A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed." [Jer. 13:14; 48:10]

[jesushandsarekindhands]

"I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the Lord: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them. A curse on him who is lax in doing the Lord's work! A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed." [Jer. 13:14; 48:10]

Can anyone explain this?

There is another part in the Bible (which i cant find), but in my NIV (somewhere it says)

"Stone them to death! Be the first to stone them!".


Sometimes i just think about living a life of as much love as i can, and leaving the Bible far behind.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Is it just me, or can other reasoning minds just not accept this from coming from God?

If God told me to 'not keep my sword from bloodshed', i'd have a few things to say.

If he said "Stone them! Be the first too!" 
I'd be thinking 'isnt there a quicker less painful way to rid someone of their life? (if thats what you want) Rather than stone them?'  ...

...Stoning could go on for hours....Id have trouble stoning a rabbit never mind another human being.  Couldn't we just have mercy on the criminal and hope he repents?  After all most of the crimes they are being stoned for seem pretty trivial anyway.

Sometimes it seems (for moral reasons) i just want to let go of religion full stop. 
I just cant group these passages with an all loving God at all. 

[jesushandsarekindhands]

I know these parts of the Bible are hard to 'chew on',  But having answers to such things is a major faith increaser.  If anyone can shed some light id be very greatful, ive been looking online but most seem to avoid such things.

[rosered]

 

  Hi Marc ,
the Old covenant  God  and the New Covenant God  are   described very different indeed
  and many a ''bone of contention''   over this very fact and  has been even here at Tentmaker  over the years 
Jeremiah the ''weeping prophet '' is one of the most exposing of Gods   wrath in my opinion 

    when I read   in Jeremiah  somewhere where he says not to pray for these people  , I freaked out ..   wondering if God was  really this cruel ?
Jer 7:16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee. 
Jer 11:14 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear [them] in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble. 
Jer 14:11 Then said the LORD unto me, Pray not for this people for [their] good. 

  I  look into what  people he was referring to   and   over the years I have learned to just   ''take it all in '' and let the Spirit lead me in whatever direction  God wills 

   Jesus words  in the red letters always help me out in a bind ...
  I feel He is  the  leader of the New and better way /covenant , and thats  what I also desire  :HeartThrob:
 
I sure hope someone will give a good answer to you bro real soon on this  subject ..

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: This is how I see it and I've shared this before, but I had a dream/vision real as day, I was caught up by the Spirit in the spirit into the realm of the stars and witnessed balls of light with faces on them, that I knew were people coming into the earth to inhabit flesh bodies. We were one with Him from the foundation of the world, which means we pre-existed in spiritual bodies before we were lowered into this corruption of flesh.

So thru the oneness of the Spirit, I was able to "hear" their conversations as they were descending, and they were aware of who they were going to be individually to each other, and were discussing in detail their "assignments". The joy of the Lord hit me, as they were in joy totally over what they were being "called" to do, and all knew they were going to be as lively/living stones used to polish one another into the perfection like unto the Son of God from which they came.

So having said that, we are told that EVERYTHING that happened of the OT peoples were for a type and a shadow of spiritual realities found in the Truth that is Christ. We are also told no greater love has any man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. We are also told that THEY (those that came before us) can be made perfect or complete without us, the sons of God arising upon Mt. Zion.

So those that had those "parts" to play that were distasteful to say the least, I believe knew it beforehand, before they ever put on suits of flesh to act it out. I believe they played a part to display the "fractional" way God deals with re-assembling man that was fragmented in his being lowered into this corruption. So what He had to say was viable as teaching to those of us ordained to this hour, and his judgments are always to the flesh of man, that the spirit might be saved, which is why it says His judgments are unto victory.

So having said all this, if they laid down their lives for us to see the pattern, no wonder He is calling us to lay down our lives that THEY might be made perfect or complete in Christ. My  :2c: Blessings......                 

