John 6.53

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Eating his flesh is eating his word (the bread of life).

Matthew 4:4:
But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


The life is in the blood, so we drink his blood.

(Gen9:4) "For the life of the flesh is in the blood...for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul"(Lev17:11)

What I like most about passages like the ones we are discussing is that they make it perfectly clear that the Bible is a closed Book to the natural or carnal man. It is truly a treasure hidden in a field. It closes the discussion as to whether God's words should be read and taken literally or spiritually. I'm not saying His words are not helpful in the physical realm, they are, but the true life in them is in the spiritual IMO.

Thanks j.

Belserv, are things clearer for you now? Do you see what Sparrow is saying?

cp

Claypot, i really believe that when people read the Bible they must do so with a spirit of love, remembering that God is good, perfect even; and all loving, all knowing, all forgiving, all compassionate etc. 

Then when people come across these 'hard' passages they don't understand, rather than think 'whats going on??!!! This sounds horrible!!, they will instead think 'Well....God is all loving, so what does he mean when he says this, i know for sure it can't be anything bad he meant because God is love'.

And then they can go and read about what the passage further, and what the passage really means, and who God was saying what he was saying to and why he said it at that time, etc etc etc.

[claypot]

I enjoyed reading that Beloved Servant.  It is so true. :thumbsup:

   Also ,  if we eat  tainted or poisoned  truth,   we get spiritually sick!  Meaning false doctrine  mixed with truth.

So true fa. I think of some of my brothers and sisters who believe in the eternal torment doctrine and how they are forced to say outright that they will have pleasure in viewing people being tormented. They believe it must be a good thing or God would not allow it. I think this is very sick and is the outcome of poisoned and tainted truth as you put it.

I am not judging these Brothers and Sisters, I just am making an observation.

cp

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye  eat  the  flesh  of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.  54  Whoso eateth my  flesh , and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.  55  For my  flesh  is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.  56  He that eateth my  flesh , and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

What kind of person asks another to eat his flesh and drink his blood?

I mean this is weird even for Jesus isn't it?

If anyone, and I mean anyone, said something even remotely similar, we would either lock him up or run like crazy.

Why did Jesus go to such lengths to be so bizaar and unapproachable?

cp

I think that Jesus said that to those people at that time so that 'many' (who did not understand him' would leave.  He needed the people who understood him. (By spirit).

Read the entire thing with all you have learned now on the forums and see what Jesus really meant.

35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

41At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?"

43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'[d] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
Many Disciples Desert Jesus
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"

61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.

68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."

[Beloved Servant]

Eating his flesh is eating his word (the bread of life).

Matthew 4:4:
But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


The life is in the blood, so we drink his blood.

(Gen9:4) "For the life of the flesh is in the blood...for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul"(Lev17:11)

What I like most about passages like the ones we are discussing is that they make it perfectly clear that the Bible is a closed Book to the natural or carnal man. It is truly a treasure hidden in a field. It closes the discussion as to whether God's words should be read and taken literally or spiritually. I'm not saying His words are not helpful in the physical realm, they are, but the true life in them is in the spiritual IMO.

Thanks j.

Belserv, are things clearer for you now? Do you see what Sparrow is saying?

cp

God is Love :HeartThrob:
I think that's what she said, but I'm not sure...just pondering I guess.

[claypot]

Now you got it. That's exactly what Sparrow says all the time for those who have eyes to see.

cp

[Cardinal]

Card, you wrote..........

[You have to remember His audience; He was talking to Jewish converts who were familiar with the concept of the priesthood that literally ate the tithes, and so He was painting a picture of the sacrificial lamb that they, as the soon to be spiritual priesthood (formed on the day of Pentecost), would consume.

So I doubt they batted an eye, except to marvel over how He was to become the sacrifice. I think they all had a lot to learn from the Spirit after the day of Pentecost as well, just as we do, as they had to be told what manner in which He would die, which to me shows they weren't yet all 'with the program', so to speak. Blessings......]

As I continued reading after Jesus talked of eating His flesh and drinking His blood, I noticed that many thought He was nuts and many quit following Him. I think they 'batted an eye' at least but I do get your drift about these words not being as shocking to them as it would be today. I know you also see deeply into the spiritual realm and I appreciate your input here. Thanks!

