2nd coming of Christ

[Zero7]

What is the general consensus amongst the UR folks about the 2nd coming of our Lord?

Is He physically coming back in the clouds with a loud trumpet blast and every eye will see Him? Plus, this is still a future event.

Did He already come back (AD 70)?  He stated to the disciples that those standing there with Him would live to see His coming.

Is the Father going to put all of Christ's enemies at His feet first then He returns?

I thought I understood this at one time but I am so confused now.

Any help on this? Please dumb it down a bit too. There are so many posts that I read and it seems like people talk in riddles at times.

[Beloved Servant]

Here's a good place to start: www.kingdombiblestudies.org/priest/RP1.htm
Enjoy!

[Zero7]

Beloved, thank you. Reading it now.

[Dallas]

Honestly I don't know if there is a consensus...

I have talked with many people who claim a UR foundation, many of them are quite different. Many believe in fututrism, and many in a fulfilled and many in a walking out at the moment.

I would say however, if one comes to realize the inclusion idea that they also become more accepting of all ideas and thus become more open so a fluxing of ideals.

[glenda]

With Bible prophecy, there is always a (somewhat) immediate fulfillment, for the day in which it was spoken, but also a parallel prophecy for that great theme of the 'last' days. It's the same as it is when the Spirit of God speaks of the two advents of Jesus, they are spoken almost in one breath or continuum, but there is the large space of time between the two advents. I personally figure if His first advent was literal, why not the 2nd? And a literal 1000 year reign, literal judgment day, the whole bit. It's in occult teachings, that the bible, esp the Book of Revelation, that the meanings are hidden spiritual meanings meant only for the "initiated". When God spoke prophecy it always was literal, and also the 1st advent. It was the gnostic sects which claimed Jesus didn't really come in the flesh as they believed creation/matter was the evil, ignoring the words of God at creation, when He said it was "all good". [The sects of gnosticism ranged from extreme asceticism, seeing all things like marriage and eating as evils, to extreme license as what the heck, it's all evil so it makes no difference, of such were the "Nicolaitans" which Jesus hated.
- All I can go by is the verses themselves..
"In that day there will be great tribulation.."
- "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, will be seen.. the Lord coming on the clouds and He will send out His angels to collect His elect from the four directions of the earth" Mt 24:29-31
- "He comes in fire with His angels.." 2 Thess 1:7 (rev16:14,15,16)
- "blessed is the one who makes it to that day" paraphrased, Daniel 12:11,12.
- "just as you have seeN him go into heaven, so shall He return.." Acts 1:19.
- "every eye shall see Him.. and the tribes of the earth shall mourn.." for their sins..
---Also concerning the advents, the Hebrew spring Holy Days were fulfilled by His 1st advent.. He is the PASSOVER lamb.. the UNleavened Bread in the grave, and He is the FirstFruits of God... This makes me believe the autumn Holy Days prophecy His long 2nd advent.. TRumpets!.. 10 days later (1000yrs later) the Day Of Atonement (a mourning for sins/Day of Judgment/examining of all things/&Atonement).. 5 days (500yrs?) later Tabernacles - after a loNg day of Judgment/examination of all things, Rev 20:5 "God Himself will Tabernacle with mankind.." [Note, it's only after the long day of judgment/examination that the infamous words "those not believing will go to the 2nd Death" are spoken, but after experiencing having been resurrected, and living through and witnessing the very long day of examination/review(for 500yrs?) who, is not going to believe?]
- "The sheep will dwell with the lamb, the lion will eat straw like the ox, the bear will be seen grazing with the cow." (Isaiah 11:6,7). Some folks may think of this as mere allegory, but Paul said all things would be subdued and the creation itself is waiting for the glorious liberty of the children of God... All quite joyously literal,imho :))

[Raggedy Anne]

Zero -

I just started reading this web page today on the 'Coming of Christ' and thought I'd post it here so others could read along.
This is an interesting web site that is new to me, so I have not made any personal judgments about it except to say I do agree
with their assessment on the trouble with Popular Dominionist Theology.

The Coming of Jesus, the Christ
http://www.bibleufo.com/coming.htm

[noname]

thanks for the link Anne :thumbsup:

I especially enjoyed the parts on how the world will function with Jesus as King...I do long for that world :bigGrin:

[Barry DuPont]

A few thoughts on the 2nd coming:
Actually there is no 2nd coming in scripture anywhere (as such).
There is a second appearance.
The reason for this distinction is because of the function of the high priest. The High Priest had a second appearance which related to the sacrifice and the acceptance by God of that sacrifice.

Hbr 9:24   For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 
Hbr 9:25   Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 
Hbr 9:26   For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 
Hbr 9:27   And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 
Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Both the first and second appearance fulfill the role of high priest.
It is one coming in two parts or appearances.
The thrust is the fulfillment and so then replacement of types and figures. It is this heavens and earth that is ending.

Hbr 8:12   For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 
Hbr 8:13   In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away. 

Hbr 1:10   And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 
Hbr 1:11   They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;  Hbr 1:12   And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. 
Hbr 1:13   But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 

Hbr 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.  

They were still offering sacrifices in this time of intense decay:
Hbr 9:8 the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath not yet been made manifest, while the first tabernacle is yet standing; 
Hbr 9:9 which [is] a figure for the time present; according to which are offered both gifts and sacrifices that cannot, as touching the conscience, make the worshipper perfect, 
Hbr 9:10 [being] only (with meats and drinks and divers washings) carnal ordinances, imposed until a time of reformation.

They saw the day drawing near and they were waiting for the second appearance of the High Priest.
The people used to wait for the return of the high priest. When they saw him they knew that the sacrifice had been accepted. This is the image or picture that is being presented here.
The second appearance would finalize the end of that which was decaying. 

Blessings Barry

[Zero7]

Raggedy Anne,

I am on part 7 now, very , very good. One of the better articles I've read on the subject.

Plus it kind of fits in with my personal UFO theory.

We are sooo close. Come quickly Lord Jesus.

[Raggedy Anne]

Glad you are getting something from this, Zero. 

I'm looking right now at their list of anomalies.   I tend to agree with this one, generally.
http://www.bibleufo.com/anomprayer.htm

[peacemaker]

(http://dl8.glitter-graphics.net/pub/505/505188q7svxdfz5g.jpg)(http://dl9.glitter-graphics.net/pub/505/505179axpn4p4r56.jpg)
    Praying for my online friends and family             And for all other, brothers and sisters.

[Cardinal]

 :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

There is a unity of principle and substance between the future coming and the fulfilled view if a person is willing to accept it. Like so many a seeming paradox that causes division, the two sides of a coin are in union and mutually valuable(they only have real value as a whole) but are perceived to be separate and in opposition by some(split the two sides of the coin they are individually of little value). I am presenting a bit of my own view for consideration, from Peters 2nd epistle.

2Pe 3:3-13 (4)  and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."  (5)  For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed(came to be) long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,  (6)  through which the world(kosmos) at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.  (7)  But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment(tribunal) and destruction(ruin, perdition) of ungodly men.  (8)  But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.  (9)  The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.  (10)  But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements(stoicheion) will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up(katakaio-consumed, related to katabole, overthrow, foundation, conceive).  (11)  Since all these things are to be destroyed(luo- loosed) in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,  (12)  looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed(luo-loosed, dissolved) by burning, and the elements(stoicheion- order) will melt with intense heat!  (13)  But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Col 2:8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments(stiocheion-order) of the world(kosmos), and not after Christ.


The "world" that was "destroyed" through water, was actually the systems of the existing "kosmos" of that time including the "works" of men and the hierarchal systems of principalities and powers and all the "violence"(oppression and predatory wickedness) of the "stoicheion" of the "kosmos" of that "aion". The physical earth (ge, pr. ghay from whence cometh "gaia") was not destroyed. "As it was in the days of Noah so shall it be in the days of the coming of the son of man". As Peter says, that world was formed out water and by water-meaning the material of the formless void (tohu and bohu). When God spoke "Let there be light", the division of the waters began- separating light and darkness. Then He spoke and separated the waters above from the waters(again, meaning the materials of the formless void) into the "heavens" and the earth. Those separations are also "veils". "the veil that is in the heavens" from Revelations, which shall be rolled back(by fire, burned up, loosed, dissolved) at His parousia(presence, appearing, coming) and epiphenia(revelation, appearing).His Day(hemera) is the consummation of the day that has always been coming(2Pet1:19), and has already dawned in those who believe. In that day(consummation) every eye will see Him- like lightning from east to west,  and I believe, at once within the consciousness of all beings, because the veil that is in the heavens will be rolled back/burned up. The fire of His light and His day will destroy (luo-loose, dissolve) all the works(and systems) of men and the weak and beggarly elements(stoicheion-Gal 4:3,9) of this aion and this kosmos and replace them with a new heavens(made new by purifying fire) and a new earth(made new by purifying fire). "Behold I make all things new". "Every mans work will be tested by fire for the day (hemera) shall reveal it". The shaking of everything that can be shaken until only that which cannot be shaken remains is another way of expressing this same thing, as is the "birth pangs". The earth is in birth pangs, groaning, eagerly awaiting the revelation of the sons of God, in their fulness of having received the purchased possession(of which they have now a down payment, the Holy Spirit)-even the redemption of their bodies(first resurrection). The victorious procession of the Son with "10,000s of 10,000s of His godly ones"(overcomers from throughout the former ages) will usher in the thousand year "Day", His advent both physical and spiritual, setting creation free from futility(the lion shall lay down with the lamb and the child shall play by the adders den and every man will dwell under his own vine and his own fig tree and peace, justice, health and long life will be restored to all men).

Noah was physically delivered through the flood, separated from the old aion/order/kosmos and brought with him a new "kosmos", i.e. heavens and earth.

Jesus is our ark and he has delivered us from death(water) into a new "kosmos". "Translated us from the kingdom of this present darkness into the kingdom of His glorious light". We have "passed from death into life." We are "seated with Christ in the heavens".

I think it is interesting that the "heavens and earth" that "existed" are compared to the "heavens and earth" that are now(present) and the new "heavens and earth" that will be after His overwhelming presence. The "was, is and is to come" of the I AM revealed as an administration suitable to the fulness of times. "Then comes the end when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father, when he shall have put down all rule power and authority." ... ....."And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."


Eph 2:6-7  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:  (7)  That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Eph 3:20-21  and to Him who is able above all things to do exceeding abundantly what we ask or think, according to the power that is working in us,  (21)  to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

2Pe 3:17-18  Ye, then, beloved, knowing before, take heed, lest, together with the error of the impious being led away, ye may fall from your own stedfastness,  (18)  and increase ye in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ; to him is the glory both now(nun, pronounced noon), and to the day(hamera) of the age! Amen.

Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


Luk 24:38-43  And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?  (39)  Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.  (40)  And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.  (41)  And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?  (42)  And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.  (43)  And he took it, and did eat before them.

Act 1:9-11  And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.  (10)  And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;  (11)  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

This physical man Jesus was glorified after His resurrection and as the celestial son of man, all the fulness of the deity dwells in Him. He is able to command every physical atom(Heb 1:1-3) and every conscious being, created or born(Phillipians 2:10) and will until the end, when He returns all to the Father that God may be "all in all".

[Molly]

Loved that, Eaglesway.  A question:  Do you think this event might be different things to different people?  Who may abide the day of his coming?  And, who shall stand when he appeareth?


2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

"with a roar"

G4500
ῥοιζηδόν
rhoizēdon
hroyd-zay-don'
Adverb from a derivative of ῥοῖζος rhoizos (a whir); whizzingly, that is, with a crash: - with a great noise.



in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

--1 Cor 15


"the trumpet shall sound"

G4537
σαλπίζω
salpizō
sal-pid'-zo
From G4536; to trumpet, that is, sound a blast (literally or figuratively): - (which are yet to) sound (a trumpet).

G4536
σάλπιγξ
salpigx
sal'-pinx
Perhaps from G4535 (through the idea of quavering or reverberation); a trumpet: - trump (-et).


G4535
σάλος
salos
sal'-os
Probably from the base of G4525; a vibration, that is, (specifically) billow: - wave.


G4525
σαίνω
sainō
sah'ee-no
Akin to G4579; to wag (as a dog its tail fawningly), that is, (generally) to shake (figuratively disturb): - move.


5 according to the covenant that I made with you when you came out of Egypt. My Spirit remains in your midst. Fear not. 6For thus says the LORD of hosts: Yet once more, in a little while,I will shake the heavens and the earth and the sea and the dry land. 7And I will shake all nations, so that the treasures of all nations shall come in, and I will fill this house with glory, says the LORD of hosts.

--Haggai 2



Matthew 7:25
And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  :thumbsup:

[Barry DuPont]

Some very interesting points Eaglesway. Thanks a lot, really enjoyed that read.

From my own vantage point, how is one to separate the end of that Kosmos "that system" from the end of that covenant (order of Kosmos) system? An end which did take place in AD 70 at the "coming of the Lord". When the Jerusalem that then was, was taken away.


Gal 4:1 Now I say, [That] the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;  
Gal 4:2   But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.  
Gal 4:3   Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: {the old covenant elements}
Gal 4:4   But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,  
Gal 4:5   To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.  
Gal 4:6   And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7   Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.  
Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.  
Gal 4:9   But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, {of the old covenant order, old covenant age} whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?  
Gal 4:10   Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.  
Gal 4:11   I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.  
Gal 4:12   Brethren, I beseech you, be as I [am]; for I [am] as ye [are]: ye have not injured me at all.  
Gal 4:13   Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.  
Gal 4:14   And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, [even] as Christ Jesus.  
Gal 4:15   Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if [it had been] possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.  
Gal 4:16   Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?  
Gal 4:17   They zealously affect you, {the Judaizers teaching the law and circumcision} [but] not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.
 
Gal 4:18   But [it is] good to be zealously affected always in [a] good [thing], and not only when I am present with you.  
Gal 4:19   My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,  
Gal 4:20   I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.  
Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, {under the old covenant order, the elements of that kosmos} do ye not hear the law?  
Gal 4:22   For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.  
Gal 4:23   But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.  
Gal 4:24   Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.  
Gal 4:25   For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.  
Gal 4:26   But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.  

The same point from Colossians.
Col 2:8   Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments {elements} of the world, and not after Christ.  
Col 2:9   For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.  
Col 2:10   And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:  
Col 2:11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, {the elements of that age} in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

So then the question IMO is (generally speaking), "When were the elements of that world destroyed, and the works therein?"
Who were the princes of that age who were then coming to nothing? And when did they come to nothing?

1Cr 2:6 And wisdom we speak among the perfect, and wisdom not of this age, nor of the rulers of this age -- of those becoming useless,  
1Cr 2:7 but we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory,  
1Cr 2:8 which no one of the rulers of this age did know, for if they had known, the Lord of the glory they would not have crucified;

Blessings Barry

[eaglesway]

I agree with your presentation of the covenant and "kosmos". I see it's application in the administration of the age times differently.

I see that transfer date as the Day of Pentecost, Even as Adam walked around for a few hundred years after he "died"(passed from life unto death), the tatters of the old covenant system walked around Jerusalem,until it was buried by the Romans(70AD). However, Zion was ALREADY alive in the ecclesia(passed from death unto life), who were already "seated in Christ in the heavenlies" and sons according to the promise. The government of God was fully invested(transferred) into Christ, who is head over all things to the church(Eph 1), His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all, the NEW JERUSALEM. I believe Paul is establishing this in Romans nine through eleven and Galatians 3, 4 and Colossians 2 and Hebrews 11.  "You have not come unto a mountain burning with fire......you have come to Mt. Zion and myriads of angels and the spirits of righteous men made perfect and the heavenly Jerusalem." I believe Psalm 2 and 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 are beginning to be fulfilled (dawn)when, according to Peters proclamation "This Jesus whom you crucified, God has made both Lord and Christ and exalted Him to His  right hand where He(Christ) having received the Holy Spirit (without measure, in him dwells all the fulness) and has poured forth "this which you do now both see and hear." What could not be perfected(completed) in the flesh through the law was completed(and is being completed progressively) through death,burial and resurrection. For we participate in His death by faith in the cross and submission to His Lordship. We participate in His resurrection through the Spirit who is given as a pledge (down payment) to all those who believe. Before Jesus was glorified the Spirit was not given(John 7). According to Peter's opening proclamations(Acts 2 and 3) of the new dawn and the coming full noon(whom the heavens must receive until the times of the restoration of all things, spoke of by all the prophets- full noon). The old ministration of the letter was done away and the new ministration is that of the Holy Spirit in the body of Christ.The woman clothed with the sun(the bride) is now standing on the moon(old order, reflected glory as Moses face) gestating the manchild(producing overcomers, Eph 4, 5, 6). The law was "destroyed" (rendered of none effect) and superseded (new kingdom, new life).

Gal 3:13-27  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:  (14)  That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.  (15)  Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.  (16)  Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.  (17)  And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.  (18)  For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.  (19)  Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.  (20)  Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.  (21)  Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.  (22)  But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.  (23)  But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.  (24)  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.  (25)  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.  (26)  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.  (27)  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

In fact, as I see it, the transfer was complete at the resurrection, because Jesus had satisfied the law and taken the keys of (taken authority over) the grave and death as per 1 Cor 15. But it was delivered to us, at Pentecost in the power of the Spirit of resurrection life...."for if the same Spirit that raised Jesus Christ dwell in you". The Zion of God is now in us, the mystery of the gospel, Christ in you the hope of glory.

Col 2:14-20  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;  (15) And having spoiled(divested wholly Strg) principalities and powers, he made a shew(exhibit) of them openly, triumphing(acclamatory procession) over them in it. (16)  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:  (17)  Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body(substance, sound whole) is of Christ.  (18)  Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,  (19)  And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.  (20)  Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

The contrast is between the headship of Jesus in the body, the new center of the covenant, and the old rudiments.

Gal 1:3-5  Grace to you, and peace from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ,  (4)  who did give himself for our sins, that he might deliver us out of the present evil age, according to the will of God even our Father,  (5)  to whom is the glory to the ages of the ages. Amen.

We are walking around as aliens in "this present evil age" wherein we do not yet SEE all things subject to Him. This will be so until the day when the proclamation is made,"The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our God and His Christ", at which time we will SEE the nations subject to His Lordship, tho as with a rod of iron, the high King and high Priest ruling and reigning with the kingdom of preists, the word of the Lord covering the earth as the water covers the sea, the glory of the Lord covering the earth as the water covers the sea, and the mountain of the Lord being exalted above all the other mountains. "Come, let us go unto the mountain of the house of the Lord..... "

Also as I see the word "kosmos" used, it can be represented of the entire creation of God, and of individual ages and systems, and even systems within systems. Jesus rocked my world :o)....We know that the "earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof". Yet the god of this "kosmos" blinds those who have not yet received the reconciliation, who are darkened in their understanding as we all once were. Examples:

The universal kosmos including "the all"- all things, beings, and ages
Rom 1:19-20  Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.  (20)  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world(kosmos) are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The limited kosmos of the "present evil age" in which warfare is being waged as God demonstrates His wisdom to the principalities and powers through the church
2Co 4:3-4  But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:  (4)  In whom the god of this world(kosmos) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


         

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  :thumbsup:

[Barry DuPont]

Very interesting points Eaglesway. And I definitely agree with some of your points and some of your time frame.

If  I've understood you, why the difference between covenants and ages?

Anyway this is how I see the ages.

The present evil age is the age that the old covenant while it still had validity or precedence.
Paul in his ministry and Jesus in his earthly ministry are in the same age: 
Young's literal:
Mat 13:37 And he answering said to them, `He who is sowing the good seed is the Son of Man, 
Mat 13:38 and the field is the world, and the good seed, these are the sons of the reign, and the darnel are the sons of the evil one, 
Mat 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers. 
Mat 13:40 `As, then, the darnel is gathered up, and is burned with fire, so shall it be in the full end of this age, 

1Cr 2:6 And wisdom we speak among the perfect, and wisdom not of this age, nor of the rulers of this age -- of those becoming useless, 
1Cr 2:7 but we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory, 
1Cr 2:8 which no one of the rulers of this age did know, for if they had known, the Lord of the glory they would not have crucified; 
Paul and Jesus are both referring to the same present age and the same end of that age.

Mat 24:1 And having gone forth, Jesus departed from the temple, and his disciples came near to show him the buildings of the temple, 
Mat 24:2 and Jesus said to them, `Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.' 
Mat 24:3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?' 

This full consummation of the age covers entire history of biblical eschatology.
Mat 23:35   That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 
Mat 23:36   Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 

Paul is in the same age as Jesus and waiting for the same end of that age:

Gal 1:4 who did give himself for our sins, that he might deliver us out of the present evil age, according to the will of God even our Father, 
Gal 1:5 to whom [is] the glory to the ages of the ages. Amen. 
Gal 1:6 I wonder that ye are so quickly removed from Him who did call you in the grace of Christ to another good news; 

Gal 4:24   Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 
Gal 4:25   For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 
Gal 4:26   But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 

This is the time of transition between covenants. But the end of that age does not take place until the old covenant is ended.
Like in the generation that was freed from Egypt they are still not in the promise land.

Hbr 3:6   But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. 
Hbr 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 
Hbr 3:8   Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 
Hbr 3:9   When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 

Hbr 4:1  Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Hbr 4:2   For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].

Hbr 8:13   In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away. 
Again this end of that age coincides with the end of the standing of their temple in that time and generation:

ASV
Hbr 9:8 the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath not yet been made manifest, while the first tabernacle is yet standing; 
Hbr 9:9 which [is] a figure for the time present; according to which are offered both gifts and sacrifices that cannot, as touching the conscience, make the worshipper perfect,



This is the "gathering" unto Christ that they were told not to forsake in this transition time as they saw the "day" the day approaching.

Hbr 10:25   Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 
Hbr 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, {There would remain no more old covenant sacrifices once the temple would be destroyed.}
The transition period that stood officially in the old covenant age was the time of the redemption of the purchased possession.
It is why it sounds so much like saying the "already but not yet".

Through the cross they lived by the implication of the new age while still living in the time of the old.
However Hebrews is clear that the "sacrifice" had two appearances as did the High Priest (type and figure). When the High Priest appeared a second time they knew that the sacrifice had been accepted by God.
Neither the cross nor Pentecost did constitute a new age. The second appearance did.
The law and the prophets never prophesied two comings.  It was one coming in two appearances of one high priest.

We have been in the new age since AD 70 imo.
Paul and James understood these points:
Act 21:20   And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 
Act 21:21   And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs. 
Act 21:22   What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 
Act 21:23   Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 
Act 21:24   Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 
Act 21:25   As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. 
Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.



Paul was able to do this as a Hebrew. Not as a confidence in the flesh but as a token to still standing types and figures of the "good things to come".
The Gentiles were forbidden to enter into Israel's natural things but rather were entering into Israel's spiritual things.

The point being:
Mat 5:18   For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 
If AD 70 is not the end of those heavens and earth then the Jews are still under the law.

Luk 21:22   For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 
JMO Many blessings to you.

[eaglesway]

Correction:

In my previous post I used 2 Cor 4:4 "god of this world" as an example....I meant to use John 16:11 "prince of this world". In 2 Corinthians 4:4 "world" is aion, not kosmos in Jn 16:11 it is kosmos. The point remains the same.
I will read and respond to your post, Barry, sometime tomoro- Grace and Peace, John

[eaglesway]

Heb 9:8-28  The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:  (9)  Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;  (10)  Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.  (11)  But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;  (12)  Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.  (13)  For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:  (14)  How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?  (15)  And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.  (16)  For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.  (17)  For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.  (18)  Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.  (19)  For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,  (20)  Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.  (21)  Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.  (22)  And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.  (23)  It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.  (24)  For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:  (25)  Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;  (26)  For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.  (27)  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:  (28)  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
In the example the writer of Hebrews is showing the symolic message of the relationship between the holy of holies and the holiest place, and Christs new preisthood in the new tabernacle, us. The first tabernacle was "destroyed" in  the body of Christ. The first covenant/tabernacle(old Moses/law/earthly Israel) being represented by the holy place, the second (New, Christ/body of Christ) represented by the holy of holies. Christ entered "once for all" into the holy of holies in the heavenlies and secured the "new and living way"through the veil. The covenant ratified by the death of the testator, in this case Jesus, as the one sacrifice sufficient for all sins of all men in all times, a sacrifice rendering null all other sacrifices and a covenant superseding all other covenants ratified by Hid death burial and resurrection. We have received the pledge on the inheritance of the "testator" which we receive by joining Him in death through faith. That pledge on the inheritance was given at Pentecost. I am writing this on the outside chance someone reading does not already understand my view. I have no desire of carrying out any long term debate on the preterist position.

[eaglesway]

By the way, I mean no offence to anyone who holds another position ..... its just a disagreement I prefer to avoid, having had the discussion many times. "If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin." Grace and peace, John

[Barry DuPont]

Thanks for sharing your views Eaglesway.
There is a lot to agree on IMO.
Barry

[Zero7]

Glad you are getting something from this, Zero. 

I'm looking right now at their list of anomalies.   I tend to agree with this one, generally.
http://www.bibleufo.com/anomprayer.htm

Raggedy Anne, not really following your comment on anomalies.  :dontknow:

[eaglesway]

    Molly, somehow I missed your post till tonight. I want to say, YES. I think it will have different effects upon different people. If every eye will see Him (to me meaning every sentient being of every age, place and time up to that time will experience that moment in some way), even those who pierced Him, then some will cry out to the rocks to hide them(even as Adam and Eve hid in the garden), while others will rejoice at His appearing. Some who are rooted in the systems of this age will see their houses fall while others who are rooted in the age to come will stand with all that "cannot be shaken and remains".

    Even now as the dawn grows towards the noon the houses that can be shaken are being shaken in the process of the birth pangs. The earth will yield her fruit like ripened figs shaken from the fig tree. The axe is always being laid to the root of the trees, the wheat always being separated from the chaff and burnt up with unquenchable fire. Every man's work is being tested by fire as the day reveals it, in part now, but then in full. The gold silver and precious stone will remain. That which cannot be shaken will remain. The fruit of John 15 (produced abiding in the vine) will remain, while the withered branches are being cut off and thrown into the fire, because the "day" burns up(withers) anything that falls away from "abiding life". Hence, even in view of the wonderful promise of ultimate universal reconciliation- the salvation of all- the warnings to keep our vessel full of oil, and abide in the vine, and endure to the end.

  I personally believe the body of Christ will become the Lamp set upon the lampstand shining light into all the house(earth), sort of like the negative ions on earth rise up to meet the positive ions coming down from the shy(ouranos/heavens/sky) creating the channel of the lightning when it flashes.

      Eph 4:11-15  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;  (12)  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ(woman clothed in the sun):  (13)  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a mature man(gestation), unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:(manchild)  (14)  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive(dragon breath);  (15)  But speaking the truth in love(effective warfare), may grow up into him in all things(caught up to his throne), which is the head, even Christ: