The hymns used in church are a lot more inclusive than the doctrines

[Universalist Catholic]

Christmas Hymns:
Joy to the World
Hark the Herald Angels sing
God Rest ye Merry Gentlemen
O come all ye faithful
Good Christian men Rejoice

Easter Hymns:
Jesus Christ is Risen today
At the Lambs high feast
The Strife is O'er
Alleluia Alleluia let the holy anthem rise
Come ye faithful raise the strain
Christ the Lord is Risen today

All joyful hymns.

I dont recall too many hymns about hell unless it speaks about deliverance.
"From depth of hell thy people save" (O come O come Emmanuel)
"Death of Death and Hells destruction" (Guide me O thou great Jehovah)
"He closed the Yawning gates of Hell"(The strife is O'er.)
"Hells fierce powers beneath thee lie"(At the lambs high feast)
"That the power of Hell may vanguish"(Let all mortal flesh keep silence)
"To be our redeemer from death hell and sin"(A virgin most pure)
"If you stand before the powers of hell and death is at your side, know that I am with you" (Be not afraid)

The darkest hymns used in the Churches are usually regarding the passion, Lent or the fall of man:
Wondrous Love
O Sacred Head
Behold the Wood
This is the truth sent from above
Coventry Carol

[uptoolate]

Here I am Lord

I, the Lord of sea and sky,
I have heard My people cry.
All who dwell in dark and sin,
My hand will save.

I who made the stars of night,
I will make their darkness bright.
Who will bear My light to them?
Whom shall I send?

Here I am Lord, Is it I Lord?
I have heard You calling in the night.
I will go Lord, if You lead me.
I will hold Your people in my heart.

I, the Lord of snow and rain,
I have born my peoples pain.
I have wept for love of them, They turn away.
I will break their hearts of stone,
Give them hearts for love alone.
I will speak My word to them,
Whom shall I send?

Here I am Lord, Is it I Lord?
I have heard You calling in the night.
I will go Lord, if You lead me.
I will hold Your people in my heart.

I, the Lord of wind and flame,
I will tend the poor and lame.
I will set a feast for them,
My hand will save
Finest bread I will provide,
Till their hearts be satisfied.
I will give My life to them,
Whom shall I send?

Here I am Lord, Is it I Lord?
I have heard You calling in the night.
I will go Lord, if You lead me.
I will hold Your people in my heart.



Words: Daniel L Schutte

[WhiteWings]

Clear. Case closed :laughing7:

ET :thumbdown: UR :thumbsup:

[Molly]

Joy to the World , the Lord is come!
Let earth receive her King;
Let every heart prepare Him room,
And Heaven and nature sing,
And Heaven and nature sing,
And Heaven, and Heaven, and nature sing.

Joy to the World, the Savior reigns!
Let men their songs employ;
While fields and floods, rocks, hills and plains
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat, repeat, the sounding joy.

No more let sins and sorrows grow,
Nor thorns infest the ground;
He comes to make His blessings flow
Far as the curse is found,
Far as the curse is found,
Far as, far as, the curse is found.

He rules the world with truth and grace,
And makes the nations prove
The glories of His righteousness,
And wonders of His love,
And wonders of His love,
And wonders, wonders, of His love.



http://www.carols.org.uk/ba27-joy-to-the-world.htm

[legoman]

I attend a Catholic church with my wife (she's Catholic, I'm not).  I even play piano there.  The priest is very focused on God's love, so I enjoy his sermons (I wonder if he is UR).

I always enjoy the parts of mass (which we sing), as they contain some UR favorites:

"Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father,
Lord God, Lamb of God,
you take away the sin of the world:  have mercy on us"

and

"Lord, by your cross and resurrection, you have set us free. You are the Savior of the World."

[WhiteWings]

I attend a Catholic church with my wife (she's Catholic, I'm not).  I even play piano there.  The priest is very focused on God's love, so I enjoy his sermons (I wonder if he is UR).

