it will NOT be forgiven?

[NinjaWizards777]

Someone had asked me about luke 12 and how it related to UR recently but I didnt feel my answer was very good, particulary with this verse

Luk 12:10  "and every one whoever shall say a word to the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven to him, but to him who to the Holy Spirit did speak evil, it shall not be forgiven."

now granted, it doesnt say it will never be forgiven(though in the WNT it actually says "will never obtain forgiveness" but it still doesnt scream UR to me. What do you think?

[WhiteWings]

If I drive to fast the police officer won't forgive me either. Then I have to pay the fine to the last cent.
No eternal torture.

Plus

Matthew 12:32  Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

And:
http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/savior/unpardonable.html
http://myth-one.com/chapter_10.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/savior/unpardonable.html
http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/unpardon.htm
http://www.oxleigh.freeserve.co.uk/wp48.htm
http://afirstnewssource.net/sermons/MacDonald/ItShallNotBeForgiven.htm

[NinjaWizards777]

makes sense. no forgiveness in the due punishment sense, not in the "I dont love you anymore because you did that so now you must forever burn" sense. lol

[jabcat]

If I drive to fast the police officer won't forgive me either. Then I have to pay the fine to the last cent.
No eternal torture.

Plus

Matthew 12:32  Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

:goodpost:

[Dallas]

Luk 12:10  "and every one whoever shall say a word to the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven to him, but to him who to the Holy Spirit did speak evil, it shall not be forgiven."

This is just old covenant legal stipulation. While under the law the Jew has many rules to observe, this is just onther one that disqualifies them. Just as the ten commandments Jesus lays out even more rules to disqualify the Jew.


Matthew 12:32  Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.



Let me ask you this. How many times does it say all sins are forgiven? In-numerable right... yet only two that disagree?

That should raise eyebrows to what maybe the context, the translation, and peoples interpretation.

[Lupac]

I've read those, but I am still worried. I'm worried I have committed it, and I'll never be forgiven.  :Mcry:  Like, I said in my welcome topic, I have, really really bad obsessive compulsive disorder. It used to be all physical, like checking light switches and stuff, but after that wore off, it got to be all mental. What would happen, I'd get a thought in my head, like "**** (you know the word.) the Holy Spirit", and it would upset me so badly, I'd be praying for hours, asking for forgiveness. And then my doctor would tell me to repeat a thought such as that to myself, out loud, until it no longer bothered me. I had a lot of horrible thoughts over the year that came and went, but the only one I was really worried was stuff about the Holy Spirit. I am worried even now, and I have asked for forgiveness from God. But I'm still worried. Please help. Thanks.

[IceDash]

I've read those, but I am still worried. I'm worried I have committed it, and I'll never be forgiven.  :Mcry:  Like, I said in my welcome topic, I have, really really bad obsessive compulsive disorder. It used to be all physical, like checking light switches and stuff, but after that wore off, it got to be all mental. What would happen, I'd get a thought in my head, like "**** (you know the word.) the Holy Spirit", and it would upset me so badly, I'd be praying for hours, asking for forgiveness. And then my doctor would tell me to repeat a thought such as that to myself, out loud, until it no longer bothered me. I had a lot of horrible thoughts over the year that came and went, but the only one I was really worried was stuff about the Holy Spirit. I am worried even now, and I have asked for forgiveness from God. But I'm still worried. Please help. Thanks.

I did that to the holy spirit a long time agos, but I bet God knew I am going to do that, don't worry, He knew before we was born.

[jabcat]

Lupac, this is from J. Preston Eby.  I think it can be helpful to you.  Soak it in.  Dwell on these things.

"It is most regrettable that many Bible translators have been careless in their translation of words that concern the ages. The common thought seems to have been that any age following this present age must be identical with eternity, which, of course, is gross error, and we get ourselves into all manner of confusion by thinking that such is the case. For instance, according to the King James version Jesus, speaking of the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, is clearly quoted as saying, "He that blasphemes the Holy Ghost has never forgiveness" (Mk. 3:29). Because of this faulty rendering we have concocted the fallacious notion of an unpardonable sin. But the Emphatic Diaglott translates the passage correctly thus: "Whoever may blaspheme the Holy Spirit has no forgiveness to the age, but is exposed to aionian (age-lasting) judgment." Likewise also the passage in Mat. 12:32...... Whosoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." The word world here, as the margin of your Bible will probably indicate, is translated from the Greek word AION, which means age or a period of time. See also Young's Concordance. Hence the translation should be, "It shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in the coming age" (Diaglott).


Jesus was born in the age of law. Therefore, when He spoke of this age, He was speaking of the age of law, the age to come being the Church age in which we now live.


God's precious people, saturated and literally "oozing" with the false doctrines of the harlot Church systems have long viewed God's judgments as a vindictive action prompted by a motive for revenge and supported by a tumultuous wrath that must be pacified. NOT SO! Such is a gross caricature of our God! His mercy and grace are super-abundant, His mercy endures to all ages, and though He finds it necessary to chasten, His wisdom and righteousness produce a just and pure chastisement conditioned to correct the situation, and bring forth a creature prepared to respond to the delivering and redeeming power of God. ALL OF GOD'S JUDGMENTS ARE CORRECTIVE IN NATURE, conceived in His wisdom, motivated by His love, administered by His power, and used to work out the divine purpose, into our good, and unto His praise!

Blessings, James.

[Cardinal]

I've read those, but I am still worried. I'm worried I have committed it, and I'll never be forgiven.  :Mcry:  Like, I said in my welcome topic, I have, really really bad obsessive compulsive disorder. It used to be all physical, like checking light switches and stuff, but after that wore off, it got to be all mental. What would happen, I'd get a thought in my head, like "**** (you know the word.) the Holy Spirit", and it would upset me so badly, I'd be praying for hours, asking for forgiveness. And then my doctor would tell me to repeat a thought such as that to myself, out loud, until it no longer bothered me. I had a lot of horrible thoughts over the year that came and went, but the only one I was really worried was stuff about the Holy Spirit. I am worried even now, and I have asked for forgiveness from God. But I'm still worried. Please help. Thanks.

:cloud9: Lupac, you said you had a thought. Obviously this was not your thought, or you wouldn't have been upset by it and worried about it. The enemy of our soul speaks to us in thoughts. He spoke to Jesus in the wilderness, and the servant (us) is not greater than the master (Him). So if he spoke to Jesus, then you know he speaks to us.

The only way to combat that is with the helmet of salvation that covers our head and the renewing of our minds with the washing of the Word. Jesus spoke the Word to him. You can speak the Word to him, too. I actually literally did this early in my walk as I attempted to extricate myself from the bed of hell I had created for myself out of my own ignorance and the ignorance of those around me. It worked.

Ask Him to baptize you in His Spirit and stay in the Word; meditate on it day and night. You will find the other thoughts will begin to fade in the light of His glory, for if you resist the devil, he will flee. The thoughts are not from your spirit, nor His Spirit, but from the spirit of the evil one and YOU have been given authority over him by the Son of God. Take your authority as a believer in Christ and begin to exercise it, pulling down strongholds wherever they may be trying to stand. Blessings.....

[Lupac]

Lupac, this is from J. Preston Eby.  I think it can be helpful to you.  Soak it in.  Dwell on these things.

"It is most regrettable that many Bible translators have been careless in their translation of words that concern the ages. The common thought seems to have been that any age following this present age must be identical with eternity, which, of course, is gross error, and we get ourselves into all manner of confusion by thinking that such is the case. For instance, according to the King James version Jesus, speaking of the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, is clearly quoted as saying, "He that blasphemes the Holy Ghost has never forgiveness" (Mk. 3:29). Because of this faulty rendering we have concocted the fallacious notion of an unpardonable sin. But the Emphatic Diaglott translates the passage correctly thus: "Whoever may blaspheme the Holy Spirit has no forgiveness to the age, but is exposed to aionian (age-lasting) judgment." Likewise also the passage in Mat. 12:32...... Whosoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." The word world here, as the margin of your Bible will probably indicate, is translated from the Greek word AION, which means age or a period of time. See also Young's Concordance. Hence the translation should be, "It shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in the coming age" (Diaglott).


Jesus was born in the age of law. Therefore, when He spoke of this age, He was speaking of the age of law, the age to come being the Church age in which we now live.


God's precious people, saturated and literally "oozing" with the false doctrines of the harlot Church systems have long viewed God's judgments as a vindictive action prompted by a motive for revenge and supported by a tumultuous wrath that must be pacified. NOT SO! Such is a gross caricature of our God! His mercy and grace are super-abundant, His mercy endures to all ages, and though He finds it necessary to chasten, His wisdom and righteousness produce a just and pure chastisement conditioned to correct the situation, and bring forth a creature prepared to respond to the delivering and redeeming power of God. ALL OF GOD'S JUDGMENTS ARE CORRECTIVE IN NATURE, conceived in His wisdom, motivated by His love, administered by His power, and used to work out the divine purpose, into our good, and unto His praise!

Blessings, James.

Does this mean that what Jesus said, then to the Pharisees, applied to the age of the law, and not to this age? Not that I'm saying we should go around sinning against the Holy Spirit, but if we do, and we truly repent, Jesus does forgive us, correct?

[jabcat]

According to Brother Eby's thoughts on it, if his understanding is correct, I believe both of those things is how he would interpret scripture.  I've seen it said that those statements were to those in THAT age, that were resisting and blaspheming the works of the Holy Spirit that Jesus was doing, even though they knew better.  But yes, as someone else pointed out, how many other scriptures say over and over that God will forgive all - that even those guys, even though not yet forgiven in this (grace) age, will still yet be forgiven in either the next age, or the ages to come - as God processes them and as/when they respond to His mercy.

Think about this.  They were Jews, right?  Of the House of Israel.  In Romans 11 it says this;  

"For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;

26 and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 And this is my covenant unto them, When I shall take away their sins."

Blessings, James.

[Lupac]

Whew... Thank you so much.

[jabcat]

You're welcome brother. 

Paul, in I Tim. 2:1-6..."I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN ... for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who WILL HAVE  A-L-L  M-E-N  TO BE SAVED, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time."

The eternal God WILL have all men to be saved! We need to ask God to fill our minds with this great truth, by the Holy Spirit." - J. P. Eby

[Barry DuPont]

Consider another approach:
Jer 20:10   For I heard the defaming of many, fear on every side. Report, [say they], and we will report it. All my familiars watched for my halting, [saying], Peradventure he will be enticed, and we shall prevail against him, and we shall take our revenge on him. 
Jer 20:11 But the LORD [is] with me as a mighty terrible one: therefore my persecutors shall stumble, and they shall not prevail: they shall be greatly ashamed; for they shall not prosper: [their] everlasting confusion shall never be forgotten.
The verse is speaking of the "reproach" which would then stand against the "ego". More accurately, the "self sufficient man" or "self defined man" the "an independent human potential". The meaning is that "History" would neither forgive nor forget. God would however control the historical outcome.

Let's see if this can work again:
Jer 23:38   But since ye say, The burden of the LORD; therefore thus saith the LORD; Because ye say this word, The burden of the LORD, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the LORD; 
Jer 23:39   Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, {historically of course} and the city that I gave you and your fathers, [and cast you] out of my presence: 
Jer 23:40   And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

These verses are speaking to the "ego" of apostate Israel. It has acctually nothing to do with any alleged lack of forgiveness on God's part. History would not forgive or forget. This was a message and warning to the "ego-driven identity" of the independent human potential as embodied in the old covenant man. What was it that this ego-driven identity cherished the most? The approval of men.

It works here too IMO:
Eze 16:60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant. 
Eze 16:61   Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant. 
Eze 16:62   And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I [am] the LORD: 
Eze 16:63   That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.

God's forgiveness would not nullify the historical implications for the "ego-driven identity".
"Heavens and earth {old covenant order} shall pass away but my words shall not pass away".

Sodom was an example of this eternal fire:
Jud 1:7   Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 

The same thing was about to happen to Jerusalem (Jer 23:39 "...and the city that I gave you and your fathers."

Mat 23:35   That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 
Mat 23:36   Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! 
Mat 23:38   Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 


Rev 14:10   The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 
Rev 14:11   And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 

The point is not that God does not forgive. The point is that History does not. That was the message to those seeking the approval of men.

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men {From the persective of the approval of men, from the perspective of this reproach}. 
Mat 12:32   And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world{age}, neither in the [world {age}] to come. 
Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit.

The reproach would begin in that age prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and then would be historical from that time on. "Neither in this age, nor in the one to come".
Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:  
Mar 3:29   But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: {IE reproach}
Mar 3:30   Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

So why the difference between the two? Why the difference between saying something against Christ and saying something against the Holy Spirit?
Because the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit was the denial of God's possibility in favor of an independent human potential. Which for apostate Israel comes down to self righteousness and the approval of men.
This is the point that Jesus is making against the ego-driven identity of apostate Israel.

Think about it.
Why forgive one and not the other. Why totally forgive everything but one thing????
It makes no sense unless there is a distinct message in the terms that are being used and what they mean historically.

Do we see God saying?
Oh yea, what you are about to do to my Son I will forgive you, but don't you dare say anything about the Holy Spirit! It makes no sense IMO.
Rather Jesus is saying, God will forgive everything, He is going to forgive it all, but your facade of who you make yourself out to be is going to suffer reproach. History does not forgive.

Now the "reproach" is not to be understood in terms of just being embarrassed about something. No this reproach is more specific. It involves who and what apostate thought they were. "A light to the world".
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 

The loss on their part was not a matter of God's lack of forgiveness as we might first look at it. It is a matter of God's love. God could not bless humanity with a "light" that was really a "darkness".


Just some thoughts, hope they were understandable.
Barry

[WhiteWings]

Jesus does forgive us, correct?

Sorry to disapoint you Lupac. He doesn't. He already did before you were born :laughing7:

I suggest you read this short thread: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6363.0
(and the full article)

[Zeek]

Consider another approach:
Jer 20:10   For I heard the defaming of many, fear on every side. Report, [say they], and we will report it. All my familiars watched for my halting, [saying], Peradventure he will be enticed, and we shall prevail against him, and we shall take our revenge on him. 
Jer 20:11 But the LORD [is] with me as a mighty terrible one: therefore my persecutors shall stumble, and they shall not prevail: they shall be greatly ashamed; for they shall not prosper: [their] everlasting confusion shall never be forgotten.
The verse is speaking of the "reproach" which would then stand against the "ego". More accurately, the "self sufficient man" or "self defined man" the "an independent human potential". The meaning is that "History" would neither forgive nor forget. God would however control the historical outcome.

Let's see if this can work again:
Jer 23:38   But since ye say, The burden of the LORD; therefore thus saith the LORD; Because ye say this word, The burden of the LORD, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the LORD; 
Jer 23:39   Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, {historically of course} and the city that I gave you and your fathers, [and cast you] out of my presence: 
Jer 23:40   And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

These verses are speaking to the "ego" of apostate Israel. It has acctually nothing to do with any alleged lack of forgiveness on God's part. History would not forgive or forget. This was a message and warning to the "ego-driven identity" of the independent human potential as embodied in the old covenant man. What was it that this ego-driven identity cherished the most? The approval of men.

It works here too IMO:
Eze 16:60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant. 
Eze 16:61   Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant. 
Eze 16:62   And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I [am] the LORD: 
Eze 16:63   That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.

God's forgiveness would not nullify the historical implications for the "ego-driven identity".
"Heavens and earth {old covenant order} shall pass away but my words shall not pass away".

Sodom was an example of this eternal fire:
Jud 1:7   Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 

The same thing was about to happen to Jerusalem (Jer 23:39 "...and the city that I gave you and your fathers."

Mat 23:35   That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 
Mat 23:36   Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! 
Mat 23:38   Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 


Rev 14:10   The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 
Rev 14:11   And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 

The point is not that God does not forgive. The point is that History does not. That was the message to those seeking the approval of men.

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men {From the persective of the approval of men, from the perspective of this reproach}. 
Mat 12:32   And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world{age}, neither in the [world {age}] to come. 
Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit.

The reproach would begin in that age prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and then would be historical from that time on. "Neither in this age, nor in the one to come".
Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:  
Mar 3:29   But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: {IE reproach}
Mar 3:30   Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

So why the difference between the two? Why the difference between saying something against Christ and saying something against the Holy Spirit?
Because the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit was the denial of God's possibility in favor of an independent human potential. Which for apostate Israel comes down to self righteousness and the approval of men.
This is the point that Jesus is making against the ego-driven identity of apostate Israel.

