I was asked a good question.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Usually when questioned about my beliefs you can tell the loaded question,  but I think in this case it is a reasonable question that can apply to any faith.


I was asked, "If our salvation is secure and there is total assurance and death is something to not fear then why not end our lives and pass on the the next level now?


I had to think about that one for a while since my past does contain the idea of ending my life for that very reason.  I also remember being in a church and the pastor always made the comment about being glad we woke up alive and able to come to church and he would then tag on the end  (considering the alternative, implying death)

Sometimes though I thought,  well, if going to be with the Lord is such a wonderful thing, then would the alternative be that Grim.

What really is so grim about dying if we are on our way to perfection, if our salvation is secure no matter what, then does it matter that we cherish our lives so much on earth (rhetorical).


After actually being confronted for once with a question that someone hadn't loaded the shotgun with I realized that not cherishing our lives now is one of selfishness.

It is selfish to think that God put me down here to just slit my wrists because the RACE is hard to run.  It is selfish to think that we can subject our loved ones to such an event and skate on into paradise without so much as a second thought.  I also believe from any point of view that it is selfish to think that our life doesn't have any meaning at all, no matter who it is.

Lastly I think it is important to know that as much as we think we know as much as we are convinced of good news and glory,  we can't actually prove anything.   The bible never talks about proof, it talks about hope and living properly being better each day. 

An aspect of life that all walks of belief benefit from.

That was my answer to the question,  what would yours be?

[WhiteWings]

Good question....

Ask a believer about heaven and the most beautifull stories are told.
But somehow people have excuses hardcoded into them. Like "But my family..."
or "It's a deadly sin... (toast)"
When we read read a newpaper article about a woman that killed her child(ren) to secure a spot in heaven for them we start discussions about "mentally ill".
But noone says: "Great those children are in Heaven now."
Same thing when someone died in some other way.

I wonder what the Bible says about it...
On this forum people wrote that no one asked for this life. It was given by God.
Then, scriptually speaking, do we have the authority to end it?

It's a bit like "Everyone wants to grow old; but nobody wants to be old."
...
"Everybody wants to be in Heaven but nobody wants to die."

[Lupac]

Wow... This is a topic I actually have a lot to say on. Mostly because, about a year ago... Well I never "wanted" to end my life. I just thought about it. (You know your OCD is bad when you think about killing yourself to make it stop.) I've, never told that to anyone on the internet before. If you want to full story, you can PM me. It's kind of OT.

Anyway, if I was 100% sure I A. Wouldn't face some kind of punishment for it. (I'm pretty sure suicide is a sin, although I don't know the book/chapter/verse.) B. Had experienced everything I wanted to on Earth. and C. Had enough faith.

I don't think I have enough faith that God is really there to end my life. Now that I think about, that's pretty sad. I try my best to have faith, I would die for God, but I'm not sure I'd be able to end my life for Him. I guess I'm a pretty sad excuse for a servant...

[reFORMer]

While this answer is not enough for me it'll help for a while.  The answer I've given several times is that it may be much harder without a body to develop as God has determined you must.  The body is sort of a cushion while you, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."  None can escape being formed by the Creator.  If you think it's hard now, just cut yourself off from the process in this flesh.  There's no way back.  You'll have to be processed without your body or even in a resurrection body.

With a body you can scream.  Without it...well, remember the title of a short story from a few years ago?  "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream."  If someone is a drunkard and satisfies his thirst by drinking, when he dies he'll have the thirst but no means to slake it.  This is a partial explanation of the "fires" the rich man experienced in the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man.  Everyone of us need to lay our all on the altar before the presence of the Lord and cast ourself on His mercy.  Whatever we may even legitimately desire we need to place our desire in the hand of the Lord.  The commandment to not "lust" is the one that slew the apostle Paul.

[jabcat]

I don't think I have enough faith that God is really there to end my life. Now that I think about, that's pretty sad. I try my best to have faith, I would die for God, but I'm not sure I'd be able to end my life for Him. I guess I'm a pretty sad excuse for a servant...

I am a servant, I am waiting for Your call
I've been unfaithful so I sit here in the hall
How can You use me when I've never given all
How can You choose me when You know I quickly fall


So You feed my soul and you make me whole
And you let me know You love me
And I'm worthless now but I've made a vow
I will humbly bow before You
Oh please use me, I am lonely  (larry norman)


And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.  Cor. 12:9

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHBV0O_Q90c

[CHB]

I use to think that someone who committed suicide was weak and selfish. Weak because they couldn't handle the situation and selfish because they took the easy way out. Although this is true, I think this was the way they were meant to die or else they wouldn't have committed suicide.

Doesn't God hold life and death in his hands? We do not have the power over life and death. Have you ever heard about people who tried to commit suicide and was not successful? It wasn't their time to die. There have been people who Doctors have said that should have been dead from auto wrecks or other mishapes but survived. It wasn't their time to die.   (Ecc. 3:2) "A time to be born, and a time to die".   

CHB

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: My take on it is close to reFormer's.

1) Death in any form robs Him of a vessel to manifest in (He said, how have ye robbed Me? In tithes and offerings/make of yourselves a living sacrifice = something OFFERED)

2) it is a thief which we are to stand against, and,

3) it robs us of being able to work out the salvation (means deliverance also) of our SOUL, with fear and trembling.

But when 95% of Christendom does not teach deliverance of the soul, ie. the sanctification of the soul modeled by the inner court, then the end result is you have people that think all they have to do is sit on a church pew for the next 40 years and listen to rapture messages over and over again until they die waiting for a false hope....... :sigh: Blessings...

[Nathan]

Paul, your response seems to resonate the most in me as well.

There were specific occasions where Jesus was deliberate in instructing the few that were with him to "tell no one what you have seen here. . ."  for example, the mount of transfiguration comes to mind.  There were only three disciples there and they were not to even go tell the other nine what they'd seen.  Why?  I believe it all has to do with intimacy.  We're all at different levels of intimacy with the Father.  Some see more, some see less . . some just see differently. 

For one to understand that God has already taken care of our destination in the end, for the entire human race to finally be one in him . . .for one to see that and then desire to just end life here is kind of like saying an infant can eat strong meat and yet still live as an infant.  In other words, it takes some maturity to grasp the depth of God's love for us to the point that all are saved. 

In that maturity, we then want to revert back to infancy and think that suicide is God's plan for us.  I believe it's a childish nature of one to pursue this alternative.  Jesus never once implied that we would not have tribulation.  In fact, he stated the very opposite.  Paul even taught that it's "through" tribulation that we become stronger in our faith.  Jesus himself prayed that we not be removed from this earth, but that we be given strength to withstand the temptations we face.

So for the individual to ask the question is evidence they don't see the true nature of God in their own life yet.  They're still missing the point and purpose of this truth that sets us free.  I'm still thinking about "me" if I think that suicide is the best alternative. 

At the same time, I also don't believe that there is still to be some sort of price to be paid once I leave this realm.  It took me some time to absorb this, but the more I realized just how far the power of the cross reaches, the more I was able to let go of my preconceived notions that there is any kind of retributional experience awaiting me at my last breath in this realm.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Another aspect of suicide: it hurts those around us. Even if it's "only" the policeman or neighbor who finds you dead, it's still traumatic, and causes suffering.
Still, I do agree that we should be seeing the "excitement" of getting "transformed" just as Paul did: "to me, to die is GAIN (to be with Christ is far better)."

Blessings to all,
Brian

[lomarah]

:cloud9: My take on it is close to reFormer's.

1) Death in any form robs Him of a vessel to manifest in (He said, how have ye robbed Me? In tithes and offerings/make of yourselves a living sacrifice = something OFFERED)

2) it is a thief which we are to stand against, and,

3) it robs us of being able to work out the salvation (means deliverance also) of our SOUL, with fear and trembling.

But when 95% of Christendom does not teach deliverance of the soul, ie. the sanctification of the soul modeled by the inner court, then the end result is you have people that think all they have to do is sit on a church pew for the next 40 years and listen to rapture messages over and over again until they die waiting for a false hope....... :sigh: Blessings...

Cardinal, thanks for this post. I completely agree. And I really needed to hear it. 

[rosered]

 This is a  really good thread ... 
and gets to the heart of the matter ......
it is impossible to  be ''secure '' in your salvation with so much misery  on every side
  we are really ''groaning in the spirit''    for deliverance ..  for all .to the point of a righteous anger  like Jesus  does  perhaps .....

groaned Strong's G1690 - embrimaomai From ἐν (G1722) and brimaomai (to snort with anger)


1) to charge with earnest admonition, sternly to charge, threatened to enjoin

Jhn 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,  And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see. Jesus wept. Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him! 

its certain   death is a  thing holding/ clinging  to  life  that must be
eradicated


obliterate, uproot, exterminate, annihilate  abolish. destroy and remove
utterly by the power of God in His Spirit  which really is His glory  done in each and every one of  us ...  :icon_flower:

[lomarah]

 :dsunny: :goodpost: :dsunny:

[MusicLover123]

I was thinking of what the purpose of this life is. To know good and evil, right?

Ecclesiastes 1:13
13And I have given my heart to seek and to search out by wisdom concerning all that hath been done under the heavens. It [is] a sad travail God hath given to the sons of man to be humbled by it.

Romans 3-5
3And not only [so], but we also boast in the tribulations, knowing that the tribulation doth work endurance;
4and the endurance, experience; and the experience, hope;
5and the hope doth not make ashamed, because the love of God hath been poured forth in our hearts through the Holy Spirit that hath been given to us.

Where else would our desire to stay alive come from? This experience of evil is something we HAVE to know, in order to be sons of God, to come to the FULL knowledge of the truth, to perfectly wield God's sword in discernment.

[marie glen]

Amen!

We must be on the same wavelength.. I was reading John 17:17 in the Contemporary English Version which says it like this, 13 - I am coming to You, but I say these things while I am still in the world so their joy will be complete like Mine.. 17 - Your Word is "the" truth (The is in the Greek) So let this truth make them completely yours." Lately I've been thinking God's Word is like a computer program, and we're being programmed. Which is a good thing, not bad! The other is according to the 'god' of this world.. And the phrase "wholly sanctified" (set apart.. Paul wrote (1 Thess 5:23, I think) May your whole spirit, soul and body be preserved without defect USF or to the coming of the Lord." Without defect, I think, includes the mind! (Wholly programmed! :banana: )
"They will know you by your love" later on in Jn 17. (Et produces the opposite!)

I'm going on a camping trip, planning on a lot of reading, etc! Without the distraction of the internet and daily life. :cloud9: Great post(s)! (ML and all of the above!)

[MusicLover123]

Amen!

We must be on the same wavelength.. I was reading John 17:17 in the Contemporary English Version which says it like this, 13 - I am coming to You, but I say these things while I am still in the world so their joy will be complete like Mine.. 17 - Your Word is "the" truth (The is in the Greek) So let this truth make them completely yours." Lately I've been thinking God's Word is like a computer program, and we're being programmed. Which is a good thing, not bad! The other is according to the 'god' of this world.. And the phrase "wholly sanctified" (set apart.. Paul wrote (1 Thess 5:23, I think) May your whole spirit, soul and body be preserved without defect USF or to the coming of the Lord." Without defect, I think, includes the mind! (Wholly programmed! :banana: )
"They will know you by your love" later on in Jn 17. (Et produces the opposite!)

I'm going on a camping trip, planning on a lot of reading, etc! Without the distraction of the internet and daily life. :cloud9: Great post(s)! (ML and all of the above!)

Wonderful!  :dsunny:

Thanks for the feedback! Safe travels for your camping trip!

[Dandelion]

Philippians 1:

12Now I want you to know, brothers, that my circumstances have actually served to advance the gospel. 13As a result, it has become clear throughout the whole palace guarda and to everyone else that I am in chains for Christ. 14And most of the brothers, confident in the Lord by my chains, now dare more greatly to speak the wordb without fear.

15It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16The latter do so in love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. 17The former, however, preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing they can add to the distress of my chains.

18What, then, is the issue? Only that in every way, whether by false motives or true, Christ is preached. And in this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice, 19because I know that through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, my distress will turn out for my deliverance. 20I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have complete boldness, so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death.

To Live is Christ
21For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. 23I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. 24But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

25Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, 26so that through my coming to you again, your exultation in Christ Jesus will resound on account of me.

Ephesians 2:

1As for you, you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3We all lived among them at one time in the cravings of our flesh, indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.

Jeremiah 29:11 New International Version (NIV)

11 For I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

Philippians 1:6 New International Version (NIV)

6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Matthew 5:

13You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its savor, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.

14You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a basket. Instead, they set it on a lampstand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

D.

[rosered]

 Amen D ! 

We are all called according to Gods purpose  .. called for the glory of God  though Christ .

  From slaves  to sin /death  to  slaves in Christ /life   till the  Child be formed in you ... ,

Gal 4 1What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a child,

he is no different from a slave,

although he is the owner of everything.

2He is subject to guardians and trustees until the date set by his father.

3So also, when we were children, we were enslaved under the basic principles of the world.


4But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

5to redeem those under the Law, that we might receive our adoption as sons.

6And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"

7So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, you are also an heir through God.

Strong's G1398 - douleuō
δουλεύω
Transliteration

douleuō

Pronunciation

dü-lyü'-ō (Key)


Part of Speech

verb
Root Word (Etymology)

From δοῦλος (G1401)


Vines



Outline of Biblical Usage
to be a slave, serve, do service

of a nation in subjection to other nations

metaph. to obey, submit to

in a good sense, to yield obedience

in a bad sense, of those who become slaves to some base power, to yield to, give one's self up to


Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 25
AV — serve 18, be in bondage 4, do service 3
Strong's Definition (Help) (Legend)
δουλεύω douleúō, dool-yoo'-o; from G1401; to be a slave to (literal or figurative, involuntary or voluntary):—be in bondage, (do) serve(-ice).

  Obedient to the   desires of God  to fulfill all things   though our Lord Jesus Christ , without  faith/substance  it is impossible to please GOD
5287 hypóstasis(from 5259 /hypó, "under" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – properly, (to possess) standing under a guaranteed agreement ("title-deed"); (figuratively) "title" to a promise or property, i.e. a legitimate claim (because it literally is, "under a legal-standing") – entitling someone to what is guaranteed under the particular agreement.

For the believer, 5287 /hypóstasis ("title of possession") is the Lord's guarantee to fulfill the faith He inbirths (cf. Heb 11:1 with Heb 11:6). Indeed we are only entitled to what God grants faith for (Ro 14:23).

Like 16
  11If, then, you have not been faithful with worldly wealth, who will entrust you with true riches?


12And if you have not been faithful with the belongings of another, who will give you belongings of your own?