Should Church and state be separate?

[SQ]

*Edited removed*.

[Beloved Servant]

Ephesians 5

11 Have nothing to do with the barren unprofitable  deeds  of darkness, but, instead of that, set your faces against them;

12 for the things which are done by these people in secret it is disgraceful even to speak of.

[SQ]

Molly, we're hijacking your thread.  If it's going to keep going (without outright debate) is there something with the OP you want to revisit?  Or are we tuckered out?  You and PaulH have already put a lot of energy into this thread. :sweat:    

Allow me to think out loud.  Is any of this UR related?   :laughing7:      James.

I have noticed I can hijack a thread quicker than a blink of the eye.
I just could not let my thoughs on Nambala go without speaking...Sorry Molly

[jabcat]

SQ and Molly -

I removed my posts, thought I'd just shut up.  By doing so, I may have "messed up" your posting that I see you're now doing - pardon sil vous plait  :mblush:.

[jabcat]

LOL SQ - funny.  Blink of an eye, eh?   :winkgrin:

[Molly]

Molly, we're hijacking your thread.  If it's going to keep going (without outright debate) is there something with the OP you want to revisit?  Or are we tuckered out?  You and PaulH have already put a lot of energy into this thread. :sweat:    

Allow me to think out loud.  Is any of this UR related?   :laughing7:      James.

I dunno.  We found out Thomas Jefferson was a Unitarian at the end of his life.  Is that related to UR? :happygrin:

This isn't my thread, though, although I've gotten a lot out of it.   Seems like UniversalCatholic lobbed a grenade and walked away rofl.

 For me, it is crystal clear what is going on.  I think a lot of people are blindsided and stunned when they hear what is happening in schools, what our children are being taught.  I've only touched on it here, but, believe me, it is being carried on like a war, with strategy, preparation, and a lot of thought.  I'm sure they are just picking certain states for their grand experiment.  In two States, Ct and MA, the decision was made by the judiciary (maybe CA, too?).  In MA, the state legislation blocked the people from voting on it, after the people demanded a referendum,  but phone calls from Ted Kennedy to the legislators prevailed over the people.  Our country is now being run like one big insiders club, and it's a club I, for one, don't want to belong to, and most people are unaware, and just trying to make it through the day with all that's going on with the economy and everything else.  But, our government, our society, our values, are being changed practically overnight.

But, maybe, just maybe, this is God's way of waking us up, making us take a stand.  Call it shock therapy.  lol

[jabcat]

But, maybe, just maybe, this is God's way of waking us up, making us take a stand.  Call it shock therapy.  lol

oh, thought it was your thread...silly me.  Guess I could have checked first. 

What you say above is what I've thought for some time now.  The new heaven and new earth, the next age will be ushered in somehow.  Unless I'm mistaken, all the transitions from one age to another have been brought about with cataclysm, an upheaval, rather than a whimper.  I just keep wondering what's going to occur as we move into the next age, and I really think we either already are, or are about to find out.

[Molly]

But, maybe, just maybe, this is God's way of waking us up, making us take a stand.  Call it shock therapy.  lol

oh, thought it was your thread...silly me.  Guess I could have checked first.  

What you say above is what I've thought for some time now.  The new heaven and new earth, the next age will be ushered in somehow.  Unless I'm mistaken, all the transitions from one age to another have been brought about with cataclysm, an upheaval, rather than a whimper.  I just keep wondering what's going to occur as we move into the next age, and I really think we either already are, or are about to find out.

wow. :mshock:  Sure feels that way.  Brings this to mind--


5According to the word that I covenanted with you when ye came out of Egypt, so my spirit remaineth among you: fear ye not.

6For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;

7And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.

--Haggai 2

[ChuckK3]

I have followed this dialogue all the way through.  One thing seems to be certain, when it comes to 2 people arguing back and forth, I tend to think both sides want to win more than to promote the accuracy of truth.

We all feel strongly about our beliefs, and in my personal experience, an argument can become ungodly if one of the contestants only wants to win the debate, regardless of truth and justice.  I see a lot of people who are well versed in bible knowledge, and a heavy dose of their own interpretation.  But those same people lack the Love of God.  What does it profit a person to have such knowledge and no charity?  I find people who aren't so versed walking in a whole lot more love than those who are.  Why?  Probably because they are walking in the purity of the spirit more than the legality of a letter. 

Contributing to the derailing of this thread :happygrin:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Yet your own point reflects no more of what you say others lack.

[Molly]

when it comes to 2 people arguing back and forth, I tend to think both sides want to win more than to promote the accuracy of truth.

It's a hot topic.

Objection noted.   :happygrin: I was thinking the same thing myself, that I was lacking kindness and patience, and I was feeling badly about it, and then the phone rang with a number I didn't recognize, and I answered it, "who are you and what do you want?"   :mshock:  Scared the person half to death lol.  Turns out I have pneumonia.  So you never know what the other person is going through on here which is why I like to always give people a wide latitude, and I always try to be kind to strangers, even telemarketers.  Sometimes I fail.  I do hear you.

But we are living in the times that try men souls, as they say.  We are going to have to face a lot and be strong.  Anger is a type of strength, but then it has to be channeled into more productive outlets, or it eats you up.

Thanks for bringing it up.

[Beloved Servant]

"Turns out I have pneumonia."
that's was funny Molly.


Truly, I pray you heal soon.

[Paul Hazelwood]

As I see it two people have a passion for what they believe is right.  Never apologize for standing up for what you believe to be right no matter who does not share what you believe.

I've had pneumonia,  your doing much better that I did Molly, I never had the urge to even get on the computer when I had it.  Get well soon.

[Molly]

As I see it two people have a passion for what they believe is right.  Never apologize for standing up for what you believe to be right no matter who does not share what you believe.

I've had pneumonia,  your doing much better that I did Molly, I never had the urge to even get on the computer when I had it.  Get well soon.

Yes, I agree--passion.  We probably actually agree on the principles, just disagree on how they should be achieved.  [Not starting a fight lol]

Walking pneumonia.  I've probably had it for weeks, but it was starting to gain ground so I went for an x-ray.  Thanks to you and Beloved Servant for your prayers.  I'm feeling much better thanks to a pill that could kill anything within a 100 yards.

[Beloved Servant]

and thank you for the laughter — that's twice today!

[Redlettervoice]

Paul,

I wonder if you have seen this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rqw4krMOug

It demonstrates the reason why I try to stay far away from religious groups, particular the ones that insist that I believe everything just as they do.  
Religion can be so creepy.   If we do not insist on having our own freedom of thought, there will always been someone standing by who is eager to "tell you
what truth is" and insisting you believe it (or else!).  

We really are like sheep, made vulnerable to following something or someone.  Each person should respect others' right to follow the spirit of Truth for themselves
and not try to dictate their notions on others.   You would think those who have come into the understanding of UR would have learned that by now, but there is
still a strong tendency even among UR believers to try to control everyone.    This whole world is a lot like an insane asylum.

Anne

p.s.... I think there is a spiritual law that goes something like this: 'So long as you despise the other (those not like yourself)', you cannot be set free from religious prison.  Wasn't that a lot of what kept the Jews in bondage thousands of years ago - despising the foreigner and stranger ?  Isn't that what is causing hell on the earth now?

Oh my, me sister, you remind me of the answer jacob gave when
they ask him how he got it so quickly.  "because the lord brought it to me, that's
how I got it!!!!!"

[Molly]

A City upon a Hill

"Now the only way to avoid this shipwreck and to provide for our posterity is to follow the Counsel of Micah, to do Justly, to love mercy, to walk humbly with our God, for this end, we must be knit together in this work as one man, we must entertain each other in brotherly Affection, we must be willing to abridge ourselves of our superfluities, for the supply of others' necessities, we must uphold a familiar Commerce together in all meekness, gentleness, patience and liberality, we must delight in each other, make others Conditions our own rejoice together, mourn together, labour, and suffer together, always having before our eyes our Commission and Community in the work, our Community as members of the same body, so shall we keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace, the Lord will be our God and delight to dwell among us, as his own people and will command a blessing upon us in all our ways, so that we shall see much more of his wisdom power goodness and truth then formerly we have been acquainted with, we shall find that the God of Israel is among us, when ten of us shall be able to resist a thousand of our enemies, when he shall make us a praise and glory, that men shall say of succeeding plantations: the lord make it like that of New England: for we must Consider that we shall be as a City upon a Hill, the eyes of all people are upon us; so that if we shall deal falsely with our God in this work we have undertaken and so cause him to withdraw his present help from us, we shall be made a story and a byword through the world, we shall open the mouths of enemies to speak evil of the ways of God and all professors for Gods sake; we shall shame the faces of many of God's worthy servants, and cause their prayers to be turned into Curses upon us till we be consumed out of the good land whether we are going: And to shut up this discourse with that exhortation of Moses that faithful servant of the Lord in his last farewell to Israel Deut. 30. Beloved there is now set before us life, and good, death and evil in that we are Commanded this day to love the Lord our God, and to love one another to walk in his ways and to keep his Commandments and his Ordinance, and his laws, and the Articles of our Covenant with him that we may live and be multiplied, and that the Lord our God may bless us in the land whether we go to possess it: But if our hearts shall turn away so that we will not obey, but shall be seduced and worship other gods, our pleasures, and profits, and serve them, it is propounded unto us this day, we shall surely perish out of the good Land whether we pass over this vast Sea to possess it; Therefore let us choose life, that we, and our Seed, may live; by obeying his voice, and cleaving to him, for he is our life, and our prosperity."

--John Winthrop, First Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, 1630

[Nathan]

Hmmm. . . Chuck ya got me thinking . . .
How many times have I been passionate about something to the point that I did more harm than good because of my "passion".  In the delivery of sharing out my heart, am I opening the ears of the deaf?  Or am I cutting the ears off with my swinging of the sword? 

One thing I do try to remind myself from time to time is when I become too passionate, is God resisting?  Or is he giving me grace?  As we all know, he resists the proud and he gives grace to the humble.  If I'm as mature as I assume everyone thinks I am, just how much humility am I presenting in my presentations?  May God have mercy on us all!!

[Molly]

Psalm 127:1
Unless the LORD builds the house, its builders labor in vain. Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain.

[eaglesway]

In the good ol USA we can stand on a street corner still, to this day, and protest our government. Whenever there is freedom there are always going to be interest groups promoting agendas. The responsibility of democracy is that we have to be vocal and active on behalf of our interests and there is nothing wrong with that.

According to the declaration of independence, when government gets to oppressive, the people have the right to react. Revolution is an absolute foundation of democracy. There is no other way to attain it. You cannot impose democracy- as we have discovered in Vietnam and Afghanistan and Iraq. Only if the people truly support it, can we enable it in their defense- as we found in South Korea.

Revolution is also the only way to maintain democracy. The activity of the people is the only way to keep government free of special interest control, where minorities rule against the best interests of general society in order to promote their welfare and influence. Christians have to stand up and be counted, apart from their theological differences- but even more importantly, everyone who walks under the seven Noahide laws, whether Jewish, Islamic or whatever should recognize the greater common ground in our society, preserving the nuclear family through common law and in social support. This is a part of the revelation of God that is demonstrated in creation and written in the heart of everyone so that all are without excuse.(Romans chapters 1 & 2).

I object to the teaching of homosexuality as an alternate lifestyle in schools. Communities are established upon families. So I can say so and make noise about it and vote because that is my right as an American, and because that is how democracy works. Early Christians did not and could not because there were no democracies. Greece and Rome were oligarchies (representation only for the elite wealthy families and intelligentsia.) The United States of America is the first lasting democracy ever established, and now it is on the verge of becoming an oligarchy-(rule by the wealthy elite and intelligentsia).

I can pray about that and cry out to God about it because that is my right as a Christian.

Of course, if there is no freedom in the body of Christ and no revolution for righteousness and justice and equity and mercy among American Christians- then the salt has lost its savor and the preservative is lost. Maybe the fact that we are being tossed out and trampled under the feet of men is the result of our own apostasy. 

If the salt has lost its savor......

The only theocracy I want to be under is one that Jesus is ruling. They used to persecute Universalists, and anyone else who disagreed with them in England, France, Spain, Germany, Denmark, Holland, Italy- you paid the price for your beliefs in blood and imprisonment and confiscation of your property. Calvin, Knox and Luther were terrible oppressors as was Rome. I prefer the natural pressures and responsibilities of representative government to being ruled by religionists or humanists or any other ideologue. All I can say to people who are worried about where this country is going is MAKE NOISE. Use your voice.

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
(2Ch 7:14)

[Molly]

The only theocracy I want to be under is one that Jesus is ruling. They used to persecute Universalists, and anyone else who disagreed with them in England, France, Spain, Germany, Denmark, Holland, Italy- you paid the price for your beliefs in blood and imprisonment and confiscation of your property. Calvin, Knox and Luther were terrible oppressors as was Rome.

True.

However, things were mostly handled differently in the New World.   When Roger Williams ran afoul of the Massachusetts Puritans, instead of allowing himself to be deported, he simply pulled up stakes, went south,  and founded Rhode Island.  That way, both groups maintained freedom of religion.


He preached first at Salem, then at Plymouth, then back to Salem, always at odds with the structured Puritans. When he was about to be deported back to England, Roger fled southwest out of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, was befriended by local Indians and eventually settled at the headwaters of what is now Narragansett Bay, after he learned that his first settlement on the east bank of the Seekonk River was within the boundaries of the Plymouth Colony. Roger purchased land from the Narragansett Chiefs, Canonicus and Miantonomi and named his settlement Providence in thanks to God. The original deed remains in the Archives of the City of Providence.

[Molly]

Poland is mourning the loss of its leadership as Polish President Lech Kaczynski's plane crashes near Katyn in Western Russia where he, the first lady and a large delegation were going to be part of Katyn commemoration. The president is dead. None of the 132 passengers survived.





The Katyn massacre, also known as the Katyn Forest massacre (Polish: zbrodnia katyńska, 'Katyń crime'; Russian: Катынский расстрел), was a mass murder of Polish nationals imprisoned by the Soviet NKVD, based on a proposal from Lavrentiy Beria to execute all members of the Polish Officer Corps. Dated 5 March 1940, this official document was then approved (signed) by the entire Soviet Politburo including Joseph Stalin and Beria.[1][2][3] The number of victims is estimated at about 22,000, the most commonly cited number being 21,768.[4] The victims were murdered in the Katyn Forest in Russia, the Kalinin and Kharkov prisons and elsewhere.[5] About 8,000 were officers taken prisoner during the 1939 Soviet invasion of Poland, the rest being Polish doctors, professors, lawmakers, police officers, and other public servants arrested for allegedly being "intelligence agents, gendarmes, saboteurs, landowners, factory owners, lawyers, priests, and officials."[4] Since Poland's conscription system required every unexempted university graduate to become a reserve officer,[6] the NKVD was able to round up much of the Polish intelligentsia, and the Russian, Ukrainian, Protestant, Muslim Tatar, Jewish, Georgian,[7] and Belarusian intelligentsia of Polish citizenship.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

[Molly]

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
~ Thomas Jefferson

http://constitutingamerica.org/



"Let us do 90 readings in 90 days – as 90 plus 90 equals 180! Let us turn around, do a 180, and seek the history that holds the key to our future. Let us read the United States Constitution and the Federalist Papers in 90 days, 5 days for the Constitution and 85 days for the 85 Federalist Papers. Read it with your children at the dinner table or before bed. It will only be about three pages a night. Let us have a national discussion one day at a time, one paper at a time, for 90 days at www.constitutingamerica.org Let's start on April 20th. Let's do 90 in 90 and do a 180 – back to the history that yields our future."

[firstborn888]

Parents have no choice or say in the matter.

Sure they do - don't send them to the government school. If parents are so concerned why send them to be educated by the government? It's NOT the governments job in the first place. Government BY LAW and constitution cannot be partial on religious grounds - you know this.

[Molly]

Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure than they have it now, They may change their Rulers and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty. They will only exchange Tyrants and Tyrannies.

--John Adams, Letter to Zabdiel Adams (21 June 1776)



Yesterday the greatest question was decided which ever was debated in America; and a greater perhaps never was, nor will be, decided among men. A resolution was passed without one dissenting colony, "that these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, free and independent States."

--John Adams, On the decision to proclaim independence from British rule, which was made on 2 July 1776, in a letter to Abigail Adams (3 July 1776), published in The Adams Papers : Adams Family Correspondence (2007) edited by Margaret A. Hogan



The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epocha in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival. It ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forevermore.

--John Adams, Letter to Abigail Adams (3 July 1776); because of the official adoption of the United States Declaration of Independence two days later, the fourth of July rather than the second, became known as the US Independence Day.

you know this

It was never the intent of the founders that the States would be controlled in matters of religion the way the federal government was controlled.  The States belong to the people.  The States each have their own independent Constitutions. And, they would never have signed the U.S. Constitution had they thought otherwise.  The intent was for the States to remain, each one, "free and independent".  The intent of the 'establishment clause' in the US Constitution was to reign in the Federal Govt and allow the States to maintain their freedom and independence in all matters, including religion.