The Church is Israel Now - Dispensational Dementia

[reFORMer]

The Church is Israel Now - Dispensational Dementia

by Charles D. Provan

During this century, Christians have been told over and over that "God has an unconditional love for Old Testament Israel," by which is meant that God's love is directed toward persons racially descended from Abraham, regardless of faith or obedience. Membership in Israel, therefore, is viewed as a matter of race, not faith.

"The Church is Israel Now" demonstrates that the Holy Bible totally repudiates this racialist viewpoint. Being a member of Israel in the Old Testament was dependent upon faith and obedience to God. When the Israelites obeyed God, God loved them. But when the Israelites turned from Him, He hated them, stripping them of their Israelite status. After centuries of Israelite rebellion against God, culminating in their rejection of Jesus the Messiah, the titles, attributes and blessings of Israel were transferred to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and to no one else, regardless of Abrahamic descent. The Church is Israel Now.

Jesus said to the chief priests and elders of the Jewish people: "I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it" (Matthew 21:43).

Jesus said to His disciples: "Fear not, little flock, for it is the Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom" (Luke 12:32).

Old Testament Titles and Attributes of Natural Israel,
which in the New Testament refer to the Christian Church

THE BELOVED OF GOD

A) Israel is Beloved of God:
- "You in Your mercy have led forth the people whom You have redeemed: You have guided them in Your strength to Your holy habitation" (Exodus 15:13; Deuteronomy 33:3; Ezra 3:11).

B) Disobedient Israel is not Beloved of God:
- "My heritage is to Me like a lion in the forest; it cries out against Me: therefore have I hated it" (Jeremiah 12:8; Jeremiah 16:5; Hosea 9:15).

C) Christians are Beloved of God:
- "Behold, what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world knows us not, because it does not know Him" (I John 3:1).

- "As God also said in Hosea, I will call Gentiles My people, who were not My people; and her who was not beloved, I will call My beloved, and in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there they will be called Sons of the living God" (Romans 9:25-96).

- "Therefore be imitators of God, as His beloved children" (Ephesians 5:1).

- "As God's chosen ones, set apart and beloved, clothe yourselves with tenderness of heart, kindliness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering" (Colossians 3:12).


THE CHILDREN OF GOD

A) Israel are the Children of God:
- "You shall say to Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is My son, My firstborn" (Exodus 4:22; Deuteronomy 14:1; Isaiah 63:8).

B) Disobedient Israel are not the Children of God:
- "They have corrupted themselves; they are not His children, because of their blemish: a perverse and crooked generation." (Deuteronomy 32:5; Isaiah 1:1-2; John 8:39,42,44).

C) Christians are the Children of God:
- "As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe on His name" (John 1:12).

- "Caiaphas prophesied that Jesus' death was not for Israel only but for all the children of God scattered around the world" (John 11:52; Acts 2:39; Genesis 9:27).

- "For as many as are led by God's Spirit are the sons of God. . . This Spirit bears witness with our spirits that we are God's children" (Romans 8:14,16; II Corinthians 6:18).

- "We are all children of God through faith in Jesus Christ" (Galatians 3:26; 4:5,6,7; Philippians 2:15; I John 3:1).


THE FIELD OF GOD

A) Israel is the Field of God:
- "Many pastors have ruined My vineyard, they have trodden down My field; they have made My pleasant field a desolate wilderness" (Jeremiah 12:10).

B) Christians are the Field of God:
- "We are God's fellow-workers; you are God's field, God's building" (I Corinthians 3:9).


THE FLOCK OF GOD AND OF MESSIAH

A) Israel is the Flock of God and of Messiah:
- "Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, You who leads Joseph like a flock; You who dwells between the cherubim, shine forth" (Psalm 78:52; Isaiah 40:11; Zechariah 10:3).

B) Christians are the Flock of God and of Messiah:
- " I am the good shepherd, and know My own sheep, and they know Me. . . And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold: I must bring them also, and they will heed My Voice. So there shall be one flock with one Shepherd" (John 10:14,16; Hebrews 13:20; I Peter 2:25; 5:2,3).


THE HOUSE OF GOD

A) Israel is the House of God:
- "My servant Moses is faithful in all My house" (Numbers 12:7).

B) Christians are the House of God:
- "If I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (I Timothy 3:15).

- "Jesus Messiah was faithful to God who appointed Him, just as Moses was over the household of God . . . And Moses truly was faithful in God's house, but he was only a servant, and his work was mostly to illustrate and type those things that would take place afterward. But Christ, God's Son, is in complete charge over God's house. And we Christians are God's house - for He lives in us - if we firmly maintain the confidence and pride in our hope" (Hebrews 3:2,5-6; 10:21).

- "The time has come for judgment, and it must begin first at the God's household, and if even we who are Christians must be judged, what terrible fate awaits those who do not obey the Gospel of God?" (I Peter 4:17).


THE KINGDOM OF GOD

God's Covenant with Israel at mount Sinai was conditional upon obedience as servants.

A) Obedient Israel is the Kingdom of God:
- "If you will obey Me, and keep My covenant, then you will be above all nations My personal possession; for the whole earth is Mine: and you shall be a kingdom of priests to God, a holy nation" (Exodus 19:5-6; I Chronicles 17:14; 28:5).

B) Disobedient Israel is not the Kingdom of God:
- "God will cast Israel away, because they did not hearken to Him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations" (Hosea 9:17; Jeremiah 7:15; 15:1; Matthew 8:11-12; 21:43).

God's Covenant with Abraham's Seed is unconditional as Sons.

C) Christians are the Kingdom of God:

- "The kingdom of God is . . . righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost" (Romans 14:17; I Corinthians 4:20). - "God has delivered us from the dominion of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of His beloved Son" (Colossians 1:13; 4:11).

- "He has made us a kingdom, priests to His God and Father; to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever" (Revelation 1:6).


THE PEOPLE OF GOD

A) Israelites are the People of God:
- "I will take you for My people, and I will be your God: and you shall know that I am the Lord your God, who has brought you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians" (Exodus 6:7: Deuteronomy 27:9).

B) Disobedient Israelites are not the People of God:
- "God said, Call him Lo-ammi (meaning 'not mine'), for Israel is not My people and I am not her God" (Hosea 1:9; Jeremiah 5:10).

C) Christians are the People of God:
- "As God also said in Hosea, I will call Gentiles My people, who were not My people; and her who was not beloved, I will call My beloved, and in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there they will be called Sons of the living God" (Romans 9:25-26).

- "What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God has said of us, I will dwell in them, and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people" (II Corinthians 6:16, Ephesians 4:12; 5:3; II Thessalonians 1:10).

- "Our Saviour Jesus Christ gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and to purify for Himself a people all His own who are zealous to do good works" (Titus 2:14).


THE PRIESTS OF GOD

A) Obedient Israel are Priests of God:
- "If you will obey Me, and keep My covenant, then you will be above all nations My personal possession; for the whole earth is Mine: and you shall be a kingdom of priests to God, a holy nation" (Exodus 19:5-6).

B) Disobedient Israel are not Priests of God:
- "The Levites who abandoned Me when Israel went astray - who strayed after their idols - they bear their punishment. . . They shall not come near to serve Me as priests or to touch any of My sacred things in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame because of the abominations which they have committed" (Ezekiel 44:10,13; I Samuel 2:28,30; Hosea 4:6).

C) Christians are Priests of God:

- "Like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. . . you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people; that you may show others the praises of God who has called you out of darkness into His marvellous Light" (I Peter 2:5,9).

- "Jesus Christ has made us kings and priests unto God and His Father; to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen" (Revelation 1:6).

- "Jesus Christ has made us a kingdom, and priests to our God and we shall reign over the earth" (Revelation 5:10).


THE VINEYARD OF GOD

A) Israel is the Vineyard of God:
- "And now, residents of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, please judge between Me and My vineyard. . . What more was there to do for My vineyard, that I did not do in it? When I looked for it to produce grapes, why did it yield wild grapes? Now let Me tell you what I am going to do to My vineyard: I will remove its hedge, and it shall be devoured; I will break down its wall, and it shall be trodden down. . . For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah His cherished planting: and He looked for justice, but beheld bloodshed! For righteousness, but cries of deep oppression met His ears" (Isaiah 5:3-5,7; Jeremiah 12:10).

B) Christians are the Vineyard of God:
- "What do you suppose the Owner will do? He will come and kill these husbandmen, and rest the vineyard to others. . ." (Luke 20:16).


THE WIFE (OR BRIDE) OF GOD

A) Israel was the Wife (or Bride) of God:
- "For your Maker is your Husband; the Lord of hosts is His Name; He is your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, the God of the whole earth. For the Lord has called you back from your grief - as a young woman refused and abandoned by her husband" (Isaiah 54:5-6; Jeremiah 2:2; Ezekiel 16:32; Hosea 1:2).

B) Disobedient Israel is not the Wife (or Bride) of God:
- "Judah saw that for all the adulteries faithless Israel had done, I had sent her away and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, she went and played the harlot also" (Jeremiah 3:8; Hosea 2:2).

C) Christians are the Wife (or Bride) of God:
- "I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to Christ, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to her one husband" (II Corinthians 11:2).

- "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and be joined to his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church"   (Ephesians 5:31-32).


THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM

A) Israelites are the Children of Abraham:
- "Aren't You our God, who drove out the inhabitants of this Land before Your people Israel, and gave it to the seed of Abraham Your friend for ever?" (II Chronicles 20:7; Psalm 105:6; Isaiah 41:8).

B) Disobedient Israelites are not the Children of Abraham:
- "The Pharisees answered Jesus and said, Abraham is our father. Jesus replied, If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham" (John 8:39; Romans 9:6-7; Galatians 4:25,30).

C) Christians are the Children of Abraham:
- "Abraham received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was yet uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all uncircumcised believers, that also to them righteousness might be accounted . . . This is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all of his seed - not only to the adherents of the Law but also top those who share the faith of Abraham; who is thus father of us all" (Romans 4:11,16).

- "You know therefore that the real children of Abraham are those who are of the faith. . . And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Galatians 3:7,29).

- "Abraham had two sons; he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh; but the son of the freewoman through promise. . . Now we, brethren, as Isaac, are children of the promise. . . So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free" (Galatians 4:22-23,28,31).


(continued...)

[reFORMer]

(continued:)


THE CHOSEN PEOPLE

A) Israelites are the Chosen People:
- "The Lord did not set His love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the least of all people" (Deuteronomy 7:7; 10:15; 14:2; Isaiah 43:20-21).

B) Disobedient Israelites are not the Chosen People:
- "God . . . was wroth, and greatly abhorred Israel" (Psalm 78:59; Deuteronomy 31:17; II Kings 17:20).

C) Christians are the Chosen People:
- "You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, God's own people; so that you may declare the perfections of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvellous Light. Once you were no people but now you are the people of God: who once experienced no mercy, but now you have received mercy" (I Peter 2:9-10).

- "Put on therefore, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering . . ." (Colossians 3:12).

- "Chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ, and to be sprinkled with His blood: Grace to you, and peace, in increasing measure" (I Peter 1:2).


THE CIRCUMCISED

A) Israelites are the Circumcised:
- "This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your seed after you; Every man child among you shall be circumcised" (Genesis 17:10; Judges 15:18).

B) Disobedient Israelites are not the Circumcised:
- "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will punish all those who are circumcised in body but not in spirit. Egypt, Judah, Edom, and the children of Ammon, Moab, and all who dwell in the desert, that cut the corners of their hair, for all these nations are circumcised, and unless all the house of Israel circumcise their hearts by loving Me to the exclusion of the world, your fleshly circumcision is a heathen rite like theirs" (Jeremiah 9:25-26; Romans 2:25,28; Philippians 3:2).

C) Christians are the Circumcised:
- "He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, a spiritual observance rather than a mere literal observation of the Law. His praise comes not from men but from God" (Romans 2:29).

- "For we are the true circumcision, who worship God in spirit, and glory in what Christ Jesus has done for us, and put no confidence in the flesh, for we cannot save ourselves" (Philippians 3:3).

- "In Christ you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in stripping the worldly nature and past sins of the old man from off your soul" (Colossians 2:11).


ISRAEL

A) Israel is Israel
Israel is an election to whom God has revealed His will. Initially it was drawn from a nation born of Abraham, through Isaac and through Jacob - individuals whose faith manifested the Light of God's revealed Word for their day. When the nation rejected that Light and killed the Light-bearer, God turned from that hereditary bloodline to call a people for His Name from an election whose flesh is born of the first Adam but whose soul is born by faith in the last Adam who is Abraham's Seed, Jesus Christ.

B) Disobedient Israelites are not Israel:
- "The soul, whether born in the land, or a foreigner, who reviles the Lord; and that person shall be destroyed from among His people" (Numbers 15:30-31; Acts 3:23; Romans 9:6).

C) Christians are Israel:
- "You do not consider that it is expedient for us, that one Man should die for the people, and that the whole nation should not perish. Caiaphas did not speak of his own accord but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation, and not for Israel only, but that also He should gather together into one the children of God that are scattered abroad" (John 11:50-52; Deuteronomy 32:21; Isaiah 49:6; 55:5; Malachi 1:11; Acts 2:38-39; Ephesians 1:10).

- Considering the Israelites as the spiritual ancestors of we Christians, Paul says, "I would have you to know, brethren, that although our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea . . ." (I Corinthians 10:1).

- "In Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but a new creation. Peace and mercy upon all of you who live by this principle, upon the Israel of God"   (Galatians 6:15-16; Hebrews 8:6,8,10).

- "At that time you were separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world . . . Now you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God" (Ephesians 2:12,19).


JERUSALEM

A) Old Jerusalem was God's only provided Place of Worship for natural Israel
- "You may not sacrifice the Passover within any of your gates, which the Lord your God has given you: but at the place which the Lord your God shall choose to place His Name in, there you shall sacrifice the Passover at evening, at the going down of the sun, at the season that you came forth out of Egypt" (Deuteronomy 16:5-6).

B) New Jerusalem will be God's only provided Place of Worship for the "Saved"
- "The nations of the saved shall walk in the Light of New Jerusalem, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory and honour into it. Its gates will remain open for there will be no night there"  (Revelation 21:24-26).

C) Heavenly Jerusalem is the Lamb's Book of Life, and mother of all of God's Elect
- "Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all" (Galatians 4:26).

- "You have come to mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels; to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, who are written in heaven" (Hebrews 12:22-23).

- "I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband" (Revelation 21:2).


THE NEW COVENANT

A) The New Covenant is with Israel:
- "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah. . . But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and upon their hearts will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people" (Jeremiah 31:31,33; Ezekiel 36:26-27; 37:11-28).

B) The New Covenant is with Christians:
- "This cup is the New Testament in My blood, which is shed for you" (Luke 22:20; I Corinthians 11:25).

- "God has qualified us to be ministers of the New Testament; not in a written Law, but in the Spirit: for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives Life" (II Corinthians 3:6).

- "Now Christ has obtained a ministry which is far superior to the old Laws as the covenant He mediates is better, since it is established upon better promises. . . Finding fault with them, God said, The days will come, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah . . . This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put My laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts: and I will be their God, and they shall be My people" (Hebrews 8:6,8,10).


AN OLIVE TREE

A) Israel is an Olive Tree:
- "A green olive tree, fair, with goodly fruit, the Lord once called you; but at the roaring of the great tempest He will set fire to it and consume its branches" (Jeremiah 11:16; Hosea 14:6).

B) The Christians are an Olive Tree:
- "If you have been cut from a naturally wild olive tree and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, then how much more readily will these natural branches be grafted into their own original tree?" (Romans 11:24).

Old Testament Verses referring to Israel
quoted in the New Testament with reference to Christians

- Leviticus 26:11-12; Ezekiel 37:27: "What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God has said, I will dwell in them, and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people" (II Corinthians 6:16).


- Deuteronomy 30:12-19: "Righteousness based on faith says, Do not say in your heart, Who will ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down) or, Who will descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead). But what does it say? The Word is near you, on your lips, and in your heart: (that is, the Word of faith, which we preach); because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For man believes with his heart and is justified, and confesses with his lips and is saved. The scriptures say, No one who believes in Him will be put to shame" (Romans 10:6-11).


- Deuteronomy 31:6: "Keep your life free from the love of money, and be content with what you have; for God has said, I will never fail you, nor forsake you" (Hebrews 13:5).


- Deuteronomy 32:36; Psalm 135:14: "We know Him who said, Vengeance is Mine, I will recompense. And again, The Lord will judge His people" (Hebrews 10:30).


- Psalm 22:22: "I will proclaim Your Name to my brethren, in the midst of the Church will I sing Your praise" (Hebrews 2:12).


- Psalm 44:22: "As it is written, For Your sake we are being killed all day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Romans 8:36).


- Psalm 95:7-11: "Therefore, as the Holy Ghost says, To day if you will hear His voice, harden not your hearts, as in the rebellion on the day of testing in the wilderness: when your fathers tested Me, proved Me, and saw My works for forty years. Therefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They always go astray in their hearts; and did not learn My ways. As I swore in My wrath, They shall not enter into My rest" (Hebrews 3:7-11).


- Psalm 130:8: "Jesus Messiah gave Himself for us, to redeem us from all iniquity, and purify for Himself a people all His own who are zealous of good works" (Titus 2:14).


- Isaiah 28:16: "As the Scriptures express it, I am sending Christ to be the carefully chosen, precious Cornerstone of My Church, laid in Zion, and he who believes in Him will never be put to shame" (I Peter 2:6).

"You are built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief Cornerstone" (Ephesians 2:20).

"Scripture says, Whosoever believes in Him shall never be ashamed" (Romans 10:11).


- Isaiah 49:8: "The Lord said, I have heard you at the acceptable time, and helped you on the day of salvation: behold, now is the acceptable time; now is the day of salvation" (II Corinthians 6:2).


- Isaiah 52:7: "How can men preach unless they are sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of those that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad news of good things!" (Romans 10:15).


- Isaiah 54:1: "For it is written, Rejoice, O barren woman who does not bear; break out with shouting, you who have no birthpangs: because more numerous are the children of the desolate woman than the one who has a husband" (Galatians 4:27


- Jeremiah 31:31-34: "Finding fault with the Old Covenant, God said, The days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the Covenant I made with their fathers the day I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not remain faithful to My Covenant. So I let them alone, says the Lord. For this is the Covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put My laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts: and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No longer shall each man teach his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord, because they shall all know Me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and their sins I will remember no more" (Hebrews 8:8-12).


- Hosea 1:10; 2:23: "As God also said in Hosea, I will call Gentiles My people, who were not My people; and her who was not beloved, I will call My beloved, and in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there they will be called Sons of the living God" (Romans 9:25-26).

"In times past you Gentiles were not a people, but now you are God's people: once you had had not received mercy but now you have received mercy" (I Peter 2:10).


- Hosea 13:14: "O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?" (I Corinthians 15:55).


- Joel 2:32: "Whosoever shall call on the Name of the Lord shall be saved" (Romans 10:13).


"The Church is Israel Now" may be purchased from Ross House Books (PO Box 67, Vallecito, Ca. 95251, USA) for US$8.00 plus US$3.00 air mail postage.

[natcat86]

Wow!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Don't have time to really dig into it right now, but definitely want to when the rush is over.  :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

I'm sure I agree with a lot of this, with perhaps 2 clarifications that I don't personally believe the author is clear enough on to my satisfaction.

I don't believe in replacement theology - I believe we are Israel in the sense that we're now grafted into the tree through the gift of grace so that we share in the promises.  We are also warned to not boast against the tree (natural Israel) or we won't be spared.

Also, I don't believe God is through with natural Israel, that as the scriptures say, when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, then all Israel shall be saved.

[martincisneros]

I don't believe in replacement theology - I believe we are Israel in the sense that we're now grafted into the tree through the gift of grace so that we share in the promises.  We are also warned to not boast against the tree (natural Israel) or we won't be spared.

Also, I don't believe God is through with natural Israel, that as the scriptures say, when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, then all Israel shall be saved.

That's the way I've always 100% understood it.  But obviously, when the natural branches are grafted back in, they're grafted back into us rather than our being grafted into them.  It's an important distinction, so if that's "replacement theology," I don't know what else to do with what's clear in Scripture that Paul, a Jewish Apostle, doesn't give Israel a hope in Hell apart from Christ.  Natural Israel, however, IS loved for the sake of the Patriarchs and God's purposes don't go to the extent of excluding the natural branches THAT ARE being grafted back in.  And obviously the part about "all Israel shall be saved" means "all Israel shall be saved."

The "millenium" for want of a better phrase, though that thousand year concept in Revelation is becoming increasingly problematic for me to take with any semblance of literalness; the millenium is when both the fig tree (Israel) and the vine (Church) do yield their increase.  The restoration of natural Israel is an important part of God's Work as being among the first of the nations that experientially enter into the living side of the Scripture that says that the Kingdoms of this world are become the Kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ and He/we shall reign to the ages of ages.

And you can have no ET doctrine without the inevitable antisemitism that says that God has cast off Israel forever, which is where the theologians of the reformed tradition will take Romans 9, because if ET is true, then who would go into perpetual flames before who St. Peter and St. Paul indict as the killers of Christ Jesus, i.e. the Jews.  They lay the covenantal responsibility for what happened to the Messiah squarely on the shoulders of Israel when they call them the killers of the Prince of Life and use a lot of other unseemly language about them.  When it says in Revelation that all of the land will mourn because they're confronted with Him coming in judgment, all of the land would be understood in an old Testament sense, or all of the earth as some translations will have it, that it's not talking about the globe but Israel.

There is a judgment there that has happened that those who believe in ET inevitably take too far.  I don't know if it's possible to have a "replacement theology" in the sense that you fear, Jabcat, without the ET dogma 'cause UR presupposes "all of Israel shall be saved" without qualification although there's great debates about when and if it'll ever be a national deliverance in this world from what I've read of some people's posts around here where the suggestion is implicit that all things will continue as they have from the Creation of the world, which St. Peter emphatically denies and promises the great restoration of all things in 2Peter 3 in world history.

We have replaced Israel in the sense that all of the promises of the Word belong to us, and God's got a time schedule that He's working on, so in His eyes, we are Israel, or minimally to be considered Judah since that's the tribe our Lord came from and in the Old Testament there were two Jewish nations, if my saying we're Israel even with saying all of the above is still a bit stout.  However, we've not left Israel without an inheritance in our supplanting of their seat before the throne that's related to the ages that God is working out His purposes of grace.  As St. Paul says, they'll likewise be grafted in again BECAUSE God has the power to.

I think a lot of dispensationalists are deeply afraid of that implication that we've left them without inheritance and no Postmillenialist that I know of that approaches the Scriptures from a basis of UR in any way is trying to say that Abraham has had billions of physical descendants in vain 'cause it's the sting of death in the ET doctrine that implies God has no further purpose with the natural seed and again, I'm not aware of any strong emphasis along those lines in UR circles UNLESS it's accidental in the choice of words that are being used.

God will most definitely restore them because He has the power to do so and Romans is abundantly clear about that, when the fullness of the gentiles comes in, then all of Israel shall be saved; when the predetermined number of Gentiles comes in that must come in before Israel is saved, then all of Israel shall be saved, and the Scriptures indicate that they'll shepherd the nations alongside of us.  I don't dispute that at all.  I merely dispute, personally, a premillenial view of His 3 dimensional physical return which I can't find in Scripture.

If He physically returned, then there's something implicit in Scripture of a total undoing of all that was acheived in His having ascended far above all the heavens.  If He physically returns, then the UR doctrine isn't Scriptural.  Because then He ascended merely to fill the elect and when the elect are filled, then come back and trash and burn the rest.  It says He ascended to fill all things, and if anyone thinks Father has ever ceased creating or ever would cease creating, they don't yet know the heart of the Father.

[jabcat]

I don't believe in replacement theology - I believe we are Israel in the sense that we're now grafted into the tree through the gift of grace so that we share in the promises.  We are also warned to not boast against the tree (natural Israel) or we won't be spared.

Also, I don't believe God is through with natural Israel, that as the scriptures say, when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, then all Israel shall be saved.

That's the way I've always 100% understood it.   both the fig tree (Israel) and the vine (Church) do yield their increase.  The restoration of natural Israel is an important part of God's Work as being among the first of the nations that experientially enter into the living side of the Scripture that says that the Kingdoms of this world are become the Kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ and He/we shall reign to the ages of ages.

And you can have no ET doctrine without the inevitable antisemitism that says that God has cast off Israel forever,
 I don't know if it's possible to have a "replacement theology" in the sense that you fear, Jabcat, without the ET dogma 'cause UR presupposes "all of Israel shall be saved" without qualification
We have replaced Israel in the sense that all of the promises of the Word belong to us, and God's got a time schedule that He's working on, so in His eyes, we are Israel, or minimally to be considered Judah since that's the tribe our Lord came from and in the Old Testament there were two Jewish nations, if my saying we're Israel even with saying all of the above is still a bit stout.  However, we've not left Israel without an inheritance in our supplanting of their seat before the throne that's related to the ages that God is working out His purposes of grace.  As St. Paul says, they'll likewise be grafted in again BECAUSE God has the power to.

God will most definitely restore them because He has the power to do so and Romans is abundantly clear about that, when the fullness of the gentiles comes in, then all of Israel shall be saved; when the predetermined number of Gentiles comes in that must come in before Israel is saved, then all of Israel shall be saved, and the Scriptures indicate that they'll shepherd the nations alongside of us.

:thumbsup:  Yeah, I agree, including what I'm saying is, I don't believe God has totally thrown Israel out of the picture (a remnant remains, saved by the same blood and grace of Jesus as us) or that we've totally supplanted them like I think some believe - that we're "now Israel to the extent that national Israel no longer even exists or that they're totally out of God's view/plan and won't be restored" - that they're basically "nothing" now.  (As with many things, I see most of the truth as being somewhere in the middle of the extremes.)  Some will go so far as to even trash national Israel, when personally, I think we're walking on thin ice when we do that.  God didn't choose them so He could just toss them aside with no further consideration, IMO.  I see that as similar to the belief that God created humanity with the knowledge and intent that 95% of them would burn in torment forever.  I believe both views are short-sighted and narrow-sighted.  I see it all as temporary steps leading to God's permanent restoration of all.

I merely dispute, personally, a premillenial view of His 3 dimensional physical return which I can't find in Scripture.

If He physically returned, then there's something implicit in Scripture of a total undoing of all that was acheived in His having ascended far above all the heavens.  If He physically returns, then the UR doctrine isn't Scriptural.  Because then He ascended merely to fill the elect and when the elect are filled, then come back and trash and burn the rest.  It says He ascended to fill all things, and if anyone thinks Father has ever ceased creating or ever would cease creating, they don't yet know the heart of the Father.

I don't argue for a necessarily "premillinial" return either, I just still do believe though, despite what some other dear bro's and sis's believe, that there will be a time when we're (in our new, immortal bodies) in His direct presence (His immortal, spiritual body).  That it won't always be a hope, that we will indeed see Him face to face - IN ALL HIS GLORY  :bowing:.  Praise God!

[jabcat]

P.S.  We are adopted...that doesn't leave the "biological child" hopelessly abandoned and orphaned.  Remember the prodigal son.  He returned.   :thumbsup:

Who here among us has not been broken
Who here among us is without guilt or pain
So oft' abandoned by our transgressions
If such a thing as grace exists
Then grace was made for lives like this

There are no strangers
There are no outcasts
There are no orphans of God
So many fallen, but hallelujah
There are no orphans of God

Come ye unwanted and find affection
Come all ye weary, come and lay down your head
Come ye unworthy, you are my brother
If such a thing as grace exists
Then grace was made for lives like this

O blessed Father, look down upon us
We are Your children, we need Your love
We run before Your throne of mercy
And seek Your face to rise above

There are no strangers
There are no outcasts
There are no orphans of God
So many fallen, but hallelujah
There are no orphans of God
c twila labar and joel lindsey

[martincisneros]

Some will go so far as to even trash national Israel, when personally, I think we're walking on thin ice when we do that.  God didn't choose them so He could just toss them aside with no further consideration, IMO.

Yeah, it's thin ice, indeed.  Those that curse father and mother shall be put to death, according to the Scriptures, and this area of not cursing Israel gets into the New Testament doctrine of "adoption" that many dispensationalists, particularly the ones that often post around here, genuinely miss.  Adoption isn't adoption to God as though we never had an origin in God.  It's Adoption as children of Abraham in it's proper New Covenant sense.  Because even Romans will say we all come from, through, and to God.  So, nothing of "adoption" allowed by that.  The only other sense in which adoption is used is of the physical bodies putting on the same multi-dimensionality as that of Christ Jesus to where we likewise fill all things "in this world" according to John 17, 1John 4:17, Ephesians 1:23, etc.

Without the first adoption I've mentioned here, though, you couldn't be a part of the second adoption, i.e. the incorruptibility bridge that you cross into immortality.  If you're not a part of the New Covenant, or the "adoption," then you'll never be accounted worthy of the first resurrection.  We're adopted into the family of Abraham. That's an area where both dispensationalists and sometimes I think Postmillenialists will miss the mark in not seeing which family we're "adopted" into.  We're adopted into the Body of the Messiah when it comes to the resurrection, yes, but that's regarding the Abrahamic roots, not regarding the duality that many around here despise and don't perceive as likewise related to the adoption issue if they make the mistake of thinking we're adopted by God.  We've received the adoption of sons, but it's the adoption of sons of Abraham.

[jabcat]

Yeah, that's interesting, since I do believe in pre-existence (our spirits) with God, but I hadn't ever thought about it quite like that.  So since He knew us already, it's more of an adoption into a piece of His plan then, huh?  Again, I see many things as steps of a huge process of Him becoming All in All.  Can't just be throwing things (and people) away, when God's got bigger and better plans  :bigGrin:.