The WILL of GOD... Can it be "thwarted" by men?

[claypot]

So God forsaw trillions of choices His creation would make and based His plan on those choices?

That's how I see it. And how does God foresee trillions of choices His creation will make? It is He who works IN US to will.

We still made those choices, and God knowing that in advance has nothing to do with us being unable to make those choices, it has nothing to do with God controlling us, it simply is God already knowing what we would do and he prepared for what we would do so that his will to save all man kind was not thwarted at all.

To me "God works in us" is an active God.
But in your description God just knows it will work out fine. That's good but also a passive God that just waits instead of "working in us"

I agree with you WW. God doesn't just know things will work out fine, He works in us to assure all things will work out fine. This is HIS painting, HIS production. We are HIS workmanship. Eph 2.10

cp

[WhiteWings]

But is He still working right now?
For example a potter makes a pot of clay. Then the potter just sits back and waits while the pot dries.

It's a bit like: Did God make the flowers in my garden personally? Or did He "just" created law of nature that took care of my flowers?

[claypot]

But is He still working right now?

Yes, God is eternally 'working' and eternally at 'rest'. God is eternal. God is. God will always be working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. I don't think us getting saved is the end, I believe it is just the beginning.

For example a potter makes a pot of clay. Then the potter just sits back and waits while the pot dries.

God never just sits back, He is always in us, enjoying 'us'. He is in the drying process too. This gives Him pleasure IMO.

It's a bit like: Did God make the flowers in my garden personally? Or did He "just" created law of nature that took care of my flowers?

God made the flowers in your garden personally because they are the work of His heart yet you and the laws of nature are His vehicles.

Do you understand or am I bumbling again with my words?

cp

[eaglesway]

boulema, thelema :dontknow: boulema, thelema :swordfight:

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will(thelema):
(Eph 1:10-11)

If He works all things according to the counsel of His thelema- it don't matter whether you define it as desire or intent- His desire and His intent are one in that He causes all things to work after the counsel of His own THELEMA

So, IMO His boulema is that His thelema be fulfilled :boogie:

boulema, thelema :handshake: boulema, thelema  :high5:

[rosered]

  :thumbsup:  everything temporary  has a cycle , when complete , glories in that moment



  you have a garden  and the flowers are to fade away , but the hope is they will come back next season  in the  same  glory .

  the cycle does  start over  and over again and again or it dies  and ends
  but God  who is the Master of all these things  has a plan that  works eternally  for the good of all  things   He alone understands  purpose and that is when men and devils /a god  of the temporary ..dont have a clue

  how something can remain and Glorify God  forever 
His Work  completes us and fills the void / empty 


Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.  


Isa 27:3 I the LORD do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest [any] hurt it, I will keep it night and day.

  :icon_flower:

[Paul Hazelwood]

So God forsaw trillions of choices His creation would make and based His plan on those choices?

It is probably not exactly like that.  It is more along the lines that God created us knowing the only way to come to him was through the unique path that must be.   That is an inherant part of being created that even God cannot change.  This is why God grieves, he knows what we will go through, and he can only prepare the way so that we are made whole.   Some get offended by that because they think it is limiting God, but our perception of limits is irrelevant.

Pr 16:9 A man's heart devises his way, Yet Yahweh establishes his steps.

Pr 5:21 For the ways of a man are before the eyes of Yahweh, Who prepares the way for all his routes.


These verses fit perfectly with that idea.  The potter and the clay, sure we can take that passage to confine it to a certain believe, but the potter and the clay is only a piece of the picture.  Does clay see? Does it speak? Does it know things?   No, so we are clay in one sense concerning scriptural explanations, but not clay in the total sense.

To me "God works in us" is an active God.
But in your description God just knows it will work out fine. That's good but also a passive God that just waits instead of "working in us

None of what I said prevents his activity.  What we would like his activity to be is another matter.   

[eaglesway]

Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Who has been His counselor?
Who has given to Him that He should repay?
For from Him and to Him and through Him are all things, to whom be the glory throughout the ages.

When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

I am glad that some things defy definition- transcending by their very nature what can be diagrammed in this present incompletion. Otherwise I might just languish forever at the tree of knowledge even as the Father calls me further on into trust, hope and love. Come all ye who thirst, drink freely of the water of life.

Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon. "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts. "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, And do not return there without watering the earth And making it bear and sprout, And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it. "For you will go out with joy And be led forth with peace; The mountains and the hills will break forth into shouts of joy before you, And all the trees of the field will clap their hands. "Instead of the thorn bush the cypress will come up, And instead of the nettle the myrtle will come up, And it will be a memorial to the LORD, For an everlasting sign which will not be cut off."
(Isa 55:6-13)

[rosered]

AMEN!! :thumbsup:   :icon_flower:

[claypot]

It is probably not exactly like that.  It is more along the lines that God created us knowing the only way to come to him was through the unique path that must be.   That is an inherant part of being created that even God cannot change.  This is why God grieves, he knows what we will go through, and he can only prepare the way so that we are made whole.   Some get offended by that because they think it is limiting God, but our perception of limits is irrelevant.

Good words Paul. God grieves. Can we even imagine that? Yet if He is so intimate as to be working in us then He must 'feel' our sorrows as His own in some fashion.

Pr 16:9 A man's heart devises his way, Yet Yahweh establishes his steps.

Pr 5:21 For the ways of a man are before the eyes of Yahweh, Who prepares the way for all his routes.

Perfect, of course.

These verses fit perfectly with that idea.  The potter and the clay, sure we can take that passage to confine it to a certain believe, but the potter and the clay is only a piece of the picture.  Does clay see? Does it speak? Does it know things?   No, so we are clay in one sense concerning scriptural explanations, but not clay in the total sense.

We are 'clay' that is being worked on from within by none other than God Himself to become so much more than I can imagine or think.

To me "God works in us" is an active God.

Amen

cp

[WhiteWings]

Good usage of smilies in post#28  :thumbsup:
:winkgrin:

So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it

Very clear.
But I fear it won't convince those who think Father's will can be thwarted. They just change their story a little.
Instead of "man can thwart God's will" they just change it into something like "it's God's will that mankind does what it likes even if not liked by God"
The whole debate about thwarting God's will isn't as if they care His will can be thwarted. Without mankind being able to thwart God's will it get even harder to defend ET.
Simply because it would mean God is in full control and kicks people into hell because they were so perfectly controlled by Him.

[WhiteWings]

To me "God works in us" is an active God.
But in your description God just knows it will work out fine. That's good but also a passive God that just waits instead of "working in us

None of what I said prevents his activity.  What we would like his activity to be is another matter.

Then I can only hope He doesn't charge overtime. It would take me a hell of along time to pay back. I hope His Son will help me out a little with the payments :whistleshake:

[claypot]

Good usage of smilies in post#28  :thumbsup:
:winkgrin:

So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it

Very clear.
But I fear it won't convince those who think Father's will can be thwarted. They just change their story a little.
Instead of "man can thwart God's will" they just change it into something like "it's God's will that mankind does what it likes even if not liked by God"
The whole debate about thwarting God's will isn't as if they care His will can be thwarted. Without mankind being able to thwart God's will it get even harder to defend ET.
Simply because it would mean God is in full control and kicks people into hell because they were so perfectly controlled by Him.

Good stuff WW. I am finding that it is very hard for those not of our mindset to argue with the fact that it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. My neighbor was over and I think truly encouraged (changed) by this truth.

The other thought I had while reading your post is how even our adversaries in this area of et vs ur are people whom God is working in to do and to will of His good pleasure. (I know how to chew a bone to death don't I?) But I am overwhelmed here. Think about this. Our very adversaries, like Satan Himself and evil, are workings of God. Mind blowing but it makes so much sense.

cp

[claypot]

 

None of what I said prevents his activity.  What we would like his activity to be is another matter.

Then I can only hope He doesn't charge overtime. It would take me a hell of along time to pay back. I hope His Son will help me out a little with the payments :whistleshake:

You're as much a mystery to me as God is WW!!!!! lol

cp

[Paul Hazelwood]

To me "God works in us" is an active God.
But in your description God just knows it will work out fine. That's good but also a passive God that just waits instead of "working in us

None of what I said prevents his activity.  What we would like his activity to be is another matter.

Then I can only hope He doesn't charge overtime. It would take me a hell of along time to pay back. I hope His Son will help me out a little with the payments :whistleshake:

Many people go down long dark paths before they get home.

[WhiteWings]

I am finding that it is very hard for those not of our mindset to argue with the fact that it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. My neighbor was over and I think truly encouraged (changed) by this truth.

"All" and "age" are often to direct for many people. It forces them in defencive mode.
But what you wrote is more of trojan horse approach. Just use things they already believe. But in such a way it points in a concealed way to UR.

The other thought I had while reading your post is how even our adversaries in this area of et vs ur are people whom God is working in to do and to will of His good pleasure. (I know how to chew a bone to death don't I?) But I am overwhelmed here. Think about this. Our very adversaries, like Satan Himself and evil, are workings of God. Mind blowing but it makes so much sense.

Not to me to be honest. I read things. I learn things. I write things on this forum. But that often simply means that's how I understand the teachings. It doesn't mean I don't find things weird and unfair. Yes I know most on this forum don't like to hear unfair in connection to God. But because He already knows I'm saying anyway :winkgrin:
I was (am) on the dark side of life for most of my life. I only started with religion less that two years ago. Spamming this forum. Playing with smilies. And making some fun. That's about it. While other people, especially ET people, had 2 years of horror because of their hell fears. And they sure try harder to please Father than me.

[eaglesway]

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
(Heb 5:12)

Therefore leaving the principles (arche-beginnings) of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto maturity; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.
(Heb 6:1-3)

It seems to me the first two foundation stones are mainly coming to know "who" God is (koinonea in his eternal power and divine nature). The second two are mainly the "hows" of God (multiplying the body in Word and Spirit). Resurrection of the dead is mainly the "whens and whats" of God (we know not yet "what" we shall be, but we know that "when" we see Him, we shall be like Him.....)

IMO the foundation of eternal judgment is the "whys" if God.  We cannot grow "wise" without the "whys".

Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
(Eph 1:8-10)

It is impossible to move on to maturity without the foundations- God will not permit. They are choking on the milk, on the first principles of the gospel, because they have been fed a false view of God's invisible attributes- His eternal power and divine nature

If you can't see that the reason for what God has done flows from His nature- you can't understand what He is doing.

If you can't see the goal you can't run the race in the right direction, so you follow the crowd.

They cannot understand the "hows", because the stewardship of the mystery- this "ministry of reconciliation" requires we "know Him"- and know what spirit we are of.........

So I pray that the veil that remains over their eyes will be removed and that they may escape the snare of the devil in which they are snared and that they will come to know Him.....

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature....... For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself.... 

Praying for them....

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Having eyes they cannot perceive, having ears they cannot understand.....

[claypot]

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
(Heb 5:12)

Therefore leaving the principles (arche-beginnings) of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto maturity; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.
(Heb 6:1-3)

It seems to me the first two foundation stones are mainly coming to know "who" God is (koinonea in his eternal power and divine nature). The second two are mainly the "hows" of God (multiplying the body in Word and Spirit). Resurrection of the dead is mainly the "whens and whats" of God (we know not yet "what" we shall be, but we know that "when" we see Him, we shall be like Him.....)

IMO the foundation of eternal judgment is the "whys" if God.  We cannot grow "wise" without the "whys".

Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
(Eph 1:8-10)

It is impossible to move on to maturity without the foundations- God will not permit. They are choking on the milk, on the first principles of the gospel, because they have been fed a false view of God's invisible attributes- His eternal power and divine nature

If you can't see that the reason for what God has done flows from His nature- you can't understand what He is doing.

If you can't see the goal you can't run the race in the right direction, so you follow the crowd.

They cannot understand the "hows", because the stewardship of the mystery- this "ministry of reconciliation" requires we "know Him"- and know what spirit we are of.........

So I pray that the veil that remains over their eyes will be removed and that they may escape the snare of the devil in which they are snared and that they will come to know Him.....

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature....... For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself.... 

Praying for them....

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Having eyes they cannot perceive, having ears they cannot understand.....

Yet even the weak ones God is working in to will and to do of His good pleasure. It pleases Him to have weak ones it seems as it seems to please Him to have downright nasty ones. All is out of God, for God and through God.

cp

[Nathan]

Wow . . .this is really great stuff.  Thank you eaglesway for sharing your perspectives.

[eaglesway]

 Whatever the ascended view that transcends time, we are IN time, seeing through a glass darkly, beholding as in a mirror. Hence, although we know that all things are from Him and through Him and to Him- He lives in the NOW. TODAY if we HEAR His voice, we participate in the mystery. We enter rest when we cease form our own works and enter HIS HEART- I AM (I AM NOW ALWAYS BEING WHO I AM) partakers of the divine nature. Jesus was the express image of God- He wept and prayed with loud groaning and felt forsaken and interceded for His tormentors. The closest we get to eternity in life is RIGHT NOW, in this moment, in the twinkling of an eye. Therefore while it is still called TODAY, exhort one another to love and good works.

We know that all things are being reconciled, but our participation in that reconciliation involves UNION WITH THE FATHER"S HEART which was expressed in Jesus ON THE CROSS. So we are called to weep, to intercede, to proclaim the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ. If we are disciples, we must, as Paul put it, strive according to the rules. We don't get the privilege of opting out because we know the end is that God will be all in all. All the more in fact, as we see the day approaching we labor diligently to enter rest so that having done all we can stand in the evil day.

If in God's Whysdom he saw fit to find a friend in Abraham who offered his hope and the apple of his eye up to God in faith, we are called to the same friendship, that through faith, we are able to yield our bodies as a living sacrifice holy and acceptable unto God, being not conformed to this world but being transformed through the Re- NEWING of our minds so that we might prove what is the good and perfect and acceptable will of God.

I fall so far short of this I have little room within myself to judge others. I hope that grace abounds in the tabernacle and I get a little run-off :o) I am absolutely convinced that my blessing is only to be revealed with the manifestation of the Body of Christ under the Headship of Jesus- so I intercede for it continually.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi EW...  :cloud9:

boulema, thelema :dontknow: boulema, thelema :swordfight:

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will(thelema):
(Eph 1:10-11)

If He works all things according to the counsel of His thelema- it don't matter whether you define it as desire or intent- His desire and His intent are one in that He causes all things to work after the counsel of His own THELEMA

So, IMO His boulema is that His thelema be fulfilled :boogie:

boulema, thelema :handshake: boulema, thelema  :high5:

:goodpost:  Very good, bro!  I see it exactly the same way...  :friendstu:

Why would God's "INTENT" [boulema], be in ANY OPPOSITION to His "DESIRES" [thelema]? :omg:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi EW... :hithere:

If in God's Whysdom he saw fit to find a friend in Abraham who offered his hope and the apple of his eye up to God in faith, we are called to the same friendship, that through faith, we are able to yield our bodies as a living sacrifice holy and acceptable unto God, being not conformed to this world but being transformed through the Re- NEWING of our minds so that we might prove what is the good and perfect [TELEIOS=complete] and acceptable will [=THELEMA] of God.

Again, Good post brother...  :thumbsup:

A "PERFECT" [TELEIOS -- #G5046] -- "THELEMA" -- can only be that "THELEMA" which is COMPLETE...

Matt 5:48 ...be ye therefore PERFECT [teleios] as your FATHER in Heaven is PERFECT [teleios]  

PERFECT=COMPLETE [TELEIOS -- #G5046]  :happygrin:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

Yes, for sure. If YHWH sets His boulema against His thelema, How can He say "Come let us reason together". The idea that the Logos is so illogical that God can not bring His thelema to His kingdom by the exercise of His boulema is not reasonable, logocal, or really, even sane.

"Thy kingdom come, Thy thelema be done, on earth as it is in heaven"

(Rev 5:11)  And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

(Rev 5:12)  Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

(Rev 5:13)  And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

[Theo Book]

willieH: Hello everybody...  :cloud9:

Here is a condensed synopsis of the interaction:

It all grinded to a halt, on the presentation of the word "BOULEMA" as is used in 2 Pet 3:9

These guys heartily argued against UR... and in doing so, ...they maintained that BOULEMA -- #G1014 (or derivitives of it such as BOULE #G1012 -- BOULEUO #G1011), are an INSISTENT and UNALTERABLE communication concerning the "WILL" [purpose/intent] of God.  And that THELO #G2309 / THELEMA #G2307 is merely a (watered down) DESIRE (rather than "WILL") which is often FOILED, FRUSTRATED and THWARTED... by the doings of men...

This is a faulty solution to a mistated [problem. YOU are saying (If I understand correctly) that if God's will can be thwarted, it makes God less than the one who can thwart it. THAT is NOT what God says. God said, "choose you this day whom ye will serve." THAT expresses what the will of God is for men to observe; i.e., make a selection from options available, from which to select.

USALV teachers seem to be saying (again, IF i understand their position correctly) that it is the will of God that all men be saved, and that this is the totallity and all that counts of God's will. All those other little expressions of God's will are subject to this as the ultimate expression thereof, and cannot be treated equally as "God's will."

Your conclusion seems to hang on such words as are translated "will" or those that have the meaning of "intent."

THAT does nothing toward explaining how it is that man can "reject" God's instruction, OR that man can "deal treacherously" with God. Yet God time and time again, punishes Israel for exactly that.

Look at the Greek [athetei - eetheteesen]  
Jer 3:20 Surely as a wife (1)treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt (2)treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the LORD.
[(1)athetei Indicative present active 3rd singular verb][(2)eetheteesen indicative aorist active 3rd singular verb]

[atheteemata - eetheteesan]
1 Kings 8:50 And forgive thy people that have sinned against thee, and all their (1)transgressions wherein they have (2)transgressed against thee, and give them compassion before them who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them:
[(1)atheteemata accusative neuter plural noun] [(2)eetheteesan indicative aorist active 3rd plural verb]

2 Chr 36:14 Moreover all the chief of the priests, and the people, (1)transgressed (2)(with transgression) very much after all the abominations of the heathen; and polluted the house of the LORD which he had hallowed in Jerusalem.
[(1)atheteesai aorist active verb infinitive][(2)atheteemata accusative neuter plural noun]  

Jer 12:1 Righteous art thou, O LORD, when I plead with thee: yet let me talk with thee of thy judgments: Wherefore doth the way of the wicked prosper? wherefore are all they happy that (1)deal very (2)treacherously?
[(1)athetountes present active nominaticve masculine plural verb participle]][(2)atheteemata accusative neuter plural noun][NOTE: "deal" as in "REJECT"]

[atheteesai Aorist Active verb infinitive]
2 Chr 36:13 And he also *rebelled against king Nebuchadnezzar, who had made him swear by God: but he stiffened his neck, and hardened his heart from turning unto the LORD God of Israel.

[atheteesei indicative future active 3rd singular verb]
Psalm 132:11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not *turn-from-it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.

Isaiah 48:8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest (1)deal very (2)treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.
[(1)athetwn nominative present active masculine singular verb participle]][(2)athetew indicative future active 2nd singular verb]

[atheteesw Subjunctive aorist active 1st singular verb]
Psalm 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor *alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

[atheteeswsin Subjunctive aorist active 3rd plural verb]]  
Isaiah 63:8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not *lie: so he was their Saviour.

Isaiah 24:16 From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the (1)treacherous dealers have dealt (2)treacherously; yea, the (1)treacherous dealers have dealt very (2)treacherously.
[(1)athetousin present active middle deponent masculine plural verb participle][(2)athetountes present active nominative masculine plural verb participle]
 
Jeremiah 5:11 For the house of Israel and the house of Judah have (1)dealt very (2)treacherously against me, saith the LORD.
[(1)athetwn present active nominative masculine singular verb participle] (2)eetheteesen Indicative aorist active 3rd singular verb]  

[athetew = verb inf aor act = reject, refuse, ignore; make invalid, set aside; break (1  Tm 5.12)  

[atheteesai = Aorist Active Verb Infinitive]
Mark 6:26 And the king was exceeding sorry; yet for his oath's sake, and for their sakes which sat with him, he would not *reject her.

[atheteite = Indicative Present Active Verb]
Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye *reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

[eetheteesan Indicative Aorist Active Verb
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers *rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

[athetei - athetwn]
Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that (1)despiseth you (2)despiseth me; and he that (3)despiseth me (4)despiseth him that sent me.[(1)athetwn = nominative masculine singular present active verb participle][(2)athetei Indicative present active 3rd singular verb][(3)athetwn = nominative masculine singular present active verb participle][(4)athetei Indicative present active 3rd singular verb]

[athetwn = nominative masculine singular present active verb participle]
John 12:48 He that *rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

[atheteesw indicative future active 1st singular verb]
1 Cor 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will *bring-to-nothing the understanding of the prudent.

[athetw Indicative present active 1st singular verb]
Gal 2:21 I do not *frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

[athetei Indicative present active 3rd singuloar verb]
Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man *disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

athetei - athetwn
1 Thes 4:8 He therefore that (1)despiseth, (2)despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit. [(1)athetwn Nominative present active masculine singular verb participle][(2)athetei Indicative present active 3rd singular verb]

[eetheteesan Indicative Aorist Active 3rd plural verb]
1 Tim 5:12 Having damnation, because they have *cast-off their first faith.

[atheteesas Aorist Active Nominative masculine singular verb participle]
Heb 10:28 He that *despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

[athetousin Indicative present active 3rd plural verb]
Jude 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, *despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.


Then you make an error in assigning "Jehovah"s name to the works of Cyrus, king of Persia; recorded in Isa 44:28. Surely you don't suppose Cyrus carried out literally "all of jehovah's will."

This "DESIRE" contention also argues against -- Isaiah 44:28 -- Isaiah 46:10 -- which twice note that YHVH shall do ALL His PLEASURE [CHEPHETS --#H2356 = pleasure/desire]...  

Most of the statement like this are treated as absolutes by USALV teachers, when in reality they are not, but are limited by the parameter of context.

What do you understand to be God's will in the following two contexts?
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.


Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

What say you?

[peacemaker]

Look at the Greek [athetei - eetheteesen]  

[(1)athetei Indicative present active 3rd singular verb]
[(2)eetheteesen indicative aorist active 3rd singular verb]

[(1)atheteemata accusative neuter plural noun]
[(2)eetheteesan indicative aorist active 3rd plural verb]

[(1)atheteesai aorist active verb infinitive]
[(2)atheteemata accusative neuter plural noun]  

[(1)athetountes present active nominative masculine plural verb participle]]
[(2)atheteemata accusative neuter plural noun]

[atheteesai Aorist Active verb infinitive]

[atheteesei indicative future active 3rd singular verb]

[(1)athetwn nominative present active masculine singular verb participle]
[(2)athetew indicative future active 2nd singular verb]

[atheteesw Subjunctive aorist active 1st singular verb]

[atheteeswsin Subjunctive aorist active 3rd plural verb]  

[(1)athetousin present active middle deponent masculine plural verb participle]
[(2)athetountes present active nominative masculine plural verb participle]
 
[(1)athetwn present active nominative masculine singular verb participle]
[(2)eetheteesen Indicative aorist active 3rd singular verb]  

[atheteesai = Aorist Active Verb Infinitive]

[atheteite = Indicative Present Active Verb]

[eetheteesan Indicative Aorist Active Verb]

[(1)athetwn = nominative masculine singular present active verb participle]
[(2)athetei Indicative present active 3rd singular verb]
[(3)athetwn = nominative masculine singular present active verb participle]
[(4)athetei Indicative present active 3rd singular verb]

[athetwn = nominative masculine singular present active verb participle]

[atheteesw indicative future active 1st singular verb]

[athetw Indicative present active 1st singular verb]

[athetei Indicative present active 3rd singuloar verb]

[(1)athetwn Nominative present active masculine singular verb participle]
[(2)athetei Indicative present active 3rd singular verb]

[eetheteesan Indicative Aorist Active 3rd plural verb]

[atheteesas Aorist Active Nominative masculine singular verb participle]

[athetousin Indicative present active 3rd plural verb]

What say you?

Although controversial, people have changed their minds, it's called choice.
However, even though all participate; an active role does not necessarily determine the final outcome.

To be actively for or against something presently, that is the question?

"You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do you."

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Theo...  :welcome:

Wondered when you'd show up!  :laughing7:

willieH: Hello everybody...  :cloud9:

Here is a condensed synopsis of the interaction:

It all grinded to a halt, on the presentation of the word "BOULEMA" as is used in 2 Pet 3:9

These guys heartily argued against UR... and in doing so, ...they maintained that BOULEMA -- #G1014 (or derivitives of it such as BOULE #G1012 -- BOULEUO #G1011), are an INSISTENT and UNALTERABLE communication concerning the "WILL" [purpose/intent] of God.  And that THELO #G2309 / THELEMA #G2307 is merely a (watered down) DESIRE (rather than "WILL") which is often FOILED, FRUSTRATED and THWARTED... by the doings of men...

This is a faulty solution to a mistated [problem. YOU are saying (If I understand correctly) that if God's will can be thwarted, it makes God less than the one who can thwart it. THAT is NOT what God says. God said, "choose you this day whom ye will serve." THAT expresses what the will of God is for men to observe; i.e., make a selection from options available, from which to select.

• (1)  God does not note that His WILL is put into question by any "choice" made by finite beings...


• (2)  That GOD instructs a man to "choose", does not mean that the CHOICE made is actually "made" by the man... The man only enacts the choice... which has already been NOTED by the Declaration of ALL THINGS (which were ALL, yet undone) -- Rom 4:17 -- Isaiah 46:10-11 -- which have already been DECIDED by THAT DECLARATION...  That your hand moves to your forehead to scratch it, does not mean that the hand which is following an UNSEEN COMMAND of the head, ...decided of itself, to scratch the forehead...  :mnah:


• (3)  The WILL of GOD ...IS... stated as a matter of [boulema] DETERMINATION in -- 2 Pet 3:9 -- not to mention the many places that His  [thelema] --- "desired" DETERMINATION is also made AND DONE, as in the "Lord's Prayer" -- Matt 6:18 -- Luke 11:2


• (4)  God would NEVER state something such as His WILL or DESIRE (which emerges from His POSITION of PERFECTION/COMPLETION)... but then, CONFOUND and FOIL His OWN Declaration via the [yet-to-be-done] "free will" doings of MAN...  This is an example of a [eternally frustrated] Kingdom ...DIVIDED AGAINST ITSELF...

IOW... If God has a DESIRE... that DESIRE is one which is ALREADY COMPLETE... that time is TEMPORARILY involved in the DISPLAY of that COMPLETED desire, does not make it COMPLETE... for the "DESIRE" emerges from a COMPLETE BEING which needs no such assistance from time OR men in order to be COMPLETE/PERFECT.

All that "watering down", proposed by (most of) "Christianity", ...concerning the WILL [thelema] of GOD [as a mere "desire" which can be foiled by man], is founded in the SELF CENTEREDNESS of the doctrine they embrace... Which ALWAYS begins with the SELF -- INCLUSION of themselves... :rolleye:  (as was the case on those in which I discussed this matter on the other forum)...

And IN that DECEPTION is found the purposed intent to separate part [MOST] of the WORLD that GOD so [ETERNALLY] LOVED [loves, always will love]... from His WILL that it be SAVED...

USALV teachers seem to be saying (again, IF i understand their position correctly) that it is the will of God that all men be saved, and that this is the totallity and all that counts of God's will. All those other little expressions of God's will are subject to this as the ultimate expression thereof, and cannot be treated equally as "God's will."

Let's face it brother Theo... you do not understand the position of UR "correctly" at all... and you have often displayed here on Tentmaker, that you do not...  :dontknow:

No one has suggested this at all bro... The WILL of the Almighty, is concerned with EVERYTHING within Earthly TIME, as well as the Heavenly realm of ETERNITY... How could ANYONE be arrogant enough to note that ONE ISSUE [UR] is the COMPLETE ESSENCE of the "WILL" of a BEING which we cannot even comprehend?

It is definitely a facet of His WILL, but as far as it being "all that counts of God's will"... no finite has the capacity to know...  And no one here has asserted UR to be the "end-all" of His "WILL"...

Your conclusion seems to hang on such words as are translated "will" or those that have the meaning of "intent."

THAT does nothing toward explaining how it is that man can "reject" God's instruction, OR that man can "deal treacherously" with God. Yet God time and time again, punishes Israel for exactly that.

GOD is about revealing the KNOWLEDGE contained in HIS WORD of GOOD and EVIL... the REJECTION of His instruction or command, is VITAL for the revelation of this knowledge... Do you not know these things, Theo?

One of the principles of the INFINITE YHVH God, is REAPING and SOWING...  Israel REAPED what the SOWED...  Do you not know these things Theo?

This "DESIRE" contention also argues against -- Isaiah 44:28 -- Isaiah 46:10 -- which twice note that YHVH shall do ALL His PLEASURE [CHEPHETS --#H2356 = pleasure/desire]...  

Most of the statement like this are treated as absolutes by USALV teachers, when in reality they are not, but are limited by the parameter of context.

This is just humorous, bro...  It is YOU which endeavor to LIMIT the WORD of God to "context" (don't get me wrong, ...principles of God are valuable to the context in which they are presented, but certainly NOT LIMITED to said "context".  This is a nothing but a form of "IMPRISONMENT" which RELIGIOUS THEOLOGIANS impose on the WORDS of the Almighty, which ARE FREE)

How foolish is this observation... that you would note that the "parameter of context" (assigned by YOU to GOD), would CONFINE the PLEASURE [desires] of GOD to it...  :sigh:

What do you understand to be God's will in the following two contexts?

Honestly, ...do you really want to know Theo?  :dontknow:

Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

That God makes ANY pronouncement... means that it is included in His WORD... which changes NOT...

His WORD never RETURNS VOID unto wherever it has been sent -- Isaiah 55:11 -- NOTHING in the WORD brings "VOID" ... back to the table... NOTHING...

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

This is a REVEALED REPORT which was already determined and DECLARED by YHVH, LONG BEFORE this designation was made KNOWN to men in -- Acts 7:51 -- as well as LONG BEFORE said "resisting" ever took place.  Do you not KNOW these things?  :mshock:

RESISTING of the COMMAND of GOD which enables DISPLAY of the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL... is and was ORDAINED...  it is PART of His WILL that we "resist" the call of the Holy Ghost... for many are called but FEW are chosen... [to hear]... so those who "RESIST", simply do not have possession of an "EAR to HEAR"... 

That MEN were PURPOSELY given to RESIST the COMMAND of GOD... was determined before MAN, or the WORLD, was even created... otherwise, the Savior would not have been SLAIN from its foundation... (before ONE [adam- and all IN HIM] was even available to need that sacrifice, it was already a "done deal")

Rev 13:8-9 -- and ALL that DWELL upon the earth SHALL WORSHIP Him, whose names are not written in the book of Life of the Lamb... SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION of the WORLD... If any man have an EAR... let him HEAR...

What say you?

I just "said"... did you "HEAR", bro?

I hope so...  :Pray:

...willieH  :cloud9: