Where Have All The Christians Gone?

[jabcat]

What do you make of this article from a journalist, Bruce Feller?  It talks about people losing interest in organized religion yet still believing in God - on the other hand, it states we "risk becoming Europe, where religion is fast becoming an afterthought."

Some would say it's a sign of the times of "a great falling away before either the 'rapture' or Jesus' 'second coming', tribulation, anti-Christ, millineum, etc."  Others would say "people still believe, they're just leaving organized religion and there's a great harvest of souls about to occur - God is readying things for the reign of His kingdom, the restoration, the ULTIMATE RECONCILIATION of all things".

I'm sure there are other possible interpretations.  IMO, whichever side you come down on, I think the writer is confusing "organized religion" and belief/faith in God - mixing the 2, when as you know, they can be very different things. 

What do you think are some of the possible implications of this article and its findings?


Where Have All the Christians Gone?, by Bruce Feller

The number of people who claim no religious affiliation has doubled since 1990 to fifteen percent, its highest point in history.

Christianity is plummeting in America, while the number of non-believers is skyrocketing.

A shocking new study of Americans' religious beliefs shows the beginnings of a major realignment in Americans' relationship with God. The American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) reveals that Protestants now represent half of all Americans, down almost 20 percent in the last twenty years. In the coming months, America will become a minority Protestant nation for the first time since the pilgrims.

The number of people who claim no religious affiliation, meanwhile, has doubled since 1990 to fifteen percent, its highest point in history. Non-believers now represent the third-highest group of Americans, after Catholics and Baptists.

But these non-believers are not particularly atheist. That number hasn't budged and stands at less than 1 percent. (Agnostics are similarly less than 1 percent.) Instead, these individuals have a belief in God but no interest in organized religion, or they believe in a personal God but not in a formal faith tradition. [EMPHASIS MINE]

The implications for American society are profound. Americans' relationship with God, which drove many of the country's great transformations from the pilgrims to the founding fathers, the Civil War to the civil rights movement, is still intact. Eighty-two percent of Americans believe in God or a higher power.

Americans are interested in God, but they don't think existing institutions are helping them draw closer to God.

Today, the rise of disaffection is so powerful that different denominations needs to band together to find a shared language of God that can move beyond the fading divisions of the past and begin moving toward a partnership of different-but-equal traditions.

Or risk becoming Europe, where religion is fast becoming an afterthought. - end article

James.

[WhiteWings]

One thing I know for shure "church" overhere would be pleased with such great numbers.
Here Christianity is dropping even faster as the muslim infestation is able to grow.

Sure; there are believers outside of church but I can assure you many outside-of-church Christians here will have great trouble in remembering the Our Father.
Surely we can't all be scholars but there is a limit. And taking that limit into account the numbers are even lower.

And I blame church most for that fact because of abuse of power.

[jabcat]

WW, are most people there agnostic, atheist, indifferent, or are many actually believers but just not affiliated with organized religion?

Part of what I'm personally interested in is "what's the trend - a falling away that only Jesus' personal return will fix, or conditions being set up for a great revival or harvest?  Or some mix of both?

Again, I know there are varying opinions on this, and this article caught my attention in that regards - and how do these figures/trends either support or go against folks' personal beliefs/expectations.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Personally, I think He's breaking the chains that bind them in preparation for the harvest that's coming. Blessings....

[jabcat]

I can see that perspective.  Card, do you believe Jesus will be literally, physically present for that? 

[WhiteWings]

WW, are most people there agnostic, atheist, indifferent,

Atheist or indifferent at best.

or are many actually believers but just not affiliated with organized religion?

I think organized religion is a strong indicator of religion in general. Unorganized believers are hard to find because they are unorganised. But I would say there are very few.

Part of what I'm personally interested in is "what's the trend - a falling away that only Jesus' personal return will fix, or conditions being set up for a great revival or harvest?  Or some mix of both?

The very clear trend is that at this rate Christianity will be (almost) wiped out in the next generation.
The other very clear trend is that islam will be the largest 'religion'
A less clear trend is that Christians/atheists convert to islam. But I'm not sure that's true religion or just extreme lefties that want to show they like immigrants.

[WhiteWings]

Religion
Main article: Religion in the Netherlands

The Netherlands is one of the more secular countries in the Western Europe, with only 39% being religiously affiliated (31% for those aged under 35). Fewer than 20% visit church regularly.[50]

Currently Roman Catholicism is the single largest religion of the Netherlands, forming the religious home of some 26.3 % of the Dutch people, down from 40 percent in the 1970s. The Protestant Church of the Netherlands is followed by 11.4% of the population. It was formed in 2004 as a merger of the two major strands of Calvinism: the Dutch Reformed Church (which represented roughly 8.5% of the population) and the Reformed Churches in the Netherlands (3.7% of the population) and a smaller Lutheran Church. Other Protestant churches, mostly orthodox Calvinist splits, represent 6% of the population. The Netherlands now has an estimated 250,000 Buddhists or people who feel strongly attracted by this religion, largely white Dutch. In 1998, there were only 16,000 including just 4,000 Dutch natives and 12,000 Buddhist immigrants from Asia. There are approximately 95,000 Hindus, of whom 85% originally came from Suriname. In 2006 there were 850,000 Muslims, 5% of the total Dutch population.[51]

Although the Holocaust deeply affected the Jewish community, killing some 75% of the some 140,000 Jews at the time present in Netherlands, since then the community has managed to rebuild a vibrant and living Jewish life for its approximately 45,000 present members. Before World War II, 10% of the Amsterdam population was Jewish.[52]

According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll 2005,[53] 34% of Dutch citizens responded that "they believe there is a god", whereas 37% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" and 27% that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force".

In 1950, before the secularisation of Europe, and the large settlement of non-Europeans in the Netherlands, most Dutch citizens identified themselves as Christians. In 1950, out of a total population of almost 13 million, a total of 7,261,000 belonged to Protestant denominations, 3,703,000 belonged to the Roman Catholic Church, and 1,641,000 had no acknowledged religion.

However, Christian schools are still funded by the government, but the same applies for schools founded on other religions, Islam in particular. While all schools must meet strict quality criteria, from 1917 the freedom of schools is a basic principle in the Netherlands.

Three political parties in the Dutch parliament (CDA, ChristianUnion and SGP) base their policy on the Christian belief system. Although The Netherlands is a secular state, in some municipalities where the Christian parties have the majority the council practices religion by praying before a meeting. Also in a few remaining (rural) spots, roads are closed for car traffic on Sundays and religious holidays. Municipalities in general also give civil servants a day off on Christian religious holidays, such as Easter and the Ascension of Jesus [54]. On September 4 2008, a discussion was started by Tineke Huizinga whether Islam should receive a holiday, like Christianity. In 2005, 20% of the Dutch thought it should be a national holiday (which means the entire country receives a day off work or school) and 45% thought that Eid ul-Fitr should at least be recognized as a holiday.[55]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands
I have to say some of the info on that page is very outdated. So perhaps also the religion stats...?

[Gab]

Snarky response: given how well Europe seems to be doing on the whole, it seems to me that risking becoming Europe is a pretty darn hedged bet. :Sparkletooth:

But seriously, according to a 2005 Eurobarometer poll, belief in God was registered as low as 23% in Sweden (two other countries were lower, but they were part of the Soviet Union), yet it seems to be doing all right.  It's consistently either #1 or #2 in the world in terms of quality of life (jockeying for that position with Norway, itself at only 32% believing in God).  Its crime rates per capita are way lower than the United States'.  For all the hellfire and brimstone that some people say will come to the US if it "turns from God" (i.e., "does not swallow my interpretation of the Bible whole hog"), God seems awfully complacent with the state of Europe.

Of note in that poll is that, as in the article in this thread, that does not mean that 77% of Swedes are atheist.  53% registered a belief in some sort of supernatural spirit or life force; only 23% registered a belief in neither.  Personally, I think that what we're seeing is not so much a collapse of Christianity, but rather a collapse of what some here call "churchianity" - organized religion that tries to turn malleable souls into modern-day Pharisees, encumbered so much by fear and law that they never have time for God.  If I associated "belief in God" with those preachers of eternal torment I see all the time, I'd probably tell people I didn't believe in God too.

I might be extrapolating too much from my own experience, but I think there are largely three levels of spirituality a given human can pass through.  The first level is where a human needs God, because he or she is afraid.  The second is where a human does not need God, because he or she is not afraid.  The third is where a human wants God, because that lack of fear has allowed him or her to recognize the ultimate beauty of love.  I know that I certainly went through these stages, and my anecdotal evidence tells me that others have as well.

Looking at the stats in this perspective, I find nothing to be afraid of at all - rather, I think that the US is still largely stuck at the first level, whereas Europe may well be on to the second level.  And God is waiting for us all in the third.

[Cardinal]

I can see that perspective.  Card, do you believe Jesus will be literally, physically present for that? 

:cloud9: Hi Jab........no, I don't. I believe He is now in a many-membered body of which He is the Head. He said if He didn't go away the Comforter would not come. I believe the reason for that is, so that He might fill all things (both heaven AND earth) with Himself, ie. the RISEN Christ. My  :2c: Blessings....

[jesushandsarekindhands]

I believe in God without religion too.

[WhiteWings]

I believe in God without religion too.

I wonder if that's possible....

[jabcat]

Thanks for the replies.  So far it seems there are indications of both a "great falling away" (WW said in Netherlands the clear trend is almost no Christianity in the next generation), while others seem to see the great harvest coming.  And I wonder if it's both somehow, because I believe any great harvest will be truly divinely miraculous in nature, not simply mortal men "winning the lost for the Lord" [I don't think anyone here is saying that necessarily].  Many do say the miraculous event that changes things is Jesus physically returning - but then most of them believe most will be lost and cast into eternal hell after He returns  :sigh:.

Just read this morning in I Cor. the passage "will the Son of Man find the faith on the earth when He returns".  Wonder how that fits in here?

NOTE FOR CARD - when do you believe we will be in Jesus' direct, physical presence?

God's blessing, James.

[WhiteWings]

Thanks for the replies.  So far it seems there are indications of both a "great falling away" (WW said in Netherlands the clear trend is almost no Christianity in the next generation), while others seem to see the great harvest coming.  And I wonder if it's both somehow

I would say it must be both. The two views are very compatible imo.
Second to none religion is almost the purest form of falling away you can get.
But think the numbers in countries like Italy and Spain are much different.

[Raggedy Anne]

I know more atheists now than at any previous time in my life.  They are on the march.   I encounter an air of Atheist Pride quite often in certain circles of people.   I have come across a number of them in poetry circles who seem to despise my very presence.    On the other side of the coin, I know a lot of believers in God who think I'm a heretic because I reject the doctrine of eternal torment.    As was mentioned in another thread -- we are a bunch of dots networked across the planet. And that's the way it is, Sunday, October 4th, 2009.

[Universalist Catholic]

I think people have had it with all the hypocricy and confusion major world religions have lead people into.  In my opinion, I believe Europe took the teachings and works of Jesus and turned them into a religion.  As we can tell from history, the organized Church has done some pretty crooked things.  In the past, we saw the crusades for the purpose of slaughtering anyone who did not believe as the Catholic Church did, for fear of mixing non catholic ideals leading to heresies.  And dont forget about the stuff the Protestants did too.  But during that time, people did not understand science very well, so they had assumed that this was something the Church would explain, such as Demons, punishment, Gods Will.  In todays world, we are much more global than a long time ago.  Back then, one would only know of their taught customs.  Catholics praying rosaries, Hindus praying yogas, African, Native American, Pacific and Asian tribes performing rites with the resources they have.  They did not know any better of other things.  Once we became more global, people learned more, and it became too late to close ones mind off from foreign customs and claim that their rites were the only rites.  For example, it would not make sense for a pentecostal to claim that Native Americans having experiences with the Spirits is simply from being drugged up, but believe that anyone who starts rolling all over the floor and speaking jibberish has recieved the gifts of the Holy Spirit.  Its all just hypocracy.  As we see many people who claim to be righteous on the narrow path are some of the most loveless people, and that makes others think that God is just some psychotic figure who is going to tell you to not harm others for a small moment in time, or he will burn you forever in torturous flames.  Talk about major relativism.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I have a perspective that may not be the "whole" answer to anything, but it is on my mind as I read this.

Growing up I was very isolated religiously, even though the small community I was in was not all religious it was very easy for the line to be drawn between good and evil people.  Good people went to church, bad people didn't.   I grew up basically hearing that the pastor had the authority to speak the word of God. 

As I got older I seen something that didn't ring quite true, if the congregation didn't like what the pastor taught, out he went.  So confusion started.

Also there was a certain religious point of view that also created a confusion and that was the prosperity issue of being a believer.   While I did not grow up poor when it came to my basic needs I always had plenty to eat and a place to sleep, but material possessions was another thing.   One confusing thing was that I knew there was people in church that had more money than we did and on one hand my parents always had the perspective of being able to critisize someone else and talk about belief and such so I did not quite understand, nor was I properly taught concerning why my mom and dads supposed faithful devotion of years kept us pretty much materially poor while others in church seems to prosper so much more.

As I talk to more and more people there is another aspect that I have come to wonder about in the last year or so.  My parents have went to the same church for at least 50 years if not longer, in the religious world that is a faithfulness beyond reproach almost.
Yet, all those years of faithful religious posturing and when my Dad fell ill my mother pretty much had a nervous breakdown.

Now as I have struggled emotionally over "religion" most of my life, this simply adds another nail in the coffin and this isn;t just about my parents, but it is religious people in general, including UR, and even a muslim person I worked with.  People will spend years and years and years in "religion" and it does them practically no good at all when it comes to what we are all told what it should do.


From my perspective, that is what people are seeing, they are seeing the years and years of claims, assertions, testamonies, teachings, do practically no good at all when it comes to the world that religion paints that it is supposed to affect so greatly.


But what people are beginning to see, is that they see the contradiction.   A faithful religious couple has a gay daughter, oh my how devastating, those who hang on to relgious belief will still maintain that the bad evil homosexual is sinning against God.

Of course that is until they see that homosexuals life take on a righteousness of heart that cannot be disputed while the so called religious pastors are sleeping around, fondling children,  embezzling money and, the congregation looks no different than the world it says they are supposed to not be a part of. And in the face of all of that all you get is excuses.

Oh "no one is perfect" "not all pastors are like that" "not all christians are like that"  "I" know all of that is true, but religious is full of hollywood actors that play the part that they are righteous above others and their facade is crumbling.


Now, perhaps that will not happen here, but in other venues where I bring this up what I see myself is a righteousness that is growing that religious people either can't see or refuse to see.  But it is a godliness that is more spiritual and more real.  People are realizing that emotional responces are not causing spiritual growth, they are taking steps of faith and venturing out into the unknown, away from the rules and stipulations of men that flat are not working.

I still get argued with from believers when I say a friend of mine who calls himself an atheist is actually a believer because they refuse to look past labels and the affiliations of terms and words.   He is a believer because he knows without being able to explain it that doing right is the right thing to do, it is written on his heart.  It is actually religion that has prevented my friend from being able to put that thought from his heart to a term because to do so then aligns himself with a basic sect of society that is corrupt.


But people are waking up because spiritual seeds are being planted day after day, sometimes things just don't grow as fat as we'd like.

[rosered]

 

wow read this and thought of .. till the time of the gentiles comes in

  the  error  of Israel is idolatry 
and the error of the gentiles IS  Blasphemy ..
this reminds me of   as long as the Shepherd is stuck the sheep will be scattered ...  stuck with blasphemy ?
  I also love the fact you brought up  will the Lord find ''faith in the earth'' when He returns    and Paul put the seeds of faith are being  planted 

  and  someone on the forum made the great point of  [and it stuck with me ]  as the  gold is being refined   the dross is also being burned off  and consumed 

our  faith being more precious than gold is comparable to   being refined by firey trials   that  we are consumed with 
so much suffering  right now 
it seems you become stronger in  your faith as God will fix this or you become angry  and the wrath of man cannot  work the righteousness of God
  so there you have it   seems  both are a  ''force '' to be reckoned with  :mshock:
  one in the trust in the Power of God and the ''patience of the saints ''
  and the other in trusting in man/ his strength  and what can man do to me ?
  :dontknow:

[sheila]

 Daniel prophesied about 'the saints were overcome'

  we have all been overcome with the deception to some degree.

   why would God allow the saints to be overcome?

   so that NO FLESH CAN BOAST!!!!!

   the people sitting in the pew at church..condemning the man

on the barstool in the tavern..will NOT BE ABLE TO BOAST

BEFORE GOD and say...I did thus and thus..that sinner over

there deserves etrnal hell...while I deserve eternal life.


  It's a free gift...many who think otherwise,will find out

differently when they rise.


   THIS IS WHAT WE NEED TO BOAST ABOUT.....THE AWESOME

GLORY AND MAJESTY OF OUR FATHER

  WHO CAN DO THINGS IMPOSSIBLE FOR MAN


   He alone decides the old man/Adam's last day...and the

  BORN AGAIN FROM ABOVE/NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST Birth

[CHB]

Paul and UC pretty much said what I was thinking and done it much better than I could.

About the falling away:  How can there be a falling away when there has been no truth since the apostles day to fall away from? Well, except for a little here and there. I believe the falling away happened in 70AD after all of the the apostles died. Remember Paul saying, that everyone had left him?

CHB

[sheila]

 Hey,Chb

  I think the falling away has been going on since Adam and Eve..when they listened to the serpents lie..instead of clinging to the Word Of God.

  I think the Jewish religious system was falling away when Christ came to speak to them,and the Pharisee's and sadducee's couldn't bear to hear him.

All the disciples fell away the night Jesus was taken into
custody Mt 26;31  This very night you will all fall away on account of me,for it is written,'I will strike the shepherd,and the sheep od the flock will be scattered. Look at all the scattering of faith in Christ into all the different denominations.

  We know a house divided against itself can not stand. So,we see,Christ is not divided against Christ...but it is the man of sin,the adversary that has divided the House of Faith...those that cause divisions. Roman 16;17...watch out for those who cause divisions. 1 Cor 1;10

[Beloved Servant]

Daniel prophesied about 'the saints were overcome'

  we have all been overcome with the deception to some degree.

   why would God allow the saints to be overcome?

   so that NO FLESH CAN BOAST!!!!!

   the people sitting in the pew at church..condemning the man

on the barstool in the tavern..will NOT BE ABLE TO BOAST

BEFORE GOD and say...I did thus and thus..that sinner over

there deserves etrnal hell...while I deserve eternal life.


  It's a free gift...many who think otherwise,will find out

differently when they rise.


   THIS IS WHAT WE NEED TO BOAST ABOUT.....THE AWESOME

GLORY AND MAJESTY OF OUR FATHER

  WHO CAN DO THINGS IMPOSSIBLE FOR MAN


   He alone decides the old man/Adam's last day...and the

  BORN AGAIN FROM ABOVE/NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST Birth

Thanks Sheila,
The Lord was ministering to me just this morning about walking in his strength and not my own.