Why Debate Anything?

[Syndicated]

I have had a thought run through my head this morning and I need to vent it...

I understand the importance of teaching the truth to people and to empower them with knowledge, as people need to know in order to be freed from the sin they live in day to day.  I also understand that people are going to be having different opinions and different understandings as a result of influences around them and how they interpret passages in the bible.  But that's the problem... everyone (in my life-long experience of listening to 'soap-box preachers' in the church and reading forums) believes that their understanding of the bible and Jesus and God is the correct one and everyone should listen to them about it, cause they're right.  I will agree with people on parts of their theology, other parts I won't agree, sometimes I don't have any understanding on what's being said.  It's all based on my life's experiences and understanding of things pertaining to the bible.  But my questions are this:

If we're all aready part of the inheritance of God, what's the point in trying to debate/argue the interpretation of different teachings of the bible?  If someone is already at peace with what they believe, who are we to tell him/her that he/she is wrong?  If someone has a question about something and they come to you about it, yes, tell them what you know and back it up so that they can then make a decision for themselves about it.

I realize that in teaching the bible, people can take things out of context here and there and it's important to know the full context of what is being taught otherwise it leads to confusion and judgement, but I see it more and more as an opportunity for people to try to put other people down (either directly or indirectly) because they don't have the same understanding of it... that they don't have the "correct beliefs", instead of showing how they have taken a verse out of context.  Don't get me wrong, I'm all for teaching what the bible says about something, but only in it's full context... not in bits and pieces.

Also... If we're all already included somehow, be it now while we're alive or after death, what's the point in arguing over how and when it will happen?  It's gonna happen when it happens... as the bible says, each in his own order.

:dontknow:
:2c:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Because God said things were going to happen in that manner.

1C 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


Ti 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

[Dallas]

If we're all aready part of the inheritance of God, what's the point in trying to debate/argue the interpretation of different teachings of the bible?  If someone is already at peace with what they believe, who are we to tell him/her that he/she is wrong?

I was visited by a couple of nice mormons the other day. They were spreading thier message about what they believe. They were quite at peace with what they thought and through good intentions were trying to help me have a better life. If I were ignorant to what the scripture says I would have easliy been seduced into the warmth they were preaching. Now when they were done they went their way and I mine, niether of us any worse for the experience.

Both of us believe that we know God and love God and are benifiting from God, so as you question... what would the reason be for me to interupt thier life with my form of the gospel?

Freedom. "For it is freedom that Christ set us free," Galatians 5:1. Until I was freed from something I never really had peace from it, but instead really only had a way to cope with or delude myslef into thinkning I had that peace.

A man living in a rented house, with a kid and his wife cashing his good paycheck that easily pays for the rent and all their needs and then some contemplates the goodness and peace of his life. Another man sits in his chair resting with peace because his house is already paid for.



Just because we think we live in peace doesn't me we are living in peace. Tell me, who's peace would you rather have, the working man's peace or the resting man's peace?

[Nathan]

How about edifying one another?  That kinda requires communication and relationship on some level.  Maybe people come to the boards wounded from religious abuse and they see these discussions as ointment and enlightenment.  Maybe they're looking for true examples of how to rightly divide (which is what the Word does "in" us) and because we are social beings, the conversations lead us into a more effective relationship in our own walk with the Father. 

Or, what if spiritually speaking, I'm tone deaf and can't sing but want to worship.  I don't know what song you're singing but the sound of your message has drawn me in.  I may not have the voice of a soloist, but as I read the hymns of your lives in Christ, I find myself humming along.  I may not sing the same notes as you, but I find I can harmonize in what you're saying.  Next thing you know, God reveals this huge choir praising his anthems and I'm in it!  I'm a living stone that cries out in harmony with a message my mind can't grasp but my spirit longs so much for it. 

I'm an eglet who's time has come to fly but I'm too afraid to leave the nest where everything has been dropped in my mouth rather than provided for me through other means as other eagles somehow see nourishment from the elevations of the spirit.  If only there were words that others would share with each other that would prod me out of this place where I was born perched on some mountaint top out in the middle of nowhere. 

