The pros and cons of Universal, not all will be saved.

[IceDash]

This one pretty tough, she talked about the pro and con of universal salvation and she believe that not all will be saved, here what she said:

e looked at this issue for a while as I was confronted by UR believers. I will say that I don't necessarily believe the doctrine of hell is an essential belief of the believers.

Some believe in an afterlife punishment that is not eternal-it's corrective in nature not punitive. They believe that God's grace extends after physical life and that God's work through Jesus Christ does not fail, and that He will indeed be the Savior of the world.

After studying the issue carefully, I've determined that it is a portion of sitting on God's throne and judgment that is not for mere mortals to determine. This verse is a warning against thinking we know prior to the Great White Throne what God will do:

But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down from above) or, "'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
Rom 10:6-8 (see also Deut 30:12-14)

The UR believer makes some very good points on some issues, however they seemed to be obsessed with proving that there is no hell or that God will not send humans there. Some pros/cons on each side of the issue, as I've seen it:

One of their points that I believe has merit is that with hell hanging in the balance that a person isn't really loving God out of genuine love but out of self-preservation. It lends credit that God's power isn't through Christ, but through hell, and without hell God would be powerless to save anyone. For all of those who would deny this, then hell is not an essential doctrine of faith. Instead they say that God's laws of sowing and reaping (wages of sin is death) are how God operates. For instance, believers don't refrain from adultry bc they fear everlasting hell, but bc of through God's enlightening they fear the hell it will put them through in this life, and the natural consequences of sin. On that point, I agree. The doctrine of hell is not how I witness to ppl. And since the Enlightenment Age, it's been diminishing from the body in practical application.

How often do we as believers meditate on the goodness of hell? It says we should if it's scriptural. This is what I mean by practical application...it's a doctrine we acquiesce to, but is virtually shelved. We give it an intellectual assent bc we believe it to be scriptural, but we find ways around it when it becomes too difficult for us to believe (i.e. age of accountability--historically unbaptized babies were taught to have gone to hell, then limbo, today there is little to no belief that God will send them to hell).

Now to the cons...

Scripture very much does talk about hell in the OT. One verse that comes to mind (and this is off the top of my head so it may be a bit paraphrased)is Daniel where he says God will raise, "some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting contempt" (Dan 12:2).

Here is another in Isaiah:

The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Jude tells us that the fire of Soddom and Gommorah is a foreshadowing of the eternal fire of judgment. One of the words used in translation of "hell" in the NT is Gehana which was a valley used as a perpetual burning dump for Israel. It seems odd to me that Jesus would say that one was in danger of the fires of the Valley of Gehana speaking of the actual place of Gehana and not the concept of the perpetual burning.

And we haven't even touched the Lake of Fire spoken of in Revelation.

The sticking point for me is that man seldom considers hell for themselves. It's similar to abortion proponents, it's a good solution for everyone else, but not something one accepts as a solution for themselves. Therefore, I believe it is a judgment left solely to God. Everyone desires Grace, yet deserves hell. It could be that hell is the greatest monument to God's failure, but in saying that the UR believer judges God on his standards of success and failure, and His ways are higher than our ways or intellect.

And to me that is very dangerous ground to stand on. God is not obligated to save all men. Nor is He obligated to sentence eternal punishment to those we believe should get it. IMO, his parable of the Prodigal Son, and the parable of laborers of the vineyard, that God's Mercy is HIS to grant on or withhold from mankind-not ours to determine.




What do you guys think? She pretty smart about this

I got this from this website:
http://www.thetreeofliberty.com/vb/showthread.php?t=88172&page=3

[WhiteWings]

Scripture very much does talk about hell in the OT. One verse that comes to mind (and this is off the top of my head so it may be a bit paraphrased)is Daniel where he says God will raise, "some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting contempt" (Dan 12:2).

Here is another in Isaiah:

The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Evelasting is translated from owlam.
Meaning:  1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world 1a) ancient time, long time (of past) 1b) (of future) 1b1) for ever, always 1b2) continuous existence, perpetual 1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

Jude tells us that the fire of Soddom and Gommorah is a foreshadowing of the eternal fire of judgment.

Jude 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Just on equestion. Is the fire still burning?

Everyone desires Grace, yet deserves hell. It could be that hell is the greatest monument to God's failure, but in saying that the UR believer judges God on his standards of success and failure, and His ways are higher than our ways or intellect.

Are we judging God for failure or are we just repeating what (we think) He said?

The Lakey part is for others to anwer....

[sven]

Scripture very much does talk about hell in the OT. One verse that comes to mind (and this is off the top of my head so it may be a bit paraphrased)is Daniel where he says God will raise, "some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting contempt" (Dan 12:2).

Daniel 12:2 is the one and only verse in the OT that can be used to support ET, "hell" (sheol) in the OT is the abode of all the dead, the KJV translates sheol both with "hell" and "grave", each about 30 times.

According to Ezekiel 16, Soddom and Gommorah shall be restored, Jesus said judgment will be more tolerable for the people of Soddom than for others, therefore Jude 7 rather supports univeralism than the way round.

[MacPherson]

Scripture very much does talk about hell in the OT. One verse that comes to mind (and this is off the top of my head so it may be a bit paraphrased)is Daniel where he says God will raise, "some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting contempt" (Dan 12:2).

Daniel 12:2 is the one and only verse in the OT that can be used to support ET, "hell" (sheol) in the OT is the abode of all the dead, the KJV translates sheol both with "hell" and "grave", each about 30 times.

The question is, what is everlasting contempt? It's said that the serial killer Jeffery Dahmer was saved before he was killed in prison. But how long will it be before any (American at least) names there kid Jeffrey Dahmer?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Dahmer
Could one say then that figuratively speaking, the name of Jeffrey Dahmer will be held in everlasting contempt? As in nobody will EVER name their kid Jeffrey Dahmer. How many Jewish kids have been named Ahab or Jezebel?

[IceDash]

Scripture very much does talk about hell in the OT. One verse that comes to mind (and this is off the top of my head so it may be a bit paraphrased)is Daniel where he says God will raise, "some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting contempt" (Dan 12:2).

Daniel 12:2 is the one and only verse in the OT that can be used to support ET, "hell" (sheol) in the OT is the abode of all the dead, the KJV translates sheol both with "hell" and "grave", each about 30 times.

Same thing with judas
The question is, what is everlasting contempt? It's said that the serial killer Jeffery Dahmer was saved before he was killed in prison. But how long will it be before any (American at least) names there kid Jeffrey Dahmer?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Dahmer
Could one say then that figuratively speaking, the name of Jeffrey Dahmer will be held in everlasting contempt? As in nobody will EVER name their kid Jeffrey Dahmer. How many Jewish kids have been named Ahab or Jezebel?

[claypot]

A statement that has always bothered me is the statement that we deserve hell. Why do people think this? Why does a person deserve anything bad. Is it sacriligious to say that people deserve to be in Heaven. Heaven is the default end I would think, 'hell' is only a means to that end.

cp

[willieH]

Scripture very much does talk about hell in the OT. One verse that comes to mind (and this is off the top of my head so it may be a bit paraphrased)is Daniel where he says God will raise, "some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting contempt" (Dan 12:2).

Daniel 12:2 is the one and only verse in the OT that can be used to support ET, "hell" (sheol) in the OT is the abode of all the dead, the KJV translates sheol both with "hell" and "grave", each about 30 times.

The question is, what is everlasting contempt? It's said that the serial killer Jeffery Dahmer was saved before he was killed in prison. But how long will it be before any (American at least) names there kid Jeffrey Dahmer?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Dahmer
Could one say then that figuratively speaking, the name of Jeffrey Dahmer will be held in everlasting contempt? As in nobody will EVER name their kid Jeffrey Dahmer. How many Jewish kids have been named Ahab or Jezebel?

Concerning Jefferey Dahmer... Let him/her without sin, cast the first stone...  :dontknow:

It is against the deeds of Jefferey Dahmer that CONTEMPT is seen to be everlasting... The man himself, is a Son of the Most High... which did his part within the Revelation of  the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL ...both of which are found written, and embedded forever, IN the WORDS of GOD... which shall NEVER pass away...

Btw... a few of those WORDS are "Ahab & Jezebel"...  :cloud9:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[Syndicated]

A statement that has always bothered me is the statement that we deserve hell. Why do people think this? Why does a person deserve anything bad. Is it sacriligious to say that people deserve to be in Heaven. Heaven is the default end I would think, 'hell' is only a means to that end.

cp

IMO -  I believe that the churches today use the statement that we deserve hell as something of a scare tactic.  I can only speak from my own personal experiences, but even my grandparents have told me that I need Jesus to save me from an eternal burning hell.  If I don't 'give my life over to Him' then that's where I will spend forever, being tormented and burned.

I am starting to believe that hell is what we struggle with here on earth, living in our sins, living with the choices we make day to day.  We are all living with sin in our imperfect bodies.

I would say that no one deserves anything different be it good or bad, as there is not one person in this world that doesn't have as much value as the next person in His eyes... even Jeffrey Dahmer.  Everyone is His PERFECT creation.  I believe that God wants ALL of his creation to be with Him in eternity, and if it's what He wants, who's to argue that?

[Chris]

I am starting to believe that hell is what we struggle with here on earth, living in our sins, living with the choices we make day to day.  We are all living with sin in our imperfect bodies.

:thumbsup:

Luk 12:49  I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Remember that we are "earthen vessels", right? And "now" is the judgment of this world, right?

So when do THE INHABITANTS of this world LEARN righteousness?

Isa 26:9-10  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

We are tried/judged "by fire" are we not?   :omg:

John 8:23  And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Pro 15:24  The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

:2thumbs:

[claypot]

I am starting to believe that hell is what we struggle with here on earth, living in our sins, living with the choices we make day to day.  We are all living with sin in our imperfect bodies.

:thumbsup:

Luk 12:49  I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Remember that we are "earthen vessels", right? And "now" is the judgment of this world, right?

So when do THE INHABITANTS of this world LEARN righteousness?

Isa 26:9-10  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

We are tried/judged "by fire" are we not?   :omg:

John 8:23  And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Pro 15:24  The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

:2thumbs:

That's some good stuff, Chris. Talk about fitting the pieces of the puzzle together!

cp

[claypot]

From the perspective of a sin stained mind, 'hell' is an 'eternal' thing. From the perspective of a mind in line with Jesus Christ, 'hell', as is commonly preached today, doesn't exist unless you consider punishment from a loving Being, 'hell' which it is but a necessary 'hell' and a 'hell' that is in the bowels of love.

cp

[sheila]

   Great Post, Chris!!!


         :thumbsup:

[bobf]

I am starting to believe that hell is what we struggle with here on earth, living in our sins, living with the choices we make day to day.  We are all living with sin in our imperfect bodies.

:thumbsup:

Luk 12:49  I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Remember that we are "earthen vessels", right? And "now" is the judgment of this world, right?

So when do THE INHABITANTS of this world LEARN righteousness?

Isa 26:9-10  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

We are tried/judged "by fire" are we not?   :omg:

John 8:23  And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Pro 15:24  The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

:2thumbs:

:thumbsup:  Cool Chris!  I've never seen that Proverbs verse.

[WhiteWings]

Jesus talked a lot about planting and harvesting.
Obviously we are that harvest.
A farmer harvest only 5% of his fields as ETs seem to teach.
The question is does a farmer harvest 100% or are there some overlooked plants?
God being perfect at anything including farming will harvest the full 100%.
Or not......?

Leviticus 19:9  And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.

Leviticus 23:22  And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.

So it seems the harvest is never the full 100%. Not even after the poor and the stranger did some additional 'harvesting' because in Sabbath years the fields did also grow.
That would mean the harvesting is never finsihed....
:dontknow: