Haiti's Earthquake, Can we blame God for it?

[Nathan]

Hey guys, I've been on a leave of absense from the board for a while but I thought I'd swing by and pose a question . . .sort of pick your brain on it if you don't mind.  I was reading one of the many articles on the Haiti tragedy and at the end, they posted a lot of people's responses.  The story was about how a doc had to make the decision to amputate the arm of a dying teenager who was still trapped in the rubble.

In the beginning, many of the responses were prasing God for sending the doctors over there.  But it shortly turned around on them and people were sneering at the believers for their ignorance in thinking that God, who is a God of so called love, would also be the same God that would cause such a terrible thing to happen, or even allow it.  In other words, How can you be so dumb to praise a God for saving a life, when God was the one that brought the tragedy upon the victim in the first place?

I was just curious as to how this sort of question would be answered by the people on this board.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I'd have to say that the God they are mad at is a false God of Christianity in the first place.   Most of that line of questioning is from the Pat Robertsons view.  A view that Christians show their agreement with if they are silent in the wake of his words.

[Nathan]

Funny you should bring that up . . .I was sitting next to a guy here at work who was listening to Pat Robertson's "prophetic" reasoning on the internet. . .and even this guy listening could identify religion and religious banter when he saw it.  And all the message accomplished was a bunch of explicatives from those listening.  I sense people are tired of seeing religious leaders relentlessly kicking others while they are down.

Will the real Jesus Christ please stand up?

[CHB]

Well, God did create good and evil. And yes we can blame God, because nothing happens without his approval.

We can also praise God because of the immortality we will all experience some day.

Both of these statments have a negative and a positive, that is who God is. Or, I should say those are the tools he is using to teach us things.

Out of one side of our mouth we praise him for all the good and out of the other side we blame him for all the bad. We are like the children of Israel, we are never satisfied with either, good or bad.

That's life, that's the way the cookie crumbles. 

We have to learn to forgive God who has showered us with pain, sorrow, disasters, death, all the bad things that we experience. If we can learn to forgive God, then we can surely forgive our neighbors.

There is so much more that can be said on this.

CHB   

[jabcat]

Yeah C, I think there's a lot more here than meets the eye, and I personally don't know everything Pat Robertson said or thinks/believes, but from what I've personally heard, it doesn't sound as ridiculous as many are making it out to be.  We all have our own levels of understandings and revelation.  Some believe the wind blows and the earth quakes and God is just off somewhere paying little attention - or like salvation/hell, He'd sure like to do something about it but "that's just the way it is" - it's a natural phenomenon or something He can't or doesn't have any control over.  Couldn't (and doesn't) God either hold back the wind or release it ("even the winds obey Him!") or settle the earth or let it shake?

I confess, I don't know all the answers to this and I'm not quite as sure of my beliefs on it as you seem to be.  I don't believe I can "blame God", I don't think I have that right.  But I do read about God sending the experience of evil, Him judging, disciplining, correcting (anyone remember Sodom and Gomorrah?).  The world doesn't want to hear those things, and they scoff.  That doesn't necessarily mean that God's not involved, they just don't like it or want to believe it.  They did scoff and laugh at His Son after all.  

I said before, I can judge no one (I have my own many faults and struggle with sin) and I don't fully know God's heart or ways.  And, I agree the bottom lines are to humble ourselves before Him whatever He does or doesn't do, and then reach out to help those that are hurting and in need of help.  I think about these things a lot, on different levels of life in general, and sure don't have it figured out.  I just have to believe that whatever occurs, God is ultimately in control and He's got things ultimately headed to perfection.  

God WILL save the people of Haiti, but we do need to provide food, water, and love.

[Seth]

I guess the deeper issue is if we "provide food, water, and love" do we say we did that or like Paul do we say "I, yet not I but by the grace provided me" (paraphrase). In other words, is it really our own works or the invisible hand of God in our actions even when we don't realize that. That would make God, again, the one in charge of salvation from sin, and the one who is doing the work of conforming us to the image of the Son, rather than separating God from it, as though God does the saving, and we do the watering, feeding and loving. I see it as God doing all of it, even when we are not aware of that in the moment. Just some thoughts..

[Nathan]

Okay, good stuff from all and thanks for your insights.  Here's what I see on these matters.

Seldom do people turn to the New Testament when attempting to explain the judgments of God.  They most always point to Old Testament examples of what God would do when people didn't choose to do things His way.  I think there can still be revelance there of course, but when searching for the "why's" of darkness around us, I believe the New Testament is much more revealing on such matters than the Old.  But in order to see from the New, we first do need to have some grasp of what all did happen in the Old.

For starters, I'd have to go all the way back to Genesis and see that once Adam and Eve were no longer in the garden, the rules changed because they now had to fend for themselves in a realm that was governed by carnal principles and powers rather than by spiritual revelation they were able to thrive from when in the garden.

But even though this realm is governed by carnality, we are still the highest being in this realm and we've been given the invisible authority to rule and reign over the happenings of this realm.  I believe we "can" change the course of nature if we'd simply exercise in the realm where our dominion and authority lies.

I personally don't believe God caused the earthquake.  And I don't believe it came to him for permission first either.  I believe, to use the clichet if you don't mind . . .it's simply the "nature of the beast".  And I'm not talking about "the" beast of Revelation or anything of that nature.  I believe it's simply the activity of the goings on in the realm in which we live in. 

This realm is not the permanent realm for me.  It's a temporary place where I am to reproduce the nature of God in others so that what is in his kingdom can manifest in this one.  It's Jesus prayer all over again . ."thy will be done ON EARTH as . .it . . .is . .in heaven.

This realm is basically death and decay.  That's power of carnality.  It comes to steal, kill, and destroy.  Does God allow it?  Adam is the one who chose to live by it.  This is all a continual consequence of Adam's original decision to eat, to become governed by knowledge.  God gave us that choice.  If he were to intervein on his own accord, then it would mean that he really didn't give us authority to rule.  But he did.  The reason why these terrible things happen . . .again, just my personal opinion, but I believe one, it's because of the realm in which we live, and two, it's because we don't exercise the authority given to us.

God told Cain that sin was waiting at his door, but that he would rule over it.  Yet Cain went out and killed Abel anyway.  Cain was given the authority not to be governed by death, but he didn't exercise that authority, instead, he did the same thing his Dad did, Adam was to rule over his earth and he didn't do it either.  Instead, both he and his son submitted that which they were to subdue.

So, no, I don't believe God caused the destruction.  But I do believe God sent the healing hands of others.  Through us, his glory manifests in others.  Through us, his will can be done on earth, as it is in heaven.  He chose to manifest through us.  And if we don't exercise that gift, then darkness rules the night.  But when we do exercise his gift, we can actually declare the fault lines to find their peace . . .we can declare mountains to be removed . . .we can see, appreciate and even be directed by the stars that illuminate the night.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Well, a few things to consider.



While it is said God can do anything in order to chastise people and this earthquake could be one means to that end.

Why don't God punish people with an earthquake along an area that doesn't have a fault line?   Why would katrina be punishment, why not make a hurricane happen where they are not known to happen.   A whole town here in Kansas was destroyed by a tornado, I don't remember Pat associating that with the SINS of Greensburg Kansas, or perhaps he did and I missed it?

Why didn't God destroy greensburg with something that was not already scientifically known for the region?

Is God then limited to destroying someone based upon the physical factors of a regions climate and subterrain?

[whyiloveitaly.com]

I don't think it's "blaming" God. It's simply understanding that God does all things for His purposes. He is above, we are below. His ways are not His ways.
Man usually says, "oh, I could never do that to my creatures if I was God!!" But we are not more just than Him. He gives life and He takes life away. And we can't understand His thoughts, at least not in this realm. He likes to hide. (Isa. 45:15)

Of course, this is easy to say when you're not involved firsthand in the matter.. However, I do believe that it is only God who is responsibile. Suffering is a big part of what God wants for us in this life. And that is hard to accept, especially if you don't believe in Him!!

Blessings,
Brian

[jabcat]

Paul, thanks for seeing this as us "thinking" together.  A couple of thoughts that occur to me;  maybe God uses whatever is readily available - at the very least, He could hold back the earth from shifting if He chose to.  Or He could push the tornado aside if He chose to.  :dontknow:  I believe there are instances of Him bringing "un-natural" things into play as well (Red Sea, amazingly amount of locusts, people's hearts just suddenly stopping beating [Ananias and Saphira]).  And He also drops manna from heaven.  So, I'm NOT saying God was judging Haiti, I don't know, but it's something I wonder about.

Good thoughts Brian.

Hi Nathan.  Your views on "the fall", and now all/much evil is strictly based solely on what Adam and Eve decided on their own, is something I've at least s/w moved away from over the past couple of years, seeing more so "God works all things according to the counsel of HIS will" [although He does require us to make choices within parameters He sets and allows - reaping/sowing, etc].  (NOT TO START ANOTHER F/W VS. SOV ARGUMENT!  Just a brief observation of your mention of how you see evil and mercy developing and playing themselves out.)  Many similar, not so similar, and diametrically opposed views on that one, so I'll leave it there.  


A lot to think about for sure.  There's still a bottom line though for me...walking humbly before God, giving food and drink.  (and yes Seth, I do believe it's "I, yet not I [God doing it through us]".

I've probably said plenty, I'll try to get out now.  God is good, even if I don't always realize it, notice it, or my hard/carnal/deceitful heart hinders me from seeing it.  He is still good, He blesses us daily (just and unjust) and I owe Him everything - my very breath.  He has been so good and blessed me and my family to the point of I can have NO complaints.  Everything works together for good....Thank you God for Your mercy.

Take care guys, James.

[Seth]

James  :thumbsup:

Nathan, interesting POV. It's sort of how John says that let no man say he is tempted of God to sin, yet all things are of God. I think the solution is in seeing how Jesus was tempted in the wilderness. God didn't tempt him, but the Spirit did lead him to BE tempted, so it was still of God without it BEING God who did it. I see the Haiti earthquake the same way, which I think is similar to what you are saying, though I do not see a hands-off God in this world, I do see that there are different components at work in the system. So without getting to involved in the free will thing, I'll just say that if God knows it to happen (assuming he didn't do it himself for whatever reason), and does nothing to stop it, being that he is the owner of his creation, and is able to stop the quake before it happened, that the occurrence was in his plan and who knows how that ugly butterfly will flap its wings and create a better tidal wave as time goes by... I just live on trust.

[Beloved Servant]

This temporal, things seen, world we live in has been created for the occasion.
The things unseen are eternal.
We are still living in the time allotted for creation to come into the fullness of Christ Jesus.
The Father said of Jesus: I AM well pleased.
That was BEFORE Jesus was lead into the wilderness to prove to the principalities that exist.
Until His whole body does the same, the creation groans and travails and suffers for the manifestation of the Sons of God.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

things happen - [mod edit]

[Beloved Servant]

Lee, that is foul and heartless!
And would never leave the lips of Christ.

[Beloved Servant]

HOLD FAST !

www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Hny-xp4k9c&feature=related

WE'RE IN HIS GRASP!

[noname]

question: if the earth is a living organism, aren't we doing this to ourselves?

we have raped, plundered, bombed, zapped the ionosphere with our HAARP weapons and who knows what else...do we blame all this on God or poor Adam?
Or do we start taking responsibilitty for the destruction of our mother earth ourselves?
what about the simple equation of cause and effect?
God gave us dominion to protect, develop and nurture the earth (well, for those who believe they are children of God)...are we doing His will?

[CHB]

I was thinking about Haiti and all of the lessons that are being learned from the earthquake. I am not talking about just those of Haiti but people all around the world. People around the world learn to be compassionate, and giving. People of Haiti learn to be humble, see miracles, learn there is a God that ruleth in the heavens. Sometimes it is hard to accept gifts from others or admit that we need help. If there was no disasters or reasons for giving, helping, or accepting help, we would all be one selfish arrogant bunch of people. It is all for a reason. I don't know why God picked Haiti but who knows the next time it could be the US.

CHB

[chuckt]

Hey guys, I've been on a leave of absense from the board for a while but I thought I'd swing by and pose a question . . .sort of pick your brain on it if you don't mind.  I was reading one of the many articles on the Haiti tragedy and at the end, they posted a lot of people's responses.  The story was about how a doc had to make the decision to amputate the arm of a dying teenager who was still trapped in the rubble.

In the beginning, many of the responses were prasing God for sending the doctors over there.  But it shortly turned around on them and people were sneering at the believers for their ignorance in thinking that God, who is a God of so called love, would also be the same God that would cause such a terrible thing to happen, or even allow it.  In other words, How can you be so dumb to praise a God for saving a life, when God was the one that brought the tragedy upon the victim in the first place?

I was just curious as to how this sort of question would be answered by the people on this board.

when Gods Judgments are in the earth its inhabitants will learn righteousness.

peace
chuckt/euty

[whyiloveitaly.com]

I think it would be interesting to do a study to see if indeed Christians live longer, happier, healthier lives than "unbelievers."

Do disasters only happen to the "heathen?" Were there "fundamental Christians" killed in the earthquake? If so, was it because they were backslidden? Maybe they had "hidden sins???"

I'd love to see some numbers...

Blessings,
brian

[chuckt]

I think it would be interesting to do a study to see if indeed Christians live longer, happier, healthier lives than "unbelievers."

Do disasters only happen to the "heathen?" Were there "fundamental Christians" killed in the earthquake? If so, was it because they were backslidden? Maybe they had "hidden sins???"

I'd love to see some numbers...

Blessings,
brian

and what about las vegas??  :dontknow:  :happy3:

[CHB]

 Trials, and tribulations happen to those who are righteous. Take for instance, Job, Joseph, Daniel, the apostles, especially Paul, then there is Jesus who suffered the most of all the others. Of course it rains on the good and the bad but it seems that the righteous gets the most heat.

CHB

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Hi ChuckT!
In fact, it's funny that preachers haven't come down hard on sinners in Las Vegas.. But don't worry, if something happens, it'll be their fault.

Trials, and tribulations happen to those who are righteous. Take for instance, Job, Joseph, Daniel, the apostles, especially Paul, then there is Jesus who suffered the most of all the others. Of course it rains on the good and the bad but it seems that the righteous gets the most heat.

Somehow I get the feeling that TBN wouldn't quite agree with you there CHB........

:HeartThrob: to all,
Brian

[firstborn888]

I've been around natural disaster theology like Pat's for a long time. It's every bit as superstitious as the voodoo pact Pat blames for the shifting of tectonic plates.

[sheila]

Matthew 24;7

   You will hear of wars and rumours of wars, see to it that you

  are not alarmed.


      SUCH THINGS MUST HAPPEN

  but the end is still to come.Nation will rise against nation and

  kingdom against kingdom . Ther will be famines


  AND  EARTHQUAKES IN VARIOUS PLACES



   ALL THESE ARE THE BEGINNING OF BIRTH PAINS


   These are all the SIGN OF HIS COMING

   
   AND THE END OF THE AGE

   

   At that time the sign of

  the SON OF MAN WILL APPEAR  IN THE SKY...

  .AND ALL NATIONS WILL MOURN [not just Haaiti]


   ps[there's not been a child of God sent down to this earth

realm that hasn't suffered evil,in many various forms]

  Compassion and mercy are certainly required at this time,

  as it is in all trialsome,greivous circumstances


   note the 'word'  MUST    Rev 4;1  After this I looked and there

before me was a DOOR STANDING OPEN IN HEAVEN. And

the voice that I had first heard speaking to me said

  'COME UP HERE, AND I WILL SHOW YOU WHAT

       MUST TAKE PLACE AFTER THIS


   must = the expressed juice of the grape, the new or unfermented state,[just a few interesting meanings I found in the dictionary]

        :HeartThrob: Sheila

[CHB]

Hi ChuckT!
In fact, it's funny that preachers haven't come down hard on sinners in Las Vegas.. But don't worry, if something happens, it'll be their fault.

Trials, and tribulations happen to those who are righteous. Take for instance, Job, Joseph, Daniel, the apostles, especially Paul, then there is Jesus who suffered the most of all the others. Of course it rains on the good and the bad but it seems that the righteous gets the most heat.

Somehow I get the feeling that TBN wouldn't quite agree with you there CHB........

:HeartThrob: to all,
Brian

Hi Brian,

That's not the only thing they wouldn't agree with me on.

CHB     :happy3: