Faith, works and .... ?

[WhiteWings]

Faith is clear to me.
Works still puzzles me because the Bible states good works can only come trough the spirit/faith.

Let's start with a few examples. All situations are identical besides the differences I mention.
a] Someone gives $50 a homeless person out of love. (religious love)
b] Someone gives $50 a homeless person because he was homeless once too. (just caring)
c] Someone gives $50 a homeless person because his friends are watching and it looks cool.
d] Someone gives $50 a homeless person because he wants to bribe God.

From the pov of the homeless person the works are identical.
I think it can be said the works are also identical for the person that gives the $50.
It's clear I think that no religious background is needed that the intention of the works is (very) different.
C and D are mostly selfish. (at least it looks that way)
B is a good person.
A is, oddly enough, Biblically speaking teh only person that did a good work.

Personally I have a strong feeling it's not that black or white.
I keep thinking about the verse that states that God has written the laws on the hearts. That verse isn't there just as a page filler.
So my thought is that works are driven by roughly 3 factors.
Spirit. Example a.
Heart. Example a and b.
Selfishnes. Examples b and c.

Thoughts....?

[Molly]

I think you have to first stop thinking about works as being about something so mundane as giving 50 dollars to a homeless person. :icon_jokercolor:

[WhiteWings]

It's just an example of works.
Or do you think works from a Biblical pov is something totally diffrent?
Revelation speaks about works when it give as an example 'you feed me'.
That $50 does feed.

So  :dontknow:

[Molly]

well, consider this, some of the most evil men are also the greatest philanthropists.

They have this idea that their evil is offset by doing good works.

So, they are feeding the poor that they created in the first place?

Works are about righteousness.  When a situation presents itself, do you act righteously?  And, situations present themselves all day long.

Righteousness can only come from Christ.

We see that Abraham believed God [faith] and that was accounted to him for righteousness.

So, works are based on faith.

[jabcat]

I believe works that are pleasing and acceptable to God are only those that are worked through an individual through the indwelling Holy Spirit - which comes from belief on Jesus for salvation through the faith given by God to believe.  This is a difficult topic, because I don't profess to have all the answers as to how this works exactly, and exactly how to tell which is which, i.e., what is me just trying to perform vs. the Holy Spirit enabling me to respond to God's working through me.  Been thinking about this earlier today, because as I've posted before, I'm a struggler.  I often try to "please" God by doing good things or living right, etc., rather than just responding to His leadership in my life.  I think I miss it a lot, but I also think He's growing me in this area.

Today I ran across the scripture where the 10 commandments were being shared, and as I understood, God told the people to build an altar to him out of earth.  He also told them that if they passed their tools over stone, as in using their own methods to create an altar, that they had then defiled it.  There's something in there, I believe, about a) obedience and b) response to the Spirit's leading rather than getting in our flesh and working righteousness that ends up being as filthy rags.

For me personally, I seem to experience this as I just respond to the Holy Spirit's nudging vs. making my plans, getting into OCD "overdoing" things, and end up struggling and being frustrated. 

I'm really just learning and working on this, I've been a "performer" (not as in 'pretender', but as in struggler) most of my life - so if this makes no sense, don't call me on it.  :bigGrin:.  Maybe instead, someone can share something that will help me move forward in this. 

God's blessing, James.

[jabcat]

P.S.  Grace is sufficient, God gives the faith to believe, He is the beginner and completer of our salvation, and http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7040.0 ...

Sometimes having the good sense and maturity to walk it out daily that way is another story, IMO. 

[Gab]

"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.'" (Matthew 15:17-20)

I think that the thing one must recognize is that works are entirely separate from the motivation behind them.  Why did Jesus preach not only doing good, but doing it in secret?  What matters is not so much what one does, but why that person does it, because it is what comes out of the heart that makes one unclean.

What do you think would have happened if Jesus had said, "Give $2 to the poor every day, and you will have aionion life"?  What would people do?  They would give $2 to the poor, and then say to themselves, "I have done my part."  Do you think they would even care about the poor person to whom they gave their money?  Of course not - it would simply be a chore to be undertaken as a ritual.  You see this every day with those who preach eternal torment: they tell people that they must do X, Y, and Z and then they will be saved, so what do people do?  They do X, Y, and Z, and that's it.  There is no love in their hearts; they merely go through motions that they believe will save their own hides, with nary a single thought in most of their heads regarding why they're doing any of this (beyond "to get saved").

People tend to try to do as little work as they possibly can, and this is why, in my view, Jesus used such strong hyperbole in telling people that they must sell everything they own and give it all to the poor.  Taken at face value, this command is obviously illogical, because if everyone in the world did that, then we would just have an endless transfer of money with not a single person actually making use of it.  The underlying message that I see, however, is that no matter how much one does, it is never "enough", because it is not for our sake that we must do it, but for others'.  No matter how much we do, there is always more that we can do that we have not yet done - so we must never look back and boast about what we have done, but rather we must always look forward and prepare for that which we have yet to do.  When we give money to the homeless, it ought never to be because we wish to feel righteous for having done so, but rather because we simply have an earnest desire in our heart to help them for no reason other than that we love them.

This is the core of why, in my view, the structure of the Biblical view of salvation is entirely separate from what one may do - if we do all these great things, but at the end of the day boast, "See all of these wonderful things I have done; surely I have a good place in heaven now," then our words have betrayed the true contents of our hearts and have made both us and our works unclean - filthy, even (cf. Isaiah 64:6).  But if we do things in secret, and if we expect no recompense at all either from God or from men, then and only then may our hearts receive good testimony.

[jabcat]

well, consider this, some of the most evil men are also the greatest philanthropists.

They have this idea that their evil is offset by doing good works.

So, they are feeding the poor that they created in the first place?

Works are about righteousness.  When a situation presents itself, do you act righteously?  And, situations present themselves all day long.

Righteousness can only come from Christ.

We see that Abraham believed God [faith] and that was accounted to him for righteousness.

So, works are based on faith.

I think this fits in with this -

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.  (I Cor 3)

[WhiteWings]

well, consider this, some of the most evil men are also the greatest philanthropists.

They have this idea that their evil is offset by doing good works.

That's catagory d]

Works are about righteousness.  When a situation presents itself, do you act righteously?  And, situations present themselves all day long.

That's a, b and because you wrote 'act' also c.

Righteousness can only come from Christ.

We see that Abraham believed God [faith] and that was accounted to him for righteousness.

So, works are based on faith.

That's not how I understand it. It feels like leaving out info/verses to reach an easy conclusion.

[WhiteWings]

I believe works that are pleasing and acceptable to God are only those that are worked through an individual through the indwelling Holy Spirit - which comes from belief on Jesus for salvation through the faith given by God to believe.

James,
What about catagory b] ?
That person gave 'with his heart' no other intentions than helping out. But the person is not religious. Maybe even a satanist.
Did only a] did good works?

This is a difficult topic, because I don't profess to have all the answers as to how this works exactly, and exactly how to tell which is which

For me too, but I feel strongly that the Bible doesn't teach only religious people can do anything good.

[Molly]

well, consider this, some of the most evil men are also the greatest philanthropists.

They have this idea that their evil is offset by doing good works.

So, they are feeding the poor that they created in the first place?

Works are about righteousness.  When a situation presents itself, do you act righteously?  And, situations present themselves all day long.

Righteousness can only come from Christ.

We see that Abraham believed God [faith] and that was accounted to him for righteousness.

So, works are based on faith.

I think this fits in with this -

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.  (I Cor 3)

Yes, that makes perfect sense, Jab.  Everything that is not of him will be removed.

[WhiteWings]

"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.'" (Matthew 15:17-20)

I think that the thing one must recognize is that works are entirely separate from the motivation behind them.

Can good motivation only come from the spirit?

I just don't believe people are either saints or devils. Many shades of gray.
God gave us all a spirit. A candle as Cardinal named it in another thread.
That spirit is good. Maybe it sometime leaks to the outside in even the ones that are not saints?
"....I judge them by the laws written on their heart..."

[Molly]

I just don't believe people are either saints or devils. Many shades of gray.
God gave us all a spirit. A candle as Cardinal named it in another thread.
That spirit is good. Maybe it sometime leaks to the outside in even the ones that are not saints?
"....I judge them by the laws written on their heart..."

Yes, I think to a certain extent that is true.  To the extent that it is true, the world would be a good place to live.  To the extent that it is not true, the world would be not such a great place to live.

So which is it?  Is it a great place to live or not?

And, that will give an indication of how well this theory works, because saints are rare.

Personally, wherever I see mercy, I thank God.


14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another..

--rom 2

[Gab]

Can good motivation only come from the spirit?

I just don't believe people are either saints or devils. Many shades of gray.
God gave us all a spirit. A candle as Cardinal named it in another thread.
That spirit is good. Maybe it sometime leaks to the outside in even the ones that are not saints?
"....I judge them by the laws written on their heart..."

Well, on one hand, I would answer yes, good motivation is always from the Spirit.

...On the other hand, I think it's well known by now that I tend to disagree with others with regards to the matter of whom is so affected.

[WhiteWings]

...On the other hand, I think it's well known by now that I tend to disagree with others with regards to the matter of whom is so affected.

I don't care about that. I listen to everybodies opions. More precisely where they base that opinion on.
Then I pick one (or none) that seems fit into the larger context.

Well, on one hand, I would answer yes, good motivation is always from the Spirit.

So that means that non-Christians, atheists, also can do good works.
They have zero Christian faith. (Group b)
So good works come from the spirit; faith possibly adds to it.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: There are different levels of works, WW, just like there are different levels of "tithing". Again, back to tabernacle pattern; outer court is works of a natural component ONLY. Like your example of giving away the $50. It could be as simple as sitting with a sick aunt till she recovers, or taking a pot of chicken soup to your neighbor.

But we are told the Holy Ghost does the works after Pentecost, which is the inner court realm of the tabernacle in pattern. The realm of the priesthood. And it is this realm that the works of the Spirit are seen, such as the laying on of hands bringing healing, or the Spirit speaking thru tongues or thru inspiration or revelation of the Word. My  :2c: Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

Thanks for the  :2c: I'm saving them for another $50  :winkgrin:

Ok I'll simplify it even more.
Can hardcore satan worshipper do good works?
Yes or No?

[sheila]

 my  :2c:

    all but one did it out of fear/love/God..one because he loved his brother as himself, one because he was in fear of God and tried to temper God's wrath against him.

  regarding the one who did it for the praise of men..he received his reward from men.. Jesus spoke of this type of display..blowing a trumpet to call attention to anything good you do.

  as far as the satan worshipper doing anything 'good'  can an evil tree bring forth 'good' fruit. those that call good evil and evil good promote confusion...by the same token those that worship God[supposedly] and do evil and call it good are in the same boat.

  due to the tokogae expierance we are in now..there is both evil and good in the same tree. The TOL clears up the matter..
the spirit son of God that is deceived by satan..knows not what manner of spirit he is of[ only God is good]

[sparrow]

I see it in simpler terms than most I guess. If it is done out of love...if it is LOVE, then yes it is a "good work". I absolutely think that atheists can do "good works" that will NOT be burned up like hay and stubble. We all know that good works can't save you, only faith in Christ saves. But I absolutely believe that God is at work in all hearts... whatever is love is OF God.

GOD IS LOVE. All love (agape love) is traced back to the source. God.
God is already in people's hearts, a lot of people just don't recognize Him for who He is yet.
That's the way I see it, at least.

I believe that there will be many that think "didn't I do this good thing in you name God?" and God will say "No.... you didn't do it in my name (in love), you did it out of fear, (or you did it out of thinking you will be rewarded, or you did it to be praised by men.) but you didn't do it in my name... Who am I? I am love. You didn't do these things out of love."

And then there will be many who will have an opposite experience. When they realize that the love that in was in their heart, that prompted them to do things for others in need.... that love was actually coming from God.

Both groups of people, those who profess to believe in God, but do a work for the wrongs reasons need to learn something. Just as those who don't believe in God but do a work for the right reasons...need to learn something.

To me, it's about learning.

We all need to learn certain things. Wherever you are at in life. Whatever you believe, God is going to eventually bring ALL into the knowledge of the Lord.

God looks at the heart. He knows why people do what they do. And He is faithful to teach ALL. Don't forget we are all His children.
Every knee will bow...

With that said, all this talk of works, etc. Works cannot save you. We all know that.
This isn't about works saving you. But works can teach you about the character of God. All love comes from Him. God uses many things to bring His children into truth. Again, let's not forget that we are ALL His children.... and HE is doing the ultimate good work in ALL of our hearts. Eventually... every knee will bow...
In His own way.
In His own time.

If someone does something absolutely selfless out of a pure love for another human being, no matter WHO that person is or what they presently believe about God, let's not call good "evil".

peace.

[WhiteWings]

I see it in simpler terms than most I guess. If it is done out of love...if it is LOVE, then yes it is a "good work". I absolutely think that atheists can do "good works" that will NOT be burned up like hay and stubble. We all know that good works can't save you, only faith in Christ saves. But I absolutely believe that God is at work in all hearts... whatever is love is OF God.

Thanks for the very straightforward answer Sparrow!
It's what I believe/think the Bible teaches.

So there are basicly 4 catagories:
1] Bad works without faith.
2] Bad works with faith. (the ones that will gnash their teeth)
3] Good works without faith. Even those people are not Christian the spirit is at work.
4] Good works with faith.

Can you agree with that Sparrow?

[Molly]

Madoff colleague Picower found dead at Palm Beach home
By KIMBERLY MILLER and JANE MUSGRAVE

Palm Beach Post Staff Writers

Sunday, October 25, 2009

WEST PALM BEACH — One of the leading players in the Bernard Madoff scandal was found dead Sunday in the swimming pool of his sprawling mansion on Palm Beach.

Billionaire Jeffry Picower, 67, whose reputation as a generous philanthropist was sullied when investigators claimed he was a beneficiary of Madoff's $65 billion Ponzi scheme, was found by his wife and housekeeper shortly after noon at the bottom of the pool at his $28 million South Ocean Boulevard estate.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/local_news/epaper/2009/10/25/1025picower.html

[sparrow]

I see it in simpler terms than most I guess. If it is done out of love...if it is LOVE, then yes it is a "good work". I absolutely think that atheists can do "good works" that will NOT be burned up like hay and stubble. We all know that good works can't save you, only faith in Christ saves. But I absolutely believe that God is at work in all hearts... whatever is love is OF God.

Thanks for the very straightforward answer Sparrow!
It's what I believe/think the Bible teaches.

So there are basicly 4 catagories:
1] Bad works without faith.
2] Bad works with faith. (the ones that will gnash their teeth)
3] Good works without faith. Even those people are not Christian the spirit is at work.
4] Good works with faith.

Can you agree with that Sparrow?

Yes. I know some will disagree with me on #3. Or some may think I'm saying that faith does not matter. But that is not true at all. Every knee will bow. Good works don't "save" you.
At the name of Jesus Christ, every knee will bow, all tongues will swear allegiance to...

But as far as learning, as far as God bringing all to the truth, in His own way, in His own time...
I believe that all four exist.
And I believe that it is all leading to us learning about God.
I pretty much think that's one of the main points (if not the main point!) of this world.
To learn who our Creator is.

Some atheists understand far more about the character of God than some Christians.
They just don't realize it yet.


peace...
well, I'm off to work...
be back later tonight.

:HeartThrob:

[Gab]

Well, on one hand, I would answer yes, good motivation is always from the Spirit.

So that means that non-Christians, atheists, also can do good works.
They have zero Christian faith. (Group b)
So good works come from the spirit; faith possibly adds to it.

That is basically correct.  I tend to go in the opposite direction as most Christians I see (not saying that as a slight against them, just stating for the record).  Most tend to go from "Does this person have the Spirit?" to "Is the motivation for this work good?"  I tend to go in the opposite direction, same as the way that I go from "Does this person love?" to "Does this person know God?" rather than the other way around.

I think this is more or less in line with what sparrow is saying.

[rosered]

  great post and questions WW !
   good  posting sparrow !
  much the way I see it too sis !!!  :HeartThrob:  rose

   an Honest heart

  always best ! 
the Word of God says we deceive our own hearts  , not someone else doing it    and al you do  is pointless .. :mblush:

Jam 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridles not his tongue, but deceives  his own heart, this man's religion [is] vain.

  seems the tongue /language  /speech  can cause more trouble  than anything  :mshock:  when it come to religion   yikes!

   :HeartThrob: