Who can forgive sin?

[WhiteWings]

Lets take theft as an example. God can forgive that sin.
If the person that got robbed forgives the thief is the sin really forgiven?
Or does God also have to forgive it?

Note:This is not about Jesus died for our sins and God (eventualy) always forgives.

[Gab]

"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." (Matthew 6:14-15)

The way I see it, forgiveness on our part is more for our sake than the sake of the one being forgiven.  If, for example, someone murders someone we love, and we forgive that person, then the judge will still find him guilty of the crime, and he will still be punished, but we will not be punished alongside him by absorbing his hatred into our being.  The act of forgiveness may cause some change in the one who sinned as well, but it is guaranteed to positively affect the one who forgives.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

This passage springs to mind also.

John 20:23
If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

[jesushandsarekindhands]

So if WE don't forgive men, THEY are not forgiven by God, and God DOES NOT forgive us when we sin! 

[jabcat]

"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." (Matthew 16:14-15)

The way I see it, forgiveness on our part is more for our sake than the sake of the one being forgiven.  If, for example, someone murders someone we love, and we forgive that person, then the judge will still find him guilty of the crime, and he will still be punished, but we will not be punished alongside him by absorbing his hatred into our being.  The act of forgiveness may cause some change in the one who sinned as well, but it is guaranteed to positively affect the one who forgives.

I see it that way as well Gab.  I'll admit, I do wonder about the "what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven" passage, as well as a passage somewhere about praying for someone and their sins will be forgiven.  :dontknow:

[jabcat]

That was spoken to the 12 disciples I believe, not sure to what extent that applies to us as well.  Not saying it doesn't, just not sure how all that comes together.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

That was spoken to the 12 disciples I believe, not sure to what extent that applies to us as well.  Not saying it doesn't, just not sure how all that comes together.

I think its like the story of sodom, when God is about to destroy it and the guy says "what if there are 90 nice people in it, 50 nice people? 10 nice people?" 
I think God matches or 'betters' what the best is a human can do...If we show love, God betters it, if we show more love, God betters that (or matches it).

[Molly]

That was spoken to the 12 disciples I believe, not sure to what extent that applies to us as well.  Not saying it doesn't, just not sure how all that comes together.

It was spoken to the Melchizedek priesthood.  You are a ittle rock [Peter] and on this big rock [all the priests] I will build my church.  This is the stone uncut by human hands of Daniel 2.

[Gab]

I see it that way as well Gab.  I'll admit, I do wonder about the "what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven" passage, as well as a passage somewhere about praying for someone and their sins will be forgiven.  :dontknow:

Good points.  I'm not sure about that, although intuitively it feels that it can't possibly mean what on the surface it seems to mean - surely one who repents cannot have his sins remain unforgiven by God simply because they were done against a vindictive soul on Earth, and surely one who sins must repent for those sins themselves.

[jabcat]

surely one who sins must repent for those sins themselves.

I'd think so... :Chinscratch:

[WhiteWings]

The way I see it, forgiveness on our part is more for our sake than the sake of the one being forgiven.  If, for example, someone murders someone we love, and we forgive that person, then the judge will still find him guilty of the crime, and he will still be punished, but we will not be punished alongside him by absorbing his hatred into our being.  The act of forgiveness may cause some change in the one who sinned as well, but it is guaranteed to positively affect the one who forgives.

I'm totally ignoring earthly laws and judges in this thread.
Is the murderer who is forgiven sitill a murderer in the eyes of the Divine Judge?
I'll make it easier and make the murderer a thief because someone who was killed can no longer forgive the killer.
Well perhaps on the other side of the grave....

[Gab]

I'm totally ignoring earthly laws and judges in this thread.
Is the murderer who is forgiven sitill a murderer in the eyes of the Divine Judge?
I'll make it easier and make the murderer a thief because someone who was killed can no longer forgive the killer.
Well perhaps on the other side of the grave....

I think he still is.  What I think we have to keep in mind is that the action described in Matthew 25:46 is chastisement, not punishment.  It's something given for the person's own benefit, to improve them and perfect them in the eyes of God.  It's not vengeance, intended to tip the cosmic scales back into balance.  For that reason, I think that the frame of mind of the one who was affected by the sin is irrelevant.  When we forgive, we release ourselves, not the one who sinned.  If we released that person from his sin by forgiving him, then how would the person learn to sin no more?

[WhiteWings]

"Father please forgive them for they don't know what they do!"
Was Jesus just 'releasing' Himself with those words? Or was he also helping "them"?

[jabcat]

"Father please forgive them for they don't know what they do!"
Was Jesus just 'releasing' Himself with those words? Or was he also helping "them"?

This is JMO - not trying to back it up with specific scriptures, it's just sort of "off the top of my head".

I see Jesus as different, in that I believe He could actually forgive sin ("is it easier to say thy sins be forgiven thee, or take up your bed and walk").  Still, and not sure I really understand why, He asked His Father to do so in that situation.  It does remind me of the scripture, "there is one mediator between God and man...Jesus Christ".  So I'd say He was helping them.

[martincisneros]

As far as this:

John 20:23
If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Molly's on the right track with:

It was spoken to the Melchizedek priesthood.  You are a ittle rock [Peter] and on this big rock [all the priests] I will build my church.

Luke 6:40, John 15:7, Colossians 3:17, Hebrews 6:5, Mark 2:1-12, Mark 4:12, and Matthew 13:15 comes to mind.  You're dealing with multiple things here: authority, lifestyle, maturity, and power. This is an area of the 1Corinthians chapters 12 thru 14 gifts of the spirit that's on the same level as healing -- actually a manifestation of the gifts of healings, discerning of spirits, and special faith, according to Lord Jesus in Mark 2 and a lot of other supporting passages that I'm trying to be brief with highlights about to not complicate this conversation, and there's also the issue of maturity of being a 1Thessalonians 3:10, Philemon 1:16, Hebrews 5:11-14, 1John 2:12-14 father in the spirit, or father in the faith some would choose to say instead, because as I've always insisted, the Galatians 5 fruit of the recreated human spirit that grow out of living in Colossians 3:16-17 and 1John 2:5-6 will do absolutely everything that the 1Corinthians chapters 12-14 gifts of the Holy Spirit will do.

This forgiveness/unforgiveness or what's called in 1Corinthians 6:2-3 of judging the world and the things pertaining to this life and the lives of believers grows out of preaching the Gospel.  As far as types/shadows in the Law of Moses, it would be good to review the reasons why someone might be banished from the camp of Israel, i.e. excommunicated and what the typology of that means elsewhere and as it relates to the New Covenant.  2Samuel 14:14 also comes to mind regarding this New Testament principle of unforgiveness by faith until someone's restored to 2Corinthians 7 repentance and salvation.  This gets over quickly into the strong meat of the Word and obviously you have to understand Word of Faith (i.e. Mark 4; Mark 11:22-26) and UR theologies as foundational that the ultimate goal is restitution, restoration, and recovery and you're dealing with an area of binding and loosing that most people aren't sufficiently grown in the Written Word as a disciple to operate proficiently in 'cause you're bringing in the ministry of angels regarding this such as a passage out of Exodus 23 where there's an angel of unforgiveness that's assigned when there's land to be taken by God's progressing people. 

This isn't just common pettiness or soft hearted mush or walking on egg shells about being afraid of burning to the ages of ages or hoping that someone else does.  This has to do with a Kingdom mindset that only He can reveal regarding walking in the New Covenant where as Isaiah 54:17 talks about, you're able to condemn a tongue that rises against you in judgment and as Psalm 112 that describes the lifestyle that is backed by this kind of power indicates, the desire of the wicked will perish.  This subject gets heavy quickly 'cause it's related to someone that's already got all of their issues resolved and is just building the Kingdom with Him rather than living for themselves 'cause there's not randomness to this.  You can literally freeze up someone's assets with New Testament unforgiveness by faith or by the Holy Spirit and it's not something to be played with, but just something to be aware of, that this does exist under the administration of grace and is related in a back handed way to the Galatians 4:19 process of forming Christ in someone by faith. 

It's a discipleship tool when you're to the place of being able to say, like St. Paul, "imitate me as I imitate Christ" with full assurance of your consistency in following the pattern in Scripture as we're encouraged to in Philippians 3:17, Colossians 2:6-7, and Colossians 3:12-17.  But to answer WhiteWhings question, there is a point of discipleship to the Written Word to where so much of what you're doing is in His Name and you're growing skillful in it to where, yes, you forgive and they're released by God from it, or vice versa and they're fried sunny side up or over easy just as you're laying hands on someone and speaking the Word to them and they're healed or blinded like Elymas the Sorcerer in the book of Acts.  It's a part of the ministries of healing and of discipleship that even most Pentecostals have never heard of.

According to Philippians 1, it's one of the 2Corinthians 8:7-9 graces that we're supposed to be growing in along with every other New Testament grace that we grow in by faith, diligence, and progressing love, sanctification, and wisdom.  It's in that category of Philippians chapter 1 grace where the authority has grown through a diligent lifestyle of conformity to Him, letting the Written Word dwell in you richly in all wisdom, and of being an intercessor for others that literally there's a grace mentioned in Philippians chapter 1 of being able to defend the Gospel.  It's possible to totally mess someone else up supernaturally by faith if their actions are deliberately messing up the salvation of others.  But it's not going to happen for someone just because of their hurt pride, or other hurt feelings, or because otherwise they'll look bad or in some other way that would be "tempting Him" as we're advised in the Bible against.

[Molly]

15 For this people's heart has grown callous;

    their ears are hard of hearing,

    and they have shut their eyes;

    otherwise they might see with their eyes

    and hear with their ears,

    understand with their hearts

    and turn back—

    and I would cure them.

--Mat 13





9 And He replied:

    Go! Say to these people:
    Keep listening, but do not understand;
    keep looking, but do not perceive.

    10 Dull the minds of these people;

    deafen their ears and blind their eyes;
    otherwise they might see with their eyes
    and hear with their ears,
    understand with their minds,
    turn back, and be healed.

--Isa 6



Matthew 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


   

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Two things came to mind reading this thread. One, the fact that Saul became Paul after murdering Stephen. He stood there holding his garments while the others under his authority stoned him to death. Stephen forgave him on the spot, as he was dying, which opened up heaven for both of them (Paul said he knew a man once caught up to the third heaven). Truly, I think it could be said that without Stephen, there might have been no Paul, thus making life the scripture, whatsoever sins YOU REMIT, they are remitted.

And two, something He showed me pertaining to how to pray for healing for others, in the laying on of hands, in the beginning of my walk when my faith for healing was weakest. Our carnal mind is the biggest obstacle to us and especially our faith. He showed me to "neutralize" it by making it become part of the solution, instead of the problem.

He told me when I prayed to think of His Spirit as light coming thru my hands from my innermost being (Him) and to literally picture this. By engaging my carnal mind into doing something in AGREEMENT with my Spirit man, it kept it from going into doubt and unbelief at that moment, and thereby blocking His Spirit from moving.

He showed me this principle is as, what you bind on earth (thru the DIS-agreement of the carnal mind), is also bound in heaven (realm of His Spirit). But what you loose on earth (thru the AGREEMENT of your carnal mind), is loosed in heaven (realm of His Spirit).

So by "disciplining" your carnal mind to come into agreement with your Spirit, then healing is loosed in heaven. I saw many miracle healings of people over the first few years from this course of action that He explained to me.

After a time, I no longer had to do this "exercise" to pray for healing because my faith and my mastery over doubt and unbelief trying to raise up in my carnal mind where healing was concerned, had grown to where it was no longer needed to make my carnal mind submit.

If He said it, then I knew He was going to do it, else He would not have spoken it, and I could lay hands on them in total faith KNOWING His Spirit was going to move to bring about what He had spoken (thru the speaking gifts of the Spirit). Blessings....

[sheila]

 Great posts!

   I was just given something this morning in regard to Saul/Paul and that CHANGE

    Notice it was at Noon and a bright light flashed[twinkling of God's eye] from heaven?

   then Saul heard the Lord's voice] Why are you persecuting me

   this has to do also with the receiving them back in as life from the dead[they that persecute were blind]

   the conversion of former persecutors fulfills  those who are of the synagogue of satan-I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I loved you..

   we must also be very careful of binding in heaven and earth

on another level. If we don't forgive all sins of all men

[keep putting up with in love and freely forgive] Heaven will be

bound for us too.  That is why I'm so concerned with this

punishment mentality of "God will continue punishment in

heaven

because some saints won't release[forgive] some of their

brothers. Don't you want God's eye to twinkle on them and

change them?  That is the fire that comes down from heaven

and devours the enemies.

     in that New Earth ...Now the dwelling of God is with men,

  and He will LIVE with them...don't you want God to dwell in your brothers?  You MUST BIND SATAN IN HEAVEN BY FREELY FORGIVING ALL MEN THEIR SINS