Its frustrating being a Christian Universalist in a traditionalist world

[Universalist Catholic]

Well, Im no bible scholar, so its really difficult to put up a debate with those who object to Universal Salvation.  On youtube, any video about Universal Salvation is always given nasty feedback by some traditionalist making the same claims over and over again(aionian life vs. aionian punishment, no eternal hell no need to take sin seriously, the story of the rich man and Lazarus, along with the proposition that bible passages about universal restoration are taken out of context, and the itching of ears).  Not to mention the way people will go about namecalling anyone who upholds universal restoration, and then call themselves better than everyone else, when in fact they are equal.  However, any Evangelical, Protestant or Catholic video gets highly praised.  Catholics get the most praise, along with the same "True Church" stuff, and their "infallible leaders".  The way the Evangelicals place this larger importance on the doctrine of Hell than any other "Christian" doctrine.  The way they get all defensive against anyone who says anything about the "Well to hell" hoax, Bill Weise, Mary Baxter, or Maurice Rawlings "To hell and Back" being fake.  How on Amazon, any books about Universalism are always given bad reviews by someone who does not open their heart to the truth, but prefers the letter over the spirit.  Yet they so often spam anything promoting Universalism in favor for this wrathful "gospel", but anything Catholic, no matter what is always given good reviews.  On Yahoo Answers, Catholics and Protestants are always fighting.  Catholics always get high ratings for their "True Church" agenda.  However if anyone criticized catholicism, thumbs down.  Any pro-hell answer is always thumbs upped.  The best answer is always the cruelest.  The way most of the sources about Church history are sensored by Catholic approved opinion, and not historical truth.  The way many of the ET churches makes themselves out to be victims when one refuses to listen to them, does not join them or does not agree with them, in order to make themselves the persecuted people. 

But I remember that our carnal instincts is to get praised by the world, and to go with the crowd.  However, the spirit says no, go with the word.  The bible said the world would hate us.  Thats pretty evident.  However those ET churches are all glorified and praised by the world.  But we do not seek praise from the world.  In this case, its best to keep my cool, despite the fact that I have been guilty of starting arguments with Born again Christians, giving nicnames to every traditionalist denomination, and trying to make fun of them.  But the only thing that does is lets us sink to their level, and makes us just as bad

[Beloved Servant]

Yes, you are in the world but not of it.

[Nathan]

I can greatly relate to you in this as well.  The thing for me is to simply share what I'm seeing to those who are receptive.  This is a spiritual awakening God is bringing to this earth and those that embrace all things, even spiritual things, through their reasoning minds will not be able to see the deep things you're seeing. 

It reminds me of the passage that speaks about the fruit is the evidence that will tell you who is and who isn't a disciple of Christ.  Rejection is a fruit.  Hostility is a fruit.  Condemnation is a fruit.  Blindness is a fruit.  But none are fruits of Christ.

I personally just had a 3 hour conversation with my very church-minded Dad.  He raised me in church.  I've become a pastor of a church.  My Mom embraces it and has even been a council memeber.  My Dad won't attend it at all.  Jesus did say he didn't come to bring peace but instead, separation. 

Isn't that interesting?  The Prince of Peace brings hostility.  But hostility is not his message.  Freedom is his message, hostility is what manifests when freedom clashes with religion.  But it's necessary due to the nature of man.  Jesus didn't come just to shake things up.  He came to bring resurrection life to us, and that shakes things up.  But it's not the shaking he's focused on, it's the end result.  And that is, we are being resurrected into Him.  "There's" your rapture.

The language is changing in our message.  The emphasis is changing in our language.  This is just the beginning.  People have become bound by their own idols.  It's really the Egyptian bondage all over again.  But this time, the plagues are coming to the church, because the church has enslaved God's people and has evoked forced labor upon them.

The very things the church idolizes the most, are the same things God is going to mulitply to the point that it becomes a curse to them, just as we saw with the 10 plagues of Egypt.  Every one of those plagues were actually objects the Egyptians worshiped.

Freedom is coming, make no mistake.  We are the pioneers of this.  We're experiencing the first fruits of it.  But there are many who are still bound by their own minds that will need a more violent experience before freedom manifests in them.  How that will come, and what form it will come in, I think, is up to the individual.  But the sword "is" protuding from the mouth of Christ.  The Word is being spoken and it's going to tear down every man made dam until every knee is bowing, by choice, not due to aggressional submission.

Pursue the light within you and you will be the illumination to those around you.

[Universalist Catholic]

That is very true stuff.  I have been taken psychology, and many people can only see things through their own biases.  According to Maslofs theory on motivation, physiological needs are first, such as hunger, then safety, then love.  Many are stuck in the psychological stage of safety and cannot move onto the love stage, which is what Jesus favored the most.  Safety stage being the soul winning, saving everyone stage.  And we know those people are not the most loving. 

