What does torcher mean in the Greek?

[friendofmankind]

Matt 18:34  "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

What does torcher mean here in the Greek?

[friendofmankind]

Its ok i found it, 'TYRANNO'.  Brilliant, ok sorry guys, speak soon  :HeartThrob:

[gregoryfl]

It means torturer, or tormentor. Back then the jailer did not simply keep criminals in prison, but the prisoners were forced to do hard labor, and subject to whippings and beatings.

Jesus knew that man could not forgive man as he demanded, but he was speaking as under the law, showing just what God demanded of them. This was meant to drive them to the end of themselves, with no hope except the mercy of God, who would give them such mercy by his Son Christ.

Mankind deserved such a harsh sentence, but this was spoken before the cross, when such demands would rightly be made. What God demanded, he did in his Son, and we receive mercy instead. This is why you see a difference between Jesus statements that God will forgive only as man forgives his debtors, spoken before the cross, and what was revealed afterward, the we are to forgive as God HAS freely forgiven us. See the reversal?

Ron

[reFORMer]

AV, or KJV has, "tormenters," which refers to something more "mental" than "torturers" which is more physical.  Concordant Literal also has "tomenters."  Young's Literal has "Inquisitors."

Matthew 18:33-35 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
33 Was it not binding on you also to be merciful to your fellow slave, as I also am merciful to you?'
34 And, being indignant, his lord gives him up to the tormentors till he may pay all he is owing him.
35 "Thus shall My heavenly Father also be doing to you, if each one should not be pardoning his brother, from your hearts."

The parable Jesus told had this servant experiencing the grace of his lord before he mistreated his fellow servant, showing no mercy when he had been shown much greater mercy.  It should also be noticed that there was no intervening death in the story.

Neither is the debt infinite, like "never-ending," as "the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth" tradition would have it. (Gen 8:21)  He must simply repay what is owed.  This is something not brought up by people who are blinded by the doctrines of men.  If I steal an apple God does not require infinite never ending repayment of apples.  That would not be justice.  To put the entirety of a man's life here in the flesh on one side of the scale and infinity on the other there would be no balance.  Even all of finite mankind's sins on one side would not be balanced with infinity on the other.  This is in fact what happened with Jesus who paid the penalty which is death.  He was dead for three days.  This illustrates how wrong it is to think that man without the substitute should pay ceaselessly for ever.

God states clearly what just recompense is in His written word.  To overthrow it and replace it with infinitudes is error very dark indeed.  To dismiss the description of Divine values with a misunderstood word, "legalism," may not be as dark but may prove just as deadly.  God provided a knowledge of right judgments for thieves.  They're to repay double (Ex 22:4) unless what was stolen can't be returned.  Then it's a fourfold repayment (Ex 22:1.)  If a man's means to make a living, the tools of his trade are stolen, like an ox, it is a fivefold restitution.  That is God's sanctions for thieves.  In Numbers 5:6-8 for any sin, it is the principle plus a 5th that is payed to the one wronged besides the ram of atonement.  What is seemingly never considered is, if you commit a sin and pay for it, then that's the end of it.  The popular teaching is any sin is unrepayable and infinite is ignorant of not only justice, but mercy as well.

[friendofmankind]

Hey thank you both, this has been really really helpful to me, and also to someone i have been debating with a little.

Thanks so much  :HeartThrob:

[martincisneros]

Matt 18:34  "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

What does torcher mean here in the Greek?

It means what it means, that God will go ahead and scramble your huevos, but after He's made you a gelded horse, He'll make you as His tribe of Judah in Revelation 19:

3 " My anger is kindled against the shepherds,
      And I will punish the goatherds.
      For the LORD of hosts will visit His flock,
      The house of Judah,
      And will make them as His royal horse in the battle. (Zechariah 10:3)

Through which He'll bring forth unparalleled wealth into the Body of Christ:

14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
      And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
      Shall be gathered together:
      Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance. (Zechariah 14:14)

Through which one will gladly take care of the poor, the orphans, the prisoners, and everyone else that Matthew 25 says is how you visit the King:

16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. (Zechariah 14:16-19)

Since the sheep and goats judgment is an annual judgment, and if you took care of the King, then you'll have the rain and the reign He's promised, otherwise, He'll give you to the fire of the Adversary and his messengers which in the Old Testament was always drought.  All of the nations are gathered to Him, in the way that He said that they are in Matthew 25: take care of the least of these, My brethren -- then you did good by Me.  Otherwise "unquenchable thirst"  -- "'til you've repaid the uttermost farthing."  To whom?  To Him?  Yes, but He tells you how to pay Him back!!  Take care of the poor, the sick, the imprisoned, widows, orphans, and everybody else He says is taking care of Him!!

And this winds up being a whole subject to itself, but marriage comes before ministry 'cause of what I've just said and 'cause it's one of the 7fold gifts that He gave when He ascended high above all the heavens in Ephesians chapters 4 to 6: Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, Marriages, Kids -- each of which corresponds to the 7 days of Creation and the 7 spirits of God in Revelation and Isaiah 11.  Not sure why people have always insisted upon a 5fold ministry from Ephesians 4 as though the chapter stopped mentioning gifts given when He ascended, but He regave marriage and kids as sanctified sacraments (for want of a better word 'cause "elements" means something else entirely to some folks around here) of the faith and as being on par with anything Church related 'cause 1Corinthians 7 talks about kids being holy because of marriage in Christ that's sanctified by one or both spouses being believers.

Most Christians don't spend enough time confessing before Him that their kids are HOLY and thanking Him for that covenantal "accounting."  And though they're a lot of work, yet one finds one's self at one's greatest "day of rest" when a legacy is in the works.  And 'cause of sowing and reaping principles that I don't want to get into that reopen the Word of Faith topic with people that don't yet have His revelation on it, I can't go very deeply into this, but kids that are not where they should be can sometimes mean that one's not taking care of the King in one of the ways He specified that you're to visit Him annually, so there's backlash upon one's own household of the fire prepared for the Adversary and his messengers with drought in one's house, i.e. there's "torture" in the household "'til they repay the uttermost farthing" of what He considered owed to Himself 'cause one didn't get it and didn't treat Him right in some way and it came to a time of accounting and....But thankfully, this means most anything can be turned around in one year under a Covenant of grace once one's spent enough time with Him discovering where the root is to the fruit one is enduring.  I mean, if the words of Zechariah 14 means anything at all about that annual judgment regarding how one treated the King.

I'm not sure that the promise of that book of Zechariah of the iniquity of the land being removed in one day COULDN'T BE applicable to this annual judgment BECAUSE of the fact that this is a covenant of grace, mercy, and peace.  But in proportion to each one's faith, obviously, and at the very least within a year if one didn't draw sufficiently powerfully enough upon the fountain opened for uncleanness in Jerusalem with one's faith by the power of the Spirit that one's received upon one's life by being doers of the Written Word and not hearer's only, deceiving one's self.

[Beloved Servant]

"marriage comes before ministry"

[reFORMer]

How you put marriage and children gives me joy Bro Martin.  Don't apologize for teaching faith and prosperity.  What to some looks like beating a dead horse is really a horse of a different color that will stand up as the Word of God come alive, and there will be a company of Overcomers READY TO RIDE!

[martincisneros]

How you put marriage and children gives me joy Bro Martin.  Don't apologize for teaching faith and prosperity.  What to some looks like beating a dead horse is really a horse of a different color that will stand up as the Word of God come alive, and there will be a company of Overcomers READY TO RIDE!

Zechariah 2 gives one of the strongest statements in the Bible in saying it's one of the ways you know someone's been sent of God.  To me, that implies the opposite consequence as well, that if they don't bring this, then God didn't send them.  And apparently, from Zechariah 2, an exit from Babylon is the equivalent of an exit from Egypt and implies leaving with great substance -- on towards God's purposes of building and building up God's temple and the nations that we're shepherds of according to the riches of His grace.  Obviously, the theme of wealth transference from Zechariah 2 is repeated in James chapter 5 and elsewhere in the New Testament to indicate it's one of the fundamental doctrines of Christ.

7 "Up, Zion! Escape, you who dwell with the daughter of Babylon."
8 For thus says the LORD of hosts: "He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. 9 For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me. (Zechariah 2:7-9)

...Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.  7Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.  8Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. (James 5:3,7-8)

Obviously the coming of the Lord in James 5 isn't either the 70AD judgment nor the premillenial view of Revelation 19, but is this Matthew 25 annual judgment, that we're lead to believe in Zechariah 14 is an annual judgment; His coming, contextually, with all such similar passages of Scripture where judgment and wealth transference are indicated is His coming in the form of prisoners, the poor, the sick, and everybody else that Matthew 25 and other passages of Scripture, including James chapter 1, says not to leave unvisited; widows, orphans, et. al. The precious fruit of the earth is given to us in Galatians 5 in the fruit of the spirit and how is that expressed in 1John? Not just in word, but in deed and in truth.  The precious fruit of the earth is the meeting of all of the needs of mankind.

And obviously, this goes with the New Testament doctrine of adoption that we're adopted into the Abrahamic system in Christ, even as Gentiles.  There's more than one passage of Scripture linking glory and silver and gold, but without being exhaustive on this, here's one that links handily with the above:

6 "For thus says the LORD of hosts: 'Once more (it is a little while) I will shake heaven and earth, the sea and dry land; 7 and I will shake all nations, and they shall come to the Desire of All Nations, and I will fill this temple with glory,' says the LORD of hosts. 8 'The silver is Mine, and the gold is Mine,' says the LORD of hosts. 9 'The glory of this latter temple shall be greater than the former,' says the LORD of hosts. 'And in this place I will give peace,' says the LORD of hosts." (Haggai 2:6-9)

While inclusive of anything else that one would believe to be the glory and the temple, the part about linking the silver and the gold with the last temple, which temple we are, must not be lost in our understanding.  There's a passage in Genesis, either spoken of Abraham or perhaps spoken of Jacob when Laban or his men are talking of Jacob about all of the wealth and riches Jacob has and it calls all of that "glory."  Again, not excluding every other understanding from Scripture about "glory," but this is often a neglected very very clear implication in Scripture on the part of the nay-sayers.  Last two chapters of Revelation shows us this wealth transference, that it's into the ridiculous realms. And it takes billions and trillions of dollars to be able to stack it that many miles high; whether you're talking about a literal city bleeding from another realm into our own or whether you're talking about the people of God simply operating as a city with all of it's implicit commerce and taking care of the needs of others as absolutely everyone prospers in justice, mercy, and faithfulness while not leaving the wealth part undone.

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints (i.e. fellow citizens with the Jewish believers) and members of the household of God (i.e. one household), 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building (i.e. Jew and Gentile), being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. (Ephesians 2:19-22)

The purpose is obviously the discipleship of the nations, the comfort of the afflicted, etc., the fulfillment of every sanctified purpose He's placed on the hearts of believers, the establishment of the godly Psalm 15 and Psalm 112 home, etc., and Zechariah 2:9 [quoted above] plainly says that those who bring this teaching have been sent of God.  Matthew 25, again, from my previous post on this thread, says how you are to treat the King, and Zechariah 14, quoted in my previous post on this thread, makes the difference between the land being given over to scorching heat or the water of His Spirit, including natural water for crops, out to be something that's an annual judgment depending on how you've treated the King.

If it all comes down to how you treat the King annually, or the land will be given over to such drought that there will be dangers of cannibalism as in the Old Testament, or the biting and devouring one another we're forbidden from doing in Galatians and Isaiah 58, then growing up as calves of the stall in Malachi suddenly becomes very very important: prospering even as one's soul prospers in 3John 2; that all would go well with you as you have a prosperous journey of faith, hope, and love, and we're assured by Scripture that faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  And what is the hope of the King in Matthew 25?  That you've met every need of His, in the way that He prescribes meeting every need of His.

Or you will be handed over to the tormenters and won't get out 'til you've repaid the uttermost farthing if you've despised His faith and prosperity doctrines;-)

[sven]

the Greek word is βασανιστης [basanistês]

examiner, questioner, torturer, tormentor; one who tests, examiner

usefull tools:

www.scripture4all.org
www.perseus.org

perseus.org is a very usefull tool, a secular, rather unbiased dictionary unlike theological dictionaries such as Strong's

[friendofmankind]

Sven thanks for the Bible tools links you gave me.

To everyone else, thanks once again, the knowledge in here never ceases to amaze me.

[martincisneros]

How you put marriage and children gives me joy Bro Martin.

Well, while some people may think, based upon their previous experiences with marriage and children that marriage and children is what the New Testament means by torture and torment in the Greek, they're actually two very holy things that Christ regave when He ascended far above all things to fill all things with Himself and with us.  Before one comes to Christ, marriage and kids have no preeminence over the animals, but if a marriage is where it all got screwed up in the beginning with what happened in the Garden, then we've been too shortsighted in our readings of "Adam" in Romans 5 and 1Corinthians 15 and haven't rightly thought "marriage" in those contexts.

As in marriage all formerly died, so also in Christ shall all [marriages] be made alive, but each in His own order with the life we've experienced in times past with Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers that we've dealt with in Church, Christian television, etc., but marriage being the 6th day and the 6th gift He gave to men when He ascended -- that's the primary ministry, 'cause that's His crown in the earth according to the Psalms, Proverbs, and Song of Solomon.  I'm not a fan of full preterism, but can accept Christ's statements about those that don't pursue Him instead of their wives can't be His disciples as having a pre-70AD implication because of how incredibly dangerous the times were, to where even St. Paul echoes the same thing in his letter to the Corinthians that those that have spouses should be as though they didn't.

It wasn't saying to dis the love of your life, but it was talking about in dangerous times, you better be listening to the Spirit of God and having all that you do where those are concerned count as a seed that you're sowing where He's concerned, since children aren't the Lord's only inheritance, but that marriage itself is what Malachi says He gives the Spirit, as though the marriage had become His Tabernacle.  He's only saying in the Gospels to put Him above marriage because if you don't, then you'll do what Adam did in the Garden.  That's all He's saying, rather than saying to lay aside your spouse for Him.  Then He goes on to talk about the hundredfold that one would receive in this life time in terms of their marriage, children, lands, authority, other possessions, and other things you'd receive in this life with persecutions if you counted it all joy and counted it all as a seed towards having more in this life time and seeing all of His purposes accomplished.

There's an area of this that relates to marriage on what someone did that was forgiven such a great debt and then wouldn't forgive, as when people get into marriages they shouldn't have gotten into, but then when He forgives them all of that debt and then He brings them someone else, but they won't leap as eagerly as they did into their own nonsense, then there's a handing over to the tormenters.  We're always handed over to the tormenters when we won't jump into His will, the forgiveness in the parable that I believe is being cited in the opening post on this thread that translates into marriage because the forgiveness that we have in Christ is the undoing of Adam's blunder in the Garden; the blunder many of us have had in our own Gardens that sent us into outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth. :laughing7:

6 days shalt thou work and the 7th day thou shalt rest, meaning that you work on yourself until God opens up the path of marriage to you, and then you're supposed to enter into your 7th day of rest as the 6th day is closing as the day of gladness of your heart, and that 7th day is mentorship where all of the lessons learned in the heat of the previous 6 days are transmitted to future generations, whether they're generations proceeding from physical loins or spiritual loins as the lessons of one's life come into their season as the blessing of fruitfulness and multiplication is something you're supposed to be spreading into all of the earth with naming all of the animals of one's life, naming the plants, and everything else so that whatever you call them via your life lessons that you begin to transmit, then that's what they ARE.

It's only after you have the 6th day, or the marriage, that many begin to discover the serpent trying to come along and ask "Has God said...??"  But rather than biting fruit you're not supposed to bite, which would obviously be a return to work when you're supposed to be entering into His rest, then you're supposed to answer him in the way that Christ Jesus answered him with what's written as you're executing written judgments as it says in Psalm 149 by what you're saying.  The previous 5 days were about learning what is written, so that's why you've got the ministry of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers that bring you to the place where God introduces you to the beauty He's said is yours -- and has been yours all of this time if you'd endure to the evening of the 6th day.  When you endure, morning is coming.

The day begins, the 6th day, with your naming everything in your life, yet appearing to not see something that corresponds to yourself, so depressed like Adam, one goes to bed for a nap and gets up to quite the nude surprise. roflol  People forget that when Adam saw her, he saw all of her. roflol  I personally think it's funny that it'll say that FOR THIS REASON a man will LEAVE father and mother and be united to his wife and the two will become one flesh.  Not sure if I can communicate the humor that's in that verse in the light of this.  The first 5 days dealt with the man's spirit (i.e. Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists = Father, Son, Holy Spirit) and soul (i.e. Pastors and Teachers = one's own internal male and female), and 6th day deals with his flesh, and then cell division in the form of kids [spiritual or otherwise] is forthcoming after that.

The full armor of God in the 6th chapter of Ephesians being the 8th is merely to get you back to the 6th and 7th days where you've got the marriage you're supposed to have.  The full armor of God that many Christians are eager to wear presupposes that all is not well in one's own Eden with one's wife, that there's a serpent on the loose, and that multiplication according to Godly principles isn't taking place.  The torment is the battle to recapture that for which Christ has captured one: forgiveness, yes, but that implies fellowship as well, and a reproduction of the image of God in the earth.

One isn't handed over to the tormenters for any other reason than failing to be the image of God in the earth, i.e. male and female.  Forgiveness is an aspect of the divine nature, and the female aspect of His Person.  As long as you're being conformed more and more to the image of not only Christ but of what Christ came to restore, then you'll either never know a day of torment, or from the place of torment that you've lifted up your eyes begging for a drop of water from those rivers flowing in and out of Eden, you're going to discover what God really meant and intended and you'll start returning to the tree of life that God intended for you, i.e. leaving and cleaving; fruitful and muliplying AND replenishing the earth.