End Times

[Paul Hazelwood]

If we are in it,  rejoice,  if not rejoice,  if our beliefs are actually good news then anything concerning the appearance of the Lord is good news.


Christianity fears it because they equate the end times with eternal damnation,  is this preaching the good message?  Nope.   

When someone asks what the gospel of Jesus Christ is  it is simple,  people seem to really not actually know.   They over complicate it, write long stories trying to define what it is.   

The word gospel is a translation from

G2098  euaggelion  yoo-ang-ghel'-ee-on

from the same as G2097;

a good message, i.e. the gospel:--gospel.

Mk 1:1 The beginning of the Gospel (Good Message)   of Jesus Christ, Son of God,

The gospel of Jesus Christ is simply   The good message of Jesus Christ.    What is that message?   He is the Saviour of ALL mankind.   Simple.   That really is it.


I speak in general terms here, I am not going to debate the ideas that Jesus has already returned, or anything like that.   What I am only doing is placing the idea of the appearance or the return of Jesus into perspective.

It is a good message to deliver for both believers and unbelievers.  If it contains bad news for anyone, then it is a contradiction to scripture.

[rosered]

 :thumbsup:    Jesus is good news alright !! :icon_flower:

  peace Paul !  well said bro .................

[Dallas]

Hey Paul;

If the goodnews is simply Jesus is the savior of all mankind and thats all we need to know, let me ask you.

What are we saved from?

[Molly]

From ourselves.



23 "Then if anyone tells you, 'Look, here is the Messiah,' or 'There he is,' don't believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God's chosen ones. 25 See, I have warned you about this ahead of time.

26 "So if someone tells you, 'Look, the Messiah is out in the desert,' don't bother to go and look. Or, 'Look, he is hiding here,' don't believe it! 27 For as the lightning flashes in the east and shines to the west, so it will be when the Son of Man comes.

--Mat 24



Isaiah 40:5
And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hey Paul;

If the goodnews is simply Jesus is the savior of all mankind and thats all we need to know, let me ask you.

What are we saved from?

I'm not exacly sure Dallas,  it could be a lot of things or a few things,  what I know is that my life has taken a better direction since I have been fortunate enough to see things in that simple light.  What about you?

[Paul Hazelwood]

From ourselves.



23 "Then if anyone tells you, 'Look, here is the Messiah,' or 'There he is,' don't believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God's chosen ones. 25 See, I have warned you about this ahead of time.

26 "So if someone tells you, 'Look, the Messiah is out in the desert,' don't bother to go and look. Or, 'Look, he is hiding here,' don't believe it! 27 For as the lightning flashes in the east and shines to the west, so it will be when the Son of Man comes.

--Mat 24



Isaiah 40:5
And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Yep, for sure, it is why I have never truly in my heart believed someone that would tell me I need to go to a certain place to  "Find God" or  "meet Jesus" or something along those lines.


God and Jesus is found wherever all men can be.... and that is right where they stand.


 

[peacemaker]

If the goodnews is simply Jesus is the savior of all mankind and that's all we need to know, let me ask you.

What are we saved from?

Death, the end of life. Or is it the beginning?

"We are saved from beginning to end."

[Dallas]

I'm not exacly sure Dallas,  it could be a lot of things or a few things,  what I know is that my life has taken a better direction since I have been fortunate enough to see things in that simple light.

From ourselves.

Then how is it simply we have been saved? People who believe in Budah claim to have come into a more enlightening and fullfilling life when living by those teachings.

The same is for most religions...

From my perspective there has to be a biblical definition of sorts beyond blamket statements like, saved from death... for that is open to interpretation about what death is and what life is etc.  There must be a biblical construct that is non-negotiable. As it is fact 2 +2 is 4, that the Hebrews were freed from Egypt that Jesus was foretold there must likewise be a definate understanding about what it is meant when we use the word, Salvation and saved.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Well Dallas if you need something more specific,  then we are saved from remaining dead.   

But I also know that in my own life, the door has been opened far beyond that one piece of knowledge for me, if that bothers you, oh well.

As for a buddist, as soon as believers realize that spirituality goes beyond the letter of the law,  they will see Christ in things far beyond this leveraging that religious belief has in limiting us to biblical text.    Considering the forum rules, this is not a statement that the bible is not important, it is to say to believers that if you only look for Christ in places that are familiar (based on religious familiarity) then you are not as spiritual as you might believe you are.

[peacemaker]

From my perspective there has to be a biblical definition of sorts beyond blanket statements like, saved from death...There must be a biblical construct that is non-negotiable.

To reclaim me from this course of life (liberating us from the captivity or consequences of sin and death) was the sole purpose of his journey, least you be consigned to a state of wretchedness from which no human effort will deliver.

Exuberant Health (salvation) is to be fruitful, overcoming the other; a wretched life.

[Dallas]

we are saved from remaining dead.

But we don't remain dead, apart from Jesus. Both Moses and Elijah and even Samuel were seen in a physical forrm long after there deaths and Jesus had yet died.

As for a buddist, as soon as believers realize that spirituality goes beyond the letter of the law,  they will see Christ in things far beyond this leveraging that religious belief has in limiting us to biblical text.    Considering the forum rules, this is not a statement that the bible is not important, it is to say to believers that if you only look for Christ in places that are familiar (based on religious familiarity) then you are not as spiritual as you might believe you are.
quote]

Like I said earlier, these dogmatic statements are as real as they are to each individual and not single sourced, You claim it to be Jesus, another Budah another Muhadmad and even some through the teaching of Joseph Smith. And as much as you say you have a unique experience they same, as you say you have a clarity or an understanding they also say the same, or a revelation etc.

My point is, without a biblical concept, an ideology derived from the bible in which to test such claims, also to claim such things of what the gospel is there has to be a systematic biblical concept.

[Dallas]

To reclaim me from this course of life (liberating us from the captivity or consequences of sin and death) was the sole purpose of his journey, least you be consigned to a state of wretchedness from which no human effort will deliver.

Exuberant Health (salvation) is to be fruitful, overcoming the other; a wretched life.

Saved means to be taken from a place of danger and put into a place of saftey.

Salvation; to greek words, So and Zo... when combined as SoZo, (excuse the english spelling) is a combintation of two ideas, 1. the things of and 2. the life of.  Therefore the context of the word implies the meaning and depth of it.

Example, The salvation of Peter would to be included into what Peter was doing and experience it with him gaining the benifits of those things and relationship of Peter. The salvation of God is being included into the things of God and the life of God. Getting to understand what God is doing and being included into them, having relationship with Him and benifiting from what those things are.

[Paul Hazelwood]

we are saved from remaining dead.

But we don't remain dead, apart from Jesus. Both Moses and Elijah and even Samuel were seen in a physical forrm long after there deaths and Jesus had yet died.

What scriptures note that these were not vision but true physical forms?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Like I said earlier, these dogmatic statements are as real as they are to each individual and not single sourced, You claim it to be Jesus, another Budah another Muhadmad and even some through the teaching of Joseph Smith. And as much as you say you have a unique experience they same, as you say you have a clarity or an understanding they also say the same, or a revelation etc.

My point is, without a biblical concept, an ideology derived from the bible in which to test such claims, also to claim such things of what the gospel is there has to be a systematic biblical concept.

I personally have never claimed to have unique revelation specific to the english words in scripture.  I have said that the bible is a perspective of the same truth that is spiritually universal to other points of view. 

The reason I say that is while I understand the assertion that is often said that the "bible" is the final authority,  we have to realize that the scriptures are documents that have been compiled into what man calls the bible and has had additions and subtractions made by men and then we are supposed to somehow take that as some God given final authority to the book.

What I am getting at is that a verse that says what scripture is useful for,  you will find that spirituality has many scriptures that are not soley contained in what we call the bible and if we see scripture as a universal tool and not a leverage to a certain doctrine, you will see spiritual things open up wide to the positive.

The contradiction is to say that you would have a systematic belief of the bible that would prove all the others wrong, that simply is not true.  You cannot actually prove any of them wrong.

And who's systematic criteria do we listen to and whos is right?    That is the problem now in religious belief and those who think only their perspective is correct.

That was my original point.   I know people who would never fit in to any religious systematic criteria,  yet, they exhibit the characteristics of what we would consider Christlike as well as any other imperfect human might.   Does our systematic point of view then have the right to deem them anti-christs or unbelievers because they do not fit the "system".

My point is that even without the bible, they are spiritually as godly as anyone who stands and claims to adhere to certain religious persuasions.  It is men, who crush that spirit, not some factoid that says they didn't use the bible to someones satisfaction.

In fact the whole point of the bible is to tell us that we all fall short in a positive sense that there is much greater things to come, not in a demeaning fashion,  but all too many times the one holding the bible saying those words doesn't actually believe it applies to them in the same sense as someone else.

[peacemaker]

To reclaim me from this course of life (liberating us from the captivity or consequences of sin and death) was the sole purpose of his journey, least you be consigned to a state of wretchedness from which no human effort will deliver.

Exuberant Health (salvation) is to be fruitful, overcoming the other; a wretched life.

Saved means to be taken from a place of danger and put into a place of saftey.

Salvation; to greek words, So and Zo... when combined as SoZo, (excuse the english spelling) is a combintation of two ideas, 1. the things of and 2. the life of.  Therefore the context of the word implies the meaning and depth of it.

Save, heal, or to deliver; to make well or heal from suffering, to deliver from judgment, etc.
This can be physically, mentally or spiritually, predicated on the context as rightly stated.
However, Salvation is a complete deliverance, it's not based on a partial inclination.

peacemaker

[Dallas]

In fact the whole point of the bible is to tell us that we all fall short in a positive sense

Is this your systematic interpritation? If it is then should we ignore it for your point is that no one really understands it, and we can't trust them to thier interpretation.

Or are you saying we must all trust you, and that your deduction of what the whole bible is saying? Because that what your statement says, but your instructions teach us not to believe it.



This is the whole reason biblical literacy needs to be addressed. When I say systematic what I mean is a total understanding of bible literacy from front to back. The book Moby Dick is a book that needs to be understood in a certain way to obtain the autors intended meaning. The Bible is no different, a book. When it becomes open to interpretation then we get all the whateveres from the various religions as you mentioned. That however does not proclude the reality that a staight forward lituature meaning as intended from the authors is unobtainable.
Just because you don't understand the bible as a whole doesn't mean that the understanding isn't there.

[Paul Hazelwood]

No Dallas, your missing my point, in fact spirituality is very individual and  the bible being open to intepretation is not what causes people to be led astray, it is actually the insistance that there be one certain way to decide what it says and if you don't then there is a problem.

You have to see mens hearts at work and it has nothing to do with multiple interpretations of the bible, it is 33,000 sects of believers saying that you need to see it their way or your not as godly as they are.

You face a paradox,  you do not like my way of looking at the bible and put words into my mouth that you need to see it my way, no, you actually are saying that there must be one way to see it but you refuse to commit that it is your way that you want me to change to.

If that's not what your saying, then what is the only true systematic way to interpret scripture, surely you know what it is if your so certain other ways are wrong.

I am saying that the spiritual door is opened when individuals quit saying you must believe a certain way or your blind, not godly, still asleep, blah blah blah.

I have tried this as an experiment on forums, I simply put out what a verse means to me and along comes all the righteous saying how dangerous it is if I do not see it their way.  I have never done that, I think it is great if a verse means something different to someone else and yep, I can get caught  up in debate and argument.

But even here when the debate gets going and I am un moved by someone elses point of view, what comes out,  oh I am stubborn, I am unveiled, I am blind, I am sleeping I am obstinate and just wanting to start trouble.

Really pathetic when it comes down to it.   Is that what a systematic way of doing things does to people,  you can have it.

[Dallas]

Just because people are dogmatic and religous doesn't remove the fact that the author had a message that he was trying to convey.

I'm not arguing having opinion, even Peter says that the scriptures aren't open to interpretation. The problem lies in that people who don't understand what the context and book liturature are talking about create mystical and magicial ideas to help make themselves feel better.

The understanding of personal revelation is great, when it lines up with truth. The problem is when people who are illiterate invent ideas for self.

For instance, Jesus died on a cross. People are more than able to debate the power and the impact or the symoblism surrounding it, but you can't debate whether He died on a cross or not, it would go outside of what was written.

When people neglect the non-negotiable aspect of it they then make it what ever they want it is no longer a biblical conversation. These type of non-negotiables are fixed within the litterature and must be acknowledged otherwise there is no profitablity in the discussion.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I get what your saying, but my point of view has always been that an additional meaning in the spiritual does not cause one to need to rearrange or add or subtract from a verse when that happens.  I'm cool with understanding that once you start changing words, removing or adding them in order to make a point and at that point you might as well not even bother reading the bible

I most certainly try to do that.  If I see the story of Noah in the light of what God destroyed inside of me spiritually and what was saved in that light i have not changed one word of scripture to make that association.

For someone to say the bible says Jesus wasn't crucified they would have to change the text beyond the use of definitions theologians have come up with for words.  At that point it is easy to say that someone is simply making things up.

As far as that goes, then sure, because thats simple basic reading.

[Dallas]

For someone to say the bible says Jesus wasn't crucified they would have to change the text beyond the use of definitions theologians have come up with for words.  At that point it is easy to say that someone is simply making things up.

As far as that goes, then sure, because thats simple basic reading.

My whole assertion is this must be the base for any of our "dogmatic" doctrines and philosophies. I'm not taking away from the idea that a certain scripture may hit us differently at a time based on what we are going though in our lives at that certain moment....however to assert that because of that experience or moment we gain a spiritual insight to it is foolishness. The reading base will always remain the same, but our views on it will change because we change, however the text must remain constant.

I am not procluding our knowledge growing and understanding changing to a more indepth view, "The Cross however must always stay the cross"- so to speak.


So to my origonal point, what is the goodnews? There must be a biblically founded non-negotiable concept... if it is simply that all are saved, then why doesn't that cure the one who doesn't want to be saved? Or why hasn't that cured Catholosim, believers who think they are saved but we can clearly see that they as an organization have inmorality.

There must be more to it.....

[Paul Hazelwood]

I see your point Dallas,  perhaps you should build on the non negotiable truth that Jesus is the Saviour of all mankind.   

What are we saved from Dallas?, perhaps you can clear it all up.

[Dallas]

I see your point Dallas,  perhaps you should build on the non negotiable truth that Jesus is the Saviour of all mankind.

The problem is, people who typically think they belive in universal salvation actually don't. People still want to exclude people from the work of the cross until...; they make a choice, say a prayer, believe a certain doctrine, do a certain thing, reflect a certain idea..etc

To understand biblical universalism we must acknowledge the unbiased impartial "because of what Jesus did all people are included already." No one is on the outside looking in, the very foundation of the cross tells us sin has been taken care of, the thing that seperated man from God.

God wasn't ever going to deal with man on a one-on-one basis, who would have wanted to be in that waiting room, God was always dealing with man as a whole when it came to sin. God was interested in one thing, reconstructing the relationship with His children that was lost. He was never going to exclude anyone of them, and when Jesus came and dealt with sin, we all became close....does that mean that everyone has engaged with Him absolutley not, but as righteousness spreads so will the relationship. People, because of their ideas with hold themselves from God and don't experience Him, God isn't holding Himself back.

[jabcat]

Hi Dallas.  What are your thoughts on the following passages please?

1) He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."  Acts 16:30,31


2)..if you acknowledge with your mouth Yesu as the Master, and have faith in your heart that God has awakened Him from among the dead, you will be saved  Romans 10:9

-------
It's by grace we're saved, through faith, and that not of ourselves...so I understand it as, God gives each the faith to believe as He chooses and as suits His purposes and timing - each in His own order (I Cor. 15:23)

[jabcat]

A few more to consider, that as I understand, seem to tie into this thought -

It's by grace we're saved, through faith, and that not of ourselves...so I understand it as, God gives each the faith to believe as He chooses and as suits His purposes and timing - each in His own order (I Cor. 15:23)

and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and evil men; for all have not faith. 2 Thess. 3:2

So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

everyone who believes in him may not perish John 3:16

This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.  Romans 3:22

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Romans 3:28

So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.  romans 4:11

But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.  Gal. 3:22


I don't hold to a "you gotta conjure up enough faith to believe", "if you aren't a believer you never will be/it will be too late when you do", "you gotta say this or that forumulaic prayer"...  But I do believe the above scriptures need to be taken into account and believed, along with a whole lot of others with which to reconcile - and that all will be spiritually made alive, in their turn.  Also, that the Holy Spirit does that work in and through us.  That's how I understand it....Thanks, James.

[Dallas]

1) He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."  Acts 16:30,31

Those were instructions given to the Jews on what they must do in order to be saved from the coming destruction upon Jerusalem. You can't take context out otherwise anything could be surmised. The Jews were living under a knowledge that a great judgement was coming upon them, a complete destruction, when the savior appeared this was the sign the destruction was at hand. With the preaching of John the Baptist, people started responding and wanting to know what they must do in order to be spared from that destruction. The same Jews likewise preached the same message, even Peter in his sermon in Acts 2 when he said, "repent, and be saved from this wicked and perverse generation."

2)..if you acknowledge with your mouth Yesu as the Master, and have faith in your heart that God has awakened Him from among the dead, you will be saved  Romans 10:9

Paul is teaching here that the Jews had always had the message of faith, not the law, for even in the law was the command of faith. This is Hebrews 10 you are quoting, check it out, Paul is quoting from Dueteronomy. This isn't a list of accomplishment you have to do to be saved, this was Paul teaching the Jews that they, even though they had zeal, it wasn't according to knowledge, the knowledge that God was always within them on their lips and in thier hearts.