The WILL of GOD... Can it be "thwarted" by men?

[jabcat]

This is A.E. Knoch's  take on the last part of 7 and first part of 8.  From the Concordant Commentary;

15 This is the experience of one who does not realize his death to sin and the law, but who is endeavoring to keep the letter of the law. He finds that the law of sin in his members is far more potent than the law of God which appeals to his mind. He wants to do good; but cannot. He does things which he hates to do, hence charges his misery to the indwelling sin which has taken possession of his body. He is a wretched captive. This will be the experience of all who make an earnest effort to please God by obeying the letter of that law which was broken even before it reached the people (Ex.32:19) .

24 What is the answer to this wretched man's cry? It is grace. There is no other deliverance possible. This brings us back to where this disgression began, the reign of Grace at the end of the fifth chapter. It is only as we recognize the imperial sway of Grace, putting us beyond all possibility of condemnation, whether we sin or not, that we have real liberty and power sufficient to effect not only what was demanded by the law, but those higher duties which far transcend the righteous requirements of Sinai. Then we will not be wretched and self occupied, but happy and exulting in God, in Whose favor we are basking, and Whose delight we are, in Christ.

1 Condemnation is utterly out of the question for all in Christ Jesus. This is infinitely more than the atonement or shelter provided for sin by the sacrifices offered under the law. It is far beyond the pardon, or forgiveness, contained in the proclamation of the kingdom. The atonement needed to be renewed year by year, the pardon might be recalled, but the justification we have in Christ Jesus is nothing less than God's righteousness, which is absolutely inviolable. It was not secured by any act of ours and cannot be marred by aught that we can do. Sin only enhances the graciousness of it, but cannot sully or impair it.

2 The spirit's law of life, in Christ Jesus, is the opposite of the law of Sinai. That said: Obey, and live; disobey, and die. The spirit's law imparts life for the eons as God's gracious gift, apart from obedience or disobedience.

4 We do not fulfill the law in its letter. Grace leads us to act far beyond its spirit. Its just requirements, love to God and man, are fulfilled only by those who walk in spirit.

5 The flesh is not able to be subject to God's law. It is useless to try to train it to please Him. We are not justified in flesh. It is only in spirit that we can count ourselves as beyond all condemnation. The flesh is after the things of flesh and leads to death. But the spirit is concerned with spiritual things and makes for life and peace.

9 All who believe Him are indwelt by God's Spirit. Christ, by His Spirit, is in us. Consequently, our spirit is life, yet our body, being absolutely unresponsive to their presence is death. Thus, while we have but one body, it is the home of three spirits— God's Spirit, Christ's Spirit, and our spirit. As a result the spiritual force at our disposal is far greater than the flesh. Our own spirit is the seat of our new life, because of righteousness. Christ's Spirit gives us communion with Him. God's Spirit gives us power over our dead bodies, just as in the case of Christ, He roused His body from among the dead. He is able to vivify these death-doomed bodies, so that they respond to the dictates of the spirit.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul said no where was there a verse that said God tempted anyone, I just presented one that I had forgotten about but it does exist and cannot be ignored.

I hear ya, I would like to get to the bottom of things too, so I get what your saying.

I am not ignoring them, I just know that the CLV in particular doesn't even use the word tempt or any variation of it and the YLT uses it less than some others might.



G1598  ekpeirazo  ek-pi-rad'-zo

from G1537 and G3985;

to test thoroughly:--tempt.



G3985  peirazo  pi-rad'-zo

from G3984;

to test (objectively), i.e. endeavor, scrutinize, entice, discipline:--assay,
examine, go about, prove, tempt(-er), try.


And then in James 1:13 we have two variations in the ancient greek that are tied to the same strongs definitions.

peirazomai  peirazomenos


In the old testament

psalms 78:56 we have the use of "nacah"

H5254  nacah  naw-saw'

a primitive root;

to test; by implication, to attempt:--adventure, assay, prove, tempt, try.


In that verse it appears to say  "attempt to provoke"

In the case of abraham it seems to be more of a test.


The use of the word gives different implications, but those implications will not go against the character of God.  If Gods character is good, then we certainly must discover the things God would not do in order to know what good character does.

I believe the idea that  "God does whatever he wants, therefore whatever God does is good"  misses the point that if we cannot determine what good things do, then you can make the case for God doing absolutely anything our minds can come up with.

In fact I believe some do that without realizing it about God lying.  Some say God can lie, he just chooses not too.  That opens the door to be able to contemplate that God could lie at some point.   But, God abolutely cannot lie, God does not have a choice.

When we actually learn there are things God absolutely cannot do,  we then are on the path to being able to resolve these difficulties without rationalizations that can be applied to any action imaginable.

[Theo Book]

:cloud9: I shared it before, but this is what He showed me concerning our will vs. His will.

I saw myself from above driving, constrained by the element of time. God was above, not constrained by time, but instead seeing the end from the beginning.

So when He saw me make a wrong turn, He placed a roadblock or other diversion in my path to make me turn the way He desired.

To me, constrained by time, it appeared that I was making the choices, but in reality, He was "stacking the deck".  :bigGrin: Blessings.....

That does not deal with the issue, it avoids it. The issue is NOT whether one perseives himself as making choices he is not making; the issue is whether God is making us make bad choices, so his mercy and grace can abound.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

As you can see, scripture tells us a very different story. Sin does NOT control us, yet some Christians are very much captivated in sin. It is NOT God who makes us sin so grace may abound, it is MEN who make bad choices.

[jabcat]

Behold, we count them happy which endure. You have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.   James 5:11
 

[chuckt]

Chuck said, God does NOT solitate or intice us to sin.

PERIOD.

God put the serpent and the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and said, "thou shalt not eat".   Isn't that a type of temptation?

Put your 2 year old in a room full of toys and tell it not to touch the doll or the car and see what happens.

er um you are comparing God with men friend.

the reason God did what he did was...LEAST WE FORGET...to SAVE ALL mankind

dont we see some who teach God predistined billions to persish, because of the ""serpent seed"" doctrine?
either God did what he did to save ALL mankind or to have billions perish.......

(((( Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! )))

NOW...if you put your 2 yr old in a room and tell them not to touch, who is the one tempting them? you? or are you just the law giver??

this is why paul could say the ""law is good""

bottom line, we are the creation, and God did what he did for a reason that flows from LOVE not ""evil""

thats it for me in this thread, LOVE YOU GUYS!!

peace
chuck

[CHB]

When we actually learn there are things God absolutely cannot do,  we then are on the path to being able to resolve these difficulties without rationalizations that can be applied to any action imaginable.

Wow!!! If there are things that God cannot do then how can we even think that we can do anything? Paul, this is GOD we are talking about.

Now, I must challenge you to show me a verse that states that God cannot lie, please.

CHB

[Zeek]

Titus 1:2

[WhiteWings]

Wow!!! If there are things that God cannot do then how can we even think that we can do anything? Paul, this is GOD we are talking about.

Now, I must challenge you to show me a verse that states that God cannot lie, please.

I think you already mentioned one of the things God can't do.
Lie.
Neither can He change or sin. And there are more.

[Beloved Servant]

Perhaps, more than meets the eye has been nailed to the Cross.

[CHB]

Chuck said, God does NOT solitate or intice us to sin.

PERIOD.

God put the serpent and the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and said, "thou shalt not eat".   Isn't that a type of temptation?

Put your 2 year old in a room full of toys and tell it not to touch the doll or the car and see what happens.

er um you are comparing God with men friend.

the reason God did what he did was...LEAST WE FORGET...to SAVE ALL mankind

dont we see some who teach God predistined billions to persish, because of the ""serpent seed"" doctrine?
either God did what he did to save ALL mankind or to have billions perish.......

(((( Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! )))

NOW...if you put your 2 yr old in a room and tell them not to touch, who is the one tempting them? you? or are you just the law giver??

this is why paul could say the ""law is good""

bottom line, we are the creation, and God did what he did for a reason that flows from LOVE not ""evil""

thats it for me in this thread, LOVE YOU GUYS!!

peace
chuck

Hi Chuck,

I didn't mean to offend you, am so sorry if I did.  :mshock:

I was just using the 2 year old as an example to show how one can be tempted because Adam and Eve were but children, babies are more like it.  I understand that all of this was to save the world, also I think it was to teach us good and evil.  (Rom. 1:20) For the invisable things OF HIM FROM THE CREATION OF THE WORLD are clearly seen, being UNDERSTOOD BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE, EVEN HIS ETERNAL POWER AND GODHEAD.

CHB

[chuckt]

Hi Chuck,

I didn't mean to offend you, am so sorry if I did.  :mshock:

I was just using the 2 year old as an example to show how one can be tempted because Adam and Eve were but children, babies are more like it.  I understand that all of this was to save the world, also I think it was to teach us good and evil.  (Rom. 1:20) For the invisable things OF HIM FROM THE CREATION OF THE WORLD are clearly seen, being UNDERSTOOD BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE, EVEN HIS ETERNAL POWER AND GODHEAD.

CHB

nope you didnt offend at all, i still have carmitis  :wink2:

i do agree adam and eve were like children.

i wonder, did they actually even know ""good""  isnt that what this is all about?

reminds me of:

Hbr 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

God bless
chuckt

[CHB]

Titus 1:2

Thanks Zeek. I found another one in (2Tim. 2:13) If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF.

I think there is more to this than meets the eye.
(Deut. 23:19) God IS NOT A MAN, that he SHOULD LIE; neither the Son of man, that he should REPENT; hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good.

To me, it just sounds really degrading to God to say there are things he cannot do.  If God could lie do you think he would?

CHB

[WhiteWings]

Put your 2 year old in a room full of toys and tell it not to touch the doll or the car and see what happens.

.... after you put in a serpent in the same room.
I seems Adam and Eve resisted temptation until the serpent came along.

I'm curious if the serpent asked permission to God just as he did before tempting Job.

[WhiteWings]

To me, it just sounds really degrading to God to say there are things he cannot do.  If God could lie do you think he would?

Doesn't even the ability to lie take a way a bit of His holiness?

[CHB]

Here is how the CLNT has this verse.
Titus 1:2 in expectation of life eonian, which God, Who DOES not lie, promises before times eonian,


(2Tim. 2:13) if we are disbelieving, He is remaining faithful -- He cannot disown Himself."

It is hard to imagine that there are things that God CANNOT do, it sounds more reasonable to say he has chosen not to. He just don't, not that he cannot.

How many of you have given these things this much thought before? I know I haven't. Sure I have thought about them but I think it is good to get oposite opinions on things, it makes me start digging more.   

CHB

[CHB]

Put your 2 year old in a room full of toys and tell it not to touch the doll or the car and see what happens.

.... after you put in a serpent in the same room.
I seems Adam and Eve resisted temptation until the serpent came along.

Have you ever observed a child after telling it not to do something? It will try it's best to do what you told it not to do, even if what it is told not to do hasn't even intrested the child before. It makes it more inticing when told not to do something.

I'm curious if the serpent asked permission to God just as he did before tempting Job.

It doesn't say but couldn't God have stopped the serpent before he tempted Eve?

CHB

[CHB]

To me, it just sounds really degrading to God to say there are things he cannot do.  If God could lie do you think he would?

Doesn't even the ability to lie take a way a bit of His holiness?

I don't think so but if he did it would. Not having the ability to lie takes away a bit of his power don't you think?

CHB

[WhiteWings]

To me, it just sounds really degrading to God to say there are things he cannot do.  If God could lie do you think he would?

Doesn't even the ability to lie take a way a bit of His holiness?

I don't think so but if he did it would. Not having the ability to lie takes away a bit of his power don't you think?

Dunno. Isn't the ability to lie a little seed of evil?????

[Nathan]

It's so difficult to reason the vastness of God's nature when all each of us really have is just  a dim glimpse through invisible faith to work with.  If Jesus is the Way, the TRUTH and the Light . . .how can he then mislead us?  How can he then speak to us lies?  And how can he become our darkness?  The "Way" can not lead a direction that it is not already.  The TRUTH can not speak things which it is not.  And beings that a lie is the opposite of truth, then it's impossible for Truth to speak a lie.  For what Truth speaks, everything "becomes".  I am not a lie.  I am everything Christ has pronounced me to be.  My head may not comprehend the majority of that, but when in submission, I become transformed by what has been spoken.  

And LIGHT can not be anything less than what it is.  It is not "a" light among many lights, it is "the" light from which other light births from.  So when light comes to me, it births light in me.  But when versions of light, interpretations of light, translations of light enter in to me, rather than true light birthing out, only darkness remains.

Can God lie?  Could God lie if he chose?  It's an oxy-moron question.  Truth simply can not lie, if it did or could, then it wouldn't be "truth" in the first place.  In the same way, it's impossible for God not to love the unloved.  I love because I choose to.  God loves not because he chooses, but because he "is" love.  For love to manifest, it needed a recipient to receive that love . . that's where we come in.  He not only are his creation, but we are his recipients so that he can be who he is.  Without a recipient, love can't exist.  In order for it to be what it is, it must manifest.  Without a recipient, love can not manifest.

My head is starting to spin . . .either that or the room is . . .haven't made my mind up on that one yet.

[WhiteWings]

Put your 2 year old in a room full of toys and tell it not to touch the doll or the car and see what happens.

.... after you put in a serpent in the same room.
I seems Adam and Eve resisted temptation until the serpent came along.

Have you ever observed a child after telling it not to do something? It will try it's best to do what you told it not to do, even if what it is told not to do hasn't even intrested the child before. It makes it more inticing when told not to do something.

Sure. I was not disagreeing with your child in a room of toys example. I was just saying it was made extra difficult if there was someone in teh room that would say it's find to touch the doll/car.

I'm curious if the serpent asked permission to God just as he did before tempting Job.

It doesn't say but couldn't God have stopped the serpent before he tempted Eve?

Sure. He could also have not put the tree in the garden. But He chose not too.
Just as you know the kid can't resit the doll God knew Eve couldn't resist the tree. And especially if someone showed up and told it's ok to touch the doll/tree.
Plus, Eve didn't have knowledge about good and evil.

God was tempting/testing imo.

[Nathan]

For me, I see it as God setting the course for man that would lead to the glroifying of the Son . . .down the road.  The tree of knowledge was the gateway that led man into this realm to bring into completion the whole plan of God.  To leave them without a means to become natural beings in this natural world would have left the plan incomplete.  It's not about man as much as it is about the manifestation of the glory of God. 

[Paul Hazelwood]

When we actually learn there are things God absolutely cannot do,  we then are on the path to being able to resolve these difficulties without rationalizations that can be applied to any action imaginable.

Wow!!! If there are things that God cannot do then how can we even think that we can do anything?

You may feel that way.   But scripture explains the issue.   Whatever God cannot do can be perceived as weakness or stupidity.

1C 1:25 for the stupidity of God is wiser than humanmen, and the weakness of God is stronger than humanmen.

Paul, this is GOD we are talking about.

And God is great even being unable to lie isn't he?  

Now, I must challenge you to show me a verse that states that God cannot lie, please.

Titus 1:2

Hb 6:18 that throughby two immutable matters, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have a strong consolation, who are fleeing for refuge to lay hold of the expectation lying before us,

[WhiteWings]

And God is great even being unable to lie isn't he?

Toward the light side Father is unlimited. All mentioned limitations are on the dark side.

Otherwise He would be Darth Vader  :winkgrin:

[Beloved Servant]

My head is starting to spin . . .either that or the room is . . .haven't made my mind up on that one yet.

" I will shake the heavens and the earth."

[Dallas]

When we actually learn there are things God absolutely cannot do,  we then are on the path to being able to resolve these difficulties without rationalizations that can be applied to any action imaginable.


Wow!!! If there are things that God cannot do then how can we even think that we can do anything? Paul, this is GOD we are talking about.

Now, I must challenge you to show me a verse that states that God cannot lie, please.

CHB

I don't think that it's God doesn't have the ability to lie, but it's that He will not lie. God can deny Himself but He won't do it.

It's not that there is anything impossible for God, instead it's there are some things God refuses to do.