Rather than destructive arguments, through them I could actually learn to harmonize.  Sing the same song, have the same sound, just in a different key.  See things in a different way, yet the message is one of rest, resurrection, life and light.  How can I hear if others don't speak? 

My heart "is" transformed.  My destination is already provided.  But my head must go through due process until I find the fulness and completion into the maturity of who Christ has ordained me to be.  I need to be able to talk it out.  I need to be able to hear what I think.  I need to be able to have my head hear what my heart is saying.  I need to have my eyes see the words God is revealing to my spirit.  I need conversations.

If for no other reason than to profess the goodness of his grace and mercy, I need conversations.

[eaglesway]

I see the word debate from two different perspectives. Nathan used the words destructive arguments in his post and I believe debate can take that direction and that kind of debating is useless. Paul talked about striving about words and endless questions about the law. He said the servant of the Lord must not strive.

On the other hand he said, "Be instant in season and out; reprove, rebuke and exhort, with all longsuffering and doctrine", and, "always be ready to give a defense".

Like everything else, we need to be led by the spirit, be wise, and stay in the love of God.

[Wart Hog]

A Quote from the Christian Examiner 1824: "Error is essentially temporary, since it carries the seeds of its destruction in its own bosom. As the ark of our faith descends the stream of time, later and later generations will behold it less encumbered with the mistakes of men, and more and more conspicuous in its own truth. Our hope derives confirmation from the history of physical science. It was gradually and insensibly, that the well known truths of modern discovery respecting the planetary system and the elemental world gained their prevalence. But a few years ago a distinguished philosopher was arraigned for believing in the central position of the sun in the solar system, and the revolution of the earth and planets about that body; and now every schoolboy talks of the apparent motion of the sun and the real motion of the earth. Will the case be different in respect to religious truth? Truth must prevail, not only because it is mighty, but because it is eternal. It must outlive error. Like the God of truth it never changes. There has been a progress in mankind, from ignorance to knowledge; and, if men continue to advance, as by the laws of human nature and condition they hitherto have done, they will advance nearer to truth. Like the company of the Persian caravan, all will adore the sun when they see him, however they may have differed in his absence. But the light existed. We do not make it; we do not robe it in glory, - we draw near and find it, as we draw near to God and find Him. Men can no more help advancing towards it, than they can help advancing in time; than they can stop at the morning twilight the revolution of the earth; or perpetuate the dusk through the hours of the day. It matters not whether the progress be rapid or slow, - whether the night of error be the length of the natural night, or whether it be a duration, whose glorious end can be foreseen only by Him to whom 'a thousand years are as one day;' – the fact is the same, - the inference just. The day is dawning; already its faint harbingers illuminate the mountain tops; already the rays of the beautiful morning glance on the land; and, though centuries should elapse before the rising of the sun, still it is rising; the world will rejoice in its beams; mankind will see it, though it should shine only on our graves. 'The floods have risen, O Lord! The floods have lifted up their voice; the waves of the sea are mighty, yet the Lord who dwelleth on high is mightier. The Lord will not fail his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance; until judgment shall return again unto righteousness; and all such as are true in heart shall follow it.' From this state of things, and from these prospects, there arises a duty. Although such consequences may be considered not wanting in probability, it is not the less our duty to endeavor to accelerate them. The omnipotent God must indeed always work on the side of truth, but then his aid and blessing are promised only to human exertions. God has not promised to help him who does nothing to help himself. We have no right to expect divine influences, except as the consequence and reward of our own previous efforts. It is the prayer of faith and the practice of faith, which God answers with help. Let us not say that one generation, or even one individual, can do nothing. The smallest sands of ocean help to build its resting place, and to extend its shores. The blue expanse of heaven is composed of particles smaller than the dewdrop. Every star tells something of God. Every lamp is an addition to the light. Every effort adds to the accumulation of strength. Every repetition of a sentiment helps to fix and to disseminate it. Every sheep that has strayed from the fold of truth, is a subject of joy when recovered, as much as every prodigal, that wanders from his father's house, is a subject of congratulation, and a meritorious object of love and reward when he returns." Christian Examiner 1824.

