Did Jesus die

[micah7:9]

Did Jesus really die? I believe Jesus had to die a real death, dont fully understand but...and in the same vein of thought His death was not a substitute; His death was for us, He payed the ransome, He did not die instead of us, we still have to die.
Heb 9:27  And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment;

[WhiteWings]

Ask that on a muslim forum and you will get your answer. No someone took His place.... :sigh:

[micah7:9]

Ask that on a muslim forum and you will get your answer. No someone took His place.... :sigh:

The reason I asked is because there are some folks who keep telling me couldnt die because He is God. Thought Id get some more insite, my answers are not good enough.

[WhiteWings]

Ok, I understand. I've read some articles of muslims that the Jesus on the cross was bar/benjesus (or similar name) and the real Jesus died of old age. But I never read an article of a Christian that believes Jesus wasn't really dead.

^KJVMat 12:39-40 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Do they believe in the above mentioned sign?
If yes do they believe Jesus was just pretending to die?

^KJVJoh 19:30-31 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

If "gave up the ghost" doesn't mean "die" what does it mean? What do all the verses about risen mean?
^KJVJoh 19:33  But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

[Beloved Servant]

"Until the day break, and the shadows flee away, I will get me up to the mountain of myrrh, and to the hill of frankincense" (S. of S. 4:6)

[Tony N]

Did Jesus really die? I believe Jesus had to die a real death, dont fully understand but...and in the same vein of thought His death was not a substitute; His death was for us, He payed the ransome, He did not die instead of us, we still have to die.
Heb 9:27  And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment;

Yes, Jesus really did die the day He died and for three days was in unconscious death. He was not playing checkers with the thief on the cross in Paradise while in the grave (not that you believe that!).

Jesus is "God" only in title and only as a divine perfect representation of His God. The title "God" is just that, a title which means "Disposer" or "Subjector."

God made Moses "God" to Pharaoh and Aaron his prophet or mouthpiece. Was Moses really the invisible God who fills heaven and earth? Was Jesus? Yet Jesus was not a mere man but He was "the Man, Christ Jesus." He was the *Christ* or Anointed One. One Who is anointed by their God cannot be that God.

If Christ did not fully die, then our sins were not fully died for. He died so fully that it took His God to rouse Him from death.

[micah7:9]

Did Jesus really die? I believe Jesus had to die a real death, dont fully understand but...and in the same vein of thought His death was not a substitute; His death was for us, He payed the ransome, He did not die instead of us, we still have to die.
Heb 9:27  And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment;

Yes, Jesus really did die the day He died and for three days was in unconscious death. He was not playing checkers with the thief on the cross in Paradise while in the grave (not that you believe that!).

Jesus is "God" only in title and only as a divine perfect representation of His God. The title "God" is just that, a title which means "Disposer" or "Subjector."

God made Moses "God" to Pharaoh and Aaron his prophet or mouthpiece. Was Moses really the invisible God who fills heaven and earth? Was Jesus? Yet Jesus was not a mere man but He was "the Man, Christ Jesus." He was the *Christ* or Anointed One. One Who is anointed by their God cannot be that God.

If Christ did not fully die, then our sins were not fully died for. He died so fully that it took His God to rouse Him from death.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[thinktank]

God became the incarnated son of man, this is a mystery, to all men how a God could become flesh but this is what is written in the bible. It also says

so as a man if he sinned he would die
The soul that sinneth shall die

But Jesus did not sin, and fullfilled the law, but even though he was innocent he was punished for our iniquities and so all sin was laid upon Jesus, so in the sight of father God, on the cross Jesus was the most sinful man that ever lived, for he laid upon himself the sins of the  whole world.
Why have you forsaken me cried Jesus on the cross

That is why it says
It pleased the father to bruise his son

So even though Jesus was God, upon the Earth he was a man and therefore suffered the penalty of sin, which is death.

After the penalty was paid he was now free to be raised from the dead, for he satisfied/fullfilled the penalty
and so his body  and blood become the bread of the world, that we eat in order to be partakers of his sacrifice
At his resurection he was raised from the dead and returned to his former glory as God having sacrificed his human life on the cross.

Everytime we sin, we invoke the penalty of death, but the blood of Jesus washes away that penalty and also a whole lot more.

[jabcat]

God became the incarnated son of man, this is a mystery, to all men how a God could become flesh but this is what is written in the bible. It also says

so as a man if he sinned he would die
The soul that sinneth shall die

But Jesus did not sin, and fullfilled the law, but even though he was innocent he was punished for our iniquities and so all sin was laid upon Jesus, so in the sight of father God, on the cross Jesus was the most sinful man that ever lived, for he laid upon himself the sins of the  whole world.
Why have you forsaken me cried Jesus on the cross

That is why it says
It pleased the father to bruise his son

So even though Jesus was God, upon the Earth he was a man and therefore suffered the penalty of sin, which is death.

After the penalty was paid he was now free to be raised from the dead, for he satisfied/fullfilled the penalty
and so his body  and blood become the bread of the world, that we eat in order to be partakers of his sacrifice
At his resurection he was raised from the dead and returned to his former glory as God having sacrificed his human life on the cross.

Everytime we sin, we invoke the penalty of death, but the blood of Jesus washes away that penalty and also a whole lot more.

Amen

[Tony N]

God became the incarnated son of man, this is a mystery, to all men how a God could become flesh but this is what is written in the bible.

Hi thinktank,
What about Jesus saying after God raised Him from the dead: "I am ascending to My God and your God"? If Jesus was that God how could He ascend to that God?

It also says

so as a man if he sinned he would die
The soul that sinneth shall die

But Jesus did not sin, and fullfilled the law, but even though he was innocent he was punished for our iniquities and so all sin was laid upon Jesus, so in the sight of father God, on the cross Jesus was the most sinful man that ever lived, for he laid upon himself the sins of the  whole world.
Why have you forsaken me cried Jesus on the cross

That is why it says
It pleased the father to bruise his son

So even though Jesus was God, upon the Earth he was a man and therefore suffered the penalty of sin, which is death.

How can Jesus be the God that raised Him from the dead? Also you said: "so in the sight of father God, on the cross Jesus was the most sinful man that ever lived." If Jesus was a sinner in the sight of God, how could He be that God?

After the penalty was paid he was now free to be raised from the dead, for he satisfied/fullfilled the penalty
and so his body  and blood become the bread of the world, that we eat in order to be partakers of his sacrifice
At his resurection he was raised from the dead and returned to his former glory as God having sacrificed his human life on the cross.

Who raised Him from the dead?

Everytime we sin, we invoke the penalty of death, but the blood of Jesus washes away that penalty and also a whole lot more.

Everytime we sin, grace superexceeds. Romans 5:20. Not that we should sin on purpose.

Just curious what you think as to my questions. They are asked not to be causing strife.

[thinktank]

Hello Tony thank you for reading my post

As for your questions

Jesus died on the cross and was 3 days buried in the belly of the Earth, just as Nineveh was stuck in the belly of the whale for 3 days, he could not do anything

But Father God on the other hand was/is alive and so is the Holy Ghost. So the father sends the command and the holy ghost comes upon Jesus and raises him from the dead.

So Jesus says I am ascending to My God and too your God.

This God that Jesus speaks of is not himself but the father, that Jesus said, there is no one greater than the father and even the son is himself subject unto the Father.

Whosever does my will doeth the will of the father also

If you have known me you would also know my father, but because you don't know me, you do not know my father, for I and my father are one

So in essence any one who worships Jesus as God and receives his message also knows his father, so Jesus says ' I am ascending to My God(Father God) and too Your God(Father God)'

Jesus also says

No man has seen the Father but only the son

John verse 37
And the father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape

Genesis 3 verse 8
And they(Adam and Eve) heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day:

Before Abraham was I AM

Genesis 22
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham: and he said, behold, here I am.

Now Father glorify me with thy name with the before the world began

John1
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God

14 And the word was made flesh, and dwelt among us

There are 3 that testify in heaven
The Father, the son, and the Holy Ghost and these three are one.
Epistle John


Some say that Jesus as God is the same being as God the Father

But Revelation proves that they are seperate beings both with unique personalities

John of Patmos saw the lamb of God the lion of the tribe of Judah, the only one worthy to open the books and took it from he that sat upon the throne, the ancient of days.

I hope this makes sense

[Tony N]

Micah wrote:
There are 3 that testify in heaven
The Father, the son, and the Holy Ghost and these three are one.
Epistle John

Tony's reply:
That quotation from 1 John 5:7 is spurious at best and not found in any good Greek texts. It should not be in any bible.

Albert Barnes wrote this concerning 1 Jn.5:7:

I. It is missing in all the earlier Greek manuscripts, for it is found in no Greek manuscript written before the 16th century. Indeed, it is found in only two Greek manuscripts of any age - one the Codex Montfortianus, or Britannicus, written in the beginning of the sixteenth century, and the other the Codex Ravianus, which is a mere transcript of the text, taken partly from the third edition of Stephen's New Testament, and partly from the Complutensian Polyglott. But it is incredible that a genuine passage of the New Testament should be missing in all the early Greek manuscripts.
II. It is missing in the earliest versions, and, indeed, in a large part of the versions of the New Testament which have been made in all former times. It is wanting in both the Syriac versions - one of which was made probably in the first century; in the Coptic, Armenian, Slavonic, Ethiopic, and Arabic.
III. It is never quoted by the Greek fathers in their controversies on the doctrine of the Trinity - a passage which would be so much in point, and which could not have failed to be quoted if it were genuine; and it is not referred to by the Latin fathers until the time of Vigilius, at the end of the 5th century. If the passage were believed to be genuine - nay, if it were known at all to be in existence, and to have any probability in its favor - it is incredible that in all the controversies which occurred in regard to the divine nature, and in all the efforts to define the doctrine of the Trinity, this passage should never have been referred to. But it never was; for it must be plain to anyone who examines the subject with an unbiassed mind, that the passages which are relied on to prove that it was quoted by Athanasius, Cyprian, Augustin, etc., (Wetstein, II., p. 725) are not taken from this place, and are not such as they would have made if they had been acquainted with this passage, and had designed to quote it. IV. The argument against the passage from the external proof is confirmed by internal evidence, which makes it morally certain that it cannot be genuine.

P.S., since Jesus was ascending to His God and ascending to the disciple's God, He, (Jesus) is not God nor is Jesus the disciple's God.
Thanks for your other thoughts.  :bigGrin:

[jabcat]

Rev. 2:8 The Christian Bible (1991)

"...Now the One who is the First and the Last, who was dead and came to Life, says this...."

[Tony N]

Rev. 2:8 The Christian Bible (1991)

"...Now the One who is the First and the Last, who was dead and came to Life, says this...."

:thumbsup:

[thinktank]

Micah wrote:
There are 3 that testify in heaven
The Father, the son, and the Holy Ghost and these three are one.
Epistle John

Tony's reply:
That quotation from 1 John 5:7 is spurious at best and not found in any good Greek texts. It should not be in any bible.

Funny I thought thinktank wrote that
give credit where credit is due, that was written by me

John ' I think you'll find it was written by me'

Holy ghost ' I think you'll find it was written by me'

Jesus ' I'm the word'

Father 'Who's your daddy'


The same book of Romans says
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace?
God forbid.

The grace of Jesus is there to give us time to repent, whereas in the old testament the penalty of adultery would be a stoning for example. If we continue in our sins then we will reap the reward of those sins, such as aging before our time, divorce, jail, poverty, etc etc

But as for the disciples they did not worship Jesus as God, because that would be breaking the commandment

do not make for yourself an idol

If they worshipped the Earthly Jesus of Nazareth, they would be guilty of worshipping the temple of God, or guilty of worshipping mans form, instead of worshipping God in truth and spirit.

but they did believe that he was God and came from heaven

John 17-27
For the father himself loveth you, because you have believed that I came out from God.
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world:again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Peter himself testifies
John
69And we believe and are sure that thou art that christ, the son of the living God


Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me

Johns Gospel
I am the living bread that came down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof and not die

Many of his disciples murmured

61does this offend you?
62 what if and if you shall see the son of man ascend up where he was before?

Sometimes Jesus would reveal himself as the Son of God

Johns Gospel

Dost thou believe on the son of God?
36 He answered who is he lord that I might believe on him?
37Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said Lord I believe. And he worshipped him

Is it important to believe that Jesus was God?
John
23 That all men should honour the Father. He that honoureth not the son honoureth not the Father which has sent him

[Nathan]

Tony's reply:
That quotation from 1 John 5:7 is spurious at best and not found in any good Greek texts. It should not be in any bible.

This has been a crazy day . . .on one thread, there is an emphasis on the fact that ALL Scripture is inspired by God . . .then on another thread . .we're deciding not all of it was after all???

Interesting.

Oh, and Tony, to answer one of your questions pertaining to how can God resurrect himself, call himself his beloved son and so on . . .

It's dimensional.  We state this all the time that our spirit is to be in dominion over our flesh.  we have conversations going on inside our heads all the time . . . our spirit conversing with our flesh???  I think so anyway.  So beings we are created after his likeness, we also have many of the Father's mannerisms as well. 

Just as my spirit speaks to my flesh, God the Father speaks to the Son . . .and yet they still are "one". 

[jabcat]

Just a clarification then from my perspective.  If there's something in a translation that's proven to be spurious, IMO, that's much different than picking and choosing what we believe or not depending on what feels right or makes sense to my carnal mind.  (Not saying you do that Nathan, but I believe some do).  Again though, clarifying - If there's sufficiently supported evidence that something was obviously added or changed, to say, fit a translator's particular doctrinal perspective, then I wouldn't consider that scripture, so obviously not inspired.

OTOH, if God said in the OT to do something that today, in 2010, may offend my "sensibilities" or my preconception of "who God is", then I don't need to say "well, that doesn't fit what I believe, so it must be only a man-made thought and not the God I know", then IMO, that's a slippery slope with no end but the bottom (destruction).  And I'm afraid there be many who find it.  My  :2c:.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Exactly..... :thumbsup:

[Nathan]

I guess I'm not understanding what difference it would make if you were to throw that verse out or keep it in.  All it's doing is stating what other passages have also stated.  Jesus stated himself, if you've seen me, you've seen the Father.  His prayer for us was that we be one as he is one with the Father . . .so keep it, or throw it out, it won't matter much because there are other witnesses testifying the same message.  Jesus, His Spirit, and the Father is God.  Grammer intended.

[micah7:9]

Micah wrote:
There are 3 that testify in heaven
The Father, the son, and the Holy Ghost and these three are one.
Epistle John

Tony's reply:
That quotation from 1 John 5:7 is spurious at best and not found in any good Greek texts. It should not be in any bible.

Albert Barnes wrote this concerning 1 Jn.5:7:

I. It is missing in all the earlier Greek manuscripts, for it is found in no Greek manuscript written before the 16th century. Indeed, it is found in only two Greek manuscripts of any age - one the Codex Montfortianus, or Britannicus, written in the beginning of the sixteenth century, and the other the Codex Ravianus, which is a mere transcript of the text, taken partly from the third edition of Stephen's New Testament, and partly from the Complutensian Polyglott. But it is incredible that a genuine passage of the New Testament should be missing in all the early Greek manuscripts.
II. It is missing in the earliest versions, and, indeed, in a large part of the versions of the New Testament which have been made in all former times. It is wanting in both the Syriac versions - one of which was made probably in the first century; in the Coptic, Armenian, Slavonic, Ethiopic, and Arabic.
III. It is never quoted by the Greek fathers in their controversies on the doctrine of the Trinity - a passage which would be so much in point, and which could not have failed to be quoted if it were genuine; and it is not referred to by the Latin fathers until the time of Vigilius, at the end of the 5th century. If the passage were believed to be genuine - nay, if it were known at all to be in existence, and to have any probability in its favor - it is incredible that in all the controversies which occurred in regard to the divine nature, and in all the efforts to define the doctrine of the Trinity, this passage should never have been referred to. But it never was; for it must be plain to anyone who examines the subject with an unbiassed mind, that the passages which are relied on to prove that it was quoted by Athanasius, Cyprian, Augustin, etc., (Wetstein, II., p. 725) are not taken from this place, and are not such as they would have made if they had been acquainted with this passage, and had designed to quote it. IV. The argument against the passage from the external proof is confirmed by internal evidence, which makes it morally certain that it cannot be genuine.

P.S., since Jesus was ascending to His God and ascending to the disciple's God, He, (Jesus) is not God nor is Jesus the disciple's God.
Thanks for your other thoughts.  :bigGrin:

MICAH DID NOT POST THE ABOVE STATEMENT FROM LITTLE JOHN, HE KNOWS BETTER!