:cloud9: They left Him when He revealed the manner in which He should die. Many leave Him still when they realize the manner in which THEY are going to die, with Him.

Which his why it says that man is in bondage to the fear of death all of his days. He's in in bondage to the fear of dying to self all of his days, UNTIL he is birthed into the NEW DAY, ie. Christ, the 7th day with no part darkness. Blessings....

[Seth]

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye  eat  the  flesh  of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.  54  Whoso eateth my  flesh , and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.  55  For my  flesh  is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.  56  He that eateth my  flesh , and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

What kind of person asks another to eat his flesh and drink his blood?

I mean this is weird even for Jesus isn't it?

If anyone, and I mean anyone, said something even remotely similar, we would either lock him up or run like crazy.

Why did Jesus go to such lengths to be so bizaar and unapproachable?

cp

I haven't read through the responses yet, but I just wanted to share my thoughts on this, which may have been hit on already.

First, Jesus did NOT want everyone to understand him. God wanted him killed. He was the lamb to be led to the slaughter. Now who would lead Jesus to the slaughter if they all understood exactly what he meant? Jesus provoked certain people to kill him.

1 John 5:8 says that the water, blood and spirit are one and that they are witnesses that agree. Contextually they all agree with the testimony revealed in verse 11: "And this is the testimony: God has given us aionios life (life of the age), and this life is in his Son."

So when Jesus said "You must drink my blood" what is Christ's meaning there? What is the testimony: LIFE. He is saying: you must live by the Life that I promise to give. But that life is a RESURRECTED life, which is why Jesus died. To die, he must be killed. To be killed, there must be those who WANT to kill him.

What is easer to kill, the Messiah, or one who seems like a lunatic who says weird things?

[martincisneros]

First, Jesus did NOT want everyone to understand him.

No one speaks with the intent that no one should understand them, if they're in their right mind. Now some teachers will speak with the intent that you understand them LATER instead of sooner.

Now who would lead Jesus to the slaughter if they all understood exactly what he meant?

It doesn't take someone misunderstanding someone for them to have issues with them based upon their own issues rather than the issues of the speaker.  Lots of people, even innocent people, have been very clearly understood and yet folks have taken great delight in killing them anyway.

What is easer to kill, the Messiah, or one who seems like a lunatic who says weird things?

No one needs to be perceived as a lunatic to be thought too dangerous [to one's own agenda] to live.  Judas tried to make Him reveal Himself to the world by forcing Him into a dangerous position.  That's what a Judas will always do with trying to prematurely force someone's hand.  It's really a spirit of rape, if you think it through logically and Scripturally.  Neither Messiah nor a lunatic would NECESSARILY be easier to kill than the other.  Gadarene demoniac comes to mind as someone equally as difficult to kill as a Messiah figure, and equally feared.

[Seth]

First, Jesus did NOT want everyone to understand him.

No one speaks with the intent that no one should understand them, if they're in their right mind. Now some teachers will speak with the intent that you understand them LATER instead of sooner.

Good point.  :thumbsup: That is what I meant though, essentially. They weren't meant to understand at that moment.

It doesn't take someone misunderstanding someone for them to have issues with them based upon their own issues rather than the issues of the speaker.  Lots of people, even innocent people, have been very clearly understood and yet folks have taken great delight in killing them anyway.

That is true, but this is a more unique situation in which the Jews wanted their Messiah to come. Not understanding his words was part in parcel to not understanding he was the Messiah. Case in point:

1 Cor 2
7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

No one needs to be perceived as a lunatic to be thought too dangerous [to one's own agenda] to live. 

See above.

[claypot]

God hides as good as He reveals. I think of the time when Jesus told people not to tell others about Him.

I think of Jesus thanking God that He hides things from some while revealing things to some.

cp

[Seth]

God hides as good as He reveals. I think of the time when Jesus told people not to tell others about Him.

I think of Jesus thanking God that He hides things from some while revealing things to some.

cp

Amen.

Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

[Cardinal]

That is true, but this is a more unique situation in which the Jews wanted their Messiah to come.

:cloud9: The ordinary people wanted their Messiah to come; the ruling Pharisees and the Sadducees, uh........not so much. He was perceived as a threat because it meant their "kingdom" they had corrupted to suit themselves had come to an end, ie. they were out of a job, no more "middle men" doing sacrifices were needed, ALL could come to the Father thru the Son.

They understood that very well thru what He said when they tempted Him by saying He did the miracles thru devils. They were unwilling to be "unemployed". Blessings...

[Seth]

:cloud9: The ordinary people wanted their Messiah to come; the ruling Pharisees and the Sadducees, uh........not so much. He was perceived as a threat because it meant their "kingdom" they had corrupted to suit themselves had come to an end, ie. they were out of a job, no more "middle men" doing sacrifices were needed, ALL could come to the Father thru the Son.

They understood that very well thru what He said when they tempted Him by saying He did the miracles thru devils. They were unwilling to be "unemployed". Blessings...

Well, maybe neither of us are in a position to say what they actually wanted, since we cannot read thoughts. In fact, Paul who was a Pharisee and persecuted the church made it clear that when he was under the Law, he struggled to do good but was a slave to sin. So I think it is too simplistic to say that the Pharisees did not want deliverance from sin, or the Messiah to come. I think they were slaves to sin which is a condition that overrides any desire to do good so that you do bad instead, it's subjection to vanity. As you would probably agree, we all have conflicting thoughts. I doubt the Pharisees were any different.

Remember it was the "ordinary people" who said "crucify him" and "let his blood be upon us and our children" (a request God has plans to fulfill in spades). So inasmuch they wanted a Messiah, they were also subverted against themselves in their own minds.

However, Christ's choice of words were spoiled food for the carnal mind, and good food for the Spiritual mind. Since none of their minds were prepared Spiritually to understand his words, they were hardened instead. That is why if they understood the mysteries, they would NOT have crucified the Lord of Glory. The fact that they didn't understand the mystery is crucial to whether or not Christ was crucified.

[Gilbert]

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye  eat  the  flesh  of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.  54  Whoso eateth my  flesh , and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.  55  For my  flesh  is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.  56  He that eateth my  flesh , and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

What kind of person asks another to eat his flesh and drink his blood?

I mean this is weird even for Jesus isn't it?

If anyone, and I mean anyone, said something even remotely similar, we would either lock him up or run like crazy.

Why did Jesus go to such lengths to be so bizaar and unapproachable?

cp

I haven't read through the responses yet, but I just wanted to share my thoughts on this, which may have been hit on already.

First, Jesus did NOT want everyone to understand him. God wanted him killed. He was the lamb to be led to the slaughter. Now who would lead Jesus to the slaughter if they all understood exactly what he meant? Jesus provoked certain people to kill him.

1 John 5:8 says that the water, blood and spirit are one and that they are witnesses that agree. Contextually they all agree with the testimony revealed in verse 11: "And this is the testimony: God has given us aionios life (life of the age), and this life is in his Son."

So when Jesus said "You must drink my blood" what is Christ's meaning there? What is the testimony: LIFE. He is saying: you must live by the Life that I promise to give. But that life is a RESURRECTED life, which is why Jesus died. To die, he must be killed. To be killed, there must be those who WANT to kill him.

What is easer to kill, the Messiah, or one who seems like a lunatic who says weird things?

Hi!

If you don't mind, I found myself disagreeing with your comment saying: "First, Jesus did NOT want everyone to understand him. God wanted him killed. He was the lamb to be led to the slaughter. Now who would lead Jesus to the slaughter if they all understood exactly what he meant? Jesus provoked certain people to kill him".

An earlier Post by 'Martincisneros' has correctly answered your comment, "Jesus did NOT want everyone to understand Him".
Here I wish specifically comment on the additional statement you made: "God wanted him [Jesus] killed".
God never wished that Jesus be killed.
God's original intent with Adam and Eve is that they would mature and develop as a spiritual man ... just like Jesus.
It was as if God had a business and wished to share it with His family; wanted to name His business 'God and Sons' [and daughters]. But Adam and Eve failed in this.
God's eternal counsel; His thoughts and intent (His Word) never returns void; His Word always accomplishes everything it set out to accomplish. So, Jesus (the Second Adam) appeared on the face of the earth and succeeded where Adam and Eve had failed.

The events of the Matthew 17:1-3 describe where Jesus was first called a "Son": "While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him."

And the Word (thoughts and intents of God) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Jesus was the "only begotten Son of God" at this point, but God's desire was that He would have many sons [daughters]. This Word of God would have gladly been accomplished in Adam and Eve too if they had chosen to obey the purpose of God for their lives.

The same event is described in Mark 9:2, "And after six days Jesus taketh [with him] Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid. And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves. And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead."

At this point in time, Jesus could have chosen to simply be 'raptured'; permit his spirtual body to absorb his natural body and joyfully sit at the right hand of His Father as the only spiritual man ... the first and only Son of God.
Instead, this is what happened:
Remember the parable of the Pearl of Great Price?
Do you see what it says about the Pearl Merchant?
Matthew 13:45-46, "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it".
The Pearl Merchant was the devil.
The devil was obsessively determined to own Jesus who was the Pearl of Great Price.
The devil then gave up all his other pearls in the heavenly transaction to bring Jesus under slavery to the powers of sin and death.
Jesus could have rightly refused this task; well, in a sense He could have.
You see? Jesus shared the very heart of God; He knew the secret desires of His Father's heart. His every waking hour was spent joyfully pleasing His heavenly Father.
So, here too, Jesus willingly laid down His life as a ransom for many; to exchange Himself for the untold thousands of other tarnished pearls (human kind) imprisoned in the kingdom of Death and Hades.
It was NOT God who demanded the ransom.
It was not God who demanded payment for sin.
It was the evil one.
God did NOT want Jesus killed. The evil one wished this; not God.

Of Jesus it is said: "Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth".
So, the devil had no claim whatsoever over Him. The devil could not pay him wages of Sin and Death because Jesus had not sinned and was therefore not deserving of such a treachery.
But Jesus willingly and knowingly offered Himself (as the Pearl of Great Price) to the evil one in exchange for all of mankind.

So, please refrain from stating that God wanted Jesus killed and other such nonsense.

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: The ordinary people wanted their Messiah to come; the ruling Pharisees and the Sadducees, uh........not so much. He was perceived as a threat because it meant their "kingdom" they had corrupted to suit themselves had come to an end, ie. they were out of a job, no more "middle men" doing sacrifices were needed, ALL could come to the Father thru the Son.

They understood that very well thru what He said when they tempted Him by saying He did the miracles thru devils. They were unwilling to be "unemployed". Blessings...

Well, maybe neither of us are in a position to say what they actually wanted, since we cannot read thoughts. In fact, Paul who was a Pharisee and persecuted the church made it clear that when he was under the Law, he struggled to do good but was a slave to sin. So I think it is too simplistic to say that the Pharisees did not want deliverance from sin, or the Messiah to come. I think they were slaves to sin which is a condition that overrides any desire to do good so that you do bad instead, it's subjection to vanity. As you would probably agree, we all have conflicting thoughts. I doubt the Pharisees were any different.

Remember it was the "ordinary people" who said "crucify him" and "let his blood be upon us and our children" (a request God has plans to fulfill in spades). So inasmuch they wanted a Messiah, they were also subverted against themselves in their own minds.

:cloud9: Hi Seth........not reading minds, just the Word, LOL........I base what I said on these observations in the Word.

Matthrew 27:17 Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ? 18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.

Additionally; the Pharisees accused Him of casting out demons (could be sicknesses, evil spirits as well) by an evil spirit. The Pharisees were well aware of the fact from Deuteronomy and other books that God set up this as a part of the OT covenant curses.

So in fact, what they were asking Him is by whose authority do you do these things (including healing the man on the Sabbath day), because we know this demon/sickness is a judgment established by God for disobedience, and carried out by Satan. So since God authorized it; for You, Jesus, to UNDO it, must mean it's an evil spirit in You, Jesus, opposing what we know by the law, is God's judgment to the flesh of men.

So Jesus did answer perfectly, telling them that if that if He was casting out what Satan had done, by Satan, then Satan's kingdom would be divided and fall, because Satan's kingdom was given by God, ie. to eat dust, the prince of this world, bringer of judgments.

But that He was casting them out by God, meant that a NEW COVENANT was in fact about to come into place in the whole, and had already come into place in the part, the part being Christ Jesus the Head, because God's kingdom is NOT divided. Which meant to them obviously, "we're out of a job", because the least in the kingdom (the children/as the disciples viewed the non priest disciples) can now cast out devils, ie. they were stripped of their authority. Blessings.....

[Seth]

If you don't mind, I found myself disagreeing with your comment saying: "First, Jesus did NOT want everyone to understand him. God wanted him killed. He was the lamb to be led to the slaughter. Now who would lead Jesus to the slaughter if they all understood exactly what he meant? Jesus provoked certain people to kill him".
An earlier Post by 'Martincisneros' has correctly answered your comment, "Jesus did NOT want everyone to understand Him".

Martin, as I understood him, did not disagree with whether Jesus did not want people to understand him. He made the good point that they were not meant to understand him until later.

Here I wish specifically comment on the additional statement you made: "God wanted him [Jesus] killed".
God never wished that Jesus be killed.

We will just have to agree to disagree. But to clarify, the word "want" that I used is not to say that God relished killing Jesus, but that God found it vital to his plan from the beginning to provide a savior to die and be resurrected. Jesus was fulfilling His father's will in doing so, not the devil's will. Unless, you believe that God was completely ignorant to what His Son was about to do. Remember, Jesus says NOBODY takes my life, I give it WILLINGLY. It so happens that was His Father's will for Christ to do that.

So, please refrain from stating that God wanted Jesus killed and other such nonsense.

It isn't nonsense.

[Seth]

:cloud9: The ordinary people wanted their Messiah to come; the ruling Pharisees and the Sadducees, uh........not so much. He was perceived as a threat because it meant their "kingdom" they had corrupted to suit themselves had come to an end, ie. they were out of a job, no more "middle men" doing sacrifices were needed, ALL could come to the Father thru the Son.

They understood that very well thru what He said when they tempted Him by saying He did the miracles thru devils. They were unwilling to be "unemployed". Blessings...

Well, maybe neither of us are in a position to say what they actually wanted, since we cannot read thoughts. In fact, Paul who was a Pharisee and persecuted the church made it clear that when he was under the Law, he struggled to do good but was a slave to sin. So I think it is too simplistic to say that the Pharisees did not want deliverance from sin, or the Messiah to come. I think they were slaves to sin which is a condition that overrides any desire to do good so that you do bad instead, it's subjection to vanity. As you would probably agree, we all have conflicting thoughts. I doubt the Pharisees were any different.

Remember it was the "ordinary people" who said "crucify him" and "let his blood be upon us and our children" (a request God has plans to fulfill in spades). So inasmuch they wanted a Messiah, they were also subverted against themselves in their own minds.

:cloud9: Hi Seth........not reading minds, just the Word, LOL........I base what I said on these observations in the Word.

Matthrew 27:17 Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ? 18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.

Additionally; the Pharisees accused Him of casting out demons (could be sicknesses, evil spirits as well) by an evil spirit. The Pharisees were well aware of the fact from Deuteronomy and other books that God set up this as a part of the OT covenant curses.

So in fact, what they were asking Him is by whose authority do you do these things (including healing the man on the Sabbath day), because we know this demon/sickness is a judgment established by God for disobedience, and carried out by Satan. So since God authorized it; for You, Jesus, to UNDO it, must mean it's an evil spirit in You, Jesus, opposing what we know by the law, is God's judgment to the flesh of men.

So Jesus did answer perfectly, telling them that if that if He was casting out what Satan had done, by Satan, then Satan's kingdom would be divided and fall, because Satan's kingdom was given by God, ie. to eat dust, the prince of this world, bringer of judgments.

But that He was casting them out by God, meant that a NEW COVENANT was in fact about to come into place in the whole, and had already come into place in the part, the part being Christ Jesus the Head, because God's kingdom is NOT divided. Which meant to them obviously, "we're out of a job", because the least in the kingdom (the children/as the disciples viewed the non priest disciples) can now cast out devils, ie. they were stripped of their authority. Blessings.....

True, Jesus did answer them. But did they truly understand? If they thought he was a man of God and had power from God to be a great prophet of sorts, did they understand him to be the Lord of Glory? I don't believe so. Even if they thought him to be the Messiah, I think it was a false concept of the Messiah they had, even those who believed. I think nobody knew Christ for who he truly was or they would not have killed him as the Bible says.

John 1: 10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

What I am getting as is that there are very many layers to our desire and understanding. Sometimes I desire one thing, and simultaneously desire the contrary. It's a conflict. You see what I mean? The Pharisees were no different. They may have had intellectual understandings about things, yet at the same time, they knew him not and did not receive him.

This is precisely why Paul said:

1 Cor 2:7-8
No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

So this goes back to my main point in answering the first post. Jesus spoke in terms relating to physical things, knowing that the people could not receive those things. Christ knew that their carnal minds would BLOCK his statement about "drinking his blood" and that their reactions would lead them away from Him. He knew that because he could read their very thoughts and knew their hearts even better than they did.

Had they understood the mystery of "drinking his blood" then they would not have crucified Him, because they would have known the secret wisdom, the truth that would set them free: Christ was talking about his Spiritual Life, not physical blood. They WANTED that life. The young rich man came to Jesus asking what he must do to gain life. So in another passage, when Jesus says "Drink my blood" that's not an answer that a carnal mind can accept and will cause them who WANTED life to turn away.

That betrayal is what caused Christ's death....and life. How ironic.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I think they knew more than they are given credit for......consider this.........

John 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;  52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. 53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

[Seth]

:cloud9: I think they knew more than they are given credit for......consider this.........

John 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;  52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. 53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

Interesting that the passage adds "this he spake he that not of himself." When someone is prophesying, who is inspiring the speech?

As the Bible says: They knew him not. For as the passage also says "Ye know nothing at all."

If they knew the mysteries, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory.  :dontknow:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: My point was, that it was revealed to them, so at a certain point, they knew and were then accountable for what they knew. Blessings.....

[Seth]

I don't believe them knowing is a prerequisite for being accountable. There is an old saying: Ignorance of the Law is no excuse. If a cop pulls you over and you say "I didn't know about that" he will still give you a ticket.

[Zeek]

I don't believe them knowing is a prerequisite for being accountable. There is an old saying: Ignorance of the Law is no excuse.

I haven't read this whole thread, so I apologize if these verses are not in line  with the discussion; but I personally see a difference between sins of ignorance, and sins after revelation:



Father forgive them for they know not what they do.


If they sin willingly after.....remain no more sacrifice for sin

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Mar 3:29  But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 1:19  Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.

Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

[Seth]

I don't believe them knowing is a prerequisite for being accountable. There is an old saying: Ignorance of the Law is no excuse.

I haven't read this whole thread, so I apologize if these verses are not in line  with the discussion; but I personally see a difference between sins of ignorance, and sins after revelation:



Father forgive them for they know not what they do.


If they sin willingly after.....remain no more sacrifice for sin

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Mar 3:29  But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 1:19  Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.

Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

But forgiveness is not a counterpoint to judgment, if judgment is good for the the one being judged, see what I mean? The cross is the judgment of the whole world. EVERYONE will be judged by it to kill the flesh in one way or another as we discussed in the LOF thread. Take the Prodigal Son, the Father showed no signs of wrath against the Son, yet he gave him what he wanted. The results were good, but the experience was pretty rough.

[Seth]

If they sin willingly after.....remain no more sacrifice for sin

Since the death that Jesus died is "the judgment of the world" I take the above statement to mean that there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin: either it's grace or resistance, the flesh is going to die. There is NO other judgment of the world than the cross. Grace is not ignorant of sin if it chastises us to live godly lives.

We were reconciled to God while we were enemies, and I don't think even when we willfully sin, we get unreconciled. It's just that the sacrifice is the judgment of the world, so everyone's carnal mind will be sacrificed, so pick: grace or resistance.

That is what I think it means.

[Seth]

BTW, "They know not what they do" is the crux of what I am saying.