[Syndicated]

Thanks for the insight guys.  It really helped to clear a mental block that was put up in my mind and heart about debating anything.    I guess I had 'debate' and 'argue' as the same thing when it's not.  I had always seen it as a very negative and tearing down act, and though that may sometimes happen, I never was able to see the positive side of things...

As Dallas said, it can bring true peace and freedom.

As Nathan said, it can edify and speak the truth.

I see that needing to always be diligent in the Truth is neccessary, and respect and be patient people who still cannot see that Truth.

[marie glen]

I like to discuss universal reconciliation and the impossibility, illogic, and misunderstanding of scripture verses concerning 'hell' because I believe the 1st resurrection is far more joyful and greatly surpasses the 2nd resurrection (initially). And also because I believe many dismiss the idea of God and Christianity because of the image of God presented by the idea of 'hell' etc, delaying their joy and comfort in knowing God and His Son Jesus..  :smile:

[WhiteWings]

I believe the 1st resurrection is far more joyful and greatly surpasses the 2nd resurrection (initially).

Surpasses in joy or numbers?

[Nathan]

When I first came into the tearing down the doctrine of hell in my own life, I had no idea how far that would reach into my other beliefs in other areas . .. such as the devil, satan, demons . .but you start messing with the foundation of one part of your doctrine, you are removing the stability of the entire beleif system other people have assisted in building up in you.

But it's gotta happen.  Truth is not contained in a doctrine.  It's very bold in how it blatantly walks straight to the boundaries of my belief system and with a wry grin, doesn't even hesitate, it just keeps right on going in it's straight line of righteousness, not even giving notice to the boundaries of my beleif system as it continues to manifest and proclaim the endless love in the nature of God, all the while, my whole comfort zone of what I thought to be true comes crashing down.

And now, the idea that I onced embraced the concept that the doctrine of hell is the intimidating source used to instill fear to motivate others to come to the God of Love, who IS Love . . .it still makes me wince and laugh at myself at the same time.  It also enrages me to see others continue to enforce the whole insane line of thought.

[marie glen]

I believe the 1st resurrection is far more joyful and greatly surpasses the 2nd resurrection (initially).

Surpasses in joy or numbers?

I'm thinking the 1st resurrection far surpasses the 2nd one in joy (initially anyway) and I think there will be quite a lot more folks in the 2nd resurrection than the 1st.. To me a good defense for universal redemption is "why the 2nd resurrection if the ones in it are to be 'lost' or worse, why not just not resurrect them?" (Resurrection being a bringing back to life or alive from nonlife)

[firstborn888]

Why Debate Anything? Probably because most who want to learn and grow do so by asking questions and discussing the merits or non-merits of opposing views. AISI - non-debate = stagnation. 

Iron sharpens iron. 

[Universalist Catholic]

If you ask me, debate is nothing more than people who both disagree with eachother on something and continuing an endless argument till the last person who speaks is the "Winner".  Plus some people are not real good at debating, others are.  Remember that debate between Gary and that Jerry guy?  I think it was a little rigged considering that the guy hosting the show was a traditionalist.  Plus most Universalists care more about acting Christlike than advertising their beliefs and putting down those who believe differently.  Im not saying its easy to walk away from debate, but its the best way to pass the message of Jesus on.  I sometimes get frustrated with the ET believers, considering how they think they are the bible scholars, and yet completely overlook all the positive scriptures about universal redemption, because they are too busy fantasizing about the scriptures that seem to teach unending torment(If interpreted correctly and non biasely) 

[thinktank]

I suppose without debate, the real reason would be because we would be living in fear.

Oh I don't want to step on any toes I might offend them. This attitude might be appropriate sometimes, but if we never debate, then the real reason must be because we are affraid of the other people, which is not good, regardless of what belief one has.

[eaglesway]

Luk 9:55  But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
(2Ti 2:23-26)

Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
(Jas 3:13-18)

I don't think debate is, in itself, either positive or negative. What is done in the spirit profits. What is done in the flesh profits nothing. What is done in the letter kills. What is done in the Spirit gives life. It is discerning when a spirit of strife and self exaltation is taking over the conversation and having the wisdom to cease when the time is right to do so. There cannot always be "closure" in a debate. There is always "closure" in fellowship. Sow in peace.

[thinktank]

Good post, it balances mine  :thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

Luk 9:55  But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
(2Ti 2:23-26)

Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
(Jas 3:13-18)

I don't think debate is, in itself, either positive or negative. What is done in the spirit profits. What is done in the flesh profits nothing. What is done in the letter kills. What is done in the Spirit gives life. It is discerning when a spirit of strife and self exaltation is taking over the conversation and having the wisdom to cease when the time is right to do so. There cannot always be "closure" in a debate. There is always "closure" in fellowship. Sow in peace.

:cloud9:  :thumbsup: I think what makes this board so successful,for one thing, is that as we get to know each other we try to let a "family" relationship take precedence.

We all have extended family members we don't agree with, yet at the Thanksgiving Day dinner, all these things are forgotten (in a close knit family), as they focus on fellowship and relationship. If we don't adopt this attitude, then the food fights start and we become like many of the other discussion boards, which is not what the owner wants. "Mashed potatoes", anyone?  :winkgrin: Welcome to the "family". Blessings....

[eaglesway]

I'll have a big scoop of them mashed potatoes please........ :gimmefive:

[thinktank]

where ever there are 'mashed potatoes', there the eagles will gather!

[reFORMer]

The word G4803 syzētēsis meaning: "mutual questioning, disputation, discussion" is translated in the AV with— disputation 1, disputing 1, reasoning 1 is seen below in Ac 15 translated "questioning" in the CLT

Acts 15^1-2,6-7, CLT...
1 And some, coming down from Judea, taught the brethren that, "If you should not be circumcised after the custom of Moses, you can not be saved."
2 Now as Paul and Barnabas come to have no slight commotion and questioning with them, they prescribe that Paul and Barnabas and some others from among them are to go up to the apostles and elders in Jerusalem concerning this question.
     At Jerusalem....
6 Now the apostles and the elders were gathered to see about this matter.
7 Now, there coming to be much questioning, rising, Peter said to them...

Another word in Acts G1256 dialegomai is translated in the AV with— dispute 6, reason with 2, reason 2, preach unto 1, preach 1, speak 1 and CLT uses "arguing," seen below in Acts 19:

Acts 19^8-9, CLT...
8 Now, entering the synagogue, he spoke boldly for three months, arguing and persuading as to that which concerns the kingdom of God.
9 Now, as some were hardened and stubborn, saying evil things of the way before the multitude, withdrawing from them, he severs (AV:  separated) the disciples, arguing day by day in the school of Tyrannus.
10 Now this occurred for two years, so that all those dwelling in the province of Asia hear the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.
Another word in Acts G1256 dialegomai is translated in the AV with— dispute 6, reason with 2, reason 2, preach unto 1, preach 1, speak 1

It is difficult with the online software I know about to search out various forms of any particular Greek or Hebrew word.  The AV (KJV) uses "disputing" several times for a word that can mean "arguing."  There are other related words.  But what I quoted above reveals what we also find in the ministry of Jesus.  There were many occaisions when He was arguing, debating, disputing and persuading with people around Him.  This is a good thing.

It is a great loss that in our day there are virtually no public debates, particularly regarding Scripture.  Men depend on "gentile" authority, the arm of the flesh, to be rid of all dissenters.  It would be wonderful to have a "Prophecy Conference" where, instead of orators prescribing what their audiences are to believe, we would instead have public discussions and debates where the Scripture is elevated as authority and is examined as  deeply as we are able from various points of view.

[Nathan]

In that type of an arena reFORMer, I suppose if the conditions were right, like for me, it would need a facilitator and every individual agreeing to respect every other individual kind of thing, it may be of some benefit. 

I think on certain levels of our maturity process, the debates are essential to solidify things in us as well as shake up and remove other things in us.  Unfortunately, many times the argument becomes more destructive in nature than the original intent. 

