Who shall declare his generation?

[Doug]

Hyper preterists, like critical Bible scholars, limit the generation of Jesus to the first century. They claim that since Jesus said all the things he foretold would occur before his generation passed away, it must have all happened in the first century. But this ignores the resurrection of Jesus, and his immortality. Because Jesus is alive, his generation has not passed away, and it is a unique generation for that reason.
   
Isaiah wrote of Jesus in Isaiah 53:8,

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Hyper preterists and others who limit the generation of Jesus to the first century presume to "declare his generation." They assume it is limited to those alive when Jesus was on the earth, with the exception of Jesus himself.

But why exclude Jesus? Isn't doing so dishonest? Since Jesus rose from the grave, and remains alive, the entire system of hyper preterist interpretation built upon the misinterpretation of the words of Jesus is a fraud!

Isaiah's prophecy implies that the generation of Jesus is a mystery, and something that remains unknown. But it certainly spans all generations since the earthly ministry of Jesus. As Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away." [Luke 21:32-33] Because Jesus was raised from the grave, and remains alive, his generation clearly has not passed away.

Jews who deny the resurrection of Jesus also "declare his generation," and claim it was limited to a few decades in the first century. For them, the "servant" in Isaiah 53 was not Jesus, but the nation of Israel.

A Wikipedia article says:

Judaism, teaches that the "servant" in question is actually the nation of Israel.
These scholars also argue that verse 10 cannot be describing Jesus.
    10 he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days
This description, is inconsistent with the short, childless life of Jesus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_53

Early commentators thought the prophet Isaiah was asking about the number of Christ's descendants, in the spiritual sense. Jerome understood it to say, "who can declare the number of His generation" (i.e. of those inspired by His spirit, or filled with His life)

Thus Isaiah's question would be about the scope of the salvation achieved by Christ. This is also supported in verse 10:

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Who are the seed referred to here? Obviously, those who follow Christ. Jesus sees them, and knows every one of them, because he was raised from the grave, and he is the Shepherd of his sheep. The resurrection explains "he shall prolong his days."

Hyper preterists must be blind, to deny that the days of Jesus have been "prolonged" as Isaiah said, even to the present day, so his generation has not passed away. It will not pass away, ever!

Doug

[Beloved Servant]

Bold and beautiful!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I can still remember when the Lord taught me that about His generation being Spirit, nearly 23 years ago. It made such an impact on me at the time. To declare means to show openly, as no one can hide a light set upon a hill. If you really have received Him, you can't help but show it, because the generation of flesh (including His) begins to recede into the distance as it is being swallowed up of light. And so we read, hereafter we'll not know Him after the flesh but after the Spirit. Blessings.....

[eaglesway]

"Generation" is a word that can mean the universal overall generation of the righteous and the universal overall generation of the wicked, through out all ages. Or it can refer to the continuing state of that generation in a particular period(the sons of disobedience in this present evil age, or the chosen generation in Christ). Or it can also refer to the time specific generation defined by the specific historic reference("David served his generation"). It can also refer to a specific example of wickedness or righteousness as a spiritual and typological sub-group(sons of Esau vs sons of Jacob). The only way to tell the difference is the context(and the Spirit's illumination, of course)

And that these days should be remembered and kept throughout every generation, every family, every province, and every city; and that these days of Purim should not fail from among the Jews, nor the memorial of them perish from their seed.
(Est 9:28)
This speaks of time specific genealogical generations


The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous. (Psa 14:2-5)
This speaks of the universal generation of the righteous.

Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. (Psa 12:7)This refers to the universal generation of the wicked

Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: (Psa 95:10) This is a recurring generation within the people of God, called but failing to enter, because many are called but few are chosen.

This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah. (Psa 24:6)Sons of Esau? or Sons of Jacob? Esau sells out, Jacob wrestles for the prize-  recurring sub-groups within the people of God, and applies to many are called but few are chosen

But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: (Mat 12:39) This is still the only sign given and the generation that rejects it is still alive and kickin (against the pricks! HAHA)

O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. (Mat 12:34) There is the wisdom from above(pure, peaceable, fruitful) and the wisdom from below(earthly psychological,demonic)(James 3:15-17) There were two trees in the garden. There was a serpent who advocated eating death.(Ye are of your father the devil)

To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. Deliver me, O LORD, from the evil man: preserve me from the violent man; Which imagine mischiefs in their heart; continually are they gathered together for war. They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders' poison is under their lips. Selah.
(Psa 140:1-3) The Psalmist recognized them in his generation. "I am for peace but whenever I speak, they are for war".


And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
(Act 2:40) Want to know what we are saved from?! :o)Col 1:21  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled. Be ye not conformed, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your minds- Tit 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; /color]

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (1Pe 2:9-10)

Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
(Mat 23:28-39)"This generation", even in the direct context of Mt 23....could(and should) easily be seen as the generation of the wicked. The wicked and perverse generation. To this very day. Their loss and devastation was primarily the passing of the prophetic word and the promises to the New Jerusalem. The invasion of old Jerusalem in 70AD was just the wind blowing away the ashes.

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled(ginomai). Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(Mat 24:30-37)

Ginomai("fulfilled" in Mt24) is a word that occurs nearly 700 times in the New Testament. Uses such as- That ye "may be", "may become", "come to be", thy will "be done", "came to pass", "there arose", "be" ye therefore, "is" made worse-just a very few of the many variants. A thorough study of the usage indicates to me a wide array of possibilities beyond the hard interpretations of hyper preterism. If someone wants to stand to hard on one or two particular verses or words they ought to go through the 700 uses to see if it is predominantly consistent with their interpretation or not, before they stand too hard on it and get too aggressive with it.

As I see it, All these things were "fulfilled" through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, which took place upon all those who lived in the time specific generation he spoke to, but also to the universal generation of the wicked and the universal generation of the righteous throughout all ages- even as He clearly reveals by the context in Matthew 23:28-29

However, tho we may disagree over the implications and exact interpretations of these times and generations; and the administration suitable to the fulness of time; and the ages to come, etc. Let us not take the poison of the serpent under our tongue. Nor let us judge before the time. The seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by them who make peace. Let us be found in the "generation of the righteous", for many are called but few are chosen.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
(Joh 3:8)


According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
(Eph 1:4-6)

[sheila]

   Great post!!

   I honour the gift of interpretation of the spirit in

    you :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

woops, I had a purple attack.... I'll straighten it out later

[Barry DuPont]

Eaglesway,
How do you see the meaning of "this generation" as used in both Matthew 23 and 24?
For example is Matthew 23 not comparing that specific generation to all previous generations of wicked folk who killed the prophets?

Also could you break down a little the diferences in the meanings as you mentioned in lets say how Matthew presents the word.

Mat 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David [are] fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon [are] fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ [are] fourteen generations.
Mat 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon [is] here.
Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last [state] of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
Mat 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
Mat 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


Blessings Barry

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I agree Eaglesway.......the Word is Spirit written to our spirit, and as such has SPIRITUAL applications to ALL GENERATIONS after the implementation of the Spiritually fulfilled covenant, THAT HAS NOT CHANGED, except in it's application, else He is a respecter of persons. Blessings....

[Barry DuPont]

:cloud9: I agree Eaglesway.......the Word is Spirit written to our spirit, and as such has SPIRITUAL applications to ALL GENERATIONS after the implementation of the Spiritually fulfilled covenant, THAT HAS NOT CHANGED, except in it's application, else He is a respecter of persons. Blessings....

Hey Cardinal.
Why would that make God a respecter of persons?
For example:
Did ending animal sacrifices make God a respecter of persons?

Just curious.
Blessings Barry

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Barry, EVERYTHING in there has a spiritual component for all of us. The animal sacrifices we do today, are REPENTING and offering up those things of the carnal beastly natures in us, that offend and do iniquity. As Matt. 13 says, those things are cast into the fire (of the HG), which is the beginning of the end of our "world", ie. the kingdoms of THIS WORLD (us), are become the kingdoms of God and His Christ.

It is a progressive walk of turning over kingdoms in us, until He is all in all, IN US. Satan sits in the temple declaring that he is god, and whatsoever does not bow the knee in our temples is of that spirit.

My point was, the spiritual covenant was begun way before the natural temple was torn down. If not, then we have two covenants; one for those pre 70 AD, and one for those after it. Blessings....

[eaglesway]

    When will the men of Nineveh rise and condemn this generation, have they done so yet? When will the queen of Sheba? "Fulfilled" is an interesting word as well, since all things were fulfilled through the death burial and resurrection of Jesus, which did indeed come to pass upon that historic generation, but upon all generations past and yet to come as well. I will get into specifics when I have some more time tomoro.

    I have to ask respectfully, Why is EVERYTHING symbolic until we begin to talk about "this generation", and all of the sudden it is all totally literal. I think Jesus certainly was lumping them into the universal generation of Cain in Matthew 23, and saying more about judgement and righteousness and prophetic "history to come" than simply that the Romans were coming. We see throughout Paul's writings that while the Hebrews were removed from Jerusalem the principle of the law and hypocrisy that they represent is alive and well even today, and has been. Until the last enemy bows the knee, that which was fulfilled in the death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Jesus will be working itself out- like a baker kneading the yeast throughout a lump of dough, till all be leavened.

   I do not want to make too many confident assertions of my own either, there is much to learn and explore in the way of discourse. My main point was to say hey, there's a lot to look at in the overall usage of the words, generation and fulfilled. But as I see it, others labored in their generations, we labor in ours, fulfilling our part in the administration suitable to the fulness of times, as God demonstrates His wisdom, mercy and glory in us before the principalities and powers- in preparation for the ages to come. The prophetic works and will of the Father are still manifesting in time, and have many aspects yet to be totally revealed and fulfilled as He makes "All Things New". Our stewardship is exercised in time, and under the constraints of a conflict with this present evil age, in which we do not yet see all things put under His feet.

  That which is hoped for is not yet manifested, faith is the substance of things hoped for, evidence of things as yet unseen.

                                                                                                   Peace, Gotta go, John

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: :thumbsup:

[Barry DuPont]

    When will the men of Nineveh rise and condemn this generation, have they done so yet? When will the queen of Sheba? "Fulfilled" is an interesting word as well, since all things were fulfilled through the death burial and resurrection of Jesus, which did indeed come to pass upon that historic generation, but upon all generations past and yet to come as well. I will get into specifics when I have some more time tomoro.

    I have to ask respectfully, Why is EVERYTHING symbolic until we begin to talk about "this generation", and all of the sudden it is all totally literal. I think Jesus certainly was lumping them into the universal generation of Cain in Matthew 23, and saying more about judgement and righteousness and prophetic "history to come" than simply that the Romans were coming. We see throughout Paul's writings that while the Hebrews were removed from Jerusalem the principle of the law and hypocrisy that they represent is alive and well even today, and has been. Until the last enemy bows the knee, that which was fulfilled in the death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Jesus will be working itself out- like a baker kneading the yeast throughout a lump of dough, till all be leavened.

   I do not want to make too many confident assertions of my own either, there is much to learn and explore in the way of discourse. My main point was to say hey, there's a lot to look at in the overall usage of the words, generation and fulfilled. But as I see it, others labored in their generations, we labor in ours, fulfilling our part in the administration suitable to the fulness of times, as God demonstrates His wisdom, mercy and glory in us before the principalities and powers- in preparation for the ages to come. The prophetic works and will of the Father are still manifesting in time, and have many aspects yet to be totally revealed and fulfilled as He makes "All Things New". Our stewardship is exercised in time, and under the constraints of a conflict with this present evil age, in which we do not yet see all things put under His feet.

  That which is hoped for is not yet manifested, faith is the substance of things hoped for, evidence of things as yet unseen.

                                                                                                   Peace, Gotta go, John

Hey John,
The men of Nineveh were raised up in that generation and condemned it.

In all of the above scriptures Jesus is comparing that generation with those of previous generations. This point is inescapable imo.
The generational point runs through out the New Testament and applied to both believer and non believer. It's focus is those of that generation who has already fallen asleep and those who would be still alive and waiting.
These points are quite inescapable imo.

Blessings Barry

[Doug]

Hey John,
The men of Nineveh were raised up in that generation and condemned it.

Ha ha ha !!!  :laughing7:

[Barry DuPont]

Hey John,
The men of Nineveh were raised up in that generation and condemned it.

Ha ha ha !!!  :laughing7:

I prefer to believe the bible Doug, but glad that you are amused.
They were raise up as in the consumption of that history. That's the whole point of Hebrews 11. It was the life of this life that was judged.

What would be worth a laugh if it was acctually funny is when someone says something like Matthew chapter 24 is not about the first century destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.


Mat 24:2   And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Or denying the clear first century fulfillment of this:
Mat 24:14   And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.  

It's not funny at all. Rather imo it's an indication of an agenda separate and apart from the message we have before us.

Blessing Barry

[eaglesway]

Everyones point is inescapable as they see it. I suggested studying all the references to "generation" and gave reasonable concrete scriptural examples of what I believe. That doesn't make me right....it simply suggests a better means of discourse than someone insisting that THEIR point is inescapable.


   Barry,I understand what you believe about the men of Nineveh- I just disagree. They have not yet risen. Also, what I said was that Mt 24 was about MUCH MORE than the razing of Jerusalem in 70AD.
I really do not care to debate the preterist disposition, as I believe preterism offers many enlightening views of the scripture. I simply believe that as with most systematic theology- it gets taken way to far. I would never hold a sustained debate on the matter because different preterists hold many varying degrees of positions surrounding the focal point of 70AD. My focal point is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, which took place in that generation and tore down their temple of stone and raised up the tabernacle of living stones, and is doing so still today. The physical aspects of how that occurred are no more important that the fact that Adam walked around for hundreds of years after he "died". The dismantling of the elementary principles was accomplished in the body of Christ, not through the invading Romans....that was just the burial. "All these things were a shadow of what was to come....the substance is Christ".

But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
(2Ti 2:23-26)

We could go round and round about whether the men of Nineveh are risen.....I'll just say- "We'll understand it better by and by....."

                                                                                                                        Peace, John

[Barry DuPont]

Thanks for the response John.

I hope you understand that my response to Doug was in relation to Doug's approach to discussion.

About our exchange:
It's not about full preterism verses partial. That's a surface study.
Also my view is much more Pantalist than preterist.

The point however is that the kingdom of God and His reign is Universal and not limited to what happens between the ears of a few select folk that have a religions personal experience. Preterism is really nothing in itself. Preterism by itself is but a meaningless doctrine. And many Preterists have proven that point imo.
It's just that our constant placing ourselves in the setting of the transformation of the ages has not helped us see things all that clearly.

What is of much greater importance is:
How we see the world around us.
How we see people around us.
How we see ourselves before God.
How we see God as creator.
How we see humanity before God.
How we see ourselves in function and purpose while here.

It is rare that the self perceived "elect" do not see themselves as the elite. Very rare.
In fact that was the problem with Israel and it was why the announcement of the kingdom of God was a threat to the religious of that time. It meant their imminent end within the context of that servitude, within the context of that covenant standing.  

At what point do we understanding that love was and is the point. And that love is inclusive not exclusive.

The fulfillment of all things written can be proven beyond any reason of a doubt. But it can never compete with the feelings one derives from exclusivity.

And as such I do believe that many have very much misunderstood the meaning of "in the flesh" and "in the spirit". For in the spirit we are all one. And that is a mind set of love.

While there remains a salvation between the ears such is now a realization of our present reality before God through the work of Jesus Christ, and not an acquisition though a personal change of standing through a personal performance based religious journey. We cannot have the salvation of the first century first fruits. They overcame that world. It is overcome.
Jesus did not as an end result come to establish a new religion but to conclude all in the matter of love. A conclusion that the old covenant and thus the old covenant man could not carry out.

I consider nonsense any doctrine that implies by its very doctrines that Christ had to come and fix a problem that the Father had created. Such are imo religious ideas and religious thoughts that promote exclusivity. And I have every confidence that all such concepts are on the way out as a growing love consciousness and consciousness of Unity comes in.  

I really don't care about the doctrine of preterism John.

Just to let you know.

Blessings and peace to you,
Barry

[Beloved Servant]

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

[eaglesway]

     Thanks Barry, I understand what you are saying, but it sort of illustrates my point about carrying on theological debate..... too many fine points and positions, preterist, pantalist, etc. I do agree, in the spirit we are all one, yet we are exhorted to walk in the spirit, which involves obedience under the stewardship of time by the provision of grace. Some do now, some don't now, all will someday flow in the river of grace. We, as disciples of Christ, have laid down our lives with Him, participating in the reconciliation, knowing that eventually all will glory in Christ and live in the celebration of God's love. Its not an issue of knowledge(gnosticism), it is an issue of brokenness (1Corinthians 13).

    For sure, Christ was not sent to cure a problem the Father created. He was the focus of all creation from the beginning.  Yet, in time, our cocoon of sorts, the chyrsalis is transformed through trial into the image of Christ, the image of God. He is bringing many sons to glory. The form of the emerging butterfly is determined in the womb of time. Sown in futility, raised in glory. The way I see it. when the Logos is expressed, whether in creation or redemption or chaos, it is always with a purpose of God being all in all, for from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

   However, we see through a glass darkly. Elitism is indeed a destructive virus that pantomines pressing towards the mark of the high call of God. It is a broken cistern. Nevertheless, in these ages in which we live the purposes of God, all wrought in His love, work themselves out through our participation and devotion- only He knows for sure how pure or impure that devotion really is. Their are rewards and their are losses connected to stewardship, as I read it. Hence the need for exhortation unto love and good works and the reverence of the Lord God Almighty. So, I generally try to stay within the language of the writings, accepting that I can be free to speak in the same way the writers did.  

   When the definitions and disputes get to convoluted, I just bow out  :laughing7:, for better or for worse, because, as you said.... we are all one in the Spirit- most of us just don't know it yet. My desire is to see the body of Christ moving under the headship of Jesus through the overflow of the Holy Spirit and functioning as a lamp on a lampstand. The reward of having been set on the lampstand comes through the fellowship of His sufferings and the power of His resurrection and I covet it- not out of a desire to rule and glory in the flesh (I hope- but God knows my heart), but a desire to serve and share in my Fathers business. If I call my brethren to press in, and warn some who are at ease, I know I will give account, as all will.

   "Behold, in the volume of the book it is written of me, I come to do your will O God."
   "Zeal for your house consumes me"

   Whatever things are good, whatever things are pure, whatever things are of good report, whatever seed is sown in peace, full of mercy and good fruits. The wisdom from above is not about the details, its about newness of life, peace that passes understanding, and freedom indeed.

  Peace brother.

[Barry DuPont]

Thanks for sharing your views with me John.
I very much appreciate it.

Blessings and peace
Barry

[peacemaker]

Thank you both for sharing your views in the manner which you spoke to one another.

Very noble in quality and expression.