Think about it.
Why forgive one and not the other. Why totally forgive everything but one thing????
It makes no sense unless there is a distinct message in the terms that are being used and what they mean historically.

Do we see God saying?
Oh yea, what you are about to do to my Son I will forgive you, but don't you dare say anything about the Holy Spirit! It makes no sense IMO.
Rather Jesus is saying, God will forgive everything, He is going to forgive it all, but your facade of who you make yourself out to be is going to suffer reproach. History does not forgive.

Now the "reproach" is not to be understood in terms of just being embarrassed about something. No this reproach is more specific. It involves who and what apostate thought they were. "A light to the world".
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 

The loss on their part was not a matter of God's lack of forgiveness as we might first look at it. It is a matter of God's love. God could not bless humanity with a "light" that was really a "darkness".


Just some thoughts, hope they were understandable.
Barry

:thumbsup:

[Lupac]

Thank you all!

[Zeek]

Consider another approach:
Jer 20:10   For I heard the defaming of many, fear on every side. Report, [say they], and we will report it. All my familiars watched for my halting, [saying], Peradventure he will be enticed, and we shall prevail against him, and we shall take our revenge on him.  
Jer 20:11 But the LORD [is] with me as a mighty terrible one: therefore my persecutors shall stumble, and they shall not prevail: they shall be greatly ashamed; for they shall not prosper: [their] everlasting confusion shall never be forgotten.
The verse is speaking of the "reproach" which would then stand against the "ego". More accurately, the "self sufficient man" or "self defined man" the "an independent human potential". The meaning is that "History" would neither forgive nor forget. God would however control the historical outcome.

Let's see if this can work again:
Jer 23:38   But since ye say, The burden of the LORD; therefore thus saith the LORD; Because ye say this word, The burden of the LORD, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the LORD;  
Jer 23:39   Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, {historically of course} and the city that I gave you and your fathers, [and cast you] out of my presence:  
Jer 23:40   And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

These verses are speaking to the "ego" of apostate Israel. It has acctually nothing to do with any alleged lack of forgiveness on God's part. History would not forgive or forget. This was a message and warning to the "ego-driven identity" of the independent human potential as embodied in the old covenant man. What was it that this ego-driven identity cherished the most? The approval of men.

It works here too IMO:
Eze 16:60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.  
Eze 16:61   Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant.  
Eze 16:62   And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I [am] the LORD:  
Eze 16:63   That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.

God's forgiveness would not nullify the historical implications for the "ego-driven identity".
"Heavens and earth {old covenant order} shall pass away but my words shall not pass away".

Sodom was an example of this eternal fire:
Jud 1:7   Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.  

The same thing was about to happen to Jerusalem (Jer 23:39 "...and the city that I gave you and your fathers."

Mat 23:35   That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.  
Mat 23:36   Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.  
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!  
Mat 23:38   Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.  


Rev 14:10   The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:  
Rev 14:11   And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.  

The point is not that God does not forgive. The point is that History does not. That was the message to those seeking the approval of men.

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men {From the persective of the approval of men, from the perspective of this reproach}.  
Mat 12:32   And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world{age}, neither in the [world {age}] to come.  
Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit.

The reproach would begin in that age prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and then would be historical from that time on. "Neither in this age, nor in the one to come".
Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:  
Mar 3:29   But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: {IE reproach}
Mar 3:30   Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

So why the difference between the two? Why the difference between saying something against Christ and saying something against the Holy Spirit?
Because the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit was the denial of God's possibility in favor of an independent human potential. Which for apostate Israel comes down to self righteousness and the approval of men.
This is the point that Jesus is making against the ego-driven identity of apostate Israel.

Think about it.
Why forgive one and not the other. Why totally forgive everything but one thing????
It makes no sense unless there is a distinct message in the terms that are being used and what they mean historically.

Do we see God saying?
Oh yea, what you are about to do to my Son I will forgive you, but don't you dare say anything about the Holy Spirit! It makes no sense IMO.
Rather Jesus is saying, God will forgive everything, He is going to forgive it all, but your facade of who you make yourself out to be is going to suffer reproach. History does not forgive.

Now the "reproach" is not to be understood in terms of just being embarrassed about something. No this reproach is more specific. It involves who and what apostate thought they were. "A light to the world".
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.  

The loss on their part was not a matter of God's lack of forgiveness as we might first look at it. It is a matter of God's love. God could not bless humanity with a "light" that was really a "darkness".


Just some thoughts, hope they were understandable.
Barry

Hi Barry,

Wondering if you see translators as having gotten it "right" with "everlasting, forever, forever and ever" in your view of a "historical implication" that won't be forgotten.  Your view, is an interesting one; in that looking at aion, and aionios don't necessarily need to be "evaluated" to still believe in universal reconciliation.  Interested in your thots.  Thanks.

Z

[Barry DuPont]

Hey Zeek
IMHO the subject is clearly historical.
We can do the same thing with "the worm that never dies". It never dies because it becomes a historical reproach upon the self defined man embodied in apostate Israel.
A matter of legacy (reproach in this instance). It is the onlookers of history that bring the reproach into its perpetuity.
This relates directly to the source of the issue which is seeking the glory of men. And so the warning is that they would get the opposite effect. The legacy as far as the "ego" (in this instance) is concern is one of reproach.
A terrifying thought to for the self defined man that sees himself in these very terms. Terms which attempt to define value through the approval of men.
So the message has to be understood in this aspect of audience relevance. Even here we get the same thing:

Background ego-driven problem in Corinth:

1Cr 1:12   Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 
1Cr 1:13   Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 

As it surfaced here as well:
1Cr 3:7   So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
Conclusion:
1Cr 3:15   If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The loss is historical in context as it is a matter of legacy and reproach.

The point then IMO is that we can simply bypass most if not all the arguments as to whether words translated as "age-during" or "eternal" or "everlasting" and so on are literal or not.
IMO it usually does not mater whether it refers to a literal perpetuity or a "long time".

Heavens and earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass away.
So then logically the implication is that something would pass away and that sets an historical point of reference concerning what would not. That point of reference then will not pass away as it is now permanent.

Jer 23:39   Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, {historically of course} and the city that I gave you and your fathers, [and cast you] out of my presence: 
Jer 23:40   And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

Hbr 13:13   Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. {Because His reproach gets turned around, see 1 Corinthians, the whole of chapter 2}
Hbr 13:14   For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

The city is forsaken forever. As are it's children.
The New Covenant Jerusalem is the mother of all however. That becomes the point while at the same time the threat stood over the head of that which was to become a reproach. This is where audience relevance becomes important in connection with "threats".

JMO
Barry




 


 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Ninja...  :happygrin:

I mean no offense to you bro... but, I feel the Lord compelling me to make the following comments...

Someone had asked me about luke 12 and how it related to UR recently but I didnt feel my answer was very good, particulary with this verse

Luk 12:10  "and every one whoever shall say a word to the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven to him, but to him who to the Holy Spirit did speak evil, it shall not be forgiven."

now granted, it doesnt say it will never be forgiven(though in the WNT it actually says "will never obtain forgiveness" but it still doesnt scream UR to me. What do you think?

Here is what "I think" -- brother NINJA, ...it seems to me as you post on TM, ...that you are continually looking for REASONS to NOT believe that God shall do as HIS WORD, says He shall -- 1 Tim 2:3-6

Doubt is the 1st thing that a BELIEVER must RID HIMSELF of... and as you pursue "REASONS" to disbelieve the fact that JESUS ...IS... the SAVIOR of ALL MEN -- 1 Tim 4:10 --  Then that "doubt" shall continue to inhibit you from embracing the TRUTH...

The "IS" in -- 1 Tim 4:10 -- is a notation of the ETERNAL...

CHRIST (the WORD) never changes -- Heb 13:8 -- so what He "IS" then (PAST) -- He "IS" now (PRESENT) -- and He "IS" in the future (TO COME) --  :dontknow:

CHRIST -- cannot BE ["is"] the SAVIOR of the WORLD -- 1 John 4:14 -- unless He indeed SAVES that WORLD...  :dontknow:  Within THAT, my friend, is REASON...

I "capitalized" the word "REASONS" above, specifically for a "REASON"...

What makes NO REASONABLE sense, is PUNISHMENT WITHOUT END.  What POINT is established by such a proposal?  