If we could approached all topics and all people with the idea that our personal goal and purpose on boards such as these is one, to elevate the nature of Christ in us and others and two, to edify one another, to build up, to encourage . .then in this light, I'd say let the debates be loosed.

Unfortunately, we, including me, all to often let our doctrine get in the way of our relationship with each other and our discussions become a little too aggressive . . .I'm not thinking of just Tent, but forums in general, especially when you get into areas where the topics are very volital.  Free will, accuracy of Scriptures . . .subjects that are very passionately expressed can become very destructive very quickly. 

Yet at the same time, when you get around someone who just illuminates life and light all the time, you want to just drink in everything that they say.  I think debates are healthy when approached in a healthy manner which is why, I think, this board as others do as well, has moderators to monitor us and make sure we don't get out of hand with each other. 

Why debate?  It's a good way to flesh things out.  I find I grow deeper when I write or speak what I see.  When you see it or hear yourself say it, it kind of has a way with settling in you . . .or shifting around until settling comes.  But I do think debates can be a very healthy way for us to grow deeper in the things of God when we come into the debate with the proper balance.

At the same time I say that, I can also see how a contrary person can actually help another person in that you learn how to deal with contrary people in a more effective and hopefully loving manner.

[shawn]

I'll probably be in the great minority who think this but here goes.  I have done alot of searching, reading, studying.  I have seen many different opinions about many subjects and many have reasonable scriptural support.  Sometimes my head swims in this stuff.  Sometimes I believe I have no chance of "figuring it out".  So, I question is it the destination that is of value (in the knowledge sense)?  Sometimes I believe that this is a journey of futility...that I can not rely on my own understanding.  In this I can find faith...faith in the goodness of God.  I can come to my Father and just bask in his love without knowing all the details.  Ultimately, trusting in his holiness, goodness and mercy.  When Jesus said of the children...that we need to become like these in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.  Is this what he meant?  The more I study the more I think so.

[thinktank]

I think that as children things are much more about the spirit of things,rather than about gaining things, so an adult will run to compete or to get fit, but a child will run for the fun of it and sometimes as adults we do run for fun and the difference in our attitudes tell. We feel much more alive when we do things for the spirit of things. So to me natural things are the creation of God and do speak about God and so can our minds understand God, but when the spirit breathes life in our minds, we no longer think, so God whats in it for me, but rather worship God, because its fun and is in the spirit of things and we no longer debate to win the argument, but rather to seek truth, because truth is more interesting in the spirit of things. In the carnal mind truth can sometimes be a fearfull thing, but the spirit makes it a joy on some levels.

Being children also, makes us rely on God and to let go of our pride, that God is indeed rightoeus and his ways are not like mans ways, God knows all things about a man but does not condem us, unlike people who at even the slightest wrongs, will begin to condem us and hold us in contempt.

[shawn]

I guess I have to ask myself...Shawn why do you really want to know? (Yes, I do talk to myself sometimes  :grin:)  Is it really to correct brothers misunderstandings about scripture?  Is it because I want to do all the things spoken about in this thread?  I wish I could say that is the complete truth.  While, that is part of it...I would say some of it comes from a place alot more selfish and insecure.  Does it come from a lack of faith...yes.  Does it come from a place of anxiety?  Yes.  Does it come from a place of pride...yes.

So, maybe I ask these questions for all the wrong reasons.  Anytime I do something I must ask why I do it.  And often I don't like the answer.  I am just a sinner saved by the blood of Christ.  I don't have many answers other than that.  That is my faith.  Beyond that I don't have much to tell the world.   

[Beloved Servant]

My 2 cents...

I hate all confrontation!

War

Sports  ( the"civil" form of war) (called the Olympics in ancient days)

The robin that pulls the earthworm out of the soil after a storm.

It's all unbearable!

Jesus our LORD tells us to go out and teach the Word but we forget that He also says that if they receive you not than brush off the dust and carry on.

We should not debate anything. Period.

That is stubborness, idol worship, putting Adam before the Almighty.