Hello angry Christians.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Watch what famous atheist Pat Condell says about God and the Bible.

I have always respected this mans views as I find him to be a very honest and educated man and I used to think very similar to him.

Note how much he is against Eternal Torment and against Christians who say he is going to hell for not believing. 

Notice how he 'sides' with Jesus at the end of the video and says that most Christians are nothing like Jesus.
This man (and many others) could have been a great Christian had it not been for all the lies, hate, doctrines and other 'crap' out there that confused him (in my opinion).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atTSwau9fwM&feature=player_profilepage

[jfraysse]

I agree with you, Bro! :thumbsup:

I like Pat.  He quickly summaries the most vile aspects of Orthodox Christian Dogma.  I think all believers need to seriously consider the points he makes and not just regurgitate what they have been taught to believe as True. :HeartThrob:

[jesushandsarekindhands]

I agree with you, Bro! :thumbsup:

I like Pat.  He quickly summaries the most vile aspects of Orthodox Christian Dogma.  I think all believers need to seriously consider the points he makes and not just regurgitate what they have been taught to believe as True. :HeartThrob:

I think its really sad that Pat and other honest athiests may never know Jesus in this life, all because believers didnt deliver the gospel properly.  Pat is obviously well versed on scripture, so he has obviously (whether he admits it or not) really looked into it and perhaps tried to follow Christ.
I find him more Christ-like than many 'Christians' i know.

Oh sure Pat can drivel on at times and one can see that he is determined to complely 'deny' anything to do with the Bible altogether (because he has been put off so much), but all i see when i look at his videos is a good man, who will probably never accept Jesus in this life, all because of the traditional churches 'believe or burn in hell forever while me and God laugh at you' (but God loves you) doctrine.

My total sympathies to this man.

[Andromeda_Organa]

I respectfully disagree. I don't agree with that man on Christianity, but I do agree with him on Islam. I think that he is  closed to the Bible and Gospel as many atheists are. Sorry to disagree. *dodges bricks*

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Maybe it would help to see more Christians exposing the hypocracy.
ETers discredit Pat automatically because he's atheist.
Paul wrote in one place, "if any one is a believer, let him know that I too am a believer."

You have to be saved in order to have ANY audience from an ETer, otherwise they just discredit you with, "I can discern all things because I am of the Spirit, and you are not." REAL arrogant stuff....

Love to all,
Brian

[WhiteWings]

Italy: Jesus banned Legion to a herd of swine. I guess you have your answer now  :pointlaugh:

(Mark 5:1-20)

[jfraysse]

Maybe it would help to see more Christians exposing the hypocracy.
ETers discredit Pat automatically because he's atheist.
Paul wrote in one place, "if any one is a believer, let him know that I too am a believer."

You have to be saved in order to have ANY audience from an ETer, otherwise they just discredit you with, "I can discern all things because I am of the Spirit, and you are not." REAL arrogant stuff....

Love to all,
Brian

Excellent points, Brian!  :thumbsup::boyheart:

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Hi Jfraysse,
I was happy to see your post and felt a desire to respond.
In some way I think this is a part of evangelism and ET core beliefs that rarely get touched on, perhaps because the unbelievers don't see it and believers either support it or don't call others on it.

It's, I believe, a deep-seated problem in the psyche of the ETer: "Paul said we will judge the world and angels" so, by-golly, I may as well get down to business and start judging people!
And the world gets angry (because NO one likes to be judged by others)..
and the ETers respond, ahh! the wrath of the ungodly! AND THEY'RE HAPPY ABOUT IT!



I really feel emotional about this one..

[jfraysse]

Hey Brother Brian!  I'm emotional about it too. 

The bottomline for me is that I would NOT want anyone to Love me because they know I would cause them insufferable pain forever if they didn't. :mshock:  The God who changed my Life 33 years ago is light-years away from this concept. 

Something is definitely wrong with the Orthodox Evangelical Message and the unbelieving world "sees" right through it.  Too bad most of Christendom doesn't. :sigh:

In His Love, John :HeartThrob:

[Gab]

Maybe it would help to see more Christians exposing the hypocracy.
ETers discredit Pat automatically because he's atheist.
Paul wrote in one place, "if any one is a believer, let him know that I too am a believer."

You have to be saved in order to have ANY audience from an ETer, otherwise they just discredit you with, "I can discern all things because I am of the Spirit, and you are not." REAL arrogant stuff....

Love to all,
Brian

I've talked to ET adherents.  They still pulled out the "I have the Holy Spirit; you don't" card on me.  How did they know?  Because I didn't adhere to ET, of course. :laughing7:

Circular reasoning at its finest...

[jfraysse]

I've talked to ET adherents.  They still pulled out the "I have the Holy Spirit; you don't" card on me.  How did they know?  Because I didn't adhere to ET, of course. :laughing7:

Circular reasoning at its finest...

Yep, I get that all the time too, Gab.  And I'm NOT a Christian is another one.  :sigh: This label I have accepted, so I'm just a Follower of Jesus (FoJ?). :bigGrin:

In His Love, John :HeartThrob:

[Raggedy Anne]

I think he sounds like an 'evangelical' atheist and this particular video is sneaky in the way the fellow tries to sound like a nice ol' chap, but blatantly denies that Jesus ever existed.    I'm biased against atheists because most of them that I'm personally acquainted with are very arrogant and mean spirited.   The atheists that don't bother me are the ones who are not obsessed with teaching others that God is not real.

Anne

[Gab]

Yep, I get that all the time too, Gab.  And I'm NOT a Christian is another one.  :sigh: This label I have accepted, so I'm just a Follower of Jesus (FoJ?). :bigGrin:

In His Love, John :HeartThrob:

Yeah, I understand completely, and I've had that too.  I've never particularly cared about what I'm called - as I've said on another occasion, if someone asks me whether I'm a Christian, I'll tell them that I consider myself one, but that that is an exercise best left to the reader.  If the fact that I love my fellow man too much makes me no longer able to be a Christian, then so be it.  Jesus never called his faithful followers Christians, but they seemed good enough for him. :wink2:

[jabcat]

I think he sounds like an 'evangelical' atheist and this particular video is sneaky in the way the fellow tries to sound like a nice ol' chap, but blatantly denies that Jesus ever existed.    I'm biased against atheists because most of them that I'm personally acquainted with are very arrogant and mean spirited.   The atheists that don't bother me are the ones who are not obsessed with teaching others that God is not real.

Anne

I hear you Anne.  I could take about 30 seconds of him...got a pretty bad feeling.  We should love him and not be angry with him, but unless there's some good that can come out of it, I prefer to not hear people blaspheme. 

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.  2 John 1:7-11

[whyiloveitaly.com]

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed

Jabcat,
I see what you mean brother, it's just that verses like this are just what ETers use to "show how much they love sinners and not the sin".. by not associating with them at all!

It seems to me here that Paul was not seeing things as Jesus sees them.
I tend to believe that these verses are somehow "inferior" to the ones that talk about NOT judging people and doing good even to those who hate us.
What do you think?

Love to all,
Brian

[Gab]

I hear you Anne.  I could take about 30 seconds of him...got a pretty bad feeling.  We should love him and not be angry with him, but unless there's some good that can come out of it, I prefer to not hear people blaspheme. 

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.  2 John 1:7-11

Mmm, to be honest, I have grave discomfort with the interpretation of that passage as to say that we are not to associate with or be friendly towards people whose only crime is the possession of doubts regarding the divinity or existence of Christ or such like.  The ones whom we are not to welcome into our house are those who are (literally translated from the Greek) "coming toward you while not carrying this didache (of the Christ)".  Didache here refers to teachings, in the sense of teachings concerning a topic or topics.  In other words, the ones whom we are not to welcome into our house are those who do not adhere to what Jesus taught during his time on Earth.

One may ask: just what did he teach?  Well, we're told that only a few verses back:

"And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love." (2 John 1:6, emph. added)

In addition to that, the translation into "neither bid him God speed" is not one I would consider satisfactory.  The instruction here in the Greek is kai chairein auto me legete, which literally translates to "and to-be-rejoicing to him no you-be-saying" - or, in more readable phrasing, "and do not greet him joyously".  The word chairein (root chairo) is used almost exclusively to refer to joy, jubilation, gladness, or when directed at a person, a joyous and reverent greeting.  So this is really saying not to rejoice at this person's presence.

I hope I'm not starting to sound like a broken record, but as before I really see something different in here than the standard interpretation of the text.  Considering the people whom Jesus tended to spend time with, I would find it difficult to believe that we are being instructed not to associate with those who do not believe.  Rather, I believe, all things considered, that this is saying that we are not to joyously embrace - and thereby encourage and regard as desirable - hearts which have none of the love that Jesus intended and compelled us to hold.

Just my two cents on the matter, so to speak.

[WhiteWings]

Mmm, to be honest, I have grave discomfort with the interpretation of that passage as to say that we are not to associate with or be friendly towards people whose only crime is the possession of doubts regarding the divinity or existence of Christ or such like.

I don't know there is such a distinction in English but in Dutch there is a difference between being associated with someone/group or spend time with that person/group. (depents a bit on the context)
Example:
A judge in a courtroom spends time with mafia members but he's not associated with them.
But if that same judge is seen spending time outside the courtroom with the maffia he quickly will get associated with them. Then associated means: be one of them. Especially if the judge takes bribes.

Seen from that perspective I think it's fine Christians spend time with none Christians but they will get associated with them if they start attending to a serivice in a mosque of satans church. Or generally be part of none Christian customs.

[Gab]

Mmm, to be honest, I have grave discomfort with the interpretation of that passage as to say that we are not to associate with or be friendly towards people whose only crime is the possession of doubts regarding the divinity or existence of Christ or such like.

I don't know there is such a distinction in English but in Dutch there is a difference between being associated with someone/group or spend time with that person/group. (depents a bit on the context)
Example:
A judge in a courtroom spends time with mafia members but he's not associated with them.
But if that same judge is seen spending time outside the courtroom with the maffia he quickly will get associated with them. Then associated means: be one of them. Especially if the judge takes bribes.

Seen from that perspective I think it's fine Christians spend time with none Christians but they will get associated with them if they start attending to a serivice in a mosque of satans church. Or generally be part of none Christian customs.

I suppose it depends on how one interprets the Greek word for "house" - it's oikian, which can mean "house" in terms of the structure itself, but it can also refer to the inhabitants of that house.  So I suppose one interpretation of that could be to say that you should not welcome that person into your house as a permanent member, which would seem to me to be a much less strong (and more sensical, in my view) command.  Although, even then, that raises the question: if you have a son or daughter who turns out to be a non-Christian, are you supposed to eject that person from your household?  I would hope not.

I have however heard that verse being used before (among others) to support the doctrine that Christians are not to give non-Christians any warmth or charity whatsoever, and are to address them only with 10-foot conversion poles... which is a doctrine that I personally cannot abide by.

[WhiteWings]

I have however heard that verse being used before (among others) to support the doctrine that Christians are not to give non-Christians any warmth or charity whatsoever, and are to address them only with 10-foot conversion poles... which is a doctrine that I personally cannot abide by.

So we should rewrite some part of the Bible into "...love your Christian neighbour as...."

I suppose it depends on how one interprets the Greek word for "house" - it's oikian, which can mean "house" in terms of the structure itself, but it can also refer to the inhabitants of that house.

Can it also mean for example a whole tribe?

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Hi its ok to disagree people, i wont throw bricks lol!
I just sympathize with Pat because Ive been there, and one cant help but think that with all his rantings about religions that he is seeking God whether he admits it or not.  I pray that he will find him.

[Andromeda_Organa]

I think he sounds like an 'evangelical' atheist and this particular video is sneaky in the way the fellow tries to sound like a nice ol' chap, but blatantly denies that Jesus ever existed.    I'm biased against atheists because most of them that I'm personally acquainted with are very arrogant and mean spirited.   The atheists that don't bother me are the ones who are not obsessed with teaching others that God is not real.

Anne

I agree.

[jfraysse]

Hey Brother Gab:  Excellent exegesis of 2 John 1:17-11!  Amen, Brother! :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Another verse which I find in the Amplified quite curious (not in a good way) is 1John 3:15---
Anyone who hates (abominates, detests) his brother [in Christ] is [at heart] a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding ([k]persevering) within him.

So another words, if you hate your NON-Christian brother, you are NOT a murderer.

Another example, again from our friends at the Amplified: ch4:20-21---

If anyone says, I love God, and hates (detests, abominates) his brother [in Christ], he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, Whom he has not seen.
21And this command (charge, order, injunction) we have from Him: that he who loves God shall love his brother [believer] also.

So here we see that it's OK for believers to NOT love their unbelieving brother.

Am I missing something here? Or is this fuel for the ET (bigot) fire?

ANY help clarifying these verses above would be GREATLY appreciated..

Brian

[jabcat]

Considering the people whom Jesus tended to spend time with, I would find it difficult to believe that we are being instructed not to associate with those who do not believe. 

I personally said if there's not some hope of good coming from it, spending my time listening to people deny Jesus, trying to win converts to that way of thinking, well, I've just got better things to do with my time.  I believe Jesus interacted with those folks to make a difference in their lives.  Just sitting and listening in on someone else's "bully pulpit" is just what I'd probably prefer to not do if I have a good choice...

"whatsoever things are pure, honest, of good report, etc...think on these things".

I also said we are to love him.  I do believe the scripture is talking about more than love (though love is always present).  I see scripture teaching pretty clearly that if any man outright denies Jesus Christ's existance in the flesh (and especially teaches others so) that that is the spirit of anti-Christ.

My understanding, James.

[jfraysse]

Hey Brian: 1 John was written to Believers about their relationships to one another.  IMHO, I don't think it follows "that it's OK for believers to NOT love their unbelieving brother."  Unbelievers are NOT being addressed here in my opinion. :2c:

Clearly, the parable of the Good Samaritan is about Loving and ministering to others who are NOT like you and this includes those who don't believe as you do. :thumbsup:

BUT, I also agree with James (Jabcat) if someone is going to actively attack, revile and deny Jesus to your face, as in some parts of this video, I don't think we are under any obligation to tolerate it.  Jesus NEVER went anywhere He was not wanted.  He commanded His disciples to do the same and I don't think we should either.

I said that I liked Pat.  I didn't say that I agreed with everything he said nor his attitude – I overlook these as typical atheistic rhetoric.  I like the points and challenges he brings to Orthodoxy.  I think many are valid and should give caring and thoughtful Christians reason to calmly and logically re-evaluate what they were taught as true, especially if they were exposed to Christian Dogmas as children – ET is on the Top of the List.

In His Love, John :HeartThrob: