The WILL of GOD... Can it be "thwarted" by men?

[willieH]

willieH:  Hello to all... :hithere:

Hey... I was in a discussion on another board... and it was contended by some on the board that the WILL of GOD can be FOILED or THWARTED by men...

They argued that many UR supporting verses contain the words THELO or THELEMA, which express the "WILL" of God, more as a "DESIRE" (which can be frustrated by men), ...rather than an INTENT...  :mshock:

I will post a summary of what was said, and what I had to say to them about it... but I would like to invite anyone interested in this subject, to discuss this...

Peace... :Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[jabcat]

Re: The WILL of GOD... Can it be "thwarted" by men?

I'll give'em some translations. 

Ekegusii (Kenya)                           Aa
Emakhua (Africa)                           Kha-
Emdimbich (California USA)                 Gadu
Enga (Papua New Guinea)                    Daá
English (Britain, Australia, America)      No
English (America) [informal]               Nope
English (America) [informal]               Uh-uh
English [Strine dialect] (Australia)       Nut
English [Texan] (Texas United States)      Naw
English [Michigan slang] (Michigan USA)    Nah
English [Michigan slang] (Michigan USA)    No way
English [Middle English] (old Britain)     Na
English [old English] (older Britain)      Nese
[Eskimo, see Inuktitut and Inuttut]
Esperanto (international use)              Ne
Esselen [Henshaw] (California USA)         Me'-tea
Esselen [Henshaw] (California USA)         A'na
Esselen [La Perouse] (California USA)      Maal
Estonian (Estonia)                         Ei
Estonian (Saaremaa Estonia)                Ep
Estonian (Saaremaa Estonia)                Es
Estonian (Viru-Nigula Estonia)             Eiba
Estonian (Võrumaa Estonia)                 Eih
Estonian (Võrumaa Estonia)                 Õih
Etruscan (old Europe)                      Ein
Eudeve (Mexico)                            Quéta
Even (Russia)                              Aan
Even (Russia)                              Aach
Evenki (Russia)                            Aachin
Ewondo (Cameroun)                          Koa

And that's just the E's.

[willieH]

willieH: Hello everybody...  :cloud9:

Here is a condensed synopsis of the interaction:

It all grinded to a halt, on the presentation of the word "BOULEMA" as is used in 2 Pet 3:9

These guys heartily argued against UR... and in doing so, ...they maintained that BOULEMA -- #G1014 (or derivitives of it such as BOULE #G1012 -- BOULEUO #G1011), are an INSISTENT and UNALTERABLE communication concerning the "WILL" [purpose/intent] of God.  And that THELO #G2309 / THELEMA #G2307 is merely a (watered down) DESIRE (rather than "WILL") which is often FOILED, FRUSTRATED and THWARTED... by the doings of men...

This is faulty to begin with, for anything/everything about YHVH is COMPLETE, PERMANENT, PERFECT and UNCHANGING...

He is COMPLETE in ALL aspects... and so even His "desires" (which some theological minds hope to "water down" by proposing the WILL of God as is stated in many UR supporting verses, is an ALTERABLE designation)... are STILL COMPLETE, and STILL PERMANENT... and shall STILL find FULFILLMENT...

Otherwise it can be said that YHVH God has INCOMPLETE and IMPERFECT "desires"... which can be neutralized by beings which HE created, leaving Him FOREVER, ...UNFULFILLED.

IOW... If a "desire" of God goes UNFULFILLED, it is FOREVER or PERFECTLY UNFULFILLED... which in turn renders Him "incomplete" in this capacity...  This is an UNACCEPTABLE [carnally minded] portrayal of one which is ETERNALLY, and PERFECTLY COMPLETE...

I noted to them that "THELEMA" appears translated "WILL" in the Lord's prayer in -- Matthew 6:10 & Luke 11:2 -- and that this "thelo/thelema" arguement which proposes the "WILL/desire" of GOD is something that MAN can THWART or FOIL, is therefore faulty...  

If indeed, they are correct, ...and the "WILL" [desire] of God CAN be resisted, thwarted, and FOILED ...then it could be said that the "THELEMA" [will/desire] as noted in the Lord's prayer [Matt 6:10 / Luke 11:2], (which they proposed can be frustrated by MAN)... could be (and somewhere in eternity, might be) THWARTED in HEAVEN as well... :rolleye:  I don't buy it! :mnah:

This "DESIRE" contention also argues against -- Isaiah 44:28 -- Isaiah 46:10 -- which twice note that YHVH shall do ALL His PLEASURE [CHEPHETS --#H2356 = pleasure/desire]...  

TWO Scriptures which testify that NONE of "His DESIRE" shall go UNDONE (i.e. unfulfilled)...

To state that the PERFECT DESIRE, or WILL of YHVH can be FOILED by man, ...is ERRONEOUS and INEFFECTUAL in concept, as said "desires" have to do with a COMPLETE and PERFECT and ALMIGHTY being...

BOULEMA (or its derivitives such as BOULE, BOULEUO) cannot be used in an "UNCERTAIN" sense, for they assert, PURPOSE and INTENT... these establish a PERMANENT and UNALTERABLE "WILL" [purpose] of God... in their presentation...

So that which is stated in -- 2 Pet 3:9 -- cannot be refuted by SELECTIVE or INCOMPLETE Salvation teachings, which ignore the REASON presented within this verse (and elsewhere) that notes the WILL of GOD is that... He is "NOT WILLING [BOULEMA] that ANY should perish, but that ALL [led by the GOODNESS of God -- Rom 2:4] shall come to REPENTENCE"...

Their "answer" was to kick me off "their board"...  without addressing it...  :sigh:

What do you guys think?  :Chinscratch:

...willieH  :happygrin:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi James...  :cloud9:

Great answer!  :laughhand:

Re: The WILL of GOD... Can it be "thwarted" by men?

I'll give'em some translations. 

Ekegusii (Kenya)                           Aa
Emakhua (Africa)                           Kha-
Emdimbich (California USA)                 Gadu
Enga (Papua New Guinea)                    Daá
English (Britain, Australia, America)      No
English (America) [informal]               Nope
English (America) [informal]               Uh-uh
English [Strine dialect] (Australia)       Nut
English [Texan] (Texas United States)      Naw
English [Michigan slang] (Michigan USA)    Nah
English [Michigan slang] (Michigan USA)    No way
English [Middle English] (old Britain)     Na
English [old English] (older Britain)      Nese
[Eskimo, see Inuktitut and Inuttut]
Esperanto (international use)              Ne
Esselen [Henshaw] (California USA)         Me'-tea
Esselen [Henshaw] (California USA)         A'na
Esselen [La Perouse] (California USA)      Maal
Estonian (Estonia)                         Ei
Estonian (Saaremaa Estonia)                Ep
Estonian (Saaremaa Estonia)                Es
Estonian (Viru-Nigula Estonia)             Eiba
Estonian (Võrumaa Estonia)                 Eih
Estonian (Võrumaa Estonia)                 Õih
Etruscan (old Europe)                      Ein
Eudeve (Mexico)                            Quéta
Even (Russia)                              Aan
Even (Russia)                              Aach
Evenki (Russia)                            Aachin
Ewondo (Cameroun)                          Koa

And that's just the E's.

:laughing7:

[jabcat]

Thought you might like that.  :bigGrin:

We have a thread going "Who is satan".  Makes me want to ask, "Who is God"? and/or "Who do they think God is?"

[jabcat]

Who is God?  Does He hesitate, waver?  Is he weak, doubtful, insecure, indecisive, indeterminate, uncertain, unclear, unconvinced, undecided, undependable, unreliable, unstable, untrustworthy, vacillating, contradictory, inconclusive, feeble, faulty, forceless, ineffective, inept, unbelievable, unprepared, unqualified?

If so, then His will can be thwarted.  Might He let us "go our own way" for awhile to teach us a lesson and ultimately bring us closer to Him?  I think so.  But if God says something's going to be, then I consider it good as done.   :thumbsup:

[Beloved Servant]

Ephesians
1:9 when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose
1:10 for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him.



To thwart God's will is to thwart Christ.
It was tried in the past — they failed.

[jabcat]

And in all their their failing, the Father's will was fulfilled as established from the foundation.  :bigGrin:

[peacemaker]

He is NOT WILLING that ANY should PERISH, but that ALL shall come to REPENTANCE.  :thumbsup:

There cannot be true repentance without divine MERCY.

peacemaker

[claypot]

How can Gods will be thwarted in any way when He works WITHIN His creation to get exactly what He wants? Isn't it Him willing and doing His good pleasure from within our very beings?

For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. phil2.13

cp

[WhiteWings]

ETs are funny people. If you say God isn't in control or all powerfull you are a heretic.
But if you say God is in full control you are a heretic too.
If you say it's God desire to save all but 95% are lost you show Biblical insight.
But if you claim that the will of a all powerful God to save all actually works out you are a heretic.

I think it's good news. All those people on the wide road have thwarted God's will.
And when they are sentenced to LoF they likely won't listen either so they just enter heaven....
You know it has been done before. Satan already tricked 1/3 of the angels and 95% of humanity. It's just a matter of time 100% of creation belongs to satan.

For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. phil2.13
Claypot that must mean God is giving it His best shot. But 95% chance the desire of satan will prevail.
:sigh:

[claypot]

ETs are funny people. If you say God isn't in control or all powerfull you are a heretic.
But if you say God is in full control you are a heretic too.
If you say it's God desire to save all but 95% are lost you show Biblical insight.
But if you claim that the will of a all powerful God to save all actually works out you are a heretic.

I think it's good news. All those people on the wide road have thwarted God's will.
And when they are sentenced to LoF they likely won't listen either so they just enter heaven....
You know it has been done before. Satan already tricked 1/3 of the angels and 95% of humanity. It's just a matter of time 100% of creation belongs to satan.

For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. phil2.13
Claypot that must mean God is giving it His best shot. But 95% chance the desire of satan will prevail.
:sigh:

Excellent post WW and I see what you are saying and how you are saying it and to respond to your last statement I would say that if it is GOD doing the WILLING IN US and the doing, who can thwart it? Only God Himself could and I think He knows about a house divided against itself. Why would He want to thwart Himself anyway?

Like you say WW, people will back up what they believe any way they can, be it logical or not.

cp

[WhiteWings]

Only God Himself could and I think He knows about a house divided against itself.

Even worse that means heaven will end. God's rulership will end/fall.
The original house/kingdom is that of Father. He was the first so it takes not much imagination He got the first house. And that house/kingdom is devided because satan fell  :blahgreen:
So satan's kingdom will prosper because the kingdom of Father fell. It's likely not what ETs agree with, but it is what they believe.
If losing 95% of the kingdom isn't devision I wonder what is. Going from 100% to 5% basicly means God has been dethroned.

Another thing is that God knew what His creation would/will do. If they are really rebelious it means Father created the division of His own kingdom by his devine will.

Many views can be defended when zooming in on them. But most of the views simply contradict.

[WhiteWings]

I assume many ETs daily say these words from the "Lord's Prayer"
^NIVMat 6:10  your kingdom come, your will/thelema be done on earth as it is in heaven..

And they understand it like:
^ETMat 6:10  your kingdom come, possibly the things you want will happen on earth as it is in heaven.


The prayer of worship almost starts with saying that you don't have much trust in His powers.
That doesn't make much sense.

Commentary
NET: Your kingdom come represents the hope for the full manifestation of God's promised rule.
-> If His will is not done He has broken a promise

Gill: Christ says "thy will"; not the will of wicked men, nor the will of Satan, nor a man's own will, but the will of God:
-> Gill is an ET scholar but believes the will of God can't be bend.
-> He adds a twist to it by stating God (also) has a secret will. Ofcourse that allows for hellish things.
-> But even then it means God will is unbendeble.

I've read a few other commentaries on the verse and all ET scholars seem to agree God will can't be thwarted.
Of course they in other commentaries say His will is that most rot in hell. But still ET scholars seem to believe in an unbreakeble will of Father.

This kind of word games can never be won. There is enough to support many opposing views. The only thing to resolve it is aligning all verses. But threads go off-topic much to soon. So no progress will be made.

[claypot]

Hey WW, good thoughts as usual. Let me add what has given me considerable comfort lately.

If it is indeed God who is working in us to do and to will of His good pleasure then I see even our (everyones) endless debating a work of God and it pleases me to be a part of it. It gives me courage and assurance and even the joyful willingness to now debate and lecture and expose and learn and so on. I do not seem to get frustrated like I once did because it is God I am ultimately dealing with, even in my opposers.

Like I said before, if all of us were in the area at the time Josephs brothers threw him into the pit I'm sure some of us would have run to get a ladder and get him out and take care of him thus thwarting Gods intended purpose. I think many of us do this with His words. We think we are right when we are actually working against God but the fact still remains, Joseph, as well as Josephs brothers, were all being worked in by God to do His will and good pleasure.

I am starting to really love those who I feel are abusing me as I see God in them arranging something grand for me.

Do you understand any of what I am trying to say here?

cp

[WhiteWings]

If it is indeed God who is working in us to do and to will of His good pleasure then I see even our (everyones) endless debating a work of God and it pleases me to be a part of it.

So you think God makes all those typos in my posts?  :laughing7:
You must be a marred claypot to think such things :fool:
Seriously now. How far you take that "God works in us?"
Am I talking to claypot or talking to Father? You could ask the same question to me. I just can't believe Father has taken 930 nicknames on this forum and is debating Himself. And because none fully agree it means He's wrong with at least 929 nicks.
I think the answer goes to much into the "free will territory" so perhaps it's better not to answer...

I do not seem to get frustrated like I once did because it is God I am ultimately dealing with, even in my opposers.

Usually I just enjoy finding an answer. Sometimes I feel 'attacked'. I'm still unable to figure out if it feels as my pride/personallity is attacked or that I care for the UR teachings/Father is attacked. That very hard for me to figure out.

Like I said before, if all of us were in the area at the time Josephs brothers threw him into the pit I'm sure some of us would have run to get a ladder and get him out and take care of him thus thwarting Gods intended purpose. I think many of us do this with His words. We think we are right when we are actually working against God but the fact still remains, Joseph, as well as Josephs brothers, were all being worked in by God to do His will and good pleasure.

Wouldn't it be more accurate if you wrote:
"...thus thwarting what we think Gods intended purpose is..."

I am starting to really love those who I feel are abusing me as I see God in them arranging something grand for me.

I think that arrangement has made before the dawn of time.

Do you understand any of what I am trying to say here?

Yes. But it's conflicting for me. How can God arrange something grand for you if you did nothing to earn it. You were just a passive lump of clay turned in a claypot by an active Potter....

[Nathan]

For me WW your confliction there is the very definition of what "grace" is.

[claypot]

That's what makes it so grand and gracious..............because I did nothing to earn it!

cp

[claypot]

 

If it is indeed God who is working in us to do and to will of His good pleasure then I see even our (everyones) endless debating a work of God and it pleases me to be a part of it.

So you think God makes all those typos in my posts?  :laughing7:
You must be a marred claypot to think such things :fool:
Seriously now. How far you take that "God works in us?"

God does not make all the typos, you do. God works in YOU TO DO. There are reasons why you make typos and those reasons are worked by God for His good pleasure.

That's just the point. How far do you take it that God works in us.

Excellent question and one that has amazing projections.

All is out of God, for God and through God.

Am I talking to claypot or talking to Father? You could ask the same question to me. I just can't believe Father has taken 930 nicknames on this forum and is debating Himself. And because none fully agree it means He's wrong with at least 929 nicks.
I think the answer goes to much into the "free will territory" so perhaps it's better not to answer...

No, not free will territory. Just like Joseph being thrown into a pit was done by God via the brothers so are all the wrong answers caused by God via the forum people.

cp

[Paul Hazelwood]

I think the answer goes to much into the "free will territory" so perhaps it's better not to answer...

No free will terminology needed.   A man making a choice of his own will has nothing to do with thwarting Gods will.

When God made you and me, he knew every choice we would ever make,  God prepared the way for them all.   We still made those choices, and God knowing that in advance has nothing to do with us being unable to make those choices, it has nothing to do with God controlling us, it simply is God already knowing what we would do and he prepared for what we would do so that his will to save all man kind was not thwarted at all.


I have comitted evil acts in my lifetime.  God knew I would, he prepared for those acts so his glory would prevail over them just like he did with pharoah.   God did not "react" to me in the sense that he had to figure something else out God prepared the way for the path he already knew I would take.

[CHB]

Think about it. If God knows how many hairs are on our heads he had to have planned for them to be there. If he knows how many hairs are there, he knows how many have fallen out. Think how little and unimportant a little hair is. If God is concerned with a hair how much more concerned is he with our daily decisions. I think God knows and planned every dot and tittle that is written on this forum.

When Jesus said "of mine own self I can do NOTHING", what does nothing mean? In my dictionary it says "a thing that does not exist".

CHB

[claypot]

I think the answer goes to much into the "free will territory" so perhaps it's better not to answer...

No free will terminology needed.   A man making a choice of his own will has nothing to do with thwarting Gods will.

When God made you and me, he knew every choice we would ever make,  God prepared the way for them all.   We still made those choices, and God knowing that in advance has nothing to do with us being unable to make those choices, it has nothing to do with God controlling us, it simply is God already knowing what we would do and he prepared for what we would do so that his will to save all man kind was not thwarted at all.


I have comitted evil acts in my lifetime.  God knew I would, he prepared for those acts so his glory would prevail over them just like he did with pharoah.   God did not "react" to me in the sense that he had to figure something else out God prepared the way for the path he already knew I would take.

Paul, you have just perfectly quoted Phil 2.13 which states it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. You used many more words to do so but you did it.

God knew every decision we would be confronted with because it is His work in us that causes the decisions to arise. He knows what choice we will make because He not only knows every decision we will be confronted with but He knows our own personal make-ups perfectly. He knows all this intimately because it is HE who is working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure and we know He will accomplish His good pleasure perfectly.

You committed evil acts in your time and so did Josephs brothers and they and you will be accountable for those decisions but it is Gods ultimate willing and doing.

Such good words Paul.

cp

[Pierac]

WillieH...  PM me the forum

Paul

[claypot]

Think about it. If God knows how many hairs are on our heads he had to have planned for them to be there. If he knows how many hairs are there, he knows how many have fallen out. Think how little and unimportant a little hair is. If God is concerned with a hair how much more concerned is he with our daily decisions. I think God knows and planned every dot and tittle that is written on this forum.

When Jesus said "of mine own self I can do NOTHING", what does nothing mean? In my dictionary it says "a thing that does not exist".

CHB

CHB, I'm hearin ya. I'm really hearin ya.

The implications are phenomenal.

cp

[WhiteWings]

No free will terminology needed.   A man making a choice of his own will has nothing to do with thwarting Gods will.

When God made you and me, he knew every choice we would ever make,

Agreed.

God prepared the way for them all.

So God forsaw trillions of choices His creation would make and based His plan on those choices?

We still made those choices, and God knowing that in advance has nothing to do with us being unable to make those choices, it has nothing to do with God controlling us, it simply is God already knowing what we would do and he prepared for what we would do so that his will to save all man kind was not thwarted at all.

I can agree with that. But where does the "God works in us" fits in?

To me "God works in us" is an active God.
But in your description God just knows it will work out fine. That's good but also a passive God that just waits instead of "working in us"