The world, man, and the heart

[Universalist Catholic]

World:  The bible says "be no part of the world" by world.  Is it correct to understand this the way many sects do so, where they refuse to be involved with anyone or anything outside their sect.  This seems pretty common with Jehovah's Witnesses, Pentecostals, Independent Baptists, and Fundamentalist Catholics and Protestants.  It seems to me that World is not trying to denote all of human society except for their sect, but forces invented by the world, that God had nothing to do with.

Man: "Traditions of men", "Obey God than man".  Some have used this to make the claim that humans are inheretently evil, and everything they do is automatically evil.  So, humans need to be lorded over by educated pastors and the letter of the law.  It seems to me that man in this context is referring to original inventions purely of man, having no authorship of God. 

The "Heart is Evil".  Used once again to justify the idea that reason, spirit and emotion are all corrupted, so we need the letter of the law to set us straight.  It seems like "The Heart" is explaining that which is purely invention of the Heart, having nothing to do with God. 

Does it seem like The World, Man, and the Heart are really symbolic for the elements created completely by the world, man, and the heart, with absolutely no authorship from God?  Basically all the Godless impurities that we are born with.

[gregoryfl]

I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses for several years, so I know all too well of the thinking you are talking about. Does being no part of the world mean avoiding those who do not believe? Here is what Paul has to say:

1Co 5:9  I wrote to you in my epistle not to associate with fornicators.
1Co 5:10  Yet I certainly did not mean with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world!

The world that we are to avoid, that we are no part of, is what John described:

1Jn 2:15  Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16  Because everything that is in the world--the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not from the Father but is from the world.
1Jn 2:17  And the world is passing away, and its lust; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

Just some thoughts to get started. :)

Ron

[gky]

The world that we are to avoid, that we are no part of, is what John described:

1Jn 2:15  Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16  Because everything that is in the world--the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not from the Father but is from the world.
1Jn 2:17  And the world is passing away, and its lust; but he who does the will of God abides forever.


Ironically (and this is only my perception and opinion), it is those who run
the current church system (pastors, "worship leaders", etc) that practice the above, basically TRANSFERRING the same selfish cravings/practices from
secular activities to religious activities.  The same power struggles, covetousness, envies, jealousies, selfish ambitions, etc are simply applied to religiousity vs. "worldy" ambitions, and a cloak of churchianity is used to
self-justify and calm one's conscious (perhaps becoming more and more
seared).   Once one presumes that God/Christ is approving/certifying
the self-proclaimed "ministry" activty, no one is within reach of providing
reproof or correction.

I know the above is harsh and perhaps accusatory, but again, just my
2 cents perception/opinion.   

[crescent moon]

I would agree with your understanding!  It just amazes me that I have found a group of believes that understand it the way I always have.  I can't count the number of times I have tried to point this out amongst 'mainstreamers.'  They just don't get it! 

I just had a discussion with someone about a judgement someone made.  Because the one making the judgement was a famous "Christian" with lots of $$$$$ for Jesus then no wrongdoing was seen.  BUT if that the judgement had come from some 'unbeliever', he/she ('unbeliever') would have been raked over the coals for the comment.  I tried to point out the hypocrisy to my friend.  I was accused of having attacked her christianity, hating Christians, and 'how dare I 'cause she & the one who made the comment are the Bride of Christ and He loves them.'

Funny... I recall being told that God holds us to a higher standard...but yet many use Him as the accuse to justify wrongdoing!  I pointed that out too, and just got accused of being a Christian hater!  All of this from someone that was a fellow missionary at one time in my life!

God have mercy on us all!!

[Universalist Catholic]

It seems like the traditionalist know that their beliefs are being disproven, and need to attack others. 

[sheila]

   Wow, this is a very timely topic for me.I had just been

contemplating some of these very things.

   I, too, was a jehovah's wittness...and just recently went to

an hour dance class,which I began to wonder if I was becoming

too'worldly' about [countryline dance] I'm isolated and don't

have much of a social life...I attended one class, and now am

expierncing 'pangs' could this be a 'left-over' from my jw

indoctrination?[possibly]..

   the scripture, I beleive says.quit mixing in company

with .anyone who calls himself a

brother and is a fornicator, etc

   You know Judge Rutherford set up the jw's org after

a 'buisiness' pattern..right down to the little breifcases and

bookbags. Seems odd he set it up in the image of a worldly

buisiness,until you realize that is exactly what it is.

                       Sheila

[Paul Hazelwood]

    could this be a 'left-over' from my jw

indoctrination?

In my opinion, yes.

[Universalist Catholic]

The thing I wonder about is why the only people who dont like Universalists are political, religious and economic forces.  But then Jesus said the world would hate us.  It makes sense, because Religious people, because this teaching of Universal salvation would threaten the control they have over others.  Without the threat of endless unbearable torture, or annihilation, the organized religious institutions would have no power to threaten people into obedience for all their manmade rules, which means less power that they would have, not to mention the lack of tithes they can make.  Political, not as prominent today, but most of those ET churches have connections to political powers, and if those ET churches fail, political powers suffer also.  Corporate, well they would no longer be able to sell all that garbage that plays on peoples fears with all this hellfire, and doomsday hoaxes, and dont forget all those spiritual objects sold that apparently save people from hell.  Those books from Bill Weise, Mary Baxter, Maurice Rawlings and all those other Hellish experiences would make no money.  The funny thing is, the more secular, acgnostic, and less zealous seem to like Universalists more than those ET believers.

[sheila]

Daniel prophesied that the saints were overcome. Paul spoke of

the man of lawlessness that was alrady in operation in his day.


    Jesus said 'tear this temple down and I will raise it up on the

  third day" The church has mixed old Adam with the new man in

Christ. The church is built upon the revelation of the son,and

God[on this rock] not a fleshly rock.even Peter's flesh,of which

Our Lord said to Him,'get behind me satan,for you have not the

mind of God on the matter, but of men[old Adam]


  That the saints were overcome is evident by the divisions in

the faith,over 32,000 of them. Jesus warned..be careful lest ye

devour one  another.


   Why would God allow the saints[beleivers of Christ] to be

overcome.? Because it is by HIS SPIRIT...and no flesh will boast

even Peter's[which says Mt 26;33  Peter replied, 'Even if all fall

away on account of you I never will'] Which is an impossible

thing, for the Word of the Lord must be fulfilled, this very night

you will all fall away on account of me , FOR IT IS WRITTEN:

'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of His flock will be

scattered".

   The falling away  1 Timothy 4;1 THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS

THAT IN LATER TIMES SOME WILL FALL AWAY FROM THE FAITH

AND FOLLOW DECEIVING SPIRITS...thus the saints are

overcome.

  But have no fear, for He has overcome the world. For He also

said 'Destroy this temple and I will raise it on the third day"

and though the man of sin has laid His body low for three and a

half  days

without burial[per the wittness of the Word of God come in

flesh through the Son and the Holy spirit]  A BREATH OF LIFE

FROM GOD WILL ENTER INTO THEM AND THEY WILL STAND ON

THEIR FEET....AND HEED A LOUD VOICE FROM HEAVEN,

SAYING TO THEM, COME UP HERE!!


   And HE WILL LIFT UP HIS BODY PER THE BREATH OF LIFE

   FROM GOD that has lain dead in the street of the great city,

which is  figuratlively called SODOM AND EGYPT.


   The LAST ADAM IS BECOME A LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT

   PRAISE GOD FOR HIS WONDERFUL WORKS!!