[chuckt]

Very frustrating only when you think you can change other minds or if you seek to see immediate results.

after spending 3 yrs on a ""orthodox"" forum, im done, i feel spiritually drained.i feel dirty.

unless otherwise called i will not post on those type forums any longer....

Blessings
chuckt

[Beloved Servant]

2 Timothy 4:3

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

[Nathan]

Great passage Beloved Servant.  The thing about religious thinking is that you see a bountiful amount of twisting when it comes to biblical application.  I have been told by family members that I'm the one guilty of scratching my religious itch.  Because I project the possibility that the spiritual principle may have more benefit than the literal application, they are quick to point and pronounce that instead of traditional thinking being deceived by infiltraitors in the church, it is I who have turned away from their truth and toward what deceives my mind.

It becomes a religious argument all over again.

[Syndicated]

The very things the church idolizes the most, are the same things God is going to mulitply to the point that it becomes a curse to them, just as we saw with the 10 plagues of Egypt.  Every one of those plagues were actually objects the Egyptians worshiped.

I remember the plagues of Egypt, but I was not aware that they worshipped the objects OF the plagues before hand.  Where is that found?

I somewhat agree with the fact that God will make the very things that men 'idolize' their 'curse'... I see it more as He will make it consume them to the point that it will be their ultimate downfall, leading to their 'death' so that they may find Him...

1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.

[Nathan]

I don't think you're going to find a passage in Scripture that says "Because these things were held in highest esteem by  the Egyptians, those are the things God plagued them with".  The first time "I" personally learned of it came through a course I was in when I went through the school of ministry.  I was floored that these kinds of things were not preached from pulpits.  I had to pay $90 for the class to hear about it.  But it did cause me to question why don't we hear more about those kinds of things.  It's a pattern and a principle of how God does operate with man.

If we embrace something that has a negative affect with Him, in his love, he gives us what we love most until we're sick of it and become enslaved to it.  I like how you stated how you see it He will make it consume them to the point that it will be their ultimate downfall, leading to their 'death' so that they may find Him

That's exactly what he did, does and continues to do.  It's all for the purpose of us turning back to him, not so he can control us, but so he can free us.

[Universalist Catholic]

2 Timothy 4:3

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Funny thing is the fundies always apply that scripture to anyone who disagrees with their far right eternal hell for everyone except them theology.

[Nathan]

Yeah, everyone applies Scripture to everyone else.  If only we'd apply it to the one person it's actually aimed at . . .the man in me.  We have the most effective weapon ever known to man and our use of it is as any other weapon, to destroy what we deem to be false doctrines in others when I think the actual purpose for this weapon was to break bondages off of those imprisoned within them "selves".  And to resurrect to life those who are walking in death. 

Yet it seems we mostly tend to continue to attempt to use it to bring "the other guy" to a place where we can manipulate them to agree with us that they are wrong.  May I become more effective to stab others to life rather than use my piercing words to stab them to death.

[reFORMer]

There is one simple rule for orthodox exegesis of Scripture:  Whatever is written was written for other people at another time and another place.  There is a second rule like unto the first if anything remains seeming to apply to you:  You have misinterpreted Scripture.

[Beloved Servant]

2 Timothy 4:3

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Funny thing is the fundies always apply that scripture to anyone who disagrees with their far right eternal hell for everyone except them theology.

Interesting and intriguing.
In my adult years, I've had so little contact with man's religion that this sort of reply is interesting and intriguing.
But how true is Timothy to ears of today.

[fire walker]

Funny thing is the fundies always apply that scripture to anyone who disagrees with their far right eternal hell for everyone except them theology.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That is always the same, religion hasn't changed one bit, just look at preachers like Fred Phelps who preaches that the whole world and everybody in it BUT him and his immediate Church are going to be tormented in a fiery hell for all eternity and it is too late for Godly sorrow to even work repentance not to be repented of. So Fred knows that Gods work through the use of Godly sorrow in someones life is too weak to work repentance? It sure appears that this is what he is preaching along with countless other blind preachers who preach about hell fire and damnation. Repentance is not a work of man like that which gives room for boasting.  Sometimes, I wonder, yet I am in doubt and it doesn't appear that Fred and other funamentalist preachers know that ?

Scripture states very clearly that it is sin man is delivered from, no where does the scriptures say Jesus came to deliver men from hell, no it says he came to deliver men from their sins and not only their own, yet even more from the sins of the whole world as the whole world shall ultimately be delivered up.   Hell is a very mistranslated word and even at that no where in scripture are the words eternal and hell found together.

So with this I have not been frustrated with the traditionalists, no, instead I've always received an inner rest and peacefulness from having received a universalist acceptence of the Good News Gospel of Christ that the Spirit convicts  us of our sin, it is man who persecutes us for what is most times perceived to be sin
in their own eyes, yet even so in Christ there is no condemnation.

Peace,
Fire Walker