Church Removes Cross To Be "More Inclusive"

[jabcat]

God help us.  Praise God for the message the gentleman "rebutting" the "pastor" shares.  Thank you Jesus that Your light still shines in the darkness - and that there are still those who will take a stand and not bow down to Baal.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4260672/church-tries-to-be-more-inclusive?playlist_id=86912

[Cardinal]

  :cloud9: There's a lot of people out there who wish the cross would disappear.....man is in bondage to the fear of death (dying to self) all of his days. Blessings...

[WhiteWings]

Pure dhimmi behavior...
The name of that baallaha church sounds like a stock exchange.

C3 Exchange removes cross gallery (6 photos)
SPRING LAKE — A prominent Spring Lake church removed its cross Tuesday and has changed its name as part of a series of moves intended to make it more inclusive


C3Exchange, 225 E. Exchange, Spring Lake, was formerly known as Christ Community Church. The Rev. Ian Lawton, the church's pastor, said the name change and removing the cross were designed to reflect the church's diverse members.

"Our community has been a really open-minded community for some years now," he said. "We've had a number of Muslim people, Jewish people, Buddhists, atheists. ... We're catching up (to) ourselves."

C3Exchange will hold a public meeting to address questions about the changes at 7 p.m. Thursday at Grand Haven Community Center, 421 Columbus.

"Nothing's going to be expected of anyone" who attends, Lawton said. "You don't have to sign up for anything. It should be a good, lively evening."

Lawton said the church decided to change its name about a year ago and began taking ideas from members. He said the new name was chosen because the church is on Exchange Street, and "our community is a place where people can come to exchange ideas."

He said the church is considering painting a heart, a globe and the word "exchange" on its exterior wall on the side where the cross stood, to symbolize "one love" for "all people."

C3 Exchange takes down cross


Lawton said he expects signs reflecting the new name will be up in about two weeks, and the outside wall facing East Savidge Street will be painted with new symbols in the next six months.

"We honor the cross, but the cross is just one symbol of our community," Lawton said.

Lawton gave a sermon March 21 likening using the cross as a symbol of Christ's life to using a bullet to remember Martin Luther King Jr. He said that opinion is his and not the church's.

"That particular talk traveled the world," he said of the mostly positive feedback he received. "The cross has become a negative symbol for a lot of people."

The church's cross may be relocated to International Aid Inc., a Christian mission and disaster relief organization, at 17011 Hickory, Spring Lake Township. David Wisen, CEO of International Aid, said he will display the cross outside if zoning regulations allow, or will give it to another group that can display it.

"We believe the cornerstone of our faith is ... what Jesus Christ did for us on the cross," Wisen said.

Lawton said most feedback the church has received has been positive. He said some people had not come to the church in the past because they had thought it was a traditional congregation, and others were disappointed by what they found when they came expecting a traditional service.

"I think mainly people are pleased to have the clarity," he said. "If there's any angry feedback, no one's said anything to me."

Lawton said C3Exhange will also begin "dechurching" the building's interior over the next year, replacing banners and rearranging the building's layout.

"We want to make the whole experience from the moment people walk in the church ... to match our inclusive identity," he said. "We're not trying to change anyone, because we say, 'Come as you are.'"

Lawton said C3Exchange does not mean to criticize or mock Christianity.

"We're not any threat to the other churches," Lawton said. "We want (other churches) to do well, but we're trying to provide an alternative."

[jabcat]

Yes.   :upset:  

The "pastor" said something about it being a place people can "practice being human".  Is that the goal of worship and following Jesus, Who said "take up your cross...."?!

[WhiteWings]

Personally I think the cross isn't the symbol of Christianity.
("take up your cross....") can also be translated as staff.
Regardless if I'm rigt or wrong about the above I strongly oppose the reason for removing the cross.
Because a muslim attends to that church the cross needs to be removed?
Is a muslim in a Christian church a muslim?
Maybe the "pastor" should paint Mammon on his "church".

[jabcat]

I agree.  BTW, what does TCB say about "take up your cross"?  (mine's in my car and I'm being lazy  :bigGrin:).  I know they often if not always use "stake" rather than cross...

[WhiteWings]

Stake.

What do you think is the true symbol of Christianity?

[jabcat]

Well, if Jesus was truly crucified on a stake rather than a cross, then I'm not sure.  If it was really a Roman cross, then I'd say the cross is the symbol.

I think the generally accepted symbols are the cross and the fish (supposedly the earlier followers scratched that symbol in the sand, etc.  :dontknow:).  I wonder if in the scriptures there is any indication of what God would use to symbolize true belief on Him?  Love?  ("by this they'll know you're my disciples, if you have love for one another...").  But then that's not really a symbol, but a "sign"/evidence...I really don't think a  :HeartThrob: is a universal Christian symbol.    

[jabcat]

This is interesting;  [Quick Summary - JW's believe the translation is "stake", and The Christian Bible also translates as such.  The word in the Greek though, can also mean a stake with a cross beam, in other words, a cross.  There is also fairly recent archeological evidence that the Romans in fact did use a cross in their crucifixions...more info in following post]

Jehovah Witnesses And The Symbol Of The Cross

by Mark McFall

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society teaches that the cross is not a valid Christian symbol and that Jesus did not die on a cross but a "torture stake." I expect that many of you reading this article have encounter such an assertions made by a Witnesses standing at your door. The question is, how do you respond to such a claim?

The first step in understanding why this statement is made is to know that every where your Bible uses the word "cross," their Bible uses the word "stake." To confirm their position they will use partial quotes and references from scholars that seem to back up their claim that the Greek word stauros in the New Testament means "stake" or "pole" instead of its true meaning "cross." They also will say, "stauros" in both the classical Greek and Koine carries no thought of a "cross" made of two timbers, but instead it carries the notion of only an upright stake, a pale, pile, or pole.1

When the Greek lexicons are checked, however, one finds this is not the case. Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich's A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament states: "...a stake sunk into the earth in an upright position; a cross-piece was often attached to its upper part, so that it was shaped like a T or thus +2. Let's look at a few more Lexicon entries for "cross" (Stauros):


Friberg AGNT Lexicon:
"Stauros" lit. cross, an instrument of capital punishment, an upright pointed stake, oft. w. a crossbeam above it, or intersected by a crossbeam3.

Louw-Nida Lexicon:
["Stauros"] a pole stuck into the ground in an upright position with a crosspiece attached to its upper part so that it was shaped like a 'cross.'.....reference is probably to the crosspiece of the cross, which normally would have been carried by a man condemned to die4.

Barclay Newman Greek Dictionary and Thayer's Lexicon both read simply: "Stauros" Cross5, 6.

The Watchtower Society not only claims that Christ did not die on a cross, they further state that there is no evidence that a cross with a crossbeam was ever even used by Romans during the first century. They claim the stake was "the then customary usage of this means of execution in the Orient."7 They maintain, "The evidence is, therefore, completely lacking that Jesus Christ was crucified on two pieces of timber placed at right angles...The passing of time and further archaeological discoveries will be certain to prove its [torture stake] correctness."8 This last quote that I have underlined was first published in 1969. In 1968, perhaps at the same time the claim was being written, a discovery was made in a dig in Jerusalem that challenges the Watchtower's argument. This was so devastating to their position, that in the later 1985 edition of the same appendix of the Kingdom Interlinear, the Society discontinued the claim that archaeology would vindicate their claim.

[thinktank]

Jesus said to take up our cross and follow him though, not take up our stake, unless there are translation issues. :2c:

[WhiteWings]

Jesus said to take up our cross and follow him though, not take up our stake, unless there are translation issues. :2c:

imo there are translation issues.

From strong:
4716 stauro,j stauros {stow-ros'}
Meaning:  1) an upright stake, esp. a pointed one 2) a cross 2a) a well known instrument of most cruel and ignominious punishment, borrowed by the Greeks and Romans from the Phoenicians; to it were affixed among the Romans, down to the time of Constantine the Great, the guiltiest criminals, particularly the basest slaves, robbers, the authors and abetters of insurrections, and occasionally in the provinces, at the arbitrary pleasure of the governors, upright and peaceable men also, and even Roman citizens themselves 2b) the crucifixion which Christ underwent

[jabcat]

I was thinking about this Tony.  I'm thinking a cross might actually technically qualify as a stake.  So even IF stake was the most literal translation, maybe a cross could still be a form of that...a stake with a cross beam on it. 

Sort of like a car or a truck is an automobile..  :2c:

[WhiteWings]

Well, if Jesus was truly crucified on a stake rather than a cross, then I'm not sure.  If it was really a Roman cross, then I'd say the cross is the symbol.

I think the generally accepted symbols are the cross and the fish (supposedly the earlier followers scratched that symbol in the sand, etc.  :dontknow:).  I wonder if in the scriptures there is any indication of what God would use to symbolize true belief on Him?  Love?  ("by this they'll know you're my disciples, if you have love for one another...").  But then that's not really a symbol, but a "sign"/evidence...I really don't think a  :HeartThrob: is a universal Christian symbol.    

I think a candlestick is the symbol?

About cross: yes and no. Read reply #19

[thinktank]

According to Jesus both his hands were pierced, so there must be a section where his hands were nailed into, and with just one pole piece, there would be no place to put his hands. :2c:

[WhiteWings]

According to Jesus both his hands were pierced, so there must be a section where his hands were nailed into, and with just one pole piece, there would be no place to put his hands. :2c:

That's a wrong conclusion.
Both his feet were pierced too. There was a crucifixion method on a pole. Not often used because the victim did't suffer long enough that way.

Anyway read the post just above yours.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_dTSEBZ7tOe0/SJsJlaPhekI/AAAAAAAAARM/tg6Fjcdc8n8/s320/WTWhatDoesBiblep52.JPG)

[thinktank]

Never thought of that, thanks for the pic.

It got me thinking though about Moses staff, for his staff was referenced about concerning Jesus. I am going to have to re read it.

My thinking is a staff is like a pole :2c:

[WhiteWings]

http://jesusisyhwh.blogspot.com/2008/08/was-jesus-executed-on-cross-or-stake-3c.html

[micah7:9]

My answer to the cross debate is the same answer I give for the removal of prayer, should this be where the Lord is bringing us, the country, this world... let us rejoice. I dont need permission to pray, in fact no one but God has to know I pray when I pray. So it is with the cross, has this tree, cross, stake become so the symbol, perhaps even an idol to some, that the believer, saints and soon manifested sons, must stand and fight for the literal emblem if how we walk in the Spirit?
"This is God's way of life; through trial, suffering, corruption and death; and the symbol of this way is the Cross. To "bear the cross" is to follow Christ's footsteps in this way of life through death, "knowing the fellowship of his sufferings" and being "made conformable unto his death" (Phil. 3:10), "that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body" (Rom. 8:11). Our various trials, afflictions, persecutions, etc.., are not so many crosses that we must bear, but all parts of one cross; that is to say, all these are part and parcel of the one only way to life, through self-crucifixion and death, to the same life that Jesus won in this same way." AP Adams

[Nathan]

Who was it that established the cross to be the identity of a Christian?  What exactly is it that the cross part actually represents?  If you say it's to represent death . . .Jesus dying for the world, then I would have to ask, is "that" really what the true identity should even be in the first place then?

Seems to me, Peter was rebuked and even called satan for his role in interfering with the true identity of Christ because he was passionate about protecting Jesus from dying. 

I'm not sure I support this guy for having his standards going from Christ being the "only" door to the Father to just "any" belief in a God in general will do the trick.  But at the same time, perhaps God "is" beginning to tear down some idols in order for truth to be revealed.

To me, the symbol of Christ isn't about the cross alone . . .it's definitely a necessity, but the actual "purpose" was to bring resurrection back to the death of the first Adam.  So there really should be an empty tomb, an empty grave, maybe a grave marker with a fiery "X" over it or something. 

They're reasons may be a bit out there, but I do believe the religious system as we've known it all these generations is indeed coming down. 

John 2:19
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Let them tear down the temple . . .Jesus is resurrecting a new one anyway.

[WhiteWings]

Well, if Jesus was truly crucified on a stake rather than a cross, then I'm not sure.  If it was really a Roman cross, then I'd say the cross is the symbol.

I think the generally accepted symbols are the cross and the fish (supposedly the earlier followers scratched that symbol in the sand.

"generally accepted" very often means paganized. Like the myth of hell for example.

The real "sign" of the Mashiach isn't a crux or a fish, but a "lampstand" (menorah) Rev. 1&2.
The Hebrew "menorah" has 7 lamps, and represents His body, the 7 assemblies, through which flows the "living water" (lamp oil, the laws which give light to the world).
At Rev. 2:5 he said He would remove their menorah if they didn't repent (stop breaking Commandments).

^KJVRev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

[onlytruth]

If the symbol of the cross is so important...why do gangsters or fowl mouthed rappers wear it on a regular basis?
I tend to agree that we worship to many idols, and they are being torn down!
blessings :icon_king:

[WhiteWings]

I tend to agree that we worship to many idols, and they are being torn down!

That's a valid reason for me.
But the reason this "pastor" did it was very wrong imo.

[CHB]

What if Jesus was crucified on a tree and not a cross?

(Acts 5:30) (Acts 10:39)    (1 Peter 2:24) (Acts 13:29)  (Gal. 3:13)

CHB

[WhiteWings]

What if Jesus was crucified on a tree and not a cross?

I think you are right about that: Start reading at Reply #19

[jabcat]

I tend to agree that we worship to many idols, and they are being torn down!

That's a valid reason for me.
But the reason this "pastor" did it was very wrong imo.

That's exactly the way I see it too.  If this group were heading deeper into a Christ-centered experience, that's great.  But that in no way is what I perceive to be happening in this instance.