GOD is a GOD of PURPOSE... Please explain to me, ...what PURPOSE is found in a PROPOSAL of PUNISHMENT that never arrives at a CONCLUSION?

You say that the statement in Luke 12:10 above, does not "scream UR" to you...  What does it "scream" to you Ninja?

Does it "scream" that GOD, who before bringing any given man into existence KNEW said men would "speak against the Holy Spirit"... and THEN -- is PERFECTLY UNFORGIVING of that which He KNEW would happen?  How disoriented and UNREASONABLE is this? :pitiful:

If you are able, please note here in the WORD-- the WARNING to "not speak against the Holy Spirit"?  Which was given prior to CHRIST's appearance on Earth, and clearly states this WARNING!  If no WARNING was given, how can we be held responsible?  That would be like a cop giving you a citation for SPEEDING, where there was NO SPEED LIMIT posted!  

Where is the WARNING (in the OT) of this "UNENDING UNFORGIVENESS" -- upon which this statement (as it "screams" to you) is based upon?

If there is NO WARNING, then [IMO - you are welcome to your disbelief] -- this statement in Luke 12:10 -- cannot mean what you seem to think it does... (a committed sin which is FOREVER unforgiveable)

EXAMPLE --- If you were to place a GUN in an innocent hand,  (knowing the gun can KILL), and IN that "innocence" a KILLING takes place, shall YOU pronounce MURDER to that "innocent"?  When the "innocent" was NEVER WARNED of the "potentials" of the gun?  When it was YOU which provided the means for the MURDER to be engaged?  

THAT, brother Ninja... is an UNREASONABLE scenario... certainly NOT issued of a PERFECT mind, such as we percieve of our FATHER YHVH.

CHRIST is noting that those who are in proximity to HEARING and observing the presentation of GRACE, ("this age" = His time on earth, and the "age to come" = after His departure, leading up to the END of TIME) -- shall this SIN not be forgiven.  

NOT "FOREVER", but in these 2 "AGES" [portions] of TIME...

FOREVER is not subject to TIME...

TIME is subject to FOREVER...

That the word AGE was used in this statement, indicates this mandate as being AMIDST TIME... and CONFINED to it... not to invade the PERFECTION of FOREVER...

As one enters the realm of FOREVER (having exited TIME) -- They shall find that the Lamb has TAKEN AWAY the SIN of the WORLD -- John 1:29 -- which includes the "SIN of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit"... and, after facing (on the LAST DAY, in which RESURRECTION is manifest -- John 6:44)

In the NAKEDNESS of the SHAME this sin exposes -- (the most defiling of sins) -- Rev 3:18 -- one shall FIND the FORGIVENESS one did not recieve in the realm of TIME FOR it...

Just as did the Adultress who was rightly condemned by the LAW, find NO CONDEMNATION by CHRIST, even though she FACED the SHAME before all... GOD has NO RESPECT of PERSONS...

BTW... keep in mind, bro --- TEARS are NOT a BAD THING (a song I wrote a few years ago)

Again brother, no offense was intended toward you, ...Believe what you will...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Lupac]

I have no doubt that Christ will forgive all in the end. But I'm still worried I have committed this sin. I have thought of some stuff against the Holy Spirit, I didn't want to, it just kind of, came into my head. You know the harder you try not to think about something, the more you end up thinking about it. My doctor taught me a way to make it stop. It's called "exposure response prevention". Basically, you have to say whatever thought is bothering you, out loud, over and over until the thought no longer brings a panic response. Whenever I did this, I prayed to God, that he would understand what I'm doing, and not be angry, as I'm not trying to blaspheme Him or His Son, or His Holy Spirit, I'm just trying to get rid of this thing that's causing me problems. But I still fear, maybe I didn't pray right, or maybe I really meant it, or something like that, and now I'm going to be cut off from him until the sin is purged by Him in the LoF and I'll never be able to be his son. Can anyone help?

[Raggedy Anne]

I have no doubt that Christ will forgive all in the end. But I'm still worried I have committed this sin. I have thought of some stuff against the Holy Spirit, I didn't want to, it just kind of, came into my head. You know the harder you try not to think about something, the more you end up thinking about it. My doctor taught me a way to make it stop. It's called "exposure response prevention". Basically, you have to say whatever thought is bothering you, out loud, over and over until the thought no longer brings a panic response. Whenever I did this, I prayed to God, that he would understand what I'm doing, and not be angry, as I'm not trying to blaspheme Him or His Son, or His Holy Spirit, I'm just trying to get rid of this thing that's causing me problems. But I still fear, maybe I didn't pray right, or maybe I really meant it, or something like that, and now I'm going to be cut off from him until the sin is purged by Him in the LoF and I'll never be able to be his son. Can anyone help?

Lupac,

It makes me so sad to see you tormented by the enemy.  I believe your problem is that you are under an attack on your mind.  I have been there (as I've said, many years ago).   This fear you have is NOT from God.  It is real fear, but not from the Holy Spirit.    Ask God to help you rest in His goodness.  God IS LOVE.   Whatever spirit is tormenting you is NOT GOOD and not from God.    I will be praying for you.

Anne

[WhiteWings]

But I still fear, maybe I didn't pray right, or maybe I really meant it, or something like that, and now I'm going to be cut off from him until the sin is purged by Him in the LoF and I'll never be able to be his son. Can anyone help?

What exactly is praying Lupac? Can't remeber the verse that states father already knows your words before they where spoken. Then you have to ask yourself where the words where before they where spoken. They where in your heart. It's not the exact wording that counts because then abot everyone is doomed. Many claim Father, Son, HS, God, Lord are titles of great respect. Yet many others claim all those words have pagan backgrounds. Others claim the real names are Jehova, Yahweh, Yehweh, Yahsua, Yahasua, etc.
I've even sen a site that was soley devoted to the name of Jesus. That's good imo because it only shows repect if you correctly adress the one you worship. But that person was going as far as claiming that you don't worship God if you don't pronounce His name correctly. So many pages followed how exactly to pronounce His name.
Off-topic? I think not. Father knows we don't have unlimited brainpower. So I'm sure He won't hold it against you if you used a wrong name. I'm not saying "Lupac don't worry. Just do it the way you like." I'm just saying don't worry if you are doing things with repect and make honest small mistakes. If that would be the meassuring stick very very very few would reach their goal.
About LoF. Everyone is going there. Everyone....
1Co_3:15 - All saved, so as by fire
Mark 9:49-50  or every one shall be salted with fire .... Salt is good

Don't see LoF as a ET hell that lasts a short while. It's not a torture pitt.

Lastly why can't you ever be His son? If you are purified in LoF why aren't you pure enough to be His son?
Isn't Father the Father of whole creation? If yes are you part of His creation?

[lomarah]

Hi Lupac,
Like Anne I am saddened and angry about the attacks on your mind that you are going through. I know exactly where you are, I have OCD as well. Mine is intrusive thoughts about hurting loved ones. One thing that helps me is remembering that Jesus had these intrusive thoughts as well: "bow down and worship me (Satan)", etc. Obviously these were not His own thoughts and God did not hold Him accountable for thinking about bowing down and worshipping Satan! (And obviously He never would anyway lol)
OCD is like a never ending cycle. You desperately want the thoughts to leave, but you believe that the thoughts are going to send you to hell so the harder you try not to think them the more you do. And if you believe God is sending you to hell you subconsciously ARE thinking the awful thoughts about Him because how can you not hate someone who would want to torment you for all eternity? Trust me, I know your torment, I have been there too and it is not fun. That's why I am so thankful for the TRUTH of universal reconciliation. Knowing God's true character truly frees us from this torment. Just remember that God's judgements are always just. Would you punish someone for having intrusive thoughts that they can't stop and are tormented by? Then why would He?

[Lupac]

Thank you all. But I wanted to say, please don't pray that this "evil spirit" or "demon" will stop hurting me. It's nothing like that. It's my own mind, and nothing else. I used to believe that a demon was responsible for them, I kept getting worse and worse. Once I stopped believing it was a demon, or whatever, that was my first breakthrough. I started getting better. I don't believe the devil can "make" you think evil things. Because, if he can take over your mind long enough to put a thought in your head, what stopping him from taking over your mind? So I don't believe this is anything other then my deepest fears manifesting themselves in this way. Thank you all for your kind words.

Also, I think Satan did a lot more the Jesus than talk to him. I think he appeared to Jesus, and moved him from one location to the next.