Universalism VS Free Will

[Lydiah]

Hi Everyone!  Thank you for your site.  I am going to express my inquiry by stating my current understanding  :bigGrin:  I write this sounding like I am adamant :>) but really just intense regarding expressing what I believe.. no argument intended.  I am praying regarding these discussions!

First - I agree that Hell/Hell fire is a wrong teaching.  I read about Universalism on the site.

What about free will?  I think there are 2 deaths.  One where the physical body is destroyed (the first death) and one where God can and may destroy both the body and the soul (who you are, body and personality); The second death.

Adam and Eve were not born in "adamic" sin like us.  They were perfect as was Satan originally.  Yahweh gives us free will or we are animals.  Because we (the offspring of Adam and Eve) were born into imperfection (sin) we need a redeemer.  Hence His Son came and died for me and ALL humans!  However, we need to receive Him, His name and Spirit.  God calls us and we come and put faith in what is heard (the Word).  This is the commandment right?  That all come to believe in this, God Son.

The people who physically DIED (1st death) without the knowledge of Yahshua and the chance to know God and turn to Him - have PAID for their sin.  The wage sin pays is death....yes (Romans 6:23)?  So after the return of Christ in the 1000 year reign of Christ....ALL those in the memorial tombs, hear His voice and come out...some to a resurrection of LIFE and some to a resurrection of Judgment.  What JUDGMENT?  If you died and paid for your sin...right? 

The judgment Day (a day to the Lord is a 1000 years)  is based upon what choice the uninformed dead humans, Gentiles and Jews alike,make - AFTER" they are resurrected from the first death!!!  Some might still choose death (the 2nd one).  God did not "will" for Satan to rebel or for Adam and Eve to rebel.  He allowed them to choose.  They (Adam and Eve) likely went directly to the 2nd death as they were perfect when they sinned (my opinion).

That is why our loving, just, and merciful God gives everyone (all born under sin) the chance for reconciliation....He calls us all...but some do not answer.  All dead, aborted, short lived people come back in the resurrection from the first death.  All poor, sick and lost and hopeless sinners come back - all mean and nasty power mongers come back!  Hopefully, most chose Life (Jesus...I am the Way and the Truth and the LIFE)..."beat their spears into plowshares and their swords into pruning shears..." and live under the reign of Jesus and all the Royal Priesthood that come back with Him (us I hope :>) to do the judging and the healing of the nations.  That's why we are called "Kings and Priests".  We come back to help accomplish God's will.

Satan is locked up during this time so all those people can learn unhindered by Him.  Then at the end of the 1000 years He is loosed and goes to deceive the nations again (a final testing which we who have already been tested do not have to endure).  Some choose rebellion.  It explains why a mere boy will die at 100 years of age (Isaiah).  The resurrected are being perfected during this healing reign and when they are all perfected they have the choice to make - serve God (blessing) and accept, receive, His beautiful Son, or not (malediction).  They will not have to choose under sin - but under the same perfect conditions that their original parents were given.  God's Word goes out and will not come back unfulfilled!!!

Then the kingdom after the final end of Satan, etc - will be handed back to the Father to be ALL in ALL (I Corinthians 15).  This does not negate God's love but would be Justice with MERCY.  This does not force us to disagree with God telling us that "outside are the fornicators and the murderers and...so on" (Revelation 21-22).  I know you know the scriptures. 

Everyone and everything is finally reconciled because -anyone -  including Satan and His fallen angels and anyone who is given the full chance in perfection -  who CHOOSES rebellion -  will be sent to the 2nd death (The Lake of Fire symbolically). 

This is not eternal torment (Satanic teaching), but an everlasting cutting off (death) from Yahweh.  Hence All are tested fairly.  God is not a tormentor, and free will is intact- God is Love and Justice and Mercy and Salvation.  Hallelujah!

Otherwise...why bother letting us go through this suffering to get to the place where we started??  Why not stop Satan from rebelling and Adam and Eve from falling?  Why put us all through it to finally fully and totally restore every intelligent being regardless of their choice (including Satan and demons and, etc.)?  That would negate free will.  God is answering the challenge to His sovereignty.  Only free will can allow real love.  Now if perfection always results in following God, then why did Satan and 1/3 of the angels rebel?  They were perfect originally.

Please comment or correct me.  Sorry for the redundancies :>)Humbly, Lydia

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hi Lydia.......due to the vehement arguments put forth by both sides of the free will vs. God's sovereignty issue, the owner of the board, Gary Amirault has decided not to allow those topics to be discussed. So if you're wondering why any comments that may or may not come do not address that part of your post, that is why.

There is a "sticky" thread that contains our divergent views on this subject before the "ban" was in place, in one of the sections of the board, at the top, with a thumbtack symbol holding it there. Please read the articles on the main section as well. Thanks........ :thumbsup:

[HartleyDamboiseII]

BUT, I have to admit that that was the best put way to put it, well worded.

Even tho I don't agree.  Well worded, well spoken.

[Lydiah]

Thank you.  How do I do this :>)??  Do I just read more about Universalism and accept it?  How does one discuss it?  Is there a proper place here?  Thank you again!  Lydia

[HartleyDamboiseII]

I am  a little new at the rules too, just see what are "off limit subjects" and learn to talk around them as best as you can in the beginning.

ie start by reading some of the forum rules

[sven]

honestly, I often wish what you believe were true, that we have a true choice, live and death as taught in Torah, my faith often is weak.

However I do not believe we have a free will, own will - yes, free will - no.

I was suicidal a few years past, and I am happy that I am still alive, every person wants to live - sometimes just the conditions are bad, though I am sometimes scared about "eternity" I also look forward to it.

As far as I know, all early church fathers who were universalists believed in free will, while those who believed in predestination (Augustine) taught eternal torment.

I have no moral objection against the doctrine of annihilation and am glad that you reject the damnable doctrine of endless suffering, however I see the doctrine of annihilation contradicting passages that clearly teach universalism and to me it's clear that man can't have a free will.

You might want to read this, I discuss there with an annihilationist

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=5099.msg58145#msg58145

btw feel welcome here, it's good that we defend our beliefs against other opinions and discussing with annihilationists is less emotional and polemic but more scholarly and polite than discussing with believers in everlasting hell.

[CHB]

Otherwise...why bother letting us go through this suffering to get to the place where we started??  Why not stop Satan from rebelling and Adam and Eve from falling?  Why put us all through it to finally fully and totally restore every intelligent being regardless of their choice (including Satan and demons and, etc.)?  That would negate free will.  God is answering the challenge to His sovereignty.  Only free will can allow real love.  Now if perfection always results in following God, then why did Satan and 1/3 of the angels rebel?  They were perfect originally.

Hi Lydiah,

Nice to meet you.  The way I see all of this is, God knows the beginning to the end. Everything was planned from before the world began. God allows things to be the way they are to teach us to eventually become like him. We are being created in his image. I don't think we are a finished product yet. We have had good and evil since the beginning. You would think man by now would have figured out on his own that good is the way to go but no such luck.

I have wondered about the same things that you point out and I am pretty sure we will not understand it all in this life time. We just have to know that God is in control of it all and trust him to give us what Jesus came to accomplish, release from sin and death.

In order for annihilation to be true, Christ would have had to remain dead or that punishment would not have been paid for anyone. Same goes for eternal torment. Christ is not burning in hell now, nor is he still dead. We will die as Christ died and be resurrected as Christ was because the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment or annihilation. We humans like to take credit for our own choosing as to whether we want to be saved or not but God didn't ask us whether we wanted Jesus to die for us or not. Thank the Lord we don't have a choice as to whether we are saved or not.

CHB

[HartleyDamboiseII]

k Friends, I have to say this.

JHAKH  has issues of sin in his life like we all are suppose to believe. I personally do not believe sin dwells in Christ...

I believe that at the Cross that Sin was over,{ ALL } sin. !

Why I have this belief is that in Christ Jesus there is no sin, and All things are in Christ after the Cross.

sins of the carnal nature is the same nature that Jesus took on when He became flesh, He will always be flesh forever or until every atom of "earth" no longer exist. If that is possible, so I made a comment that upset a member once of the hands that masturbate is Jesus' hands, and they thought that was perverted sounding. Well it is not. Hitler or a saint does what man calls sin. Now IF man don't sin because sin is done away fine. but then it is possible that JC sins, in us, through us only if sin still works in humans. I know that this sounds bad but sin """"IS""""" Transgression of the Law. And Law/Sin is no longer....


So lying, stealing, cheating, etc... is not sin because of the Holy Meaning of the word it self has done away with it's meaning...

Man dose not sin.   I know that 99.9999999 % of you've s wont buy into this thought but in my soul, Spirit and being, I know that when I do wrong it is me and man that is offended and not Our Father.

In-put is welcome but I still have taken 30 years to have this understanding come to me and I "think" it is here to stay. IN ME.

Lee Damboise II

[HartleyDamboiseII]

This is from a kind loving friend
Very Worth reading

The Veil
Deliverance, II
By Jan Antonsson
The Glory Road,
A Kingdom Highway
Given for the Saints of the world, November 8, 2009.
"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments
of men" (Matt. 15:9).
In last week's essay, I quoted our friend Pat Savas, who said that the most
insidious, most deadly addiction is religious addiction. This concept came to my
awareness when Lenny and I were working a codependency recovery program.
Drug and alcohol addiction causes great dysfunction in families, as any child of an
alcoholic or drug addict can tell you. It came to me that much of the neurotic
dysfunction which abounds in Christian families, even among those who do not
abuse their bodies with drugs or alcohol, can be attributed to religious addiction.
What is it? What causes it? What can be done to resolve it?
Jesus walked among Pharisees who were certainly plagued by religious addiction,
which I will describe as their thinking they could work their way to closeness
with God and count on their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as their
"ticket to ride" to heaven. They obsessively touted their own works as exemplary,
pointing out their religious superiority over non religious folks. An example
is the Pharisee who went up to the temple to pray and while there, spotted a
tax collector. He prayed, "'God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners,
unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week,
I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far off, would not
even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to
me a sinner!'" Jesus said about these men: I tell you, this man went down to
his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will
be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted" (Luke 18:10-14).
That spirit of the Pharisee is alive and well in churches today. I encountered
it right here in Neosho, in a Sunday School class I once attended. We were
discussing this verse, and a man sitting in front of me raised his hand and asked,
"Why can't I be proud that I'm not a sinner? I'm not!" His outburst caused
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me to raise my hand and remind us all that Jesus said if you look at a person with
lust in your heart, you have committed adultery already. I asked if there were
anyone there who had not violated this command? At that, they began to argue
about how long you'd have to look with lust to be guilty of adultery. The
man's wife said she thought it didn't mean a short look, but a long term one.
That was the last time I attended that class as God has not called me to argue.
What is behind this self righteous attitude? Perhaps it was pride in his own
accomplishments, either in keeping the commandments, or avoiding blatant sin,
but also there's the "VEIL" of law, which is still in place today, and may be the
heart of religious addiction. Here's Matthew's account of Jesus' death: "And Jesus
cried again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit. And behold, the curtain
of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and
the rocks were split;....When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping
watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled
with awe, and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!" (Matt. 27:50-51, 54).
The splitting of the VEIL between the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies
had symbolic significance for the Jews. Under Mosaic Law, that VEIL separated
the people from God, who met with Israel between the wings of the cherubim
over the Ark of the Covenant (Ex. 25:22; Num. 7:89). Only the High Priest
could enter the Most Holy Place, only once a year. Anyone else would die When
Jesus died, and the veil split, the spiritual Jews who had been looking for Messiah
to come, must have gasped, for the symbolism is unmistakable, powerful, and full
of hope. God is no longer behind the veil. He was out among men, evidenced by
the fact that "the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who
had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection
they went into the holy city and appeared to many" (Matt. 27:52-53).
Even the disciples, shocked and traumatized as they were, may have failed
to grasp the significance of the veil being torn, but we need to pay attention to it.
Obviously, God was NEVER confined within the Holy of Holies, no matter what
Moses taught them, but the idea symbolized God's choosing Israel as His elect in
the ancient world. He dwelt among them, above all other nations. The idea of
confining God in a box, a small space, persists today. Church doctrine has replicated
the idea almost from the first century. Anytime, you say God loves only
your church, and approves of only your doctrine, your worship, and your rituals,
you have made Him small enough to fit in the box you've created!
The idea of trying to fit God in a box is the thesis of J. B. Phillips' book
entitled, Your God Is Too Small, which I read long ago. The impression it made
on me, has been expanded by the Spirit over the ensuing years. As an example,
I've long been interested in what maintains the devotion to and growth of the
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Catholic Church. I stumbled across the EWTN Channel (Eternal Word Television
Network, the Catholic version of TBN). It's mission is to disseminate all
things Catholic to a world which they believe needs what they have to offer. I
sometimes check in on that channel just to see what they are "selling" that hour.
One of the most enigmatic programs, so far as I am concerned, stars Mother
Angelica and her nuns, saying the Rosary complete with Hail Marys and Our Fathers.
Mother Angelica is a sweet old dear, so fat that her face falls out of her
wimple on every side, but considered very wise and devout. She says her part of
the Hail Mary, usually reading the words, delivered in a monotone voice. Her
nuns do their part of the responsive reading in an equally monotonic voice.
The first time I watched the whole thing, I asked myself, "Self, why are you
watching this?" When I told Lenny what I had been doing, he immediately said,
"Why would you do that?"
"Beats me," I replied, and it really did. At the end of the 30 minute program,
they invite viewers to send money for their own DVD of mother, so they
can pray the Rosary at home with her. What do they get out of it? I wondered.
Why do they do it?
It is unscriptural to ask Mary, who is NOT the birth mother of God, but of
Jesus, to "pray for us sinners, now and in the hour of our death." Of course,
it is unscriptural to ask a priest rather than God to forgive one's sins, but that
doesn't stop them or lessen the appeal. The fact that Mother Angelica and the rest
of the nuns appear to be in a trance, resembling a narcotic induced stupor gave
me a clue, and reminded me that Lenin had dismissed religion as "the opiate of
the masses." Whatever I was witnessing certainly could be a prime example of a
phenomenon I've been interested in for decades: religious addiction.
This powerful addiction most certainly is NOT limited to Catholics. It can
be found among Mormons, Pentecostals, Charismatics, Baptists, and many other
groups, including Islam. When the rite, be it baptism, communion, prayer or Bible
study IS the link to God, when it compels you to do it, you have replaced the
Holy Spirit with man's works. Religion has replaced life in the Spirit!
An addiction may be defined as an over riding compulsion to ingest a substance
which blurs your cognitive mind and takes over your will, or to perform an
activity which does the same thing and takes you out of yourself. Most people do
know that drugs and alcohol are harmful to the body, and thus are not proud of
their compulsion to abuse their body with these substances.
By its very nature, religion is just the opposite. It appears to be good,
righteous, and helpful to our psyches and to enhance our relationship to God.
Nevertheless, it is the poisonous fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good
and Evil, which many still have not learned to recognize, confusing it with the
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fruit of the Tree of Life: Christ in us, the hope of glory. Failure to make this
distinction, causes people to attempt to put God in the box of their beliefs, and to
reduce Him to a kind of divine soft drink machine. Deposit the right amount of
fervor and devotion, pay the price of doing the ritual over and over, and wallah,
you have God on demand. It's very seductive, powerful, and oh, so deceptive.
This brings me back to the title of this essay, "The Veil." When Christ's
death resulted in the Temple Veil being torn in two, that ushered in God as Spirit
indwelling His children. It came to me lately, that religion with all its addictive
practices is an attempt by man to reweave the veil and hang it back in place.
"You cannot come to God except by us" is the message printed on this Veil.
Here's the description of the veil God commanded Moses to make: "And you
shall make a veil of blue and purple and scarlet stuff and fine twined linen; in
skilled work shall it be made, with cherubim; ...And you shall hang the veil
from the clasps, and bring the ark of the testimony in thither within the veil;
and the veil shall separate for you the holy place from the most holy" (Ex.
26:31-33). Religion has copied the idea, creating a curtain between God and
man which is lovely to look at, carefully and artistically made. Ugly things usually
do not attract people; so the more lavish and artistic the ritual, the rite, the
doctrine, or the concept, the more people are likely to come and participate.
Moses went to Pharaoh and demanded, "Let my people go." God has
given us a similar mandate: "What agreement has the temple of God with idols?
For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, "I will live in them and
move among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore
come out from them, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch
nothing unclean; then I will welcome you" (II Cor. 6:16-17).
When man puts his doctrine ahead of God, he is recreating the veil, a symbol
of the Law. Paul declared, "when they read the old covenant, that same veil
remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. Yes, to this day
whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their minds; but when a man turns to the
Lord the veil is removed" (II Cor. 3:14-16). Christ came to destroy the works of
the devil, including all the lovely veils man creates. I had asked what is religious
addiction, what causes it and what can be done about it. The answer is GOD. He
is the prime mover, the "active verb" in our lives: "For God consigned all men
to disobedience, that He may have mercy upon all" (Rom. 11:32).
Father, we thank You that You no longer dwell in tents or houses made of
gold, but in the hearts of your children. We rejoice that Christ came to set the
captives free, free from all our addictions and free from every veil that separates
us from You, our all powerful Father, Almighty God. Amen. Jan Antonsson
The Glory Road website: http://thegloryrd.com