Question about Judgment

[rs1203]

Hello everyone.  I am new to the whole universal salvation idea, not that I have never been fond of it, but never really thinking about what I said I believed.  I can't say that I am at this time a universalist, but I so desire for it to be true.  To make a long story short, I believe that this is something that deserves serious testing and prodding (at least of my own) before I can say that I believe it entirely.  Anyways...

The point of getting on here and rambling is because I can't sleep and am looking for answers.  I started reading George MacDonald in the past month and one of the things he said (somewhere) has been stuck in my mind like corn in one's teeth.  He, in essence, questioned the whole idea of the "atonement" of Jesus because it didn't make sense to him.  And his argument, to me, is pretty valid.  So here is the question: how could an infinitely just God be satisfied with punishing sin when the one receiving the punishment is innocent?  First off, (now these are George MacDonald's arguments that I can't answer myself) no decent, or what we would think is a decent, human judge would be satisfied with a criminal getting off while an innocent man getting a life sentence in his place.  So if God is incredibly more just, loving, merciful...(don't want to name all of his character traits right now) how can he be worse than a decent human being by being satisfied or appeased by the punishment of an innocent for the guilty to remove sin?  But the problem lies in the verses of scripture that say that Jesus "died for our sins", "died for the sins of the world", "who bore our transgressions...received our punishment".  How can one reconcile those two?  It seems to me that one is a matter of heart and the other head.  The heart longs to believe God is like a father more than a judge, that justice is not served when innocent are punished for those who've done wrong, where the punishment DOES fit the crime (not an eternity in hell for lying or stealing) and those verses that point to Jesus "dying for, or maybe we could insert 'because of', our sins".

Any clarification on this point would be excellent.  Thanks.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

No reply at this time , but thank you for your thoughts. Lee

[sheila]

atonement   at-one-ment...= at one mind

   in actuality atonement is Father sending His son to bring

mankind into alignment with HIS THOUGHTS.

   animal sacrifices were offered due to men lacking understanding..or mind of a beast..resulting in infractions.

   the animal natures sacrificed were Lamb,sheep,goats etc

   these are teaching tools....a gentle non-violent beast was

offered..even with lack of understanding.

  Our Father desires 'children of understanding/Light.Wisdom

  an obediant son, in the Father's image, expressing the mind of the Father

  Isaaih 55;8  For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways,my ways.  As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than yours and my thoughts than your thoughts.. John 8;23  you are from below, I am from above.

  Just as the temple arrangement was a teaching tool,so,too, the sacrificial arrangement is to be a teaching tool.

  The High preist offered a lamb without blemish[gentle

harmless nature of mankind[you people are the sheep.and I am

God]...the scapegoat had all sins confessed onto it by the High

preist and wandered in the wilderness,never to enter the Holy

city again.[outside the camp]man without understanding is as a

beast

This signifies Father's offering of His son to remove

rebellion and lack of understanding from the people, through

the gospel preached by Jesus Christ. This elevated man's

thought's to better alignment with God's. Mercy as a quality of

God was evidenced. The ignorance of many men is what led to

His crucifixtion[if they had known they would not have crucified

the Lord of Glory]

   The ending of the old arrangement leads to a new

arrangement, that is able to bring into PERFECT

UNDERSTANDING AND ALIGNMENT WITH GOD'S NATURE..even

man in the image of God. And a Perfect Son in the image of God

was offered to bring this about.

                   Sheila

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hello everyone.  I am new to the whole universal salvation idea, not that I have never been fond of it, but never really thinking about what I said I believed.  I can't say that I am at this time a universalist, but I so desire for it to be true.  To make a long story short, I believe that this is something that deserves serious testing and prodding (at least of my own) before I can say that I believe it entirely.  Anyways...

The point of getting on here and rambling is because I can't sleep and am looking for answers.  I started reading George MacDonald in the past month and one of the things he said (somewhere) has been stuck in my mind like corn in one's teeth.  He, in essence, questioned the whole idea of the "atonement" of Jesus because it didn't make sense to him.  And his argument, to me, is pretty valid.  So here is the question: how could an infinitely just God be satisfied with punishing sin when the one receiving the punishment is innocent?  First off, (now these are George MacDonald's arguments that I can't answer myself) no decent, or what we would think is a decent, human judge would be satisfied with a criminal getting off while an innocent man getting a life sentence in his place.  So if God is incredibly more just, loving, merciful...(don't want to name all of his character traits right now) how can he be worse than a decent human being by being satisfied or appeased by the punishment of an innocent for the guilty to remove sin?  But the problem lies in the verses of scripture that say that Jesus "died for our sins", "died for the sins of the world", "who bore our transgressions...received our punishment".  How can one reconcile those two?  It seems to me that one is a matter of heart and the other head.  The heart longs to believe God is like a father more than a judge, that justice is not served when innocent are punished for those who've done wrong, where the punishment DOES fit the crime (not an eternity in hell for lying or stealing) and those verses that point to Jesus "dying for, or maybe we could insert 'because of', our sins".

Any clarification on this point would be excellent.  Thanks.

I'll offer a perspective that I am growing to believe.   The natural human perspective takes what we read in the translated scriptures and perceives it more negative than positive.

The problem isn't necessarily making the case concerning innocence or lack of which seems to happen a lot,  we hear how we are all deserving, there is not one righteous, etc.   While I do not make the case that any one is perfect I think we should see that all human are imperfect and that has nothing to do with guilt or being innocent.

Take a catepillar for instance, what did the catepillar do to have to struggle and suffer in a cocoon?   I doubt the catepillar did anything to deserve it, and in fact a person with all the good intentions in the world may happen to come acrossed this poor struggling  creature and free it and as a result may kill the creature by doing so.

As a thinking being in our perspective, are we in control of the cocoon we are in?  No I do not believe are,  do we however have the freedom to make the struggle from the cocoon a horrible hell or a wonderful paradise?

Yes I believe we do.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Paul, that was so kool. Thanks, it is stamped in my mind for ever.

Although "I" do believe in being Perfect...

or Complete IN Christ here and now, NO more to be added to to make me more perfect or IN Christ. Although learning His ways and progressing in His direction is all a part of being perfect IN Him. And we can make it a Hell or better.

Lee.

[gregoryfl]

Hey Lee, I too am persuaded of the same. I wrote an article on my blog about this very question of judgment. In particular, the judgment seat of Christ. This might address some of your questions rs1203.

http://ronsrestingplace.blogspot.com/2009/12/2-corinthians-510.html

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul, that was so kool. Thanks, it is stamped in my mind for ever.

Although "I" do believe in being Perfect...

or Complete IN Christ here and now, NO more to be added to to make me more perfect or IN Christ. Although learning His ways and progressing in His direction is all a part of being perfect IN Him. And we can make it a Hell or better.

Lee.

Thanks Lee,   I do not object to the idea of perfection in the here and now completely,  but I have to question whether that is a spiritual possibility or a physical possibility.

However one views death on this earth, seems even Jesus did not avoid the physical death of his body.  Could you elaborate on perfection  in the "here and now"?

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Strickly Spiritual ,

I am Complete (Perfect) IN Christ.
Christ has more to add to me but "I" have no more to add to me.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Strickly Spiritual ,

I am Complete (Perfect) IN Christ.
Christ has more to add to me but "I" have no more to add to me.

That is interesting, I will think upon it.

[gregoryfl]

Strickly Spiritual ,

I am Complete (Perfect) IN Christ.
Christ has more to add to me but "I" have no more to add to me.

That is interesting, I will think upon it.

I have a different take on it. I understand it, not as the building of, say, a car, but of the growing of a plant.

With a car, you truly do have to add to the car to make it one in the end. Until then, each piece by itself is not a car. That is not what I see who we are in Christ.

We are like a plant. Look at a plant seed. Do you see the leaves, the trunk, the branches, the roots, the fruit? No. But they are there, in the seed. You just can't see those yet. As the tree grows, it doesn't get those things added to it, but rather, those things already in the dna of the plant get revealed, manifested. That is how it is with us. We are truly as Jesus Christ is, and we see glimpses of it in the here and now, but when fully grown, we will see him as he truly is, and, in seeing him, we will see ourselves as we have always been, only at that time, fully manifested in all the glory of Christ.

Ron

[WhiteWings]

Strickly Spiritual ,

I am Complete (Perfect) IN Christ.
Christ has more to add to me but "I" have no more to add to me.

I'm not sure I agree Lee. But that depents on what exactly you mean.
Why is Jesus adding to you? To improve you? It's impossibly to improve perfection.

But things can be perfect for a certain goal while totally wrong for another.
For an army general killing the enemy is perfection. For a medical doctor pefection is saving all lives.

So, LD2, I don't understand you :dontknow:

[HartleyDamboiseII]

because your possiblily still thinking that the word perfect has something to do with what is in Webster's and not bible thinking.

try again, I am perfect IN God's Anointed Son, I am Complete IN God's Anointed Son, This to me means that I am all that Christ is when the Father looks at me because He sees His Son, although I may still be processing the Carnal shell which I still stand in to a point of seeing that things in this shell are not in a state of it's finial state of Being, "or Not All IN ALL yet. The finial state is when all things are in that same body and aware that they are in that same body, and in that state, a complete (Webster's ) understanding changes everything.

Hope I am not rambling cause I have a hard time to explain how I think.

[Molly]

 1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3And this will we do, if God permit.

---Heb 6



Hebrews 7:19
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.



"perfect"

G5048
τελειόω
teleioō
tel-i-o'-o
From G5046; to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.


The way I read this is that we are not complete--that is to say, we are unfinished [as something that is made]--without a relationship with our Creator.    Jesus has made this relationship possible for all men.  And just the fact of this relationship makes us complete, finished--perfect.

[WhiteWings]

The way I read this is that we are not complete--that is to say, we are unfinished [as something that is made]--without a relationship with our Creator.    Jesus has made this relationship possible for all men.  And just the fact of this relationship makes us complete, finished--perfect.

But Lee also wrote:

Christ has more to add to me but "I" have no more to add to me.

Assuming Jesus only does things that improve things = bring closer to perfection; it also means Lee is not perfect yet. Otherwise Jesus stopped adding.
But, Lee, if you mean that being in Christ is the most perfect thing you can do then I understand.
Then we have 2 perfections?
1-Lee being in Christ
2-When Jesus is finished adding to Lee.

[gregoryfl]

Not sure if my earlier post was read, but the life of a believer is growth, not an assembly line. We are not put together, what is already complete and perfect in us is revealed over time. Hope that makes sense.

Ron

[onlytruth]

Hi Ron
Jesus death was the result of obedience.Jesus walked completely at his Fathers voice ,this was for us to understand the dieing to self that must occur."Jesus was obedient even unto death"
God wanted to show through this all, that ressurection would occur, and that the grave had no more sting
Now we are able to live fully...as we were originally designed for
blessings :icon_king:   

[gregoryfl]

Hi Ron
Jesus death was the result of obedience.Jesus walked completely at his Fathers voice ,this was for us to understand the dieing to self that must occur."Jesus was obedient even unto death"
God wanted to show through this all, that ressurection would occur, and that the grave had no more sting
Now we are able to live fully...as we were originally designed for
blessings :icon_king:  

I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said here, with the exception of dying to self, as I believe that took place on the cross with Christ. Just trying to understand, were you saying all this because you do not agree that the life of a believer is growth, a revealing over time of what is already complete? Or were you just adding your own thoughts to what I shared?

Thanks,

Ron

[Molly]

Assuming Jesus only does things that improve things = bring closer to perfection; it also means Lee is not perfect yet. Otherwise Jesus stopped adding.
But, Lee, if you mean that being in Christ is the most perfect thing you can do then I understand.
Then we have 2 perfections?
1-Lee being in Christ
2-When Jesus is finished adding to Lee.

That word, 'perfect,' is talking about something that is complete, and, in that sense, finished.

In other words, perfection is a function of relationship with God.  If you have it, you are perfect by definition.


This is a relationship with an infinite being, so how that may change us over time [or reveal us if you prefer, or both] is infinite.  But the state of being in relationship, at any point in time, is perfection.


Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.



In the Hebrew--

"perfect"

H8549
תּמים
tâmîym
taw-meem'
From H8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth: - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.

[onlytruth]

Yes,where you are right now is the perfect place,as things are revealed to us we move forward,sometimes this takes longer than it should because our flesh still has a hold.
Jesus is the "way" we must follow in order to obtain life and see the Father
blessings :icon_king:

[rs1203]

I appreciate all of the comments, but I think I must have been a little confusing when I was writing it.  My question was about how God could be considered just when an innocent is punished and guilty are set free.  But as much as that is hard to understand, what do we do with the verses that say "Christ died for our sins" or that he was pierced for our transgressions? 

I appreciate all of the different thoughts that were shared and hope to hear more thoughts. 

[jabcat]

I've seen people try to explain most if not all of Jesus' sacrificial death away.

I do like to understand things, and I think God reveals bits and pieces to us as suits His purposes.  So I am NOT endorsing "ignorance".  HOWEVER, I also believe sometimes when there's something that doesn't fit our finite understanding - some things God may have yet to reveal to us, something I can't wrap my carnal mind around - then at some point I believe it behoves me to...have faith, believe, accept;  that He is God, His ways are higher than my ways, His thoughts are not my thoughts.  And if His written Word says it, then I need to accept it, trust He knows best because He's God and I'm not, humble myself before it and Him, and realize He has a perfect reason for all He does, and He will, when it's all said and done, bring everything to reconciliation and perfection.

So I believe we need to seek, study, pray for understanding, but in the end, trust and believe that God knows what He's doing (and why) and ask Him to change me by His Spirit and Word, rather than me changing it to fit my own understanding.  I don't fully understand it, but what I do believe I see, is that the scriptures clearly teach the atonement, Jesus' perfect sacrifice, that we are purchased by His blood, etc.

With all that said, maybe someone has some really good insights into this that will be helpful.  (Cardinal, for one, has a really good grasp of the Jewish/Law sacrifical system, how those things foreshadowed Christ for us, etc.  She will hopefully be back on the boards this week).   What I'm saying may just be a useful thing to keep as a sort of default setting as we seek  :thumbsup:.  My  :2c:.

[rs1203]

Thanks for the reminder.  I've spent a lot of time reading up on universal reconciliation and the justice of God in the past two months.  Somewhere along the way, I guess I forgot some of the important things.  Thanks for your words of reminder and encouragement.   :bigGrin:

[jabcat]

I was in editing some things in my post, and just saw your post.  Oh good, you're not offended.  Thank you and you're welcome.  I speak from experience dear brother.  I've had to find myself broken before God, giving up what my mind wants to believe and where my beliefs want to go - and it was contrary to some of those "important things"/basics to which you allude.  Seek His face, He will change us from the inside out.  Wishing you well, James.

[jabcat]

Again, I believe we are to seek, to dig, and that He will reveal pieces to us as suits His PLAN...

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.  Pro. 25:2

However, a couple of "bottom lines" I suggest for consideration;

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"  Romans 11:33

In Matthew, He also indicated it was given to some to understand the things of the kingdom, to some it had not been given [I'd suggest "yet"].  He also said the Spirit would lead us into all truth, while Paul talked of seeing through a glass darkly.  So I believe that's more evidence that we do learn and are shown, but I believe it must be progressive rather than necessarily all at once.  In the meantime;  trust and believe -  

as were are "looking unto Jesus, the Author [beginner/INVENTOR/CREATOR] and Finisher [COMPLETER/PERFECTOR] of our faith (Heb. 12:2).    In all our confusion and weakness, He is strong, and His grace is sufficient (2 Cor. 12:9) - "my grace if sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness".  

"Looking unto Him...."

[CHB]

Hi rs1203,

You ask, why would a loving God punish an innocent man {Jesus} to pay for our, {the guilty partys} sins?

In this world we have two things that we learn from, good and evil. We have good and evil cause without either one we couldn't understand the other one. God in his wisdom took good {Jesus} and turned it into evil {crucifixion}, then he took evil and turned it into good {resurrection}.  Only God can do this. You see, in the end all is good. There is a negative aspecct of God's grace and there is a positive aspect of God's grace. 

The good works that Christ did while he was human should.. according to our way of thinking earned him the best possible award any human could get. But instead Christ got the worst punishment that ever could be experienced by man. God dismissed all of the works that Jesus did. He did it to rescue all of us. God does not consider works at all in his plan of grace.

Lets say you are standing in front of God at the resurrection and Satan has a long list of the bad things you have done but God looks at you and says, "you are in Christ and I declare that you are holy and righteous as Christ is". You just went from polluted to righteous in the twinkling of an eye. That action of grace is not a reward to you for doing good or bad. No works at all are involved in God judging you to be perfect as Christ is.  This is what Christ's death accomplished.  There are no works in the positive or negative side of grace. So, just as God forgot all about Christ's good works, he forgets all about our bad works. By God's grace all of Christ's good works brought him punishment and death on our behalf, but by God's positive grace all our bad works brings us glory and life in the Family of God. Christ had all the sins of the world on himself and what did God do? He took this most vile person, the greatest sinner on earth,... because of our sins... and resurrected him and gave him a name above all names. God and Christ did all of this to show how much they love us. Another thing is, we learn to forgive even God.

CHB