Why did early believers allow themselves to be martyred if they believed in UR?

[Gary Amirault]

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Guys (and gal!)

I'm wrestling with how to understand martyrdom from a uni perspective: if the early martyrs had believed that they would eventually be saved anyway, even if they, say, worshipped the emperor or denied Christ, might they not have taken the stand they did?

The following quote suggests that there was a connection between their marytrdom and their (wrong) belief in hell:


Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).

Can any of you help me with this? And indeed with a uni take on 2 Timothy 2:12 (if we deny him, he will deny us)? I've got to preach on that verse on Sunday and I'm struggling....

[Michele]

If most of the early believers believed in eternal torment.....wouldn't it make more sense that they would want to stay "alive" as long as possible in order to "save" as many people as they can before they die (and go to "heaven" and can't reach unbelievers anymore).

In regards to 2 Tim 2:12 -- We can't deny Him forever (we're not that strong).......LIFE is as inescapable as death.  He is the Alpha and the Omega.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hi; I'm not well versed on the UR doctrine, so someone else will need to step forward for you on that.

But I can help with the spiritual understanding He gave me on that verse. When He reveals something to us in His Word, as a spiritual revelation, we are always immediately presented with a "choose ye this day whom ye will serve", choice of whether or not to accept it and apply it, or reject it and deny it. This is why the wind was immediately contrary to Peter when the Word came to get out of the boat (our wooden carnal ways) and walk on the water (in the Spirit).

Since Christ IS the Spiritual Word, if you choose to accept it and stand in the day of decision and the opposition that comes (fire), that is how that Word/breath is made life in you. It is literally added to the measure of the Christ that is in you, and when you stand in the fire that comes to test you in it, the 4th man is seen in the fire. This is the meaning behind, "standing" on the Word. The Word that comes for you to stand on is spiritual, personal direction for the individual; it's His breath. Thus, man does not live or have life of Christ imparted to him by bread/letter alone, but by every Word/breath that comes from the mouth of God.

What is really happening is, God the consuming fire appears also, making it 5 in that furnace of affliction, which is the number of His grace. That is why they were not burned. Natural fire was consumed by spiritual fire by His very presence. This is why ALL things work together for good for those that love the Lord (God).

Conversely, what happens when you deny the Word/breath that was given to you is, like Peter, we begin to be overcome by the circumstance. Then for a season the fire comes to burn up the wood, hay, and stubble we chose to hang onto. So that man suffers loss, but only of what is temporal, and it in no way affects our standing with Christ, it only slowed down His taking of the kingdom (us) in shoe leather. He simply has removed the stumbling blocks and made the way straight again.

Ever wonder why when you received the revelation of UR, or no rapture, or the baptism of the Spirit is for today, or whatever it was, IMMEDIATELY all hell broke loose in your life sometimes before you could even open your mouth to share it? This is why. Immediately Satan comes to steal the Word/breath from your heart. And he comes first thru your own carnal mind, then maybe thru your spouse, or your children, or your co-workers, or your extended family, ect. trying to find a weak spot he can exploit to get you to "deny" Christ (the Word given you), so he then has the right to touch everything you have, that the fire burns up the dross. But what comes thru the fire is as gold (nature of God) refined to be pure as Christ is pure, and then the testing in that area of your life is over. And once formed in you, no man can touch it or take it away from you.

God has no problem whatsoever getting His will to be done. We can do it the easy way, or we can do it the hard way, but anyway it goes we are going to do it. The Comforter did indeed come to comfort us, but It also came to take us to the cross. It just comforts us while It's doing it, LOL. God has a sense of humor.

So the whole notion of "fire insurance" is a wasted effort, since as some have rightly observed, "hell" is right here on/in our earth ;). Blessings to you.......

[SeekerSA]

This is indeed a thought provoking topic.  While reading this two things came to memory;

1. Peter's denial of Jesus
2. Paul's yearning to get to the afterlife

Then so much like what I see many from the eternal torment camp who only have fire insurance and particularly those who want out via a rapture.

The question itself is absurd in that "why did they allow themselves.."  Now one must assume they had a choice in the matter?  Did they? Or were they victims of prejudice?

I am no historian scholar but it is evident just on biblical accounts, these "Christians" were in direct opposition of the time in "Emperor worship".  Remember, Jesus was King of the Jews and now here are Gentiles also converting to this "Christianity."  Obviously if it were not spreading so quickly, it would not have been such a problem.

The Jews that rejected Christ were obviously in cahoots with the Roman rule of the day or possibly to take focus from their intent to depose Roman rule used the Christians as scapegoats.

The destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD was a suppression of whom? Jews? Christians?

History tends to show this as a Jewish uprising and not Christian.

I would go along with this as Jesus was not the Messiah King they expected, they expected another David.

Jesus' message was one of peace and brotherly love and so too the teachings of the apostles.

Now particularly of Paul, the afterlife was far more inviting and hence there would be no fear of death.

If the question is rejecting Jesus/denying being a Christian with the knowledge they would still be "going to heaven" then one needs to ask another question and that is;

"Is the temporal life more important than everlasting life" or "Do you really believe in eternal life"

By that I mean, if they had a choice in their martyrdom and chose to reject Jesus/Christianity knowing that eventually they would be saved anyway, (the way I read this question) then yes they could deny and "get away with it"

Anyone who has met Jesus in a real experience, cannot deny Him but then again we never will know how our survival instinct will kick in.

Personally, I do not think the martyrs had any choice in the matter.  Had they experienced Jesus and the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, they would have no fear of the eternal life having already tasted what it will be like.

2Ti 2:11  For faithful is the Word, for if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him.
2Ti 2:12  If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.
2Ti 2:13  If we do not believe Him, yet He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

Why does Jesus remain faithful?

He paid the penalty, He said it is finished. He is our Intercessor. He is the Book of Life.

Hope this helps

[arcticmonster2003]

Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).

Well...this could mean that they "willingly?" endured fire of their torturers in order to escape the eternal and unquenchable fire that is everyday life here on earth. If one can agree that our fire here sometimes seems eternal and unquenchable. The key here is their great "escape" from a place that they had never been in, if they were trying not to go to the traditionally taught hell I think it would have read as follows:

Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes that they would not enter the eternal and unquenchable fire"

I think Paul accurately describes how people of faith (me included) feel about life and death:

Philippians 1:21  For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

[AbbasChild]

First of all I would like to know from which time this quote is. Is it from A.D. 155 or does it only describe Polycarps death that occured in A.D. 155? If this was written after A.D. 400 I would say this is just a false interpretations about the event from a corrupted roman church standpoint. If that's the case it's a good way to keep people captive to the ideas of the system.

But lets say it was written at the time of the early church and we know from history that most if not all of them still believed in Universal Salvation around this time. The word 'eternal' we know comes from the greek word 'aion' and means- to keep it simple- something like 'age-lasting'.

I see it as these people despising their worldly torment to purchase 'eternal life' or literaly the 'God -kind of life (zoe) ordained unto/manifested in the ages' (for we know that 'eternal life' is to know the Father and the Son). They partook of the sufferings of Christ and so got to really know Him better, just as it was the desire of the apostle Paul. Another interpretation could be that the wanted to partake of the life of the age (the kingdom age) through partaking of the first resurrection.

This way they would have experienced a cleansing that would make it unecessary for them to go through the second death experience of the lake of the fire for greater love no one can express but him who lays down his life for his friends and even his enemies. The lake of the fire is also age-lasting (eternal) and will not be quenched until it has fulfilled its purpose. That was the meaning of unchenchable fire at this time as we know from scripture and history.

With other words this martyrs endured their suffering for the sake of knowing Christ better and/or to partake of a better resurrection as Paul calls it. If they would have denied Christ they still would have needed to go through the fire, they knew that. It was also common knowledge that the blood of the martyrs was the seed of the 'church' . Just like their Lord this people layd down their lives for the salvation of others and by partaking of His sufferings they will share in His power (of love) also in the first resurrection. In that sense they are really an example for us who believe in Father's perfect plan for the ages because they laid down their lives out of love for their Father and Lord and out of love for their enemies. They did not od that because of fear of 'everlasting torment'.

[Kratos]

I do not think that you have to believe in Hell to be willing to die pleasing your Lord and First Love. I don't believe in an eternal Hell and I would die for Christ. Besides, saved men do not fear Hell anyway. Does any Bible believing Christian think they will loose their salvation for what they do after being saved even if it is wrong and done to save our mortal lives? Salvation is not based on what we do, but on what He did for us.

As far as the quote of why others did what they did, this would seem to be conjecture based on the beliefs of the one conjecturing (is that a word).

John

[Peacetroll]

Can any of you help me with this? And indeed with a uni take on 2 Timothy 2:12 (if we deny him, he will deny us)? I've got to preach on that verse on Sunday and I'm struggling....

As I wrote previously, you all will continue to struggle with WHY the apostles and early prophets would risk their lives if ALL human kind are to be saved in the end.

It just does not add up, it makes no sense from any perspective.

For if we know in the long run Jesus will save all (including Balaam and the evil Pharisee's who Jesus chastised), then nobody would ever put their families and their own lives in harms way.

May Christ bless you in pure understanding (purer then my own).

Peace in Christ.

[Michele]

As I wrote previously, you all will continue to struggle with WHY the apostles and early prophets would risk their lives if ALL human kind are to be saved in the end.

It just does not add up, it makes no sense from any perspective.

For if we know in the long run Jesus will save all (including Balaam and the evil Pharisee's who Jesus chastised), then nobody would ever put their families and their own lives in harms way.

IMO.......it makes perfect sense....that which is perfect and True cannot be harmed because It's eternal.......I believe many of the early Christians could see this.  Love is forever.......eternal.

In believing that death is not the end, but the beginning for all........it puts a whole new spin on things........and gives a NEW perspective.

Is death the doorway to a hopeless end........or an endless hope?

[Craig]

I get flabbergasted at these questions. Common sense dictates, that any time you remove the authority of one individual through a knowledge, that individual will kill the knowledge to remain in control. How many churches would lose their incomes if you taught them, they are not cursed with a cursed if you do not tithe? They built a lie in order to keep the revenues, and when a person comes and teaches them they are set free from this, how will the PASTOR of that church react, if he was in it for the job? He would rebuke him.

Good news you are not cursed for not tithing anymore! Bad news, your pastor and church directors are going to throw you out if you tell anyone about it.

[Michele]

exactly Craig :thumbsup:.......I can see people wanting to die for the Faith (now that I understand UR).....for the right reasons and motivations........not for fear based reasons.

.......when I believed in ET........being a martyr seemed like a way for someone to be guaranteed a place in heaven.

[hopeful]

Even back when I reluctantly believed in eternal torment, I never once thought that the martyrs who died rather than deny Christ, did so to avoid eternal torment.  They simply loved the Lord and didn't want to deny him!   :dontknow:

[Craig]

Even back when I reluctantly believed in eternal torment, I never once thought that the martyrs who died rather than deny Christ, did so to avoid eternal torment.  They simply loved the Lord and didn't want to deny him!   :dontknow:

There are many stories of martyrs who died not to avoid punishment, but because they perservered in what they knew was true. How many Buddists died in that protest against their military government? Did they die because they were afraid of going to a more horrible place? Or did they die because they refused to acknowledge the government and believed the democracy was needed. If the monks recanted that democracy was needed in order to save their lives, what kind of protest did they perform? What was the point, if the truth couldn't be heard? The truth is, democracy is better then military rule. They were going to die for what was right.

So questions like: Why did early believers allow themselves to be martyred if they believed in UR?

Presupposes that we can live a sinful life, because we are saved anyways. What immature pile of rubbish!

[martincisneros]

I'll probably have more to say on this topic later 'cause I'm still in the euphoria of something else going on right now.  But, after I saw UR - that's when martyrdom never looked so dang good!!!!!!!

Take a newbie that's really really really really really from their Bibles seen UR, and they'd be the easiest to ship to some very very intolerant Muslim land - or anywhere else.

The Gospel never looks as sweet as when it's finally a complete victory in your mind without the "and," "if," or "but" about it :icon_king:

[AbbasChild]

I'll probably have more to say on this topic later 'cause I'm still in the euphoria of something else going on right now.  But, after I saw UR - that's when martyrdom never looked so dang good!!!!!!!

Take a newbie that's really really really really really from their Bibles seen UR, and they'd be the easiest to ship to some very very intolerant Muslim land - or anywhere else.

The Gospel never looks as sweet as when it's finally a complete victory in your mind without the "and," "if," or "but" about it :icon_king:

That's so true. Welcome back!

[Michele]

I'll probably have more to say on this topic later 'cause I'm still in the euphoria of something else going on right now.  But, after I saw UR - that's when martyrdom never looked so dang good!!!!!!!

Take a newbie that's really really really really really from their Bibles seen UR, and they'd be the easiest to ship to some very very intolerant Muslim land - or anywhere else.

The Gospel never looks as sweet as when it's finally a complete victory in your mind without the "and," "if," or "but" about it :icon_king:

I like that martincisneros! :thumbsup:

[Peacetroll]

Matthew 10:21-23
And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.


Talking about being a martyr and being one are two totally different things.

When death looks one in the eyes, and you can simply backpeddle to get away from it (cause gee, all people are gonna be saved anyhow), back peddling is exactly what most everyone will do. :dontknow:

But on the other hand, if one believes that to deny their faith in Christ is to be denied by him, then the motivation is 1000 times stronger to stick with one's conviction to the very end.

I've been on both ends of the stick, and the motivation for me to do right (stick with my faith in Christ) is much stronger now, for me then when I was a URist.  And that is the truth, straight and simple.

My two cents.

[Michele]

When death looks one in the eyes, and you can simply backpeddle to get away from it (cause gee, all people are gonna be saved anyhow), back peddling is exactly what most everyone will do.

That's only if you're afraid to die......afraid of the pain.......or of  the unknown......

The thing is.....we don't know the individual mind frames of each person when or prior to when they were killed.  We don't know if they were in a state of suffering and fear just prior or a state of unimaginable bliss. 

From experience I'll tell you that when the pain gets unbearable.....you go through a transition where you leave the body.

[Taffy]

rom experience I'll tell you that when the pain gets unbearable.....you go through a transition where you leave the body.

Hi Sg...

Ive suffered much pain in this body...and some of it has been  most unbearable...but ive yet to leave this body..Morphine normally Kills the physical  pain but the after affects are horrifc...

if I ever experience what you have..ill let ya know :icon_flower:

Blessings Taffy.

[Michele]

I'm sorry you've been through that Taffy :sigh:  :HeartThrob:

Once thing for sure is that each person deals with pain a little differently, and for me I feel a deeper understanding of the suffering of others (the heart of suffering) now.  My experiences were due to pregnancy complications with my first 2 kids.  I'll tell you this.....FEAR has a way of making pain much worse than what it is.  I was in a much better state of mind with my 3rd child.

BTW, with one of the experiences they tried morphine and it didn't work on me......they kept upping the dosage, and after 30 minutes gave up and just put me under general anesthesia.

With my first child......no morhphine was involved 6 hours of excruciating pain, and that was when I had an OBE......feels like you are literally beside yourself.

Another thing I would like to mention here is that there are people that actually put themselves through the crucifixtion each year....They say that they experience a closeness and deeper understanding of Christ's suffering by experiencing the pain of hands and feet being nailed on the cross.

There was a documentary I watched recently about this, and it was eye opnening to say the least.  These people weren't trying to earn their way to heaven at all.....but they gained deeper spiritual understanding through their hurt.  The program was difficult to watch, but I learned much from it........and now I see that suffering can be a good thing.

Perhaps the martyers knew that they could profoundly impact the lives of others through their death.

[Taffy]

I'm sorry you've been through that Taffy :sigh:  :HeartThrob:

Once thing for sure is that each person deals with pain a little differently, and for me I feel a deeper understanding of the suffering of others (the heart of suffering) now.  My experiences were due to pregnancy complications with my first 2 kids.  I'll tell you this.....FEAR has a way of making pain much worse than what it is.  I was in a much better state of mind with my 3rd child.

BTW, with one of the experiences they tried morphine and it didn't work on me......they kept upping the dosage, and after 30 minutes gave up and just put me under general anesthesia.

With my first child......no morhphine was involved 6 hours of excruciating pain, and that was when I had an OBE......feels like you are literally beside yourself.

Another thing I would like to mention here is that there are people that actually put themselves through the crucifixtion each year....They say that they experience a closeness and deeper understanding of Christ's suffering by experiencing the pain of hands and feet being nailed on the cross.

There was a documentary I watched recently about this, and it was eye opnening to say the least.  These people weren't trying to earn their way to heaven at all.....but they gained deeper spiritual understanding through their hurt.  The program was difficult to watch, but I learned much from it........and now I see that suffering can be a good thing.

Perhaps the martyers knew that they could profoundly impact the lives of others through their death.

Hey Sg

Thanks for sharing your suffering with Me , being a man i would never know the travail of Child birth n the way youve described , altho Ive was at the Birth of all ours ,im thankful to have that experience...

At best I can empathise with this

and now I see that suffering can be a good thing

Oh yes. I truly believe its A GOOD thing ...It sure helps you feel THE PAIN of others suffering...pain is pain...be it mental or physical....IT HURTS.........to suffer long  is patience.

Thro the reality, its taught me much, thesedays I make it my companion , if its not there i feel somewhat lost...tis true.

we all learn thro circumstances which do differ...but the PATH leads to the SAME DOOR....

Thanks again for sharing AG... :icon_flower:

Blessings
Taffy "le foot"

[Michele]

Thro the reality, its taught me much, thesedays I make it my companion , if its not there i feel somewhat lost...tis true.

That's so interesting Taffy......and you know I get that.....it's a strange thing, but makes sense to me.

Thanks for sharing too bro "le foot".  :HeartThrob:

Oh yes. I truly believe its A GOOD thing ...It sure helps you feel THE PAIN of others suffering...pain is pain...be it mental or physical....IT HURTS.........to suffer long  is patience.

a lot of wisdom in that.  :thumbsup:

[martincisneros]

Why did early believers allow themselves to be martyred if there was nothing to fear?  No boogey man that could suck them into Hell with his pitchfork??

Uh...

duhuh!

The chance to tell people about the Jesus that had wiped away all of their shame over their weaknesses, insufficiencies, and had introduced them to life and that more abundantly.  The chance to calm people's fears 'cause whether life's long or short, you don't have to be afraid 'cause Jesus has already conquered all that was conquering you!  And He's got the keys to set you free from all of that former mess.  You can feel clean, innocent, virgin, and throw your arms up to a Daddy that'll by no means ever allow anything to harm you any more, Who's richer than Solomon, and Who owns the ball field so that the game's not over until you win!!!  There's sooooo much more to run to through Jesus Christ than there is to run away from!!!!

Does a parent really need for there to be a stalker, a rapist, a murderer, and a sadist to be on the prowl for their children before their children can be convinced of their parent's love for them?  Is their parent's love really magnified by the contrast with a stalker, a rapist, a murderer, a child abuser, and a sadist in their lives -- for even a short season??  Or is the parent's love magnified in the child's eyes by itself; by it's own inherent existence and goodness; it's wonders, it's generocity, and it's freedom from a condemning attitude???

[AbbasChild]

Why did early believers allow themselves to be martyred if there was nothing to fear?  No boogey man that could suck them into Hell with his pitchfork??

Uh...

duhuh!

The chance to tell people about the Jesus that had wiped away all of their shame over their weaknesses, insufficiencies, and had introduced them to life and that more abundantly.  The chance to calm people's fears 'cause whether life's long or short, you don't have to be afraid 'cause Jesus has already conquered all that was conquering you!  And He's got the keys to set you free from all of that former mess.  You can feel clean, innocent, virgin, and throw your arms up to a Daddy that'll by no means ever allow anything to harm you any more, Who's richer than Solomon, and Who owns the ball field so that the game's not over until you win!!!  There's sooooo much more to run to through Jesus Christ than there is to run away from!!!!

Does a parent really need for there to be a stalker, a rapist, a murderer, and a sadist to be on the prowl for their children before their children can be convinced of their parent's love for them?  Is their parent's love really magnified by the contrast with a stalker, a rapist, a murderer, a child abuser, and a sadist in their lives -- for even a short season??  Or is the parent's love magnified in the child's eyes by itself; by it's own inherent existence and goodness; it's wonders, it's generocity, and it's freedom from a condemning attitude???

:thumbsup: I couldn't say it any better!

[Paul Hazelwood]

Here's an email request:

Guys (and gal!)

I'm wrestling with how to understand martyrdom from a uni perspective: if the early martyrs had believed that they would eventually be saved anyway, even if they, say, worshipped the emperor or denied Christ, might they not have taken the stand they did?

Why are we always focused upon doing something out of fear instead of Love? Fear of eternal torment is the only thing that would make it worthwhile?   

But the other aspect is human ability.  Did they of their own free will have the ability to take that stand or was they empowered through Christ as we see in the scriptures?

Jn 15:5  "I am the Grapevine. You are the branches. He who is remaining in Me, and I in him, this one is bringing forth much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

All through scripture we see God demonstrating his power, but also reassuring us that no matter how it appears, it is all of Love.