What you need to know before getting vaccinated for ANYTHING.

[Gab]

http://www.whale.to/vaccine/sf1.html

Well, the article certainly makes bold claims, but I can't help but notice that it seems to suffer from a dearth of solid evidence.  Conversely, the evidence in favor of the Spanish flu, and the tens of millions of fatalities, being caused by a strain of flu virus, is easily presentable.  As I said, medical professionals have seen the 1918 flu virus.  It is not a form of typhoid as claimed; it is undeniably a strain of the flu virus, the same type of virus responsible for seasonal flu.  They have injected it into lab animals and observed that the symptoms seen were precisely those symptoms observed in sufferers during the 1918 flu pandemic.  Many who were afflicted with the 1918 flu had never even seen a vaccine in their lives, having no money to spare for such a thing.  The way in which such an organism can mutate into a deadlier form is quite well-understood by the scientific community, as well.

Moreover, the flu had a truly global reach.  It was seen everywhere from the United States to New Zealand to Japan, with deaths everywhere.  Places that strictly controlled entry into their borders suffered less from the virus than places that did not.  And the only places that registered no deaths from the flu were those that instituted quarantines that held up successfully until the end of the pandemic.  Places that were more humid - that is, places in which the dissemination of microorganisms is much easier - were much harder hit than places with low humidity.  All of these facts utterly fly in the face of the idea that the Spanish flu is linked to vaccinations, rather than a virus spread person-to-person.

Ironically enough, the article also states that "(the flu) will not kill 20,000,000 people unless the people submit to the disease-producing shots," yet there were indeed mass immunizations implemented in light of the 1976 flu outbreak (of which the article is speaking), and there were only 25 deaths associated to side effects of the vaccine - each of them tragically unnecessary, but nothing approaching the apocalyptic imagery anti-vaccine crowds were attempting to drum up.  And in recent years, no such deaths due to vaccine side effects have been seen, ever, despite vaccines for the seasonal flu being given to people every single year.  The writer's own article is now practically self-refuting in light of the realities of the 1976 immunizations whose results we now know.

I don't mean to come across as pushy or anything - I've just honestly never even heard this claim before, and it is one of the strangest I have ever seen.  I'll give its advocates credit for their sincere concern and passion, but I can't say I can give them credit for having the balance of evidence on their side.

The media certainly is part of they. But most of the time the media quotes a scientist.
Or misquotes perhaps...
The defenition of a pandamic was that a certain percentage of people got infected and a certain percentage dies of that infection. Last year the 'percentage dies' is removed from that defenition. That means WHO has to declare a possible pandamic much sooner. Many countries must (by their on law) act upon the recommendation of WHO. Coincidence?

Do you have a source documenting the change?  I can't find a comprehensive one.  The only change, at least that I can find, is the removal of "causing serious illness" from the three signs, as was previously documented in a WHO article I found on the H5N1 avian flu.  Transmission from animals to humans, the infection of humans, and human-to-human transmissions are still in place.  The reason why this change occurs is because we have become more aware as time goes on of the danger of a mild virus mutating into a serious virus, and such a mutation becomes more likely the more people who have it - so preventing the disease from spreading is of paramount importance.

I suppose if you really wanted to find a link between that and H1N1 rather than passing it off as a coincidence, someone who is truly determined to pin this all on a conspiracy will inevitably do so, but I don't exactly see the evidence in favor of such a thing.  People have been predicting death and doom resulting from vaccines for a long time now - so it's not as if the opposition to this vaccine is some particularly new thing.  And such predictions have turned up basically nothing at all - as I pointed out, people in 1976 were also predicting a repeat of 1918 if vaccination programs go ahead, but absolutely nothing came of that despite vaccinations going ahead.  So one will have to forgive me for being skeptical now that history has officially come full circle since that 1976 article.

True. To a certain extend....
Example. A hunter with a running nose steps in a bear trap. He free himself and starts a 3 hour walk to the hospital. His foot is cut off by the trap and loose lots and lots of blood. after 2 hours he dies.
Did he die because of bloodloss? The bear trap? Or the running nose (flu)?

Don't get me wrong Gab I don't really disagree with you; but we both know how stats are abused.

I would guarantee you that that would be ruled death by blood loss by anyone acting in a competent fashion.  People whose job it is to determine cause of death know their stuff - they don't just guess; they earnestly search for what portion of the body failed in its vital functions.  A death that would be ruled as a death from flu would be something along the lines of a terribly infected and failed respiratory system.

That's still a bit different. "emergency" sounds quite threatening.
"but otherwise just don't go out in public, drink liquids, and get rest." That doesn't sound really deadly.

Well, like I said, it wasn't saying that for anyone with flu-like symptoms.  It was only specific symptoms, such as severe shortness of breath or chest pains - indications that a serious infection of pneumonia has occurred on top of the flu, in other words.  And such a situation would absolutely be a cause for alarm - pneumonia can be a deadly disease if left untreated.

And no, that doesn't sound really deadly - that's the point; the article was reassuring people that if all they have is mild-to-moderate flu symptoms then they probably are not going to die, and should just rest at home.

[WhiteWings]

http://www.whale.to/vaccine/sf1.html

Well, the article certainly makes bold claims, but I can't help but notice that it seems to suffer from a dearth of solid evidence.  Conversely, the evidence in favor of the Spanish flu, and the tens of millions of fatalities, being caused by a strain of flu virus, is easily presentable.  As I said, medical professionals have seen the 1918 flu virus. 
.......
Moreover, the flu had a truly global reach.

That flu was during a war period. Actually at the end of it. During war the health of people drops because of ll kind of things. Food shortage being one of them.
So the immume syem was likely weak. There were also troop transports. That aids spread of the virus.
Greece had no vacination program. No flu there.
There is more than just one article. Later today I'll try to find some.

All of these facts utterly fly in the face of the idea that the Spanish flu is linked to vaccinations, rather than a virus spread person-to-person.

Not really. The flu has to gain momentum. So if more are infected by vaccines the chance that people without a vaccine get infected increases to.

I don't mean to come across as pushy or anything - I've just honestly never even heard this claim before, and it is one of the strangest I have ever seen.

May I conclude that you haven't read the article(s) that state it was manufactured by the US military?  :laughing7:

The media certainly is part of they. But most of the time the media quotes a scientist.
Or misquotes perhaps...
The defenition of a pandamic was that a certain percentage of people got infected and a certain percentage dies of that infection. Last year the 'percentage dies' is removed from that defenition. That means WHO has to declare a possible pandamic much sooner. Many countries must (by their on law) act upon the recommendation of WHO. Coincidence?

Do you have a source documenting the change?  I can't find a comprehensive one. 

I'll try to find that one also. I think I already post it somewhere on this forum.
The 'problem' is that a large part of the articles I read are in Dutch.

People have been predicting death and doom resulting from vaccines for a long time now

Do a search on Google or this forum for autistic children in the USA from 1:10000 to 1:166
Since a certain vaccine. But not among the Amish who refused vaccines.

True. To a certain extend....
Example. A hunter with a running nose steps in a bear trap. He free himself and starts a 3 hour walk to the hospital. His foot is cut off by the trap and loose lots and lots of blood. after 2 hours he dies.
Did he die because of bloodloss? The bear trap? Or the running nose (flu)?

Don't get me wrong Gab I don't really disagree with you; but we both know how stats are abused.

I would guarantee you that that would be ruled death by blood loss by anyone acting in a competent fashion.  People whose job it is to determine cause of death know their stuff - they don't just guess; they earnestly search for what portion of the body failed in its vital functions.  A death that would be ruled as a death from flu would be something along the lines of a terribly infected and failed respiratory system.

Ok fair. Same example but now the leg was shot off by someone on puspose.
I think a judge won't see the shooting and dying of bloodloss as something unrelated.

[WhiteWings]

Gab,

I'll start with the articles about autism. A little off-topic but I mentioned it in my post so a few links to such articles.

Autism Rate - US 1:166, Amish 1:15,000

Washington, DC, Jun. 8 (UPI) -- The autism rate for U.S. children is 1 in 166, according to the federal government. The autism rate for the Amish around Middlefield, Ohio, is 1 in 15,000, according to Dr. Heng Wang.

http://www.wellsphere.com/autism-autism-spectrum-article/autism-rate-us-1-166-amish-1-15-000/389502

Did mercury in vaccines cause an epidemic of autism, ADD, ADHD, speech
delay and other childhood disorders? Evidence of Harm: Mercury In Vaccines
And The Autism Epidemic: A Medical Controversy (St. Martin's Press, April
2005, $24.95 Hardcover, ISBN: 0-312-32644-9), by New York Times contributor David Kirby, is a disturbing, important book that examines both sides of this brewing controversy-the personal stories of the affected families and the unfolding political drama in the courts and halls of Congress.

http://www.autismtoday.com/articles/1_in_6.htm

MOUNTING EVIDENCE suggests that Thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative in children's vaccines, may
be responsible for the exponential growth of autism, attention deficit disorder, speech delays, and other
childhood neurological disorders now epidemic in the United States.
Prior to 1989, American infants generally received three vaccinations (polio, measles-mumps-rubella, and
diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis). In the early 1990s, public health officials dramatically increased the number of
Thimerosal-containing vaccinations without considering the cumulative impact of the mercury load on
developing brains.

http://autism.pbisillinois.org/RFK_mercury_article.pdf

http://74.125.155.132/scholar?q=cache:TXEKInc3WJwJ:scholar.google.com/+166+US+children+autistic+mercury&hl=en&num=100
[/hr]
Pandemic definition

The original pandemic definition had two important words removed shortly before the World Health Organisation (WHO) on 11 June 2009 declared the current H1N1 flu outbreak to be a "pandemic".

Current definition:
1] There must be a disease new to a population - or at least a disease that had not surfaced for a long time.
2] This disease must be caused by disease-causing agents that infect humans, causing serious illness.
3] The agents must spread easily and sustainable among humans.

I did not realize it at the time and I only just recently found out (in late July) that the pandemic definition had been changed by the WHO just before they declared the "pandemic" on June 11. The original definition contained two other conditions -- there must be a high morbidity and a high mortality rate.
(can't find old and new definitions on for example the WHO site)

Interview with Epidemiologist Tom Jefferson (also mentions changed definition) http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,637119,00.html

Swine flu is more than ten times less severe than the seasonal flu, he said. (Professor James Chin, an epidemiologist at University of California, Berkeley.)
.....
The WHO's old definition of a pandemic encompassed a new strain of the virus appearing against which the human population has no immunity, resulting in several, simultaneous epidemics worldwide with enormous numbers of deaths and illness.

http://gulfnews.com/business/general/illness-found-in-definition-1.18327

Just a few numbers you can compare: http://www.cynthiajanak.com/Definition-of-a-pandemic.html

Spanish Flu => didn't find much (yet). Just a few links you will likely don't find of much value.

A similar story can be told of the deadly Spanish flu of 1918. This erupted from a new forced vaccination program of all WWI American soldiers. In fact, it is said that a common saying of the day was that more men were lost to shots from the medics than from shots by the enemy. And even after the results of the shots should have been glaringly obvious to all, they pushed ahead with a nationwide vaccination program to 'protect' the civilians from the 'bugs' the soldiers picked up overseas. They then exported this vaccination program to the rest of the world which then suffered a deadly pandemic which cost some 50 million souls. Greece, one of the few countries to abstain from the Spanish flu vaccination program, had no Spanish flu outbreak.

http://www.theshotheardroundtheworld.info/LettertoHealthCare.html

http://www.rense.com/general74/amak.htm



http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message852138/pg1


http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2003/05/08/story265526733.asp
http://www.rense.com/general45/USvaccinescaused.htm

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I got my first ever flu and pneumonia shot last year, after I finally got free of pneumonia. I didn't get the flu at all, but normally I don't anyway, for some reason. I've had the flu maybe 3 times in my life, total. But will try the Brazil nuts; I'm already on vitamin C and other things trying to boost my weakened immune system from being fed prednisone for 14 months straight, which nearly killed me. Never again. Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

Try this emergency package Cardinal.
(http://chocolatecrisiscenter.com/store/images/cranberry_nutcase.jpg)

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  :laughing7:

[Doc]

There are other strange claims, as well.  For example, he claims that viruses like polio and smallpox have been eradicated (or all but eradicated for polio) due to sanitation, potable water, nutrition, and the like, and that the vaccines had nothing to do with it whatsoever.  Yet, this too is incongruent with the evidence - when the polio vaccine was first implemented on a broad scale, the number of new polio cases dropped like a rock.  Sanitation, water, and nutrition didn't just magically improve on that broad a scale at the exact same time the vaccine was implemented.  When a worldwide effort to eradicate the disease was undertaken in 1988, the number of new cases per year dropped from over 350,000 in 1988 to a little over 1,000 in 2007.  Again, this cannot possibly be attributed solely to an improvement in sanitation, water, and so forth.

Ah, but Dr. Moulden is not the first to comment on this. The actual evidence (As presented by Dr. Sherri Tenpenny, D.O.) is that the historical evidence (from the CDC) conclusively shows that polio was going away on its own before the vaccination program even got started. You should check out her video called: vaccination: the risks, the benefits, the choices. It is a three hour condensed version of a 13 hour presentation that she did before a large group of medical professionals. It's a number of years old now, but the information is still good, albeit a bit dated. The CDC's own documents actually show that vaccines are neither safe or effective.
One has to keep in mind that there is a large disinformation campaign going on in this country, and that voices like Dr. Moulden's are going to become more prevalent. Of course his view is a minority "opinion". We've been told lies for years.

That said, I agree that we don't necessarily need to entirely throw out the baby with the bathwater. My point is that people need to know that there are very real and potentially serious risks to be considered with vaccinations. The risk of an adverse event from vaccination is actually much higher than serious complications from any of the diseases they are purported to protect against.

While this may sound harsh, and any child death is a tragedy, 11 deaths or even 100 deaths in a year from flu is nothing compared to the number of deaths caused by modern medicines and medical practices. There are far more deaths each year from people taking ibuprophen.

[jabcat]

Check this out.  Does this sound crazy to anyone?

"The H1N1 vaccine will arrive too late to help most Americans who will be infected during this flu season, according to a study conducted by scholars at Purdue University, The Washington Times reported on Tuesday.

The study also estimates that the virus — commonly referred to as the swine flu bug — will infect about 60 percent of the U.S. population, although only about 25 percent of Americans will fall ill.

Published Oct. 15 in Eurosurveillance, a scientific journal devoted to epidemiology and the surveillance and control of communicable diseases, the study was conducted by professors Sherry Towers and Zhilan Feng of, respectively, Purdue's statistics and mathematics departments.

"The model predicts that there will be a significant wave in autumn, with 63% of the population being infected, and that this wave will peak so early that the planned [U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention] vaccination campaign will likely not have a large effect on the total number of people ultimately infected by the pandemic H1N1 influenza virus," the authors wrote in their study.

The authors said that this is the week, through Oct. 24, during which the greatest number of people would be infected. The vaccination program has barely started in the U.S.

"The model predicts that the peak wave of infection will occur near the end of October in week 42, with 8% of the population being infected during that week. By the end of 2009, the model predicts that a total of 63% of the population will have been infected," the authors wrote in a conclusion that ignored the effects of a CDC vaccination program.

Continue reading at The Washington Times"

[WhiteWings]

I would like to read a similar article on ordinary flu.
"a total of 63% of the population will have been infected"
Sounds very dangerous. There is a huge difference in 63% of the Americans sneezing once a week or dying.
The stats can be correct; but the way it's presented it's fear mongering.

We are infected with all kind of things many times a day. That's why we have an immume system. And we don't get the slightes bit ill. Ever seen that documentary of people without a immume system? They live in some sort of tent in a hospital. Hyper purified air because they even get sick from the smell of a flower.
For them a swin flu infection equals death.

So as said the stats might be correct. What they mean exactly by infection my be very well understood in the medical society. But when releasing an article to the general public requires some extra info like: 75% don't notice anything. 20% feel slighly sick. Etc
:2c:

[jabcat]

A little more fear-mongering, would you say?  :sigh:

[jabcat]

I've been reading about elderberry extract, vitamin d, and colloidal silver.  My son's been sick the past few days, some aching, eyes sore, etc...besides prayer, using all the supplements above.  He really seems to be doing pretty well, hasn't gotten extremely ill, told me tonight he felt pretty good. 

I saw some info tonight that said the elderberry extract (sambucol) is very good for "regular" flu, but some say it can cause or exacerbate a cytokine storm, i.e., an over-response of the immune system that causes inflammation in the lungs and can be lethal IN H1N1.  Many though are saying it's very good for H1N1.  Sometimes it's hard to sort through all the opinions.   

[WhiteWings]

A little more fear-mongering, would you say?  :sigh:

Could be.
Could also be they have absolutely no hidden agenda.
But after the fear-mongering I would say the article isn't complete enough.

[WhiteWings]

I've been reading about elderberry extract, vitamin d, and colloidal silver.  My son's been sick the past few days, some aching, eyes sore, etc...besides prayer, using all the supplements above.  He really seems to be doing pretty well, hasn't gotten extremely ill, told me tonight he felt pretty good. 

I saw some info tonight that said the elderberry extract (sambucol) is very good for "regular" flu, but some say it can cause or exacerbate a cytokine storm, i.e., an over-response of the immune system that causes inflammation in the lungs and can be lethal IN H1N1.  Many though are saying it's very good for H1N1.  Sometimes it's hard to sort through all the opinions.

Personally I think the immume system needs to be build/strengthended before the illness.
Bit like smoking can cause cancer. But when you have cancer it won't go away when you stop smoking.

told me tonight he felt pretty good

Sounds like his immume system is winning the battle. Plus the next time it will battle that flu in a much more effecient way. God put huge army with tiny soldiers with a big brain inside of us :winkgrin:

[Molly]

God put huge army with tiny soldiers with a big brain inside of us

Cells that have memory [the immune system]...hmmm

Like that water that has memory.  Wait, cells are mostly water!

Cells demand equal time! :girlheart:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Purdue University is here in Indiana, and we're so far out of the loop of national politics rungs of power, I doubt they have any hidden agenda whatsoever. My  :2c: Blessings.....

[CHB]

I've been reading about elderberry extract, vitamin d, and colloidal silver.  My son's been sick the past few days, some aching, eyes sore, etc...besides prayer, using all the supplements above.  He really seems to be doing pretty well, hasn't gotten extremely ill, told me tonight he felt pretty good. 

I saw some info tonight that said the elderberry extract (sambucol) is very good for "regular" flu, but some say it can cause or exacerbate a cytokine storm, i.e., an over-response of the immune system that causes inflammation in the lungs and can be lethal IN H1N1.  Many though are saying it's very good for H1N1.  Sometimes it's hard to sort through all the opinions.   

Hi Jabcat,

I know from personal experience that vitamin C will stop a cold if you start taking it at the first sign of one. A couple of weeks ago I felt like I might be getting a cold and I started taking Vitamin C and it went away.  I have done this more than once. Always take the Ester C so as not to mess up the stomach.

CHB

[Gab]

I've been reading about elderberry extract, vitamin d, and colloidal silver.  My son's been sick the past few days, some aching, eyes sore, etc...besides prayer, using all the supplements above.  He really seems to be doing pretty well, hasn't gotten extremely ill, told me tonight he felt pretty good. 

I saw some info tonight that said the elderberry extract (sambucol) is very good for "regular" flu, but some say it can cause or exacerbate a cytokine storm, i.e., an over-response of the immune system that causes inflammation in the lungs and can be lethal IN H1N1.  Many though are saying it's very good for H1N1.  Sometimes it's hard to sort through all the opinions.   

Hi Jabcat,

I know from personal experience that vitamin C will stop a cold if you start taking it at the first sign of one. A couple of weeks ago I felt like I might be getting a cold and I started taking Vitamin C and it went away.  I have done this more than once. Always take the Ester C so as not to mess up the stomach.

CHB

I can confirm that - whenever I feel a cold coming on, I always take 1000-1500 mg of vitamin C, and it's almost always gone by the morning.  Vitamin C is quite possibly one of the least toxic substances in all of God's green earth, so at the very least it can't hurt.

[WhiteWings]

http://www.leefbewust.com/themas/griep_vaccins.html

WHO sees 4.9 billion pandemic flu shots in best-case
Next step in H1N1 scare: Microchip implants

http://www.biodiem.com/index.asp?menuid=070.020
http://www.theshotheardroundtheworld.info/#top
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1K74Tnrrok

[sheila]

 Doc

   Thanks for the article. I lost a neice to sids 2 weeks after her shots. I was caring for a baby on a ventilator about the same time. He got innoculations and had to be placed in ICU.

  The ICU nurse and I got to talking, and she told me she was doing a paper on innoculations and sids. Also, my daughter came down severely ill with Lupus /Rheumatoid arthritis,after being required to get innoculations for nursing school.

  Same thing happened to me, innoculations brought on my Lupus. Now, my little 9 yr old grand-daughter has been dx'd
with it. She had a severe reaction to her shots as a three year old,to such an extant that they ceased all innoculations.

  We have a lot of auto-immune disease in our family.
  My little 6 year old grand-son is being tested for autism.

   I always knew it it my bones.

           Sheila