I think hell is a difficult subject for most ETs. Some find eternal torture loving, just and glorifying. I think many Catholics have big problems with such views. Priests are humans to so they have the same emotions/thoughts.
There are quotes from some high ranking Catholics that point to UR or at least not severe torture.
Maybe they still believe in ET stuff but just don't preach it because it scares away people. And that cost money.

[legoman]

I attend a Catholic church with my wife (she's Catholic, I'm not).  I even play piano there.  The priest is very focused on God's love, so I enjoy his sermons (I wonder if he is UR).

I think hell is a difficult subject for most ETs. Some find eternal torture loving, just and glorifying. I think many Catholics have big problems with such views. Priests are humans to so they have the same emotions/thoughts.
There are quotes from some high ranking Catholics that point to UR or at least not severe torture.
Maybe they still believe in ET stuff but just don't preach it because it scares away people. And that cost money.

You should hear my priest's sermons on "hell" fire.  He always comments about how "vatican II" (I don't understand the whole Catholic history thing) used the hellfire and brimstone method of teaching.   Then he went on to explain what the fire and brimstone is really talking about.  Its the fire of God we experience to refine us and purge us into children of God so we can bring His love to the whole world.  I was shocked, but it was a great message.

He's always talking about how God wants to bring all people into His family, and he kind of drops hints that it maybe just takes some people a little longer than others.

[WhiteWings]

Then he went on to explain what the fire and brimstone is really talking about.  Its the fire of God we experience to refine us and purge us into children of God so we can bring His love to the whole world.  I was shocked, but it was a great message.

That sounds like purgatory.

He's always talking about how God wants to bring all people into His family, and he kind of drops hints that it maybe just takes some people a little longer than others.

Large scale purgatory.
Vatican 2.0 sounds like  a beta version of UR 1.0  :winkgrin:

Maybe this is interesting to read?
As you can see from Willies reply there are mixed opinions....

[WhiteWings]

Topic: The hymns used in church are a lot more inclusive than the doctrines

I don't know how old the hymes are but according to a book written in 1899 the ET views during that time were more severe then those of Augustine.

Augustine Less Severe Than Modern Orthodoxy.

Augustine, however, held the penalties of sin in a much milder form than do his degenerate theological descendants in modern times. He teaches that the lost still retain goodness,--too valuable to be destroyed, and on that account the worst are not in absolute evil, but only in a lower degree of good. "Grief for lost good in a state of punishment is a witness of a good nature. For he who grieves for the lost peace for his nature, grieves for it by means of some remains of peace, by which it is caused that nature should be friendly to itself." He taught that while unbaptized children must be damned in a Gehenna of fire, their torments would be light ( levissima ) compared with the torment of other sinners, and that their condition would be far preferable to non-existence, and so on the whole a blessing. In a limbus infantum they would only receive a mitissima damnatio.
.........
Though he said the church "detested" it, he kindly added: "They who believe this, and yet are Catholics, seem to me to be deceived by a certain human tenderness," and he urged Jerome to continue to translate Origen for the benefit of the African church!

[legoman]

Then he went on to explain what the fire and brimstone is really talking about.  Its the fire of God we experience to refine us and purge us into children of God so we can bring His love to the whole world.  I was shocked, but it was a great message.

That sounds like purgatory.

He's always talking about how God wants to bring all people into His family, and he kind of drops hints that it maybe just takes some people a little longer than others.

Large scale purgatory.
Vatican 2.0 sounds like  a beta version of UR 1.0  :winkgrin:

Maybe this is interesting to read?
As you can see from Willies reply there are mixed opinions....

Yes maybe large scale purgatory... not sure.  BTW we are already past vatican 2 so I guess we are in vatican 3.0 now...  :winkgrin:

Have a great weekend WW...

[Chris]

I've notices the same things even when listening to Christian radio. I find myself asking myself if they actually believe what they sing about and wonder why they sing it if they don't.

[Universalist Catholic]

I am the bread of life
He who comes to me shall not hunger
He who believes in me shall not thirst
No one can come to me
Unless the father beckons


I used to always wonder about the blue part when they sang that song in church.  According to most mainstream theology, people choose Christ, not Christ Chooses them.  If one had not learned and was raised on the Hellfire teachings, that sounds almost like Calvinism.

[LS]

I attend a Catholic church with my wife (she's Catholic, I'm not).  I even play piano there.  The priest is very focused on God's love, so I enjoy his sermons (I wonder if he is UR).

I think hell is a difficult subject for most ETs. Some find eternal torture loving, just and glorifying. I think many Catholics have big problems with such views. Priests are humans to so they have the same emotions/thoughts.
There are quotes from some high ranking Catholics that point to UR or at least not severe torture.
Maybe they still believe in ET stuff but just don't preach it because it scares away people. And that cost money.

I am a lifelong Catholic and this is just my own experience. But I've never heard a "fire & brimstone" sermon, and have only heard two or three sermons ever that discuss the topic of hell.

I don't think it's because of the reasons you all are assuming, though.  "Hell" and the belief in its existence is the official teaching of the Catholic church.  However, Catholics don't spend a lot of time speculating on exactly what it is - it may be a fire & brimstone type place or it may more simply (and in a way, more awfully) be never-ending life with no hope, completely separated from God's presence.  Catholics also don't spend time speculating on how many are saved - many or few.  It is considered a mystery only God knows and it is simply trusted that God is the just & merciful judge.

I see people here often point out that hell isn't a focus of teaching in the NT, and I agree (although I think that not all are saved is touched on by Jesus and all NT writers).  That is the pattern I've seen in the Catholic church as well; if it isn't the focus of the Bible, it also isn't the focus of sermons or the mass. In my experience, sermons tend to be applications of scripture readings in our daily lives.  I was rather shocked to learn that other churches focus so much on the fire & brimstone teachings.

:2c:

edited to add: Here is the official teaching:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, 'eternal fire.' The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" (CCC 1035).

[thinktank]

Interesting. I think though that the catholic church is open to change concerning hell. Already seen quotes of the pope saying different things about what hell is. Maybe they'll change thier doctrine soon.

Bets on bets on who will change their doctrine first

Catholic church
Protestant churches
Unorthodox church

[LS]

Interesting. I think though that the catholic church is open to change concerning hell. Already seen quotes of the pope saying different things about what hell is. Maybe they'll change thier doctrine soon.

Bets on bets on who will change their doctrine first

Catholic church
Protestant churches
Unorthodox church

While there are individual Catholics who believe in UR, I don't think the Catholic church itself is anywhere near changing its teaching or doctrine. I really don't know where people get the idea, to be honest; the very few quotes I've seen so far were way out of context.

[Universalist Catholic]

It makes you wonder if most people really do believe in Universalists deep down, but have not officially declared belief in Universal Salvation.  Interestingly, I have found the Cafeteria Christians to be a lot more Christlike than those Orthodox Christians.  However it seems like most Christians are Cafeteria Christians, or Christians in name only.  However I do applaud those people for thinking on their own and not letting themselves being seduced by those horrible lies of the church, despite needing to learn a little more scripture. 

[shawn]

It makes you wonder if most people really do believe in Universalists deep down, but have not officially declared belief in Universal Salvation.  Interestingly, I have found the Cafeteria Christians to be a lot more Christlike than those Orthodox Christians.  However it seems like most Christians are Cafeteria Christians, or Christians in name only.  However I do applaud those people for thinking on their own and not letting themselves being seduced by those horrible lies of the church, despite needing to learn a little more scripture. 

There is alot of fear about not believing ET.  There is fear about being a heretic.  There is fear about going against the grain.  There is fear that all these pastors, believers and churches can't be wrong.  If you believe in UR then maybe you are just listening to the voices you want to hear and God will blame you and burn you for eternity.  The spiritual abuse runs deep.  So, believers have calloused their hearts and stopped listening to that voice that tells them "this can't be right".

[thinktank]

wise words.  :thumbsup: