savior of the all men..but not in a salvation sense?

[NinjaWizards777]

calvinists give me headaches...none the less, one is debating me on a forum. It seems he isnt able to do anything but pull stuff out of calvinist commentaries but heres ones he pulled out in regards to 1 tim 4:10:

Ft. note, 75.The word Savior is not here taken in what we call its proper and strict meaning, in regard to the eternal salvation which God promises to his elect, but it is taken for one who delivers and protects. Thus we see that even unbelievers are protected by God, as it is said (Matthew 5:46) that "he maketh his sun to shine on the good and the bad;" and we see that all are fed by his goodness, that all are delivered from many dangers. In this sense he is called "the Savior of all men," not in regard to the spiritual salvation of their souls, but because he supports all his creatures. In this way, therefore, our Lord is the Savior of all men, that is, his goodness extends to the most wicked, who are estranged from him, and who do not deserve to have any intercourse with him, who ought to have been struck off from the number of the creatures of God and destroyed; and yet we see how God hitherto extends his grace to them; for the life which he gives to them is a testimony of his goodness. Since, therefore God shows such favor towards those who are strangers to him, how shall it be with us who are members of his household?: Not that we are better or more excellent than those whom we see to be cast off by him, but the whole proceeds from his mercy and free grace, that he is reconciled to us through our Lord Jesus Christ, since he hath called us to the knowledge of the gospel, and then confirms us, and seals his bounty toward us, so that we ought to be convinced that he reckons us to be his children. Since, therefore, we see that he nourishes those who are estranged from him, let us go and hide ourselves under his wings; for, having taken us under his protection, he has declared that he will show himself to be a Father toward us." — Fr. Ser.
Calvin, J. (2002; 2002). Calvin's Commentaries. Galaxie Software.

This really seems to be stretching the meaning of 1 tim 4:10 by leaps and bounds to me, but what do you guys think?

[WhiteWings]

So basicly he argues Jesus died for nothing.

(Matthew 5:46) that "he maketh his sun to shine on the good and the bad;" and we see that all are fed by his goodness, that all are delivered from many dangers. In this sense he is called "the Savior of all men,"

So God is the saviour of all.

Well not really that's why He send Jesus to save the elect that was already saved.

So basicly:
a] God keeps alive 100% of humanity and after death fries 95% of humanity.
b] Jesus...what was His purpose? Nothing because God was already the Saviour of all and Jesus changed nothing.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Ninja ive seen some twisting of scripture in my time, but that one runs close to taking the biscuit.
You cant really debate with people like that because some people just aren't willing to change their minds...It's hard for someone to step down and admit that they are wrong, especially with somthing like religion where people believe they know God and others do not...  Noone wants to think they might be wrong, because their beliefs are in some cases theyre LIVES.
I say just love the person and pray for him.

I would just put the truth out there and leave it at that. 
God will be all in all. 
Jesus is the saviour of all men especially believers. 
They can twist words all they want but it wont change anything.
Jesus wouldn't burn anyone in a big fire!  I wouldn't and I'm not good enough to tie his shoelaces.

[Barry DuPont]

1Ti 4:10   For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.  

The reason why Paul and those like him were suffering reproach and the reason why labouring is because they taught salvation for everyone.
The contrary to this teaching we see here in this very setting, the Judaizer. From chapter 1 we see them and we see them in the beginning of this chapter (4) right up to this verse.
Now here is the problem.
If Paul was preaching that God blesses the gentiles because He blesses all his creatures this would not have caused a suffering or reproach from those who are doing the persecution.
No where anywhere does Paul or Christians suffer reproach from anyone simply because they claimed that God blesses everyone.
On the contrary, the persecution came in because they taught that others besides Jews would be saved.

So then Calvin simply put his own thoughts into the context to come up with his own explanation. One that makes no sense actually.

1Ti 1:7   Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

These are the Judaizers, teaching salvation only through law observation (becoming a Jew in their view).

Calvin is not explaining the context of "salvation" correctly. So whatever salvation was to be for Israel, this is what salvation was to be for all. This is why Paul suffered reproach from his brethren according to the flesh. Whatever "salvation" is here must correspond to the persecution.  

Barry

[sparrow]

Ninja ive seen some twisting of scripture in my time, but that one runs close to taking the biscuit.
You cant really debate with people like that because some people just aren't willing to change their minds...It's hard for someone to step down and admit that they are wrong, especially with somthing like religion where people believe they know God and others do not...  Noone wants to think they might be wrong, because their beliefs are in some cases theyre LIVES.
I say just love the person and pray for him.

I would just put the truth out there and leave it at that. 
God will be all in all. 
Jesus is the saviour of all men especially believers. 
They can twist words all they want but it wont change anything.
Jesus wouldn't burn anyone in a big fire!  I wouldn't and I'm not good enough to tie his shoelaces.

Amen to everything you said, bro.

[Gab]

So, basically, Jesus is everyone's savior despite the fact that he didn't save everyone?

How can I be another's savior if I did not save that person?  That's just the basic definition of the word: a savior is one who saves.

This person managed to write (or copy and paste) a rather large paragraph, but he also equally managed to say absolutely nothing in doing so - an impressive feat, to be sure. :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

So, basically, Jesus is everyone's savior despite the fact that he didn't save everyone?

IMO he claims Father is the saviour of all because He lets the sun shine and rain fall even on the wicked.
So there was nothing to add for Jesus.
The way I read it; they are twisting so much they claim Jesus came for no reason. Surely that's not really what they believe but it's their own trap they got caught in.

[Gab]

IMO he claims Father is the saviour of all because He lets the sun shine and rain fall even on the wicked.

Yes, but that's my point: what are the wicked being saved from?  They can dress it up all they want, but they're ultimately asserting that Jesus can be a savior to those who were not saved from anything, which... makes no logical sense whatsoever.

[NinjaWizards777]

which... makes no logical sense whatsoever.

in my experience, something being completely illogical has no bearing on the person believing it to be true. Just look at the doctrine of "free" will and how captivated people have been by that idea for centuries...when in reality its one of the easiest arguments to unhinge(imo)

[WhiteWings]

IMO he claims Father is the saviour of all because He lets the sun shine and rain fall even on the wicked.

Yes, but that's my point: what are the wicked being saved from?

From instant death at birth. They are allowed to enjoy the earth for their life time.
They didn't earn that. They should have been born right in the fires of hell.
So God gave them a break by letting them have a few decades of fun on earth before they are kicked into hell. Say they all get 75 year old. Then God saved them/all from an extra 75 year of torture.
That's how I read that commentary....

[Gab]

IMO he claims Father is the saviour of all because He lets the sun shine and rain fall even on the wicked.

Yes, but that's my point: what are the wicked being saved from?

From instant death at birth. They are allowed to enjoy the earth for their life time.
They didn't earn that. They should have been born right in the fires of hell.
So God gave them a break by letting them have a few decades of fun on earth before they are kicked into hell. Say they all get 75 year old. Then God saved them/all from an extra 75 year of torture.
That's how I read that commentary....

Well, that's, um, "interesting", I suppose...

[WhiteWings]

Gab,
You sound almost as convincing as the article  :laughing7:

[Gab]

Gab,
You sound almost as convincing as the article  :laughing7:

I do find the post interesting, but more in terms of a psychological case study than in terms of an actual cogent argument. :grin:

[NinjaWizards777]

its really funny though because calvinists usually spend all their time explaining how "world", "all" and "nations" do not actually apply to literally all people. then on this verse they pull a doozey, and decide to just dumb-down the meaning of "saviour" and the result of Gods salvation(which, as was stated above, what are they really being saved from in calvins proposed case anyway?)

[sven]

it looks to me like an attempt to make the bible not to say what it says - something they accuse universalists to do also.

[legoman]

IMO he claims Father is the saviour of all because He lets the sun shine and rain fall even on the wicked.

Yes, but that's my point: what are the wicked being saved from?

From instant death at birth. They are allowed to enjoy the earth for their life time.
They didn't earn that. They should have been born right in the fires of hell.
So God gave them a break by letting them have a few decades of fun on earth before they are kicked into hell. Say they all get 75 year old. Then God saved them/all from an extra 75 year of torture.
That's how I read that commentary....

God gives them a nice steak dinner right before He throws them all into the oven for eternity.  And that's loving because He could have skipped the steak dinner...

[legoman]

its really funny though because calvinists usually spend all their time explaining how "world", "all" and "nations" do not actually apply to literally all people. then on this verse they pull a doozey, and decide to just dumb-down the meaning of "saviour" and the result of Gods salvation(which, as was stated above, what are they really being saved from in calvins proposed case anyway?)

Yeah I've noticed that too.  And you know the reason they generally give for doing that?  If "world" really meant all people, then the bible would be preaching universalism!!!!!!!!!!!!  :mshock:

LOL They can't see it because they don't want to.

BTW Ninja where do you post with Calvinists?  Its not over at CARM is it?

[NinjaWizards777]

oh no! Not universalism! I dont want everyyone to have gods grace...just me me me me me! its like the jews of old all over again, thinking its just about THEM, and God just wants to save THEM

no, I wouldnt touch CARM with a 10ft pole lol. This particular calvinist I found over at the "faith freaks" forums, which is basically a Christian version of myspace that I joined for some random unknown reason lol.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: That's exactly what it's like. It's like the rapture; a doctrine of selfishness based on fear. Grieves your Spirit. Blessings....