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Thanks for your replys everyone.
Ive been a little busy lately but im determined that once i have time im going to look into the passages i sent further and see what sense i can make of them from a scriptural point of view. 
What i really want to find out is exactly who God was speaking to at that time and who he was having killed etc.  I have to remember that God was preserving his people at that time and couldnt let anything stand in the way of his grand plans (to save mankind), i just find these passages hard sometimes at the best of times to accept.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Founds these commentaries if anyone is interested


Geneva Study Bible
{h} Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood.

(h) He shows that God would punish the Chaldeans if they did not destroy the Egyptians, and that with a courage, and calls this executing of his vengeance against his enemies, his work though the Chaldeans sought another end, Isa 10:11.

King James Translators' Notes

deceitfully: or, negligently

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

10. work of . Lord-the divinely appointed utter devastation of Moab. To represent how entirely this is God's will, a curse is pronounced on the Chaldeans, the instrument, if they do it negligently (Margin) or by halves (Jud 5:23); compare Saul's sin as to Amalek (1Sa 15:3, 9), and Ahab's as to Syria (1Ki 20:42).

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

48:1-13. The Chaldeans are to destroy the Moabites. We should be thankful that we are required to seek the salvation of men's lives, and the salvation of their souls, not to shed their blood; but we shall be the more without excuse if we do this pleasant work deceitfully. The cities shall be laid in ruins, and the country shall be wasted. There will be great sorrow. There will be great hurry. If any could give wings to sinners, still they could not fly out of the reach of Divine indignation. There are many who persist in unrepented iniquity, yet long enjoy outward prosperity. They had been long corrupt and unreformed, secure and sensual in prosperity. They have no changes of their peace and prosperity, therefore their hearts and lives are unchanged, Ps 55:19.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Matthew Henry's Whole Bible Commentary

Chapter 48

Moab is next set to the bar before Jeremiah the prophet, whom God has constituted judge over nations and kingdoms, from his mouth to receive its doom. Isaiah's predictions concerning Moab had had their accomplishment (we had the predictions Isa. 15 and 16 and the like Amos 2:1), and they were fulfilled when the Assyrians, under Salmanassar, invaded and distressed Moab. But this is a prophecy of the desolations of Moab by the Chaldeans, which were accomplished under Nebuzaradan, about five years after he had destroyed Jerusalem. Here is, I. The destruction foretold, that it should be great and general, should extend itself to all parts of the country (v. 1-6, 8, and again v. 21-25, 34), that spoilers should come upon them and force some to flee (v. 9), should carry many into captivity (v. 12, 46), that the enemy should come shortly (v. 16), come swiftly and surprise them (v. 40, 41), that he should make thorough work (v. 10) and lay the country quite waste, though it was very strong (v. 14, 15), that there should be no escaping (v. 42, 45), that this should force them to quit their idols (v. 13, 35) and put an end to all their joy (v. 33, 34), that their neighbours shall lament them (v. 17-19) and the prophet himself does (v. 31, 36, etc.). II. The causes of this destruction assigned; it was sin that brought this ruin upon them, their pride, and security, and carnal confidence (v. 7, 11, 14, 29), and their contempt of and enmity to God and his people (v. 26, 27, 30). III. A promise of the restoration of Moab (v. 48).

Verses 1-13

We may observe in these verses,

I. The author of Moab's destruction; it is the Lord of hosts, that has armies, all armies, at his command, and the God of Israel (v. 1), who will herein plead the cause of his Israel against a people that have always been vexatious to them, and will punish them now for the injuries done to Israel of old, though Israel was forbidden to meddle with them (Deu. 2:9), therefore the destruction of Moab is called the work of the Lord (v. 10), for it is he that pleads for Israel; and his work will exactly agree with his word, v. 8.

II. The instruments of it: Spoilers shall come (v. 8), shall come with a sword, a sword that shall pursue them, v. 2. "I will send unto him wanderers, such as come from afar, as if they were vagrants, or had missed their way, but they shall cause him to wander; they seem as wanderers themselves, but they shall make the Moabites to be really wanderers, some to flee and others to be carried into captivity." These destroyers stir up themselves to do execution; they have devised evil against Heshbon, one of the principal cities of Moab, and they aim at no less than the ruin of the kingdom: Come, and let us cut it off from being a nation (v. 2); nothing less will serve the turn of the invaders; they come, not to plunder it, but to ruin it. The prophet, in God's name, engages them to make thorough work of it (v. 10): Cursed be he that does the work of the Lord deceitfully, this bloody work, this destroying work; though it goes against the grain with men of compassion, yet it is the work of the Lord, and must not be done by the halves. The Chaldeans have it in charge, by a secret instinct (says Mr. Gataker), to destroy the Moabites, and therefore they must not spare, must not, out of foolish pity, keep back their sword from blood; they would thereby bring a sword, and a curse with it, upon themselves, as Saul did by sparing the Amalekites and Ahab by letting Benhadad go. Thy life shall go for his life. To this work is applied that general rule given to all that are employed in any service for God, Cursed by he that does the work of the Lord deceitfully or negligently, that pretends to do it, but does it not to purpose, makes a show of serving God's glory, but is really serving his own ends and carries on the work of the Lord no further than will suit his own purposes, or that is slothful in business for God and takes neither care nor pains to do it as it should be done, Mal. 1:14. Let not such deceive themselves, for God will not thus be mocked.

III. The woeful instances and effects of this destruction. The cities shall be laid in ruins; they shall be spoiled (v. 1) and cut down (v. 2); they shall be desolate (v. 9), without any to dwell therein; there shall be no houses to dwell in, or no people to dwell in them, or no safety and ease to those that would dwell in them. Every city shall be spoiled and no city shall escape. The strongest city shall not be able to secure itself against the enemies' power, nor shall the finest city be able to recommend itself to the enemies' pity and favour. The country also shall be wasted, the valley shall perish, and the plain be destroyed, v. 8. The corn and the flocks, which used to cover the plains and make the valleys rejoice, shall all be destroyed, eaten up, trodden down, or carried off. The most sacred persons shall not escape: The priests and princes shall go together into captivity. Nay, Chemosh, the god they worship, who, they hope, will protect them, shall share with them in the ruin; his temples shall be laid in ashes and his image carried away with the rest of the spoil. Now the consequence of all this will be, 1. Great shame and confusion: Kirjathaim is confounded, and Misgah is so. They shall be ashamed of the mighty boasts they have sometimes made of their cities: There shall be no more vaunting in Moab concerning Heshbon (so it might be read, v. 2); they shall no more boast of the strength of that city when the evil which is designed against it is brought upon it. Nor shall they any more boast of their gods (v. 13); they shall be ashamed of Chemosh (ashamed of all the prayers they have made to and all the confidence they put in that dunghill deity), as Israel was ashamed of Beth-el, of the golden calf they had at Beth-el, which they confided in as their protector, but were deceived in, for it was not able to save them from the Assyrians; nor shall Chemosh be able to save the Moabites from the Chaldeans. Note, Those that will not be convinced and made ashamed of the folly of their idolatry by the word of God shall be convinced and made ashamed of it by the judgments of God, when they shall find by woeful experience the utter inability of the gods they have served to do them any service. 2. There will be great sorrow; there is a voice of crying heard (v. 3) and the cry is nothing but spoiling and great destruction. Alas! alas! Moab is destroyed, v. 4. The great ones having quitted the cities to shift for their own safety, even the little ones have caused a cry to be heard, the meaner sort of people, or the little children, the innocent harmless ones, whose cries at such a time are the most piteous. Go up to the hills, go down to the valleys, and you meet with continual weeping (weeping with weeping); all are in tears; you meet none with dry eyes. Even the enemies have heard the cry, from whom it would have been policy to conceal it, for they will be animated and encouraged by it; but it is so great that it cannot be hid, 3. There will be great hurry; they will cry to one another, "Away, away! flee; save your lives (v. 6); shift for your own safety with all imaginable speed, though you escape as bare and naked as the heath, or grig, or dry shrub, in the wilderness; think not of carrying away any thing you have, for it may cost you your life to attempt it, Mt. 24:16-18. Take shelter, though it be in a barren wilderness, that you may have your lives for a prey. The danger will come suddenly and swiftly; and therefore give wings unto Moab (v. 9); that would be the greatest kindness you could do them; that is what they will call for, O that we had wings like a dove! for unless they have wings, and can fly, there will be no escaping."

IV. The sins for which God will now reckon with Moab, and which justify God in these severe proceedings against them. 1. It is because they have been secure, and have trusted in their wealth and strength, in their works and in their treasures, v. 7. They had taken a great deal of pains to fortify their cities and make large works about them, and to fill their exchequer and private coffers, so that they thought themselves in as good a posture for war as any people could be and that none durst invade them, and therefore set danger at defiance. They trusted in the abundance of their riches and strengthened themselves in their wickedness, Ps. 52:7. Now, for this reason, that they may have a sensible conviction of the vanity and folly of their carnal confidences, God will send an enemy that will master their works and rifle their treasures. Note, We forfeit the comfort of that creature which we repose that confidence in which should be reposed in God only. The reed will break that is leaned upon. 2. It is because they have not made a right improvement of the days of the peace and prosperity, v. 11. (1.) They had been long undisturbed: Moab has been at ease from his youth. It was an ancient kingdom before Israel was, and had enjoyed great tranquillity, though a small country and surrounded with potent neighbours. God's Israel were afflicted from their youth (Ps. 129:1, 2), but Moab at ease from his youth. He has not been emptied from vessel to vessel, has not known any troublesome weakening changes, but is as wine kept on the lees, and not racked or drawn off, by which it retains its strength and body. He has not been unsettled, nor any way made uneasy; he has not gone into captivity, as Israel have often done, and yet Moab is a wicked idolatrous nation, and one of the confederates against God's hidden ones, Ps. 83:3, 6. Note, There are many that persist in unrepented iniquity and yet enjoy uninterrupted prosperity. (2.) They had been as long corrupt and unreformed: He has settled on his lees; he has been secure and sensual in his prosperity, has rested in it, and fetched all the strength and life of the soul from it, as the wine from the lees. His taste remained in him, and his scent is not changed; he is still the same, as bad as ever he was. Note, While bad people are as happy as they used to be in the world it is no marvel if they are bad as they used to be. They have no changes of their peace and prosperity, therefore fear not God, their hearts and lives are unchanged, Ps. 55:19.

[peacemaker]

They will remove your nose and ears, consuming you by the harlotry of their fire:

"Put your sword back in its place; for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."

Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon punishment, or reward.

peacemaker

[sheila]

  Jesus said, at present ,my kingdom is not of this world,

  if it were, then[John 18;36] my servants would fight to

prevent my arrest by the jews,But now,my kingdom is from

another place.Now David's kingdom was of this world..a

nation specifically and uniquely set apart as God's chosen

people, a nation in the midst of many nations[a king given at

the request of the people to be like other nations around them]


  David could not build the house of the Lord because he was a

man of war.Warring  in the manner of flesh and blood..CAN

serve as an accurate shadow of the Kingdom of God, in that

spiritual warfare precedes and defends the Kingdom and

delivers into a peaceful reign. As David's warring was

prepartory in storing up provisions for Solomon to build with.

[there is a time for war and a time for peace]A peaceful reign

can be wrested and end by turning your heart from God


   
    All the scriptures is a story told of God as He speaks and

causes to come to pass His word and plan. As it unfolds

there are certain 'principalities" that would attempt to

corrupt the story line.


   For instance,Judah's  two sons were struck dead by God for

purposely spilling their seed on the ground,to prevent

conception by Tamar. Now, many men have done this very

thing..and were not struck dead immediately by God. What was

at issue was the promised seed of the line of Judah being

fulfilled as the Word of God come in flesh.What was being

messed with was the linage of the lion of the tribe of Judah


  Now, Tamar played the prostitute to eventually get that seed

and Judah had to admit 'she is more righteous than I'


  Now David commited adultery with Bathsheba and had her

huband killed, however,he wasn't struck dead by God

immediately..his son born to Bathsheba was. But the lineage

come down through Solomon by Bathsheba through another son.


  He is not a respector of persons, but He is a respector of HIS

FULILLED WORD AND ANY INTERFERENCE WITH IT'S

  FULFILLMENT IS SWIFTLY DEALT WITH.


  Some He deals with to serve as types and shadows for us..

  Annais and Sapphira..they are not the last ones to lie to the

Holy spirit..but their swift judgement serves as a type for

what awaits those that do. They served as an example for what

awaits lying spirits in opposition to the spirit of God. Annais

and Sapphira are delivered from that lying spirit and are fine,in

heaven. But any lying spirit messing with the fulfillment of

God's word through the Holy spirit will think twice about  that

maneuver again.


  The little children have not understood many of such things

and may judge our Father's actions  as very  harsh.


  Ecc 3  There is a time for everything,and a season for every

activity under heaven...a time for war,and a time for peace


  take a purse..don't take a purse....

     Sheila
 

[Nancy]

Hi there JHAK (Jesushandsarekind for short)

I agree with you that the bible does seem strange at times.  God is love. Period.

Didn't Christ rebuke the Pharisees because they searched the scriptures thinking that they would find eternal life through them!  Words kill but the Spirit gives life. Religious people do it today, following the commandments, struggling to not do this or that and only getting worse and having less peace.

I am coming to the conclusion that not the whole bible is divinely inspired, how could it be with 'God' telling people to do that to each other?
Maybe the Israelites saw 'God' through their own eyes.

There is a story that i read concerning a Sufi mystic who crossed out a line in the Koran because it didn't ring true to her. It was the line, 'Hate the devil'.  When someone questioned her, she said that she couldn't hate the devil or anyone, because she was so full of the love of God, so as that line didn't ring true to her, she crossed it out.

Godbless
Nancy

[reFORMer]

While the day will come when all of humanity will study war no more, for now, you'd have to agree there are armies in this world.  God will have the last word and He has his hand in every pot.  If men are cookin', God's a lookin'.  Our culture is very feminizing.  All the way from not allowing the use of masculine adjectives for humanity in general to virtually requiring males to keep their faces hairless like females.  We are taught subservience is kindness.  Standing up for what is right is seen as an unnecessary rocking the boat.  It's usually difficult to see beyond our cultural bias.

There are armies and God uses them even in today's world without their permission.  Believe it or not, there are Godly soldiers and even armies fighting just wars.  They're not as spiritually developed as Elijah or Paul; but, how advanced are you?  If I support His word that "You shall not kill" and do so with all my soul, heart, strength and mind, as He did say I should love Him (hence, His word,) then I am justifying self defense, defending my family and even country.  We very well could see Moslem terrorists making a big difference in how we live in this country.  That will make a lot of people come to stand against what is evil and others cringe in fear.  One brother prophesied that in public schools they would allow time for the Moslem children to pray, but not allow Christian children the same right because of fear.

God can look at life and death different than we do.  He slays and makes alive.  People can't do that.  He also knows how we all will be changed.  We mostly just see a few breaths here and then we're gone.  Look at how distorted some people's character can be.  Some raised by dogs, if not gotten to young enough, never learn to talk.  The bones in their legs are permanently fused from running around on their knees.  People spending a lifetime in prison are not allowed to develop in many ways.  Some are sold into sexual slavery as children.  We tend to see only this short sojourn in the veil of flesh.  God knows He will perfect, bring to completion what concerns us:  to be formed in the image and likeness of God.  That has to continue beyond the body of this humiliation or God is a liar.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen, Sheila and reFORMer.  :thumbsup: Blessings....

[peacemaker]

We tend to see only this short sojourn in the veil of flesh. God knows He will perfect, bring to completion what concerns us: to be formed in the image and likeness of God That has to continue beyond the body of this humiliation or God is a liar.

Thus, are we not to strive for the higher principle in this life?

"And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect."

Wars are the backdrop of this world which derive from the hearts of men, opposing the things of God; the fruit of the Spirit. If something is not good, right and just one-hundred percent of the time at the spiritual level than its not truth. As for defense and offense (operating out of fear) given the mind of men, those are two different things.

"Spiritual things run upward, ascending; not down."

It is the serpent, or spineless ego that goes down from the mind. Look at the word ego, spelled backwards (ogee), it is a double curve that meets at a given point, such as in the a classical framework of a doorway in century old churches. Where man has sat on the throne of his mind, promoting or exalting himself as the "old man" of authority.

Positional preference is a learned behavior, it's not about a separate entity (i.e. Moslem vs. Christianity or Satan for that matter)

A practical test of a belief is whether it has a universal application, as in "All the inhabitants" will learn righteousness because "All" have fallen short; letting the soul instruct the Spirit, instead of walking in the Spirit.

Jesus said, "Follow Me." (In Spirit and Truth)
He did Not say to follow the doctrines which are from the souls of men.

Blessed are ALL peacemakers in my humble opinion.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

  Jesus said, at present ,my kingdom is not of this world,

  if it were, then[John 18;36] my servants would fight to

prevent my arrest by the jews,But now,my kingdom is from

another place.Now David's kingdom was of this world..a

nation specifically and uniquely set apart as God's chosen

people, a nation in the midst of many nations[a king given at

the request of the people to be like other nations around them]


  David could not build the house of the Lord because he was a

man of war.Warring  in the manner of flesh and blood..CAN

serve as an accurate shadow of the Kingdom of God, in that

spiritual warfare precedes and defends the Kingdom and

delivers into a peaceful reign. As David's warring was

prepartory in storing up provisions for Solomon to build with.

[there is a time for war and a time for peace]A peaceful reign

can be wrested and end by turning your heart from God


  
    All the scriptures is a story told of God as He speaks and

causes to come to pass His word and plan. As it unfolds

there are certain 'principalities" that would attempt to

corrupt the story line.


   For instance,Judah's  two sons were struck dead by God for

purposely spilling their seed on the ground,to prevent

conception by Tamar. Now, many men have done this very

thing..and were not struck dead immediately by God. What was

at issue was the promised seed of the line of Judah being

fulfilled as the Word of God come in flesh.What was being

messed with was the linage of the lion of the tribe of Judah


  Now, Tamar played the prostitute to eventually get that seed

and Judah had to admit 'she is more righteous than I'


  Now David commited adultery with Bathsheba and had her

huband killed, however,he wasn't struck dead by God

immediately..his son born to Bathsheba was. But the lineage

come down through Solomon by Bathsheba through another son.


  He is not a respector of persons, but He is a respector of HIS

FULILLED WORD AND ANY INTERFERENCE WITH IT'S

  FULFILLMENT IS SWIFTLY DEALT WITH.


  Some He deals with to serve as types and shadows for us..

  Annais and Sapphira..they are not the last ones to lie to the

Holy spirit..but their swift judgement serves as a type for

what awaits those that do. They served as an example for what

awaits lying spirits in opposition to the spirit of God. Annais

and Sapphira are delivered from that lying spirit and are fine,in

heaven. But any lying spirit messing with the fulfillment of

God's word through the Holy spirit will think twice about  that

maneuver again.


  The little children have not understood many of such things

and may judge our Father's actions  as very  harsh.


  Ecc 3  There is a time for everything,and a season for every

activity under heaven...a time for war,and a time for peace


  take a purse..don't take a purse....

     Sheila
 

Sheila this was the answer i was looking for.
You explained how God was preserving his purpose and not letting anything stand in the way, and it made a lot of sense to me.  I cant thank you enough for your reply here.  I just have to have some doubts settled in my mind before i can press on, im afraid to go to deep with something that i might later regret, but at the same time i know God is a million times more moral than myself or anyone else, sometimes as a human living in this sometimes cruel and horrible planet i just need to hear it.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Hi there JHAK (Jesushandsarekind for short)

I agree with you that the bible does seem strange at times.  God is love. Period.

Didn't Christ rebuke the Pharisees because they searched the scriptures thinking that they would find eternal life through them!  Words kill but the Spirit gives life. Religious people do it today, following the commandments, struggling to not do this or that and only getting worse and having less peace.

I am coming to the conclusion that not the whole bible is divinely inspired, how could it be with 'God' telling people to do that to each other?
Maybe the Israelites saw 'God' through their own eyes.

There is a story that i read concerning a Sufi mystic who crossed out a line in the Koran because it didn't ring true to her. It was the line, 'Hate the devil'.  When someone questioned her, she said that she couldn't hate the devil or anyone, because she was so full of the love of God, so as that line didn't ring true to her, she crossed it out.

Godbless
Nancy

Nancy i understand but, to me, either the Bible is the word of God or it isn't, it's that simple to me.  I don't want to score parts of it out and add parts in to suit myself, because I would always know that I was lieing to myself, and always know that under that part i scored out it still said what it said.  Rather i look at these doubts and try to find answers to them, to help myself and also to help others i might come across with the same doubts.  Some of the answers on here has been great and it has satisfied me that God was doing what he had to do at a particular time in history to particular people to get us where we are now.  I am confident he used apparent 'bad' for good.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

While the day will come when all of humanity will study war no more, for now, you'd have to agree there are armies in this world.  God will have the last word and He has his hand in every pot.  If men are cookin', God's a lookin'.  Our culture is very feminizing.  All the way from not allowing the use of masculine adjectives for humanity in general to virtually requiring males to keep their faces hairless like females.  We are taught subservience is kindness.  Standing up for what is right is seen as an unnecessary rocking the boat.  It's usually difficult to see beyond our cultural bias.

There are armies and God uses them even in today's world without their permission.  Believe it or not, there are Godly soldiers and even armies fighting just wars.  They're not as spiritually developed as Elijah or Paul; but, how advanced are you?  If I support His word that "You shall not kill" and do so with all my soul, heart, strength and mind, as He did say I should love Him (hence, His word,) then I am justifying self defense, defending my family and even country.  We very well could see Moslem terrorists making a big difference in how we live in this country.  That will make a lot of people come to stand against what is evil and others cringe in fear.  One brother prophesied that in public schools they would allow time for the Moslem children to pray, but not allow Christian children the same right because of fear.

God can look at life and death different than we do.  He slays and makes alive.  People can't do that.  He also knows how we all will be changed.  We mostly just see a few breaths here and then we're gone.  Look at how distorted some people's character can be.  Some raised by dogs, if not gotten to young enough, never learn to talk.  The bones in their legs are permanently fused from running around on their knees.  People spending a lifetime in prison are not allowed to develop in many ways.  Some are sold into sexual slavery as children.  We tend to see only this short sojourn in the veil of flesh.  God knows He will perfect, bring to completion what concerns us:  to be formed in the image and likeness of God.  That has to continue beyond the body of this humiliation or God is a liar.

Cutting, slicing words here Reformer, and i fully agree.  God is doing whats best for everyone, whether anyone realizes it or not.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

We tend to see only this short sojourn in the veil of flesh. God knows He will perfect, bring to completion what concerns us: to be formed in the image and likeness of God That has to continue beyond the body of this humiliation or God is a liar.

Thus, are we not to strive for the higher principle in this life?

"And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect."

Wars are the backdrop of this world which derive from the hearts of men, opposing the things of God; the fruit of the Spirit. If something is not good, right and just one-hundred percent of the time at the spiritual level than its not truth. As for defense and offense (operating out of fear) given the mind of men, those are two different things.

"Spiritual things run upward, ascending; not down."

It is the serpent, or spineless ego that goes down from the mind. Look at the word ego, spelled backwards (ogee), it is a double curve that meets at a given point, such as in the a classical framework of a doorway in century old churches. Where man has sat on the throne of his mind, promoting or exalting himself as the "old man" of authority.

Positional preference is a learned behavior, it's not about a separate entity (i.e. Moslem vs. Christianity or Satan for that matter)

A practical test of a belief is whether it has a universal application, as in "All the inhabitants" will learn righteousness because "All" have fallen short; letting the soul instruct the Spirit, instead of walking in the Spirit.

Jesus said, "Follow Me." (In Spirit and Truth)
He did Not say to follow the doctrines which are from the souls of men.

Blessed are ALL peacemakers in my humble opinion.

Peacemaker thanks for taking the time to respond to my post, it was very helpful.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

I really think that perhaps i have been guilty here of taking words out of context...Just showing a passage of scripture that seems pretty nasty but without reading into the full story.

I have said things in my life that were taken the wrong way, or 'taken out of context' or just not understood by people.
Thats why i believe i have to have more patience that when i come across one of these passages i dont like i have to just sit back and say
"Ok, well this cant be bad as it appears because God is love, lets just chill out and look at the logic and find out as much about this passage as i can before i make a judgement on it".

Just the other day i was talking about my illness (depression) and i said to someone "Im glad i have it".
They didnt understand what i meant at first.  How could i be glad i was so miserable i couldnt even bring myself to speak at times?
What i meant was that it humbled me and made me a better person...I like myself more now, and i appreciate and love others more as a result of the illness.  The illness will (is) passing and im learning a lot from it.  If i had just gone on the way i had before without suffering i wouldnt have learnt a lot of things i have learned lately and would have been miserable my whole life.  At least this way i get to hit rock bottom, and as you know when your flat on your back the only way to look is up....Or when your down on your knees, all you can do is pray.

Thats a good thing for me.  Even Jesus had to suffer in the body.
Paul says he who suffers in the body is done with sin.
I hope i will be too, because sin almost destroyed me, but God pulled me out, slapped me around a bit (and still is), and knocked some sense into me, and i love him for it because to me its evident he cared enough to help, although admittedly it doesnt feel like help sometimes, but I feel i know him pretty well and trust that this is for my own good.

[sheila]

Amen! God's hands

  Sometimes He 'dungs' us to  increase fruitfulness.

   Luke 13;6 -9

   v8 Sir,the man replied,'leave it alone for one more year,and I'll dig around it and fertilize it.If it bears fruit next year,fine! If not,then cut it down."

   I was afflicted also..hemmed in....and it resulted in much
  spiritual growth.....sometimes when surrounded by great suffering and evil..it makes us turn to God in a way we wouldn't have,otherwise.

   Psalms 119;71,75 

   It was good for me to be afflicted so that I might learn your decrees

   I know,O'Lord, that your laws are righteous, and in faithfulness you have afflicted me.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I have lived most all of my life in a "dung pile", waiting for the fullness of joy that comes in the morning. Without it, I would have never pressed in to see His face/nature.

Glad you are seeing a glimpse of His sovereignty, Marc. It will serve you well. Blessings guys.....

[sheila]

 Oh yes!  I can relate.. :thumbsup:

[Beloved Servant]

Remember Job who realized the strength that comes from adversity as well as the satisfaction that comes from God's blessing — and with NO HEDGE!

[Nancy]

hi there,

I'm not disagreeing that ALL things happen for a purpose and usually at times of crisis, people realise what is important in life.  So if anything brings you closer to God, it is a good thing.
But i'm starting to believe that as God is within us at all times, surely it is WE who are resisting God blessings, not the other way round.
As reFORMer says, man allows the ego to be king and it believes God has enemies that need to be conquered.  How could God have any enemies?

But jesushandsarekindhands, everybody believes that their scriptures are the right ones and that they are divinely inspired and i personally believe that all scriptures have come from the divine, but why this insistence that only your particular belief system is the right one.
Truth is truth and God doesn't change with a particular belief.  He can't!
But i don't need the bible to be perfect as i can look at nature and within to know what God is and what He is not.

Godbless
Nancy

[Molly]

How could God have any enemies?

God says he has enemies.


7The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.

8But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.

9What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

--Nahum 1