Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ - and ditches on both sides

[jabcat]

With some recent discussions that have been going on, I had a thought occur to me - true Christian, Biblical Ultimate Reconciliation is somewhere between extremes. Let me explain.
　
Recently someone said "what's the difference between what you're saying and 'fundamentalism'?" I think there are multiple things to consider.
　
It seems to me there is orthodoxy on one end. Some of its favorite buzz words and phrases are; eternal separation, hell, eternal torment, hopelessly forever lost, streets of gold, rapture...
　
On the other end is the ooey-gooey New Age, uber-liberal relativism. Some of its favorite buzz words and phrases/thought processes are; love is all you need, God understands and there is no punishment/[discipline], the scriptures are optional or untrue so live by what seems right/makes sense to you/feels best, Jesus is nice but not the only way to the Father...
　
So it seems to me, true Christian, Biblical Ultimate Reconciliation - which Gary calls The Victorious Gosple of Jesus Christ - falls somewhere between those 2 extremes. The scriptures are believed and trusted, yet there is an understanding there have been misconceptions, mistranslations, misunderstandings, and misinformation through the years that need to be reconsidered. Some of the same words and phrases are used (because they're in the Bible - more specifically THE ORIGINAL GREEK AND HEBREW as White Wings recently pointed out) - words like torment, fire, heaven, grace, love - but also other words stressed such as aion, age, gehenna, divine purification, etc. Regarding the "same words and phrases", there is a push to understand what those words really mean, not how orthodox religion has interpreted and taught them to mean; while with the "other words and phrases", there is an attempt to see the truths in the scriptures that have been hidden through the past 1500 years, and that if properly factored in and understood, altogether can make a HUGE difference in doctrine and approach. 
　
If at least most of the above summary is accurate, does it surprise you that so many who are unhappy with typical organized religion, still have problems accepting the scriptures and really wanting to live by what God says He wants (as best we can understand)?
　
Why do you think so many leave organized, institutionalized religion, and then really wander around out there "all over the place" - sometimes leaving one extreme just to drift over to the other - when there seems to be (in my humble, limited thinking) a really good option somewhere in the middle? Rebellion? Blindness? Part of a "natural" process that will eventually correct? I would imagine it's some and/or all of that and more, but I thought it might be something you'd like to discuss.
　

[WhiteWings]

Why do you think so many leave organized, institutionalized religion

Of course you can say because it's part of Gods plan.
A more secular answer is: Grab your history book and show me empires that lasted 1 century. 2 centuries. etc. Most empires crumble quite soon. The Roman empire collapsed too. But some say it just transformed.
Constantine transformed the Roman military empire into the Roman Catholic empire.
That empire still exists but is quickly dying since the 60's
(I see all denomination that originated from RCC as part of that empire)
Why? Bad leadership? Signs of time?

If at least most of the above summary is accurate, does it surprise you that so many who are unhappy with typical organized religion, still have problems accepting the scriptures and really wanting to live by what God says He wants (as best we can understand)?

It's more than just being unhappy.
It's education/science too. Many believed in 6x24 hour creation. Age of the earth being 6000-10000 years. The earth is flat. That was easy in the beginning. Noone opposed that. So no reason to see flaws in the teaching of church. But then the problems started. People like columbus sailed to the USA. Not long before it was believed one would fall of the earth when going to far to the horizon. Other science evolved. And bit by bit the claims in the Bible seems to be wrong. All due to translation imo but that's a whole other discussion. Transport got faster. Bookprinting much cheaper. Cultures and literature started to mix. Again proof other (sometimes highly educated) people had other views than mr. Pastor.
Religion got a less and less prominent place in school.
So Jabcat I think there is no answer but many big and small reasons.

[WhiteWings]

The scriptures are believed and trusted, yet there is an understanding there have been misconceptions, mistranslations, misunderstandings, and misinformation through the years that need to be reconsidered. Some of the same words and phrases are used (because they're in the Bible - more specifically THE ORIGINAL GREEK AND HEBREW as White Wings recently pointed out) - words like torment, fire, heaven, grace, love - but also other words stressed such as aion, age, gehenna, divine purification, etc. Regarding the "same words and phrases", there is a push to understand what those words really mean, not how orthodox religion has interpreted and taught them to mean; while with the "other words and phrases"

ETs often accuse UR people that we have to redefine words to make our theory work.
For starters I think many don't even know the Biblw was written in Hebrew/Greek. I think many believe it was Latin. Or even English when the HS inspired the KJV translators.

The only meaning of a word that counts is the meaning that the word had to the person that it was spoken too (by HS).
So I think UR is not about redefining meaning of words, but a new attempt to understand the words.
Science progresses. Reading old languages is science too. I wrote this before in another thread but during the KJV translation 700+ words found in the NT Greek had a unknown meaning. So the KJV translators had a big problem. They had to guess the meaning of words. It's fine to let scripure interpretet scripture. But if you verify a wrong word with another wrong word things get bad. Later a truckload secular documents written during Jesus' time were found.
They acted as a dictionary. I think that was one of the main sparks for UR.

[WhiteWings]

Part of the forword from the translators of the "Christian Bible"
Personal thought: If the menaing of words was not fully known until 1895 what about the many UR books that predate that year?


Introduction
This Bible is the most accurate and literal translation of the
"New Testament" into plain English in over 450 years. Its does NOT
contain any of the following words: Jesus, Christ, lord, church,
bishop, archbishop, cardinal, deacon, elder, overseer,
pastor, preacher, minister, evangelist, presbyter, apostle,
brethren, priesthood, disciple, saint, sinner, clergy,
layman, baptize, christen, tithe, sacrament, absolution,
penance, atonement, confession, communion, tabernacle,
rapture, dispensation, administration, Scripture, Lent,
Easter, Christmas, Hell, Hades, Devil, sin, evil, holy, soul,
angel, archangel, forever, eternal, advent, crucify, cross,
gospel, evangel, epistle, righteous, grace, ye, thee, thou,
thine, bide, bestow, repent, exult, abhor, blaspheme, yea,
covet, abide, lust, beget, yearn, avow, travail, verily,
thence, sovereign, wanton, wretched, devout, oracle,
herald, precept, psalm, manifest, statute, sepulcher,
vesture, wreath, Gentile, patriarch, prostitute, proselyte,
scribe, sojourner, trangressor, Sanhedrin, synagogue,
vengeance, adultery, vexation, abomination, or vilification.
The New Contract Writings ("New Testament") were written in the
Greek language. However it wasn't the Classical Greek of Aristotle;
rather, they were written in Koine ("Coin-A" or everyday) Greek, which
was the everyday language used by almost everyone during the First
Century A.D. in conversation and commerce throughout the Roman
Empire. Our Savior talked plainly to people, the way we would talk to
one another. Therefore, plain everyday English has been used in this
Bible to properly translate the everyday Greek that the writers used,
instead of using the religious and theological terms found in the other
Bible translations, which distort the original meaning.
The translators of the King James Version (KJV) were unaware of
the differences between Koine Greek and Classical Greek. The relevant
manuscripts had not yet been discovered. As late as 1886 Joseph Henry
Thayer could still list 767 distinctively "New Testament" words with no
known parallels in any known Greek literature. But now, because of
recent discoveries and research over the past 100 years, well over 99%
of the words of the New Contract Writings have been found in other
Greek literature. Moreover, in 1611 the KJV translators followed the
syntax of Classical Greek; but we now know that the Greek of the New
Contract Writings corresponds syntactically to Koine Greek. This makes
a tremendous difference in how many words and phrases are translated.
Until 1895 the language of the New Contract Writings was known
as "Tired Greek," "Bad Greek," "Jewish Greek," "Biblical Greek," "New
Testament Greek," or "Holy Ghost language," because it was different
from Classical Greek. But in 1895 (284 years after the KJV was first
published) the Greek and Bible Scholar Adolf Deissmann discovered
that the New Contract Writings were written in Koine (everyday) Greek.While studying some recently discovered collections of nonliterary
documents, he suddenly recognized a great similarity between what he
was reading there and what he was accustomed to reading in the
Greek New Contract Writings. These nonliterary documents that he was
studying were many different types of legal documents, business letters,
personal letters, love letters, diaries, horoscopes, magic formulas, etc.
However, even though almost a century has passed since this universally
accepted great discovery, not until now has a translation into true
everyday English been accomplished.
In translating the original words of God's Pure Spirit, we have taken
great care to find those exact English words that tell God's Message both
simply and precisely. Also, because some traditional "religious" words
do not teach the root meanings of the original Greek text, a special effort
was made to translate these terms into exact expressions which can be
understood by everyone, especially by those who have never read the
Bible.
This Bible may seem quite revolutionary and radical because of its
many improvements over the KJV and the other Bible translations; and
yet, when these numerous improvements are taken individually, they
each have substantial acceptance among reliable Greek Scholars who
have thoroughly researched these individual items. While there are
"experts" who will hold to their traditions from the "Dark Ages," and
who would disagree with some of these improvements, none of these
improvements are far-out ideas that have been dreamed up by a group
of misguided scatterbrains.
While translating from one language to another is not a pure science
but is also-;n art, that doesn't mean that one shouldn't try to do it as
scientifically or analytically as possible! A purely artistic translator is
most concerned with what is"beautiful and tasteful to him as he produces
what he has preconceived in his mind. As he merrily translates along, he
will paraphrase or interpret the original to meet his preconceived notions.
If while translating he comes across the exact same sentence separated
by several pages, he will likely translate the two slightly different. The

