S. -  Lord, I really hope that what I said here makes sense. Please help the ones who read this to understand me. Amen!

Amen!   :thumbsup:  You're coming through clearly!   :thumbsup:

[Gizmo]

The Universalist asks, "How could a loving God send anyone to Hell?" Again, He doesn't.  We send ourselves by making that choice, refusing God's love and deciding not to make Jesus our Lord.

Did you ever see the original Star Trek episode where Norman ran the robots and he was defeated using complete illogic.  It had the wonderful line in there..."Norman coordinate"..which was a plea for help from the automotons who were plugged into Norman.

Same goes for Christians.  Here's a little script I'm developing:

Christian: "We preach a gospel of grace, which means unmerited forgiveness.  There is nothing we can do to earn it."

Questioner: "That's great.  God forgives me no matter what"

Christian: "No, you must believe and repent, then He'll forgive you."

Questioner: "But isn't believing and repenting doing something to earn it.  How is that grace?"

Christian: "No.  You have it all wrong.  It is a change of heart, not doing something.  Well, I guess believing is doing something, but it's unearned, but you must do something, but it's unearned...NORMAN COORDINATE"

Giz

[FineLinen]

            
Consider God becoming a man and dying on the cross so we can have forgiveness and eternal life in Heaven.  Consider people over the centuries either accepting or rejecting God's love.  Now, consider all those who died and suffered as martyrs (and still do!) for their faith in Christ.  Then, imagine the end of time, judgment day, all of mankind standing before God. He shrugs His shoulders and says, "Oh, all right ...ya'll come on in!"
Not a chance.  Not because God wants anybody going to Hell.  He doesn't.   The Bible clearly says God does not want "anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). And He provides EVERY opportunity for us to do so.
The Universalist asks, "How could a loving God send anyone to Hell?" Again, He doesn't.  We send ourselves by making that choice, refusing God's love and deciding not to make Jesus our Lord.

Armor: Do you know that in the end, every being, in every dimension of the celestial, terrestial, and subterean willing bow in worship, and willingly confess with joy and celebration that Jesus Christ is Lord? Such worship in that day resounds to the honour and praise of the Living One who has sworn by Himself that unto Him every knee shall bow. Do you think for a nano-second that this worship is by rote or perfunctory genuflections?

Institutional Christianity is addicted to the idea that for things to work out right between us and God, "we have to do our part," and if we do, then "God will do His part." That makes God dependent upon us "getting it right" before He can get on with His purpose and will. At the heart of our flesh's alienation from God, at the heart of our blindness and ignorance, is the desire to get credited for "holding up our part of the deal." We like the idea of grace, as long as the successful operation of grace is attributable to us "letting God" do what He wants to do. -John Gavazzoni-

John Gavazonni

Meet John HERE

[Peacetroll]

fullarmor2,

How is it that most denominations preach that we cannot earn our salvation by our works but we can loose it by our works?  There is something wrong here with this reasoning.

If we can't work to earn our salvation how is it that we have to work to keep it, wouldn't that be working to earn it? Duh ?   Doesn't this reasoning work both ways?

If we have to work to earn our salvation, what did we need Jesus Christ for?

CHB

Salvation is not obtained by OUR works, it is a gift.

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

It is a gift to have faith in Christ.  This faith is not of our doing, but God's, thus predestination (called & chosen), unfolds.

2 Corinthians 9:15
Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


You would be hard pressed to convince me to consider anyone else's words (wether apostles, disciples or prophets), over my God Jesus Christ's.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

So, you that believe Jesus Christ more then all others, believe him when he states truth.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

[FineLinen]

P.T.: you state....

You would be hard pressed to convince me to consider anyone else's words (wether apostles, disciples or prophets), over my God Jesus Christ's.

Does this mean then that what the apostles and prophets of the Lord declare in the same Holy Book are of no significance in our understanding of the mind and will of the Sovereign One?


"Then opened He their understanding that they might understand the Scriptures."

Opened= Dianoigo

Dianoigo=

To open by dividing or drawing asunder.

To open thoroughly (what had been closed)

To open the mind of one, i.e. to cause to understand a thing.

To open one's soul, i.e. to rouse in one the faculty of understanding or the desire of
   

[Peacetroll]

I am simply stating a maxim that I utilize, and it can not lead you astray.

That the true Word of God (Who is Christ Jesus), is always pure and true.

His (Christ Jesus) words are golden and should be weighted heavier and with more signifigance then anyone else within scripture.

Do you disagree?

I am not stating that I ignore the prophets, no, not at all.

Nor am I stating that I ignore the apostles, absolutely not so.

I am simply stating that when a logical contradiction occurs (which if you truly study scripture you will come across them from time to time), I cetainly tend to lean heavy towards Christ's teaching's over others.

Matthew 17:5
While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Mark 9:7
And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Luke 9:35
And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. :HeartThrob:

Jesus Christ is love.  Without Love you have nothing.  Though I know all scripture, and speak with the tongue of angels, but have not Love (Christ), I am nothing.

[FineLinen]

I am simply stating a maxim that I utilize, and it can not lead you astray.

That the true Word of God (Who is Christ Jesus), is always pure and true.

His (Christ Jesus) words are golden and should be weighted heavier and with more signifigance then anyone else within scripture.

Do you disagree?

I am not stating that I ignore the prophets, no, not at all.

Nor am I stating that I ignore the apostles, absolutely not so.

I am simply stating that when a logical contradiction occurs (which if you truly study scripture you will come across them from time to time), I cetainly tend to lean heavy towards Christ's teaching's over others.

You would make an amazing disciple. :laughing7: Do you know that most (if not all) of what the Saviour of the whole world declared to them went quite beyond their understanding,  and in fact many of his disciples "walked no more with Him" after some of His words so easily understood.

We are pleased that you lean heavily towards Christ's teaching over others including the prophets of the Most High One and the apostles of the Lord. You shall surely not pass GO!

God is a consuming fire. His wrath and anger are spoken of. These attributes express the Divine hand raised against sin. If the Divine hand is raised against sin one must yield, and I don't believe it is the Divine hand. God is a consuming fire, not a fire burning forever in empty rage. He consumes man as the refiner's fire does the ore, burning the dross and bringing forth the good, as gold tried by fire. -P.T. Barnum-

[Peacetroll]

You find this funny? :dontknow: :mshock:

I am a disciple of Christ, just not an apostle nor a prophet.

Disciple: 1 one who accepts and assists in spreading the doctrines of another:  a: one of the twelve in the inner circle of Christ's followers according to the Gospel accounts    b: a convinced adherent of a school or individual

You see, I fit two out of three of the modern definitions (and so do many of you here).  We certainly try to spread Christ' teachings.  And are we not a convinced adherent to him?

Obviously I'd be insane to think that I am an apostle, for this is the definition I attribute to the 12.

Peace in Christ.

[Reverend G]

Are there contradictions in the Bible?  I don't think so.  This doesn't mean I don't see any, this means that the ones I see are not really contradictions, but failure on my part to fully understand.  When faced with that which confuses, I must err on the side of tolerance and unconditional love, as we are taught that God himself would do.  Thus follows, if it seems some verses claim only some will be saved, and others claim all will be saved, to reconcile this seeming contradiction, I must assume the best case scenario. 
  Indeed, it was mentioned by someone here that they felt God would give all humanity "every chance" to make itself worthy, but that some of us choose to fail to change.  Now, as humans, "every chance" means some finite number, but to an infinite being, it means something entirely different. To try and put it in a human context, though not scripturally accurate, "every chance" could mean that some could be treated to time in Hell's torment, then asked  "well, what'ya think now".  Just trying to put a humanistic spin on it, that's all.  In the great reality of it all, it seems more likely, given the truth of an omnipotent God, that when even the most sinful of us is brought to face judgement, none will be able to deny Him.  The "last chance" will save the least of us.  Not that one can have a "last chance" if we have "every chance".

[PaulTheJesusFreak]

Consider God becoming a man and dying on the cross so we can have forgiveness and eternal life in Heaven.  Consider people over the centuries either accepting or rejecting God's love. Now, consider all those who died and suffered as martyrs (and still do!) for their faith in Christ.  Then, imagine the end of time, judgment day, all of mankind standing before God. He shrugs His shoulders and says, "Oh, all right ...ya'll come on in!"

That is a common caricature of the message of reconciliation in Christ Jesus, especially the "shrugs His shoulders" part. The Bible says that every knee will bow to the Lord Jesus and that every tongue will confess His lordship, all to God's glory. The Bible says nothing about God shurgging His shoulders.

Not a chance.  Not because God wants anybody going to Hell.  He doesn't.   The Bible clearly says God does not want "anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). And He provides EVERY opportunity for us to do so.

In this lifetime? For everyone? Really? That is simply not true. Billions have lived and died without ever hearing the Gospel

The Universalist asks, "How could a loving God send anyone to Hell?" Again, He doesn't.  We send ourselves by making that choice, refusing God's love and deciding not to make Jesus our Lord.

So few words, yet containing a library's worth of unBiblical gobbledygook. What the universalist Christian actually asks is, "How can so many read their Bibles and conclude that the doctrine of endless torment is anwhere taught therein?"

Peace and blessings,

Andy

Well said, Andy.  :bigGrin: