The WILL of GOD... Can it be "thwarted" by men?

[Theo Book]

(TB)

This is a faulty solution to a mistated [problem. YOU are saying (If I understand correctly) that if God's will can be thwarted, it makes God less than the one who can thwart it. THAT is NOT what God says. God said, "choose you this day whom ye will serve." THAT expresses what the will of God is for men to observe; i.e., make a selection from options available, from which to select.

(WH)
God does not note that His WILL is put into question by any "choice" made by finite beings...
That GOD instructs a man to "choose", does not mean that the CHOICE made is actually "made" by the man... The man only enacts the choice... which has already been NOTED by the Declaration of ALL THINGS (which were ALL, yet undone) -- Rom 4:17 -- Isaiah 46:10-11 -- which have already been DECIDED by THAT DECLARATION...  That your hand moves to your forehead to scratch it, does not mean that the hand which is following an UNSEEN COMMAND of the head, ...decided of itself, to scratch the forehead...  :mnah:[/li][/list]

Wrong comparison; your hand has not been given free will by your mind. You do not think with your hand, and many fingers have been cut off and/or smashed for that very reason.  Because the hand does not have eyes, but must depend upon the mind and its analysis of what the eye sees, YOUR MIND has been given free will by God. Now, to make your doctrine palatable even though it totally ignores many scriptures, you make an incorrect comparison, between things that have nothing in common, and don't work the same way. That is why there can be suicides, the mind can make bad decisions that affect the whole body.

AND, your doctrine makes God directly responsible for all the bad decisions ever made by every man. God thereby become the author of confusion, which he denies, and the author of every crime committed by one man against another; rape, murder, genocide, slavery, hmmm!!! I don't think so.

(WH)

• (3)  The WILL of GOD ...IS... stated as a matter of [boulema] DETERMINATION in -- 2 Pet 3:9 -- not to mention the many places that His  [thelema] --- "desired" DETERMINATION is also made AND DONE, as in the "Lord's Prayer" -- Matt 6:18 -- Luke 11:2


• (4)  God would NEVER state something such as His WILL or DESIRE (which emerges from His POSITION of PERFECTION/COMPLETION)... but then, CONFOUND and FOIL His OWN Declaration via the [yet-to-be-done] "free will" doings of MAN...  This is an example of a [eternally frustrated] Kingdom ...DIVIDED AGAINST ITSELF...

IOW... If God has a DESIRE... that DESIRE is one which is ALREADY COMPLETE... that time is TEMPORARILY involved in the DISPLAY of that COMPLETED desire, does not make it COMPLETE... for the "DESIRE" emerges from a COMPLETE BEING which needs no such assistance from time OR men in order to be COMPLETE/PERFECT.

I gave you two contradicting statements, both made by God through inspiration, which tell entirely different endings to God's plans, yet you choose to ignore it rather than deal with it. No wonder you come up with USALV doctrine. You will not deal with anything that makes your position false.

God said to Abraham,

Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

To which you responded:
That God makes ANY pronouncement... means that it is included in His WORD... which changes NOT...

His WORD never RETURNS VOID unto wherever it has been sent -- Isaiah 55:11 -- NOTHING in the WORD brings "VOID" ... back to the table... NOTHING...

Which simply demonstrates how little knowledge you have of scripture. Remember the city of Nineveh? God sent Jonah to preach to Ninevah, to warn them of impending doom. They were told the words of God that in forty days their city would be destroyed. BUT, they repented, changed their mind and their ways, and God relented, repented of the evil he intended to do to them, and they survived till a later generation who failed to repent.

That is the pattern of behaviour found throughout the history of man; submit, forget, rebel, punishment, repent, submit, forget, etc, ad nauseum.

The reference I gave you that showed GIsrael did not do what God told Abraham they would do, you failed to compare with what God said they would do.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Now, tell me, who's will was it that these men "resist the will of the Holy Spirit" AS DID THEIR FATHERS"? Was it their will? You say they cannot thwart God's will, therefore you must say it is God's will for men to resist God's will. THAT IS INSANITY..


What then is the meaning, and reason behind, 1 John 5:18 "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

Many say this means God will not let a man sin who has been "born of God." THAT is a flase rendition of scripture.

It is like a mother who sees her little child stomping through the flower bed, and swats his behind while telling him, "You can't do that." She is not telling him it is impossible for him to do something, she is telling him it is inconsistant with good behaviour, and for bad behaviour he will be swatted.

God is saying "if you are born again, bad behaviour becomes inconsistant with who you have become." "You can't do that."

It is understood in the vernacular, there is a difference between utterances that cannot be changed and utterances that are intended to direct or guide behaviour.

[Paul Hazelwood]

This is a faulty solution to a mistated [problem. YOU are saying (If I understand correctly) that if God's will can be thwarted, it makes God less than the one who can thwart it. THAT is NOT what God says. God said, "choose you this day whom ye will serve." THAT expresses what the will of God is for men to observe; i.e., make a selection from options available, from which to select.

Theo, do you think there is a division between God showing the preferred path to his determined will and his determined will?

1 Timothy 2:4  various translations use different words  Will, is willing, desures, wishes,  but the definition of the word is  "to determine".  What God has determined absolutely cannot be thwarted.

What scripture shows us that God has determined man is obedient?

The scripture you point out is not God making a declaration for what man will do.  It is stating the path that is better for a person to take.  Nothing has been frustrated because God has not determined something that man changed.

[Theo Book]

This is a faulty solution to a mistated [problem. YOU are saying (If I understand correctly) that if God's will can be thwarted, it makes God less than the one who can thwart it. THAT is NOT what God says. God said, "choose you this day whom ye will serve." THAT expresses what the will of God is for men to observe; i.e., make a selection from options available, from which to select.

Theo, do you think there is a division between God showing the preferred path to his determined will and his determined will?

1 Timothy 2:4  various translations use different words  Will, is willing, desures, wishes,  but the definition of the word is  "to determine".  What God has determined absolutely cannot be thwarted.

What scripture shows us that God has determined man is obedient?

The scripture you point out is not God making a declaration for what man will do.  It is stating the path that is better for a person to take.  Nothing has been frustrated because God has not determined something that man changed.

Oh, I understand that my friend, what I do not understand is how Universal salvation deals with passage such as  Isaiah 63:3 "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment."


And---Jeremiah 1:16 "And I will utter my judgments against them touching all their wickedness, who have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, and worshipped the works of their own hands."

If it is God's will for man to disobey, (which I deny) then why does God get so furious with them when they disobey, in obedience to his will? It makes no sense whatsoever.

[Paul Hazelwood]

This is a faulty solution to a mistated [problem. YOU are saying (If I understand correctly) that if God's will can be thwarted, it makes God less than the one who can thwart it. THAT is NOT what God says. God said, "choose you this day whom ye will serve." THAT expresses what the will of God is for men to observe; i.e., make a selection from options available, from which to select.

Theo, do you think there is a division between God showing the preferred path to his determined will and his determined will?

1 Timothy 2:4  various translations use different words  Will, is willing, desures, wishes,  but the definition of the word is  "to determine".  What God has determined absolutely cannot be thwarted.

What scripture shows us that God has determined man is obedient?

The scripture you point out is not God making a declaration for what man will do.  It is stating the path that is better for a person to take.  Nothing has been frustrated because God has not determined something that man changed.

Oh, I understand that my friend, what I do not understand is how Universal salvation deals with passage such as  Isaiah 63:3 "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment."


And---Jeremiah 1:16 "And I will utter my judgments against them touching all their wickedness, who have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, and worshipped the works of their own hands."

If it is God's will for man to disobey, (which I deny) then why does God get so furious with them when they disobey, in obedience to his will? It makes no sense whatsoever.

You have to understand that Christian Universalism doesn't deal with that per sey, there is disagreement over the nature of our will with the understanding of a direct declaration in scripture that is indeed Gods determination as opposed to his preference for us.

So my point is that you do usually have to address those subjects with the person who expresses them because both Willie and I acknowledge God will save all mankind. The aspects of the journey getting there is something we can disagree over.   

So when it comes to God determining that I did the evil things in my life as a matter of "planning" from a desire that I do them I cannot address your question, because I do not agree that is the nature of those things.   

I was pointing out how I see that Gods will is not thwarted.

[peacemaker]

Thwart suggests stopping something (his will) by opposing, blocking, or hindering it. In other words, running contrary to it.
Frustrate implies rendering all attempts or efforts of the SPIRIT useless or ineffectual, so that it is overcome.
These propositions of men are a cause of confusion; the doctrines of Hell.

Whether, it is by self  "election" or rejection.

peacemaker

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I shared it before, but this is what He showed me concerning our will vs. His will.

I saw myself from above driving, constrained by the element of time. God was above, not constrained by time, but instead seeing the end from the beginning.

So when He saw me make a wrong turn, He placed a roadblock or other diversion in my path to make me turn the way He desired.

To me, constrained by time, it appeared that I was making the choices, but in reality, He was "stacking the deck".  :bigGrin: Blessings.....

[willieH]

willieH: Hi TB...  :happygrin:

(TB)

This is a faulty solution to a mistated [problem. YOU are saying (If I understand correctly) that if God's will can be thwarted, it makes God less than the one who can thwart it. THAT is NOT what God says. God said, "choose you this day whom ye will serve." THAT expresses what the will of God is for men to observe; i.e., make a selection from options available, from which to select.

(WH)
God does not note that His WILL is put into question by any "choice" made by finite beings...
That GOD instructs a man to "choose", does not mean that the CHOICE made is actually "made" by the man... The man only enacts the choice... which has already been NOTED by the Declaration of ALL THINGS (which were ALL, yet undone) -- Rom 4:17 -- Isaiah 46:10-11 -- which have already been DECIDED by THAT DECLARATION...  That your hand moves to your forehead to scratch it, does not mean that the hand which is following an UNSEEN COMMAND of the head, ...decided of itself, to scratch the forehead...  :mnah:

Wrong comparison; your hand has not been given free will by your mind.

"Wrong", as compared to what?  YOU and Your opinion?  :mnah: 

You failed to see in the example, that the HAND was given UNSEEN COMMAND to do as it DID... which command CAME from the HEAD.

It is WRITTEN that ALL HAVE SINNED... this was determined about YOU, before you drew a breath, bro.

Neither has YOUR "MIND" been given "free will" by GOD (if it had truly been given, it would be "DULY" noted as a "gift" in the WORD, however... it is NOT WRITTEN in the WORD, and is therefore reduced to being an ASSUMPTION made by YOU)...

What actually IS "DULY" NOTED and ACTUALLY WRITTEN in the WORD, is that you were (as has everyone) ...CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 -- as well as inserted -- IN ADAM (into his sinfulness) -- Rom 5:12 -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- certainly NEITHER of these which BIND YOU to SIN and DEATH, were "your call", bro Theo...  :dontknow:

You do not think with your hand, and many fingers have been cut off and/or smashed for that very reason.  Because the hand does not have eyes, but must depend upon the mind and its analysis of what the eye sees, YOUR MIND has been given free will by God. Now, to make your doctrine palatable even though it totally ignores many scriptures, you make an incorrect comparison, between things that have nothing in common, and don't work the same way. That is why there can be suicides, the mind can make bad decisions that affect the whole body.

(1)  If only you would open your eyes brother T... you would afford yourself the opportunity to SEE...  You conclude another [me] "WRONG" or "INCORRECT"... and the only basis for this designation, is a comparison to what I have BIBLICALLY noted... to your own OPINION and your OWN WORDS.

(2)  You "say" that I "TOTALLY ignore many scriptures" in order to make "my doctrine palatable" -- yet you name NONE...  :dontknow:

(3)  Even though Scripture plainly notes the SPIRITUAL reality, via it's PHYSICAL REFLECTION (as you have nicely noted in blue above) -- 1 Cor 12:12-26 --  still, you fail to recognize it.

(4)  You are dependent upon a belief in "FREE WILL" as a "gift" from God, but fail to note where this is WRITTEN...  What IS WRITTEN is that (aside from CHRIST and His INDWELLING and CONTROL) the MIND is CARNAL -- Col 2:18 -- Rom 7:14 -- 1 Cor 3:3 -- and that the HEART is "DESPARATELY WICKED" ABOVE ALL THINGS -- Jer 17:9 -- Which are HARDLY designations that describe an entity [the MIND of MAN], as being "FREE"! 

Methinks it is YOU which IGNORE many Scriptures (at least I bothered to name a few), in order to make "your doctrine, palatable"...  :sigh:

AND, your doctrine makes God directly responsible for all the bad decisions ever made by every man. God thereby become the author of confusion, which he denies, and the author of every crime committed by one man against another; rape, murder, genocide, slavery, hmmm!!! I don't think so.

(1)  He IS "responsible" for ALL THINGS, for HE WORKS ALL THINGS, Theo -- Eph 1:11 -- for BY HIM, were ALL THINGS created, and  FOR HIM as well -- Col 1:16 -- ALL that was "made" was MADE by Him -- John 1:3 -- to include the MEN which make said mistakes... which via His FOREKNOWLEDGE and DECLARATION, do they MAKE said mistakes -- Isaiah 46:10 -- Rom 4:17 -- as HE leads their "steps" (way) -- Prov 20:24 -- Prov 16:9 -- Jer 10:23

(2) -- Rape, murder, genocide, slavery, are ALL part of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD & EVIL, that lies within the HEART of YHVH... which is EMERGENT from HIM, as well as TEMPORAL (as far as manifestation) and which is to be each set under the FOOT of GOOD which is ETERNAL -- 1 Cor 15:27-28 -- and which is ALSO WHY... YHVH stands by (doing NOTHING to stop them), as ALL these things OCCUR.

You picture Him as VENGENT... waiting for the History of MAN to become completed... and then EXACTING His power of VENGENCE upon them... failing to GRASP the teachings of CHRIST which note that the "eye for eye trip" is no longer VALID and that ENEMIES must be BLESSED and LOVED, ...not CURSED and RECOMPENSED -- Matt 5:44-48  -- Which describe the PERFECTION [vs 48] of YHVH in Heaven -- Do you not know these things, bro T?

(WH)

• (3)  The WILL of GOD ...IS... stated as a matter of [boulema] DETERMINATION in -- 2 Pet 3:9 -- not to mention the many places that His  [thelema] --- "desired" DETERMINATION is also made AND DONE, as in the "Lord's Prayer" -- Matt 6:18 -- Luke 11:2
  
  (4)  God would NEVER state something such as His WILL or DESIRE (which emerges from His POSITION of PERFECTION/COMPLETION)... but then, CONFOUND and FOIL His OWN Declaration via the [yet-to-be-done] "free will" doings of MAN...  This is an example of a [eternally frustrated] Kingdom ...DIVIDED AGAINST ITSELF...
  
  IOW... If God has a DESIRE... that DESIRE is one which is ALREADY COMPLETE... that time is TEMPORARILY involved in the DISPLAY of that COMPLETED desire, does not make it COMPLETE... for the "DESIRE" emerges from a COMPLETE BEING which needs no such assistance from time OR men in order to be COMPLETE/PERFECT.
  

I gave you two contradicting statements, both made by God through inspiration, which tell entirely different endings to God's plans, yet you choose to ignore it rather than deal with it. No wonder you come up with USALV doctrine. You will not deal with anything that makes your position false.

Don't you see that you PURPOSE confusion, brother?  These do not stand in OPPOSITION of one another, only in the mind which is confused... I do not give creedence to the grandiose failings which you presently embrace... and which the Lord has delivered me from (my 25yrs within the proposals of them)...

God said to Abraham,

Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

To which you responded:

That God makes ANY pronouncement... means that it is included in His WORD... which changes NOT...

His WORD never RETURNS VOID unto wherever it has been sent -- Isaiah 55:11 -- NOTHING in the WORD brings "VOID" ... back to the table... NOTHING...

Which simply demonstrates how little knowledge you have of scripture.

Please!  :laughing7:

I shall be the FIRST to admit that my knowledge of Scripture is limited.  However... that you do not NOTE that which you wish me to address (which is purposed deception)... does not equate my "knowledge of Scripture" to be faulty... just my comprehension of your proposed confusion, as that which is limited...  :dontknow:

Remember the city of Nineveh? God sent Jonah to preach to Ninevah, to warn them of impending doom. They were told the words of God that in forty days their city would be destroyed. BUT, they repented, changed their mind and their ways, and God relented, repented of the evil he intended to do to them, and they survived till a later generation who failed to repent.

GOD does NOT CHANGE -- Mal 3:6 -- neither does HIS WORD -- Heb 13:8

What you fail to see in this story of Jonah brother Theo... is that the WILL of GOD sent Him to accomplish what ENDED UP being accomplished.  :dontknow:  You fail in the very SAME WAY, to see the mission of CHRIST who was SENT NOT TO CONDEMN, but to SAVE the WORLD that GOD SO LOVED [eternally-unchangingly loves]...

You make the whole she-bang, bass-ackwards... and instead of SAVING the WORLD, you preach He shall DO that which He was SENT NOT to DO...  :sigh:

Jonah was SENT to SAVE Ninevah by his preaching... and IN THE END, Ninevah ended up ...SAVED... wasn't it?  Do you NOT, see this?  Of course you do not... which is why you are continually noting others as "wrong" or "incorrect"... using YOURSELF and YOUR OPINIONS as the measure to make such determinations...  :thumbdown:

That is the pattern of behaviour found throughout the history of man; submit, forget, rebel, punishment, repent, submit, forget, etc, ad nauseum.

The reference I gave you that showed GIsrael did not do what God told Abraham they would do, you failed to compare with what God said they would do.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Now, tell me, who's will was it that these men "resist the will of the Holy Spirit" AS DID THEIR FATHERS"? Was it their will? You say they cannot thwart God's will, therefore you must say it is God's will for men to resist God's will. THAT IS INSANITY..

Theo... you are so bound in the idea that where GRACE abounded, SIN much more abounded... that you shall not see, regardless of any amount of explanations...

The WILL of GOD is done in ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11 -- live with it.  When will you begin to BELIEVE the Scriptures, instead of the foul porridge which you have been fed, bro?  When will you KNOW that GOD WINS... and the premise of EVIL LOSES?  When shall you abandon your own OPINIONS and look at the WORLD through His eyes instead of your own?  :dontknow:

What then is the meaning, and reason behind, 1 John 5:18 "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

Not that you shall listen, but this is a "POST vs PRIOR" type of statement... When YOU were a SINNER (and btw... you still ARE -- 1 John 1:8)... you PURPOSED without regard in your SIN... however... The very same Apostle that wrote 1 John 5:18, also wrote a few verses before -- 1 John 1:8...

Failing to see that YOU are YET, a SINNER... you stand in judgment of those in the world (of which YOU were once numbered)... by thinking yourself "begotten"...  There is ONLY ONE which was "BEGOTTEN" bro... JESUS CHRIST... the rest of us are SINNERS, which need to SAY that we are, as did PAUL -- Rom 7 -- entire chapter.

Only THEN... shall you cease from such "religious" PIOUSNESS... and join the rest of us... who have found a better way.  :sigh:

When you have DIED to yourself... and cease the measurement of others... because the CHRIST which JUDGETH NO MAN... is HE that LIVES in you... and HE that abstains from SIN -- IN YOU -- on your [sinful] behalf... then shall you find ENEMIES as "loveable"... and "forgiveable"... as did the Savior:  ..."Father, forgive them for they KNOW NOT, what they DO" -- Luke 23:34

John was not stating that "he" was of GOD, rather, that "he" was in submission to GOD via CHRIST which dwelt IN HIM...  Do you have an EAR to HEAR, brother?

Many say this means God will not let a man sin who has been "born of God." THAT is a flase rendition of scripture.

:sigh:  More of the same from you... "Theo" decides who is "wrong", ..."Theo" decides who is "incorrect" ..."Theo" decides what is "false"...  Get off the high horse bro... and join us on our faces before HIM... 

:bowing: :bowing: :bowing: YHVH

...willieH  :cloud9:[/list]

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Rebecca... :hithere:

Hope you and yours are well and doing great!  :friendstu:

:cloud9: I shared it before, but this is what He showed me concerning our will vs. His will.

I saw myself from above driving, constrained by the element of time. God was above, not constrained by time, but instead seeing the end from the beginning.

So when He saw me make a wrong turn, He placed a roadblock or other diversion in my path to make me turn the way He desired.

To me, constrained by time, it appeared that I was making the choices, but in reality, He was "stacking the deck".  :bigGrin: Blessings.....

:goodpost:  Very good sister R...  :2thumbs:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Theo Book]

(TB)

Wrong comparison; your hand has not been given free will by your mind.

(WH) "Wrong", as compared to what?  YOU and Your opinion?

Nope! WRONG as compared to reality. You do not think with your hands. You were not given free reach, or free clutch, you were given free will. Try dealing with the subject.   

(WH)

It is WRITTEN that ALL HAVE SINNED... this was determined about YOU, before you drew a breath, bro.

Again, NOPE!
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, NEITHER HAVING DONE ANY good or EVIL, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Paul is not talking about men who are made to sin so God can bless them with forgiveness. He is talking about all men being made by God, some who choose good, some who choose evil, and in their goodness and in their evil, God makes a use for them all to his ultimate purpose.

Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Paul is not saying God chooses to not have mercy on some because he made them evil, he is saying that because some men choose evil, God will use them for evil to bring about his ultimate purpose.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Look at how and WHEN God determines a pot is good or evil. He does not predetermine goodness or evilness for a pot in the making. He waits until the finished product makes its intent known, THEN he pronounces it good or evil according to its own choices.

Jeremiah 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

God tells us WHEN he determines a pot is good or evil, and it is NOT prior to its being formed.
Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 IF THAT NATION, against whom I have pronounced, TURN from their evil, I WILL REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 IF IT DO EVIL in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I WILL REPENT OF THE GOOD, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

YOU say man cannot make his ways good, GOD says differently.
Jer 18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return YE now every one from his evil way, and MAKE YOUR WAYS AND YOUR DOINGS GOOD.

GOD TELLS US ABOUT THE DECISIONS OF MEN BEING A FACTOR IN WHO THEY BECOME
Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

GOOD MEN WILL LIVE
Ezek 18:5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, 6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, 7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; 8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, 9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

BAD MEN WILL DIE
Ezek 18:10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,
11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,
12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,
13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.

SONS DO NOT HAVE TO FOLLOW THEIR FATHER'S FOOTSTEPS
Ezek 18:14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,
15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,
16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,
17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.

FATHERS ARE NOT SAVED BY THEIR SONS BEHAVIOUR
Ezek 18:18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.

BOTH FATHER AND SON CAN CHANGE, CHOOSE GOOD OVER EVIL, REPENT, AND LIVE
Ezek 18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

BOTH CAN TURN FROM GOOD TO DO EVIL, AND DIE
Ezek 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.


(WH)

Neither has YOUR "MIND" been given "free will" by GOD (if it had truly been given, it would be "DULY" noted as a "gift" in the WORD, however... it is NOT WRITTEN in the WORD, and is therefore reduced to being an ASSUMPTION made by YOU)...

Nope! "Free will" is a definitioin of a concept spoken by God. it is not the words found in scripture, but those which are recognized by all who read scripture. Just as "prodigal son" brings to men's minds, that son who wasted his inheritance in "riotous living" - yet "prodigal" is not found in scripture.

"Free will" is not found in scripture, but the concept "free will" brings to the mind IS taught in scripture, by virtue of the meaning inherent in "CHOOSE YE this day whom YE WILL serve. See it? "CHOOSE YE" whom "YE WILL." FREE WILL by definition, not by inclusion in the written account.

(WH)

What actually IS "DULY" NOTED and ACTUALLY WRITTEN in the WORD, is that you were (as has everyone) ...CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 -- as well as inserted -- IN ADAM (into his sinfulness) -- Rom 5:12 -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- certainly NEITHER of these which BIND YOU to SIN and DEATH, were "your call", bro Theo...   

Re-read Jeremiah 18:7-10
"AT WHAT INSTANT I SHALL SPEAK concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 IF THAT NATION, against whom I have pronounced, TURN from their evil, I WILL REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jer 18:9 And AT WHAT INSTANT I SHALL SPEAK concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 IF IT DO EVIL in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I WILL REPENT OF THE GOOD, wherewith I said I would benefit them."


(WH)

(2)  You "say" that I "TOTALLY ignore many scriptures" in order to make "my doctrine palatable" -- yet you name NONE... 

I think you will find both Ezekial 18 and Jeremiah 18 in my prior posts. I simply did not repost them due to lenghty posting. AND the fact they were ignorded previously.

(WH)

(4)  You are dependent upon a belief in "FREE WILL" as a "gift" from God, but fail to note where this is WRITTEN... 

Nope! Written again and again, "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve" has been referenced and quoted throughout.

I really do not see any purpose in continuing this dialogue, as we are diametrically opposed in the application of what is found in scripture. I will move on.

[jabcat]

Yeah, we've probably had enough direct "free will" discussion already.  It won't be settled in any one thread.  There's plenty written about it that's available to read, including on the TM Main Page.  If any of us can't discuss this without getting into a struggle about that term that Theo said's not in the scriptures, then it probably is best to move on to another topic.  Plenty else to talk about.

(Mod hat off) - Simple question;  Who ensures the final outcome of all things?  It's written in the Word.   :bigGrin:

[jabcat]

P.S.  I agree with PaulH, there's plenty of questions about how we get there, but appears to me to be some bottom lines that God says He'll ensure.  

I believe we may "choose this day", or resist this day, but IMO, that just follows the inevitable that God is putting in place and creating the circumstances that ultimately fulfill His desires.  There may be a process, but I believe the end is guaranteed.  Some enter the narrow gate, the majority by the broad road of destruction - saved as by fire - still God setting the circumstances to bring all through Christ. Every knee, every tongue.  Best to be as obedient as possible now.  Doesn't work best and doesn't feel good to kick and scream.  I ought'a know.  :bigGrin:

We plan our way but God directs our steps.  See Apostle Paul.

[Theo Book]

P.S.  I agree with PaulH, there's plenty of questions about how we get there, but appears to me to be some bottom lines that God says He'll ensure.  

I believe we may "choose this day", or resist this day, but IMO, that just follows the inevitable that God is putting in place and creating the circumstances that ultimately fulfill His desires.  There may be a process, but I believe the end is guaranteed.  Some enter the narrow gate, the majority by the broad road of destruction - saved as by fire - still God setting the circumstances to bring all through Christ. Every knee, every tongue.  Best to be as obedient as possible now.  Doesn't work best and doesn't feel good to kick and scream.  I ought'a know.  :bigGrin:

We plan our way but God directs our steps.  See Apostle Paul.

What's this? A touch of sanity?

I think the issue of "free will" in the province of God's sovereignity, is akin to the concept of evolution within the scope of creation.

I think God utilizes evolution within creation. I also think  has given us [mod edit] within the scope of his sovereign design for 3eternity.

[jabcat]

There's a wide spectrum of belief on this matter Theo.  Directly addressing the OP, I just think most here, even though there's some disagreement on the processes involved, just truly believe God will ultimately have His way.  (I personally prefer Ultimate Reconciliation!) - that He does indeed work all things according to the counsel of His will.  There's just varying understandings of exactly what that looks like as we plod along day to day.   :cool:

[jabcat]

And you just keep on thinking I'm sane.   :laughing7:

[Beloved Servant]

What's this? A touch of sanity?

There are two sides to every coin, Theo.

[Shadow]

Good to see you back Cardinal :icon_flower:

[jabcat]

What's this? A touch of sanity?

There are two sides to every coin, Theo.

And every coin has many ridges around it.

[Beloved Servant]

Every?

[jabcat]

Maybe not.  If you're going to get picky with me, some coins are double-sided.   :laugh2:

And you're right, I don't believe in generalizations.   :thumbsup:

[Nathan]

Every?

Man!  Can't get NOTHING past you!!  Pennies and nickles . . .any other coins with no ridges??

[Beloved Servant]

The Widows Mite

[jabcat]

It's such a complicated topic - clarifying, I'm not saying I believe God's will can be thwarted.  I believe He ultimately gets exactly what He wants.  :thumbsup:

[Beloved Servant]

Almighty God, thank you for showing us Your name.
Almighty God, Your plan remains the same.

[Beloved Servant]

Just the idea of thwarting His plan is the ludicrous pride of Adam.

He wouldn't be so almighty then, would He?

Pathetic.

[jabcat]

Good point, David.  Brings it into perspective.  :thumbsup: