End Times

[Dallas]

It's by grace we're saved, through faith, and that not of ourselves...so I understand it as, God gives each the faith to believe as He chooses and as suits His purposes and timing - each in His own order (I Cor. 15:23)

This seems to be the crux of the issue, if I'm reading you right, you believe that our personal faith determins our right standing?

What I'm saying is that my faith means nothing, and who I am hinges on Jesus faith, not my own, but His.

I am saved through faith, but not faith of my own otherwise I could boast, but instead I am saved through faith, the faith of Jesus. Just like you, you aren't saved through your faith but through Jesus' faith, that's why it never waivers, or becomes corrupted, that's why you are secured for ever, it's not based on you, but based on Jesus, and not just you, but all people are based on what Jesus did, thier faith is not there own for in Him faith was perfected and I was perfected in that faith.

[jabcat]

Thanks for the answers.  So for the first couple verses I referenced, you're seeing those as having to do with the Jews only at that point?  

Then for the last point about faith...I agree the faith is not ours, it's given by God.  I tried to make that distinction, it's not our efforts, but His - I just believe it's HIS IN us - given as the new spiritual birth.  I understand that you're saying it even a little different than that - that it's totally Jesus' faith - if so, I probably wouldn't totally quibble with that point, I just believe part of our conversion is being given the ability to trust in that and believe ON/IN Him.

I think although we're s/w apart on the POV still, we both still probably have a pretty different understanding than a lot of mainstreams' ideas on it - and it seems we both believe totally in His grace and mercy - but a different process of its coming to fruition.  I just believe the Hindu, Muslim, or "Christian", etc. who has never yet been given the faith to believe, still needs to be called out of their unbelief and given the experience of the new birth.  Still not our effort or goodness, but His.   :thumbsup:

Thanks again for the good discussion on it.  

[Molly]

Saved means to be taken from a place of danger and put into a place of saftey.

The Hebrew word says it all I think--

H3467
ישׁע
yâsha‛
yaw-shah'
A primitive root; properly to be open, wide or free, that is, (by implication) to be safe; causatively to free or succor: -  X at all, avenging, defend, deliver (-er), help, preserve, rescue, be safe, bring (having) salvation, save (-iour), get victory.





18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

--Luke 4

[Paul Hazelwood]

I see your point Dallas,  perhaps you should build on the non negotiable truth that Jesus is the Saviour of all mankind.

The problem is, people who typically think they belive in universal salvation actually don't. People still want to exclude people from the work of the cross until...; they make a choice, say a prayer, believe a certain doctrine, do a certain thing, reflect a certain idea..etc

To understand biblical universalism we must acknowledge the unbiased impartial "because of what Jesus did all people are included already." No one is on the outside looking in, the very foundation of the cross tells us sin has been taken care of, the thing that seperated man from God.

God wasn't ever going to deal with man on a one-on-one basis, who would have wanted to be in that waiting room, God was always dealing with man as a whole when it came to sin. God was interested in one thing, reconstructing the relationship with His children that was lost. He was never going to exclude anyone of them, and when Jesus came and dealt with sin, we all became close....does that mean that everyone has engaged with Him absolutley not, but as righteousness spreads so will the relationship. People, because of their ideas with hold themselves from God and don't experience Him, God isn't holding Himself back.

I think I am understanding what your saying and probably agree. I have written in other threads my view of the truth of atheism.

The atheist is not cut off from Gods work and blessing just because in the perspective we know they will claim that label.

I am not sure if we think along the same lines, but as far as the thread and my initial comments nothing has changed just because I do not write an essay when I make a post thatg spells out every concievable thing that might be in scripture on the matter.  It is about glorifying the author of my faith.

Whether or not I have line itemed everything,  as far as mankind goes we are all saved,  saved from what?   Perhaps everything.  Perhaps we are saved from people who think they know how to study the bible proper and show no joy in the journey of their faith.

I have bad teeth,  am I saved from bad teeth?  You bet ya!   I know that I will not have bad teeth forever so I can find a comfort in that.  So a lot of it is how we percieve things.

What I do know is that religious persuasions and falsehoods come in all forms.  Perhaps you do not like my simple outlook on things, but what I do know is that I am free from people who would steal the joy of my salvation by asserting that somehow I am wrong because I do not read and study the bible like they think I should.  That there is a problem because I do not adhere to some set of standards that they themselves cannot even prove is proper.

Jesus is my saviour, he is your saviour and he is everyones saviour, but what I do know, is that he will meet you differently than he met me and the same goes for anyone who learns to be spiritually open.  and everyone will learn.

[noname]

guys, I have a slightly different view...

its got less to do with being saved, but more to do with the promise of eternal life...for me anyway

Matthew 19:16-26 (New International Version)

The Rich Young Man
16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

18"Which ones?" the man inquired.

  Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'[a] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"

20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"

21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."


from Jesus' answers it is clear that strong emphasis to obtain eternal life is not just placed on being obedient to God's law, but also on charity (ie sell your stuff and give to poor)
Charity is the embodyment of God's love because we share with mankind as He shares with us, without conditions

[WhiteWings]

from Jesus' answers it is clear that strong emphasis to obtain eternal life is not just placed on being obedient to God's law, but also on charity (ie sell your stuff and give to poor)
Charity is the embodyment of God's love because we share with mankind as He shares with us, without conditions

I would say charity is a integral part of love your neighbor...
That's why for me it's certain both faith and works are needed. To stick to your example; what good would it do when I look out of my window and feel sorry for the homeless man that I see dying from hunger and cold outside in the snow and I don't go outside and give hime a blanket and food (=works)

[noname]

I would say charity is a integral part of love your neighbor...
That's why for me it's certain both faith and works are needed. To stick to your example; what good would it do when I look out of my window and feel sorry for the homeless man that I see dying from hunger and cold outside in the snow and I don't go outside and give hime a blanket and food (=works)

Amen WW :thumbsup:

The principle of faith and works is also explained beautifully in the book of James as he echoes Jesus teachings - "faith without works is dead"

[Molly]

I would say charity is a integral part of love your neighbor...

I think charity is a state of mind, a state of heart.  Some of the most evil men in history have been some of the world's greatest benefactors.  Does one balance the other?  They think so.

Did Jesus mean to say the young man had to give away all his wealth?  Or was he talking about a state of mind?  Can we follow the Christ when we have so many other attachments?


Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.



What a statement!


"hate"
G3404
μισέω
miseō
mis-eh'-o
From a primary word μῖσος misos (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).

[WhiteWings]

I would say charity is a integral part of love your neighbor...

I think charity is a state of mind, a state of heart.  Some of the most evil men in history have been some of the world's greatest benefactors.  Does one balance the other?  They think so.

Molly you change the order of what I said. I said charity is a integral part of love your neighbor. I didn't say love your neighbor is an integral part of charity...

[rosered]

I would say charity is a integral part of love your neighbor...

I think charity is a state of mind, a state of heart.  Some of the most evil men in history have been some of the world's greatest benefactors.  Does one balance the other?  They think so.

Did Jesus mean to say the young man had to give away all his wealth?  Or was he talking about a state of mind?  Can we follow the Christ when we have so many other attachments?


Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.



What a statement!


"hate"
G3404
μισέω
miseō
mis-eh'-o
From a primary word μῖσος misos (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).

this is good Molly  
because both cain and abel  gave'' gifts '' to God
 abels was rightous the other offering of cains  was not righteous  not mixed with faith , dead works  

 and hate / covetouness from the heart  come out of  cain against his brother ..

[rosered]

I would say charity is a integral part of love your neighbor...

I think charity is a state of mind, a state of heart.  Some of the most evil men in history have been some of the world's greatest benefactors.  Does one balance the other?  They think so.

Molly you change the order of what I said. I said charity is a integral part of love your neighbor. I didn't say love your neighbor is an integral part of charity...

its the same princilpe Bro T   what comes out of the heart / intent defiles  or  clears us before the Lord

faith without works is dead
    was Cains works dead? they were not of faith 
like abels was  , love your brother as yourself
   he is also your neighbour  too lol .    real close even  :thumbsup:
  and still need to answer  your e mail to me 
been thinking on it alot ..  :Sparkletooth:

[Molly]

I would say charity is a integral part of love your neighbor...

I think charity is a state of mind, a state of heart.  Some of the most evil men in history have been some of the world's greatest benefactors.  Does one balance the other?  They think so.

Molly you change the order of what I said. I said charity is a integral part of love your neighbor. I didn't say love your neighbor is an integral part of charity...

Yes, good point.  That's why he says...


Matthew 6:2
Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

[rosered]

I would say charity is a integral part of love your neighbor...

I think charity is a state of mind, a state of heart.  Some of the most evil men in history have been some of the world's greatest benefactors.  Does one balance the other?  They think so.

Molly you change the order of what I said. I said charity is a integral part of love your neighbor. I didn't say love your neighbor is an integral part of charity...

Yes, good point.  That's why he says...


Matthew 6:2
Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

  same reward as Cain it seems

Jud 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

Korah = "baldness"

1) a man who, with others, rebelled against Moses

Jhn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

  faith comes by hearing what the Spirit is saying

[noname]

faith comes by hearing what the Spirit is saying

and doing it :bigGrin:

[rosered]

faith comes by hearing what the Spirit is saying

and doing it :bigGrin:

yes amen !!!doing it in FAITH IN GOD to God / Jesus / HOLY SPIRIT  :thumbsup:beliving
  faith  believing is  living works  He does in and though you  :HeartThrob:
to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in

to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity!!

Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

  the present tense of  GOD IS NOW  WOW! :HeartThrob:

[Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7]

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