[jabcat]

The only meaning of a word that counts is the meaning that the word had to the person that it was spoken too (by HS).
So I think UR is not about redefining meaning of words, but a new attempt to understand the words.

:thumbsup:

[rosered]

The only meaning of a word that counts is the meaning that the word had to the person that it was spoken too (by HS).
So I think UR is not about redefining meaning of words, but a new attempt to understand the words.

:thumbsup:

:thumbsup:   :icon_flower:

[Molly]

However, even though almost a century has passed since this universally
accepted great discovery, not until now has a translation into true
everyday English been accomplished..

Something happened at the end of the 19th century.  Great advances were being made in science, technology, biology, in our understanding of the physical world--and now this, a true translation of God's word?

It doesn't surprise me.  Everything was opening up and somebody shut it all down for a hundred years.  But, now, we have another chance.

He is a God of redemption.

[CHB]

WW,

You are a walking breathing library.  :happy3:

CHB

[WhiteWings]

But still I have problems with this part.

The translators of the King James Version (KJV) were unaware of
the differences between Koine Greek and Classical Greek. The relevant
manuscripts had not yet been discovered.

KJV translation couldn't be perfect because the transaltor simply didn't have info enough. That possible ler to a ETish translation

As late as 1886 Joseph HenryThayer could still list 767 distinctively "New Testament" words with no known parallels in any known Greek literature.

Still 767...
I wonder how many more unknown words there were during the KJV translation.
Andrew Jukes is Martin's favorite UR writer. Jukes died in 1901. So it's safe to say Jukes wasn't aware of most of the 767 words. If during the translation of KJV there were 2000 unknown words I can understand Jukes supported UR instead of ET.
Youngs Literal Translation is of 1898. Certainly no ET Bible.

But now, because of recent discoveries and research over the past 100 years, well over 99% of the words of the New Contract Writings have been found in other Greek literature. Moreover, in 1611 the KJV translators followed the syntax of Classical Greek; but we now know that the Greek of the New Contract Writings corresponds syntactically to Koine Greek.

I wonder when "recent" was.
And more important what the most important words/discoveries are

[Molly]

Can you give us a link, ww?

[WhiteWings]

A link to what Molly?
If a link to the stuff posted in Reply#3.. I can't.
It's text from a Bible that only exists in printed format AFAIK.
I don't know any similar info.
I'm gonna ask mr Google.

[Molly]

How about a link to where you buy the Bible?  You've given that before.

[jabcat]

I was working on this when you posted, Molly;  If anyone is interested in obtaining The Christian Bible (1991) it is available by snail mail only.  It is apparently run by a "simple people" (whatever that means), and is a small operation.  I really have wanted to help somehow to improve their operation/getting the Word out, I may contact them by mail and ask them about it.

Anyway, there was a group of individuals that worked for 16 years, at their own expense...they lived very frugally, "sacrificing much" to do the translation.  Some if not all ended up with no jobs, no electricity, basically lived to do this translation.  And it was apparently transformational in their own lives, changing what they believed when they realized what the early manuscripts really said.

Ordering info;  This 480 page New Testament in a sturdy, gold, hard cover can be purchased for $20.00 with no tax or shipping charge. Its 704 page Companion Reference Guide (which includes an exhaustive concordance) is $25.00, or you can order both together for only $39.00. To order just send your check, cash, or money order to: Christian Bible Society, P. O. Box 530, Mammoth Spring, AR 72554.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7876.msg91795#msg91795

[WhiteWings]

http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/greek-3/msg00147.html

As I understand it, there are three major characteristics of Koine
Greek that mark it as distinct from Classical Greek. 1) Many words
had changed meaning; 2) the grammar was simplified; and 3)
expressions were phrased with greater clarity. (See Wallace, 9P11 for
greater detail.)

=> KJV is translated as if the NT was written Classical Greek instead of Koine Greek

New Testament
The New Testament (NT) when it quotes the OT, quotes mostly from the LXX which was the Bible of the NT church. From Alexander the Great onward Classical Greek became the most important language. At the time of the NT an easier "Koine" Greek was spoken which the NT is written. Before other ancient Greek manuscripts were discovered, it was thought that the NT was written in a special Holy Ghost language. The gospel of Matthew was most likely originally written in Aramaic then translated back into Greek. This would explain the similarities and differences it has with the other gospels. See web site New Testament Greek for resources.

There are about 5,000 Greek manuscripts which contain part or all of the NT. There are three different kinds of manuscripts: (1) papyri, (2) uncials (written in large capital Greek letters), and (3) minuscules (written in small Greek letters). There are also three different text types: (1) Western, (2) Caesarean, and (3) Byzantine.

The two most important collections of papyri were obtained by Mr. Chester Beatty of London in 1930-31 and by Mr. Martin Bodmer of Geneva in 1955-56. The oldest know papyrus fragment of the NT is p52 which contains John 18:31-33, 37-38. It was obtained by Bernard Grenfell in Egypt around 1920. It was discovered by C.H. Roberts in 1934 among other papyri in the John Rylands Library at Manchester (Metzger 1964, 38).

The two most important uncials are a and B. A is also know as codex Sinaiticus since it was discovered at the monastery of St. Catharine on Mount Sinai by Dr. Constantin von Tischendorf in 1844. B is also called codex Vaticanus because it is housed in the great Vatican Library at Rome. Both date to about the 4th century AD. Another important discovery were Greek papyri at Oxyrhynchus, Egypt.

Codex Sinaiticus
In 1844 Konstantin von Tischendorf discovered 43 leaves of a fourth-century Greek manuscript of the Old Testament in a wastebasket in Saint Catherine's Monastery at the foot of Mount Sinai. He returned in 1859 to find another fourth-century Greek manuscript that contained the only complete New Testament in uncial now called Codex Sinaiticus (Aleph). It is now in the British Museum. In 1975 eight more pages of Genesis were found inside one of the monastery's wall. Some scholars think Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus were among the 50 copies that Emperor Constantine commissioned Eusebius to have

Codex Vaticanus
Another important uncial is called codex Vaticanus, or B because it is housed in the great Vatican Library at Rome. It also dates to about the 4th century AD. Not until 1889-90 was a photographic facsimile made.

Oxyrhynchus Papyri
In 1897 B.P. Grenfell, Hunt and Hogarth started excavating for papyri in Egypt. At Oxyrhynchus they dug for 13 seasons to 1909. They discovered thousands of Greek texts including fragments of the Gospels, Acts, Pauline Epistles, General Epistles, and Revelation. It was the village dumps where they found basketfuls of papyri. So far 3875 documents  have been published in the series entitled Oxyrhynchus Papyri.


That's all I can find.
I always mention KJV, but the way I understand all older Bibles are affected.
The fry hard ETs always see any change from the KJV 1611 as blasphemy.
I think the changes come from the fact that all scholars worth their salt are fully aware of the things mentioned above.

[WhiteWings]

How about a link to where you buy the Bible?  You've given that before.

The site is dead now. Their ordering email adress was dead a year earlier :-)
Molly If you wish I can scan and post a few pages. Just tell me what pages you prefer.
Somehow it very literal but it 'flows' like modern English.

[Universalist Catholic]

I was in that same boat too.  I was originally a Universalist, but then got bombarded by some bible thumpers, with their whole hard core exclusivism, human nature is wicked, we are deserving of nothing but eternal punishment, anti-gay propaganda, and all the anti-science propaganda they were promoting.  I began to think that the bible was very dangerous if you did not have some church leaders interpret the unpleasant scriptures.  So I started getting this overappreciation of Catholicism, since they did not take the bible literally, accepted science, along with the belief in the possibility of salvation to people of other religions.  But I soon found out that their teachings were nearly as bad as those "bible believing".  Unfortunately with Catholicism, I was expected to accept all their Dogma like a good boy like the fundamentalists, only authority also came from the Vatican to decide what was truth and what was not.  But I had been so brainwashed into thinking that the Catholic Church was the fullness of truth, and could not error on anything.  But the more I kept reading into Catholic teachings, the less they were making sense to me, let alone to accept obediently.  The biggest problematic teaching I was having with both Catholicism, and Fundamentalism was the doctrine of Eternal Hell.  I ended up turning into a New Age Religious Pluralist, and Relativist,(If casting someone into unbearable torment for all eternity is not wrong, than nothing is).  This whole legalistic Catholicism caused me to have an anxiety disorder.  So once I had started renouncing Catholic Doctrine, the anxiety went away, and lead me to becoming an agnostic, and eager to prove that religion was nothing but another system like Government and Corporations, as manmade organizations more concerned about controlling everyone through fear tactics and were major social diseases.  So I got involved in some mindless spirituality, where I had lost interest in the bible, but felt like something was missing.  After spending much time trying to disprove organized religion, I had began to discover the biblical truth of Universalism.  Gradually, I became more warm towards Christ, after relearning the power of the cross.

[jabcat]

Gradually, I became more warm towards Christ, after relearning the power of the cross.

:thumbsup:      :bowing:

[noname]

I think we just complicate matters...for me its simple, hear Jesus' words and do them

all this talk about translations, words, etc etc does it really mean anything?

[WhiteWings]

I think we just complicate matters...for me its simple, hear Jesus' words and do them

all this talk about translations, words, etc etc does it really mean anything?

Yes it's of extreme importance.
How can you act according to Jesus' words if you have no clue what He said because of translation errors or other reasons that cloud His teachings?

[noname]

I think we just complicate matters...for me its simple, hear Jesus' words and do them

all this talk about translations, words, etc etc does it really mean anything?

Yes it's of extreme importance.
How can you act according to Jesus' words if you have no clue what He said because of translation errors or other reasons that cloud His teachings?

Jesus' words are plain and clear in the Gospels...anything that differs from that just leads to confusion
all His parables have the same message of the path to Salvation and the words he spoke directly to people are easily understandable and clear

but there are a few tests we can do to assure that we are hearing the right messsage, for instance, we can look at the authors of the NT and understand their relation to Jesus...the Gospel authors of Matthew and John were apostles, 2 of the 12...their words always agree with the teachings of our Lord...the books of James and Jude (both brothers of Jesus and also the 1st and 3rd caretaker of the first church in Jerusalem) align perfectly with His message...the same with the books written by Peter who established the first gentile churches in Rome and Antioch

[WhiteWings]

but there are a few tests we can do to assure that we are hearing the right messsage,

That's no longer simply listening and imo (almost) always leads to meaning of words.

[noname]

but there are a few tests we can do to assure that we are hearing the right messsage,

That's no longer simply listening and imo (almost) always leads to meaning of words.

okay...what i mean is...it depends on who is giving you the info...who's words would you trust more?....one that has been with Jesus since the beginning, witnessed his ministry, baptism, death and resurrection...or one that has received 2nd hand knowledge of all this? which one would be the more credible witness?

[WhiteWings]

The problem is that there is no 1st hand info anymore.
AFAIK all the original writings are lost. On top of that there are translation issues.
I admit it's quite unlikely  :winkgrin: but suppose a blu-ray disc is found on which Luke filmed all Jesus' teachings. That's prime quality info directly from the source. Also assume all Christians agree is the real deal. Do you think Christianity merges into one agreeing denomination? I don't.
Even if the HS subbed the recording in 21st century English I'm sure nothing changes for the better.
When Jesus says "all will be saved" the URist will say "See! ALL" and the Calvinist will reply "Yes, all 150 people present at that sermon."

It seems you are the one with the greater hope  :laughing7:

[eaglesway]

     I've said this before, but I came to the understanding of ultimate universal reconciliation from reading Colossians 1:16-20; Ephesians chapter 1; Peters proclamation in Acts chapter 3; Pauls summarry at the end of Romans 11 and 1 Corinthians 15, 1 Jn 2:1,2 etc......all in my beloved but seriously flawed KJV bible. The only words that mattered much to me(translation wise) were aion/aionion/olam and hell/sheol/gehenna. Once I saw the plan of God, the "administration suitable to the fulness of times", I was a few word studies away from freedom.

   However, as Universalist Catholic shared earlier, the attacks of fundie bible thumpers held me in check for a while. There is great resistance to the Victorious Gospel. Satan desires to hold men in ignorance. There is spiritual warfare. We are embattled, but we are called and chosen to declare the good news(eu-aggelo) of God's good will(eu-dokia)towards men in the face of all opposition. Of course, if the evil one can lead us off into either one of the ditches of to the side of the road that Jabcat proposed in his post, he can still win, albeit temporarily-because God will triumph over all.
 
  ETers have to close their eyes to a large number of clear verses that declare the salvation of all. The God of this world has blinded their eyes so that they cannot receive the light of the knowledge of the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. New Agers also have had their eyes blinded by the god of this world, not recognizing the centrality of Christ in creation, desolation, redemption and restitution of all things. The road is still narrow and their are still few who find it. The Holy Spirit is still bearing witness to all who will listen. The evil one is still working over time to defile the "good news of glad tidings to all." Sometimes I over emphasize the value of debate and try to convince people into something they need to be prayed into.

But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
(2Ti 2:23-26)

Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
(Jas 3:13-18)

While I love to discuss the blurry areas among believers who are sharing perspectives in fellowship, I find every time I get dogmatic or press my point against another dogmatist- fractures erupt all over the place and fruit is rarely born.

I do believe that the unity of the faith will eventually be manifested in a remnant. As the Bride comes down from heaven, as we all come to the "unity of the faith, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature of the son of God". I believe the second coming will be ushered in by a revelation of the Bride and the birthing of "many sons unto glory".

When lightning strikes, negative ions on the ground build up as positive ions build up in the sky. When the growing column of negative ions and the growing column of positive ions connect- BLAM! A burst of light and power is released. Pray brothers and sisters, pray. :HeartThrob:

[Universalist Catholic]

Now I want to make sure I explain that I believe that the Bible can be a very dangerous book if in the wrong hands.  We see evidence of how the bible was misused by the Ku Klux Klan, Slaveholders, shovenists, terrorists who bomb abortion clinics, medieval Kings and Popes, the crusades, The Westboro Baptist Church, and probably many other so called bible movements. 
Eaglesway: Could you give me some scriptures about Satan trying to keep people ignorant?  I have heard attacks on the bible promoting Ignorance by the example of Genesis "If you eat of the tree of knowledge, you shall have your eyes opened to good and evil".