eternal damnation - an appealing doctrine?

[sven]

I wrote this in another forum, I am interested to hear your opinions:

As strange as it may sound, eternal damnation may have even an appealing and romantic notion.

It may be appealing for the human ego that man can determine his eternal destiny, eternal damnation is the epitome and the deadly beacon of human free will and emancipation that triumphs over the divine volition and defeats the work of Christ, though for a horrible price.

It may have a romantic notion, for it gives this life eternal importance, any good deed might be of eternal value, it gives you the possibilty to save your beloved ones from eternal perdition and the uttermost doom, how appealing might that be to the human ego to believe to have saved somebody from this doom. It provides the source for tales and legends, novels, comics, movies and videogames; e.g. Dante's Inferno. It inspires the fantasy of men and satisfies their morbidity and their desire for vengeance; portraits of hell have always been more popular then portraits of paradise.

Some people love danger, and life without the threat of eternal damnation is ultimately a safe life (as one should expect a good father to care for), so the restoration of all things limits the adventurousness of life and the emancipation of man, which some people do not like.

[CHB]

Hi sven,

Sounds like a suspense movie doesn't it and I like a good suspense movie but some are just too gross like this one.

CHB

[WhiteWings]

I think the romance will quicly wear of if the lava is flowing out of your ears  :laughing7:

I think your story only sounds just and romantic to those who are sure they don't have to endure that romance.....


Sven,

To complete your story add a final chapter.
Because Father is loving and tender He grants our wish of eternal torture.
God is just!  :bowing: :notworthy:

[Dallas]

Hey sven,

I think alot of the points you touched on are quite sound. Most people are self-involved and any opprotunity given increase self-goodness either positive or selfless produces withion them a sense or righteousness.

I would agree that the idea of saving someone, being the hero, is quite prevelent....

I would also say that idea that "I am going to heaven and you aren't" also produces a sense of person value superiority. "If Im in and you aren't" gives people the feeling or right of being better than others. It's quite prevelant in the idea that unbelievers are bad...but once thay are saved than they are good too.

[gky]

Hello Sven,

Really good point.  I believe this IS one key emotional/psychological motive behind the fetish of the doctrine of ET.  UR thoroughly diffuses the artificial crisis/urgency presented
by ET. Those who presume to have the upper hand ("Christians" self-absorbed in
their own righteousness/superiority) becomed disarmed. Removing such a delusional
sense of leverage leaves the self-righteous, smug, religious heart outraged. As articulated in this discussion, that throws EVERYONE into the same pool, removing all
possibilities of self-proclaimed heroics.

WhiteWings and Dallas make really good (and scary) points.
Didn't Jesus say something to the affect that by the measure we judge, by that we shall be judged?   

I understand a life-long battle with anger.  My wife has told me a few times something
to this affect -  if I had nothing left to be angry about, I wouldn't know what to do with
myself. It's as if I'm comfortable with being angry. Well UR poses a similar "threat" to the fetish of ET.   

The dogmatic insistence upon the doctrine of ET seems to feed 2 characteristics.
1. Eternal unforgiveness - that is, a gloating over the prospect of an "enemy"
       suffering for eternity - that to me sounds like unforgiveness of the worst kind.
       For many Christians, "enemies" aren't just Adoph Hitler, but it's the boss at
       work, the bully at school, the ACLU, the guy that cuts people off on the freeway.
2. Self-aborsbsion and Pride - that one is "better" than most because one "decided to
       follow Jesus", believed, did the "right things" when 97 of everyone God created
       didn't get this right - allegedly.

I liked the word you used - "romanticized" ET.
How many books, movies, etc (Christian or non-Christian) AND "CHRISTIAN" CHURCHES would exist without this prospect?

[Syndicated]

Most people are self-involved and any opprotunity given increase self-goodness either positive or selfless produces withion them a sense or righteousness.

I would agree that the idea of saving someone, being the hero, is quite prevelent....

I would also say that idea that "I am going to heaven and you aren't" also produces a sense of person value superiority. "If Im in and you aren't" gives people the feeling or right of being better than others. It's quite prevelant in the idea that unbelievers are bad...but once thay are saved than they are good too.

I agree with this Dallas.  I've heard the statement before from sooooo many non-believers that Christians think that they are better than everyone else, be it because they are going to heaven and other people aren't (inclusion and exclusion) or because the Christian was 'chosen by God' as if though divine intervention of sorts happened in their life, but the non-Christian didn't have or wasn't worthy that intervention (once again, exclusion) as if they aren't good enough for God's love.

I also believe that some Christians NEED to believe in an eternal hell so that their belief will have a purpose.  I mean, most people don't want to believe in something that doesn't fulfill a purpose in their life.  I've heard people in the church that I grew up in say things along the lines of "Better to follow God and be right than NOT follow Him and be wrong".  I've also heard some rediculous things come out of those same people like "Try Him for 30 days, if you don't like the difference go back to your old ways" as if he's something you can purchase on tv and then send back minus shipping and handling and recieve your full purchase price refund.

It all comes back to what Dallas said, they need to feel that they're right and good and have more value than other people just because they believe in God and other people don't, but when the Christian shows someone the love of God and that person starts to believe in God then the Christian feels better about themselves because they 'brought someone to Christ' and then they can boast on how good of a Christian they are... that they have more value than George Q. Christian because they 'brought more people to God' than he did, as if it means that their 'mansion in the sky' is going to be bigger and better than the others.

:2c:

[eaglesway]

I can only say.....May the Lord have mercy on anyone who finds the idea of others in endless torment appealing :dontknow:. My psyche always recoiled from the whole concept, even when I thought there was a possibility it was true. The revelation of the reconciliation of all has been one of the great joys of my entire life.

[jabcat]

My son just came home a bit earlier from the Baptist Church of which I withdrew my membership a couple years ago.  He plays bass there, and said he regretted staying for the sermon.

His summary of the sermon;  Calvinists are going to hell, and they should say "it's by fate we are saved".  Also that Jehovah's Witnesses are going to hell.    My son said he was uncomfortable, and that the preacher during his sermon was "so bold".

One of my thoughts;  even if you don't agree with strict Calvinists (or anyone else) why does that mean they're going to "hell" - even if they've trusted Jesus as their Savior?!   :mshock:

There's just a way of thinking - I had someone recently tell me that since I believed in UR (and they believed in ET) that when they flew away in the "rapture", they'd wave to me.   :sigh:

[WhiteWings]

I can only say.....May the Lord have mercy on anyone who finds the idea of others in endless torment appealing :dontknow:.

Teachings of men? Or directly from the pen of Mr. S. himself?
Debating futilities while the personality of the "The Light" has been twisted into "The Utter Darkness"

[WhiteWings]

His summary of the sermon;  Calvinists are going to hell, and they should say "it's by fate we are saved".  Also that Jehovah's Witnesses are going to hell.    My son said he was uncomfortable, and that the preacher

Sam Raimi is his preacher I guess.

during his sermon was "so bold".

No disrespect for the Bible but it usually people with such logic wear clothes with very long sleeves  :laughing7:

One of my thoughts;  even if you don't agree with strict Calvinists (or anyone else) why does that mean they're going to "hell" - even if they've trusted Jesus as their Savior?!   :mshock:

Yeah God picked His elected but didn't add a condition that one should listen to a preacher with a white suite... :mshock:

There's just a way of thinking - I had someone recently tell me that since I believed in UR (and they believed in ET) that when they flew away in the "rapture", they'd wave to me.   :sigh:

Next time just answer: I think you are right. Your rapure is explained in Exodus 15:12
Just a thought...

[CHB]

My son just came home a bit earlier from the Baptist Church of which I withdrew my membership a couple years ago.  He plays bass there, and said he regretted staying for the sermon.

His summary of the sermon;  Calvinists are going to hell, and they should say "it's by fate we are saved".  Also that Jehovah's Witnesses are going to hell.    My son said he was uncomfortable, and that the preacher during his sermon was "so bold".

One of my thoughts;  even if you don't agree with strict Calvinists (or anyone else) why does that mean they're going to "hell" - even if they've trusted Jesus as their Savior?!   :mshock:

There's just a way of thinking - I had someone recently tell me that since I believed in UR (and they believed in ET) that when they flew away in the "rapture", they'd wave to me.   :sigh:

I had a Baptist preacher tell me that if I couldn't remember when I was saved, place/date/hour, that more than likely I wasn't saved. If my salvation depends upon my memory of a time and day then I am doomed for sure!!! :sigh:

CHB

[WhiteWings]

CHB,
Next time just answer you can't remember events that happend before your birth....

^KJVRev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

[eaglesway]

Well, if there is a rapture, and I get left out of it, I will just wave back. Then I will get to work proclaiming the good news that Jesus has reconciled all things back to the Father by the blood of His cross.

[CrossoverManiac]

I have had similar thoughts but from a different prespective, which was 'what is the point'?  I don't mean doing the right thing but why did God bother putting us here if nothing we do even matter in the long run of our existence.  It's been a bit of thorn in my side.  I've been growing more sympathetic to the view of universalism but it's questions like these that plants some doubt in my mind about it.