Report: Nearly 1 in 4 People Worldwide Is Muslim

[WhiteWings]

/EDIT
Just before I posted this reply you replied to my earlier reply. So I guess we already have agreement.
Anyway I just leave this post here as extra clarification. Not an argument.

But the GODLY dictatorship removes the disobedience to love so that we always are following commandments by nature, not as in a struggle.

Exactly. But is that really being ruled?

His dominance over his creation is not a grievous thing, because it causes us to walk within him

Does the Bible teach God has dominace over us?
Jesus had dominance. A fair and just King. But still using an iron rod to submit.
But when speaking about the kings and rules are gone.
Then the Bible speaks about "all in all".
I fully admit I can't fully graps what that exactly means. But I have a strong feeling its much different from obeying someones rules. Isn't the ulitmate rulership that the ruler doesn't (have to) rule because the subjects want exactly the same things.
Jesus is the perfect Judge. But in a not perfect world because in a perfect world the Judge is without a work and the prisons are empty. And I think that is the true meaning of Jesus having everything under His feet. The last dealings with sin are complely finished. There is no more sin so Father is kinda without a job. All that's left is enjoying eternity :thumbsup:

[Seth]

I think the word "dominance" has also a negative connotation because of associations with how MAN uses it. But I do believe the Bible teaches that God has dominance because dominance is defined as "having power or influence on another." So based on what we are talking about, I believe that "power and influence" be upon us eternally as we continue in his love.

Isn't it interesting how the way we view words has such an effect on our conversations? To me it's fascinating.

[WhiteWings]

I think the word "dominance" has also a negative connotation because of associations with how MAN uses it.

For me it has a negative connotation.

But I do believe the Bible teaches that God has dominance because dominance is defined as "having power or influence on another."

I assume that other doesn't include God otherwise He is 'forced' to change.

Isn't it interesting how the way we view words has such an effect on our conversations? To me it's fascinating.

Words is all we have. The Bible is words. Many lost their lives because of different interpretation of words.
That's why I find it a good thing that many people really try to find the true meaning of words.
Only with the true meaning of words the Bible can be understood. Ask the ETs with their word twisting theology as a workaround for misunderstood words.

[Seth]

has a negative connotation.

I know. To me it is positive, but to each is own.

I assume that other doesn't include God otherwise He is 'forced' to change.

I don't say forced, but caused.

Words is all we have. The Bible is words. Many lost their lives because of different interpretation of words.
That's why I find it a good thing that many people really try to find the true meaning of words.
Only with the true meaning of words the Bible can be understood. Ask the ETs with their word twisting theology as a workaround for misunderstood words.

I agree.

[Molly]

All that's left is enjoying eternity

Yep.  I'm with you.



6 Place me like a seal over your heart,
      like a seal on your arm;
      for love is as strong as death,
      its jealousy unyielding as the grave.  
      It burns like blazing fire,
      like a mighty flame.  

7 Many waters cannot quench love;
      rivers cannot wash it away.
      If one were to give
      all the wealth of his house for love,
      it  would be utterly scorned.

--Song of Solomon 8

[WhiteWings]

I assume that other doesn't include God otherwise He is 'forced' to change.

I don't say forced, but caused.

Ok. But the result is that God changed. And that is a contradiction with the Bible.
We change toward God. Not the otherway around.

[Seth]

"for love is as strong as death,
      its jealousy unyielding as the grave."

Look at that....God is a jealous lover. Amazing how the Bible keeps flipping things usually associated with negativity. I love that about Him.

[Seth]

I assume that other doesn't include God otherwise He is 'forced' to change.

I don't say forced, but caused.

Ok. But the result is that God changed. And that is a contradiction with the Bible.
We change toward God. Not the otherway around.

Oops I misunderstood your words, to say "otherwise WE are forced to change." Sorry about that. Yes, God does not change. We do. The cause of that change is God who is Spirit. Eternally, we will be in that Spirit and so forth be "walking" in him. That is how God has dominance, which is a wonderful thing, even though in the natural that word has a tendency to make us itchy. Still, I see that as continued submission, which I see as simply an eternal obedience. Obedience is simply compliance, which does not require a desire for disobedience to be so.

[Seth]

Oprah Winfrey said that she stopped being a Christian when she heard the preacher teach that our God is a "jealous God."

I WANT God to be possessive of me. But I DON'T want a human to be possessive. One is positive. Why WOULDN'T we want God to be dominant? Is there something wrong with his power and influence in such a way that we would not want our Jealous God to be so passionately possessive of us?

You would have to give up your normal association of human jealousy to appreciate that.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Jesus was interested in doing the Father's will, and only His will. "I can do nothing of myself." Not much there about "freedom" as we so often hear preached.
There must be some precious jewel in submission..
And Jesus also told us that if we want to be great we must become small. Being a king in the Kingdom has nothing to do with what a king is like as the world knows it.
How many Christians today will lay down their lives for "sinners?" Most, I fear, are more focused on being a "king" and judging others..

[Seth]

whyiloveitaly AMEN

:thumbsup:

[Molly]

"for love is as strong as death,
      its jealousy unyielding as the grave."

Look at that....God is a jealous lover. Amazing how the Bible keeps flipping things usually associated with negativity. I love that about Him.

Yep. :thumbsup:

James 4:5
5 Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, "He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us"?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Pertaining to the previous Mohammed conversation; it's been over 20 years and for all I know the "official version" may have been changed by now to protect the, er, innocent, but I read an account somewhere of his receiving his "holy" scriptures.

The angel that appeared to him in a cave, unfurled a banner and told him to read. When he didn;t, the angel hit him over the head with it. This happened 3 times before Mohammed pointed out the fact he was illiterate. Apparently, the angel of the Lord was not previously informed that his intended recipient of scriptures, couldn't read. Don't you just hate it when that happens?  :mshock:  :winkgrin: Blessings.....

[Taffy]

:cloud9: Pertaining to the previous Mohammed conversation; it's been over 20 years and for all I know the "official version" may have been changed by now to protect the, er, innocent, but I read an account somewhere of his receiving his "holy" scriptures.

The angel that appeared to him in a cave, unfurled a banner and told him to read. When he did, the angel hit him over the head with it. This happened 3 times before Mohammed pointed out the fact he was illiterate. Apparently, the angel of the Lord was not previously informed that his intended recipient of scriptures, couldn't read. Don't you just hate it when that happens?   :mshock:  :winkgrin: Blessings.....

:icon_flower: :cloud9:
do you do Comedy in the spare time you may have.....sorry im rocking... :laughing7: :icon_flower:

[Beloved Servant]

Me too Taffy.

[Taffy]

Me too Taffy.

Honestly BS - im crying with laughter...I kid you not..
:bigGrin:I havent laughed sooooooooo much in ages... :icon_flower:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: It's been one of them days, and I was feeling feisty....... :laughing7: :mblush:

[Gab]

For starters, have you studied the history of Muhammad?  Since he is responsible for the Quran and is considered the prophet, don't you think it would be important to look at his life, as we look at the life of Jesus?

The Ottoman empire became a vast and successful empire, and yes they did have 'nonbelievers' living within their borders, other peoples, as all empires do, but they were considered second class citizens, and more importantly, they were taxed for the benefit of the muslims.

But, the religion's main man was not a man of peace.  In those days, one did not easily establish an empire by peaceful means, which is why Jesus said at the time, my kingdom is not of this world.

After his migration to Medina, Muhammad's attitude towards Christians and Jews changed. Norman Stillman states:[8]

During this fateful time, fraught with tension after the Hijra [migration to Medina], when Muhammad encountered contradiction, ridicule and rejection from the Jewish scholars in Medina, he came to adopt a radically more negative view of the people of the Book who had received earlier scriptures. This attitude was already evolving in the third Meccan period as the Prophet became more aware of the antipathy between Jews and Christians and the disagreements and strife amongst members of the same religion. The Qur'an at this time states that it will "relate [correctly] to the Children of Israel most of that about which they differ" (XXVII, 76).

Economically uprooted and with no available profession besides that of arms, the Muslim migrants turned to raiding Meccan caravans for their livelihood, thus initiating armed conflict between the Muslims and Mecca.[9][10] Muhammad delivered Qur'anic verses permitting the Muslims to fight the Meccans (see Qur'an 22:39–40).[11] These attacks provoked and pressured Mecca by interfering with trade, and allowed the Muslims to acquire wealth, power and prestige while working toward their ultimate goal of inducing Mecca's submission to the new faith.[12]

[13] In March of 624, Muhammad led some three hundred warriors in a raid on a Meccan merchant caravan. The Muslims set an ambush for the Meccans at Badr.[14] Aware of the plan, the Meccan caravan eluded Muslims. Meanwhile a force from Mecca was sent to protect the caravan. The force did not return home upon hearing that the caravan was safe. The battle of Badr began in March of 624.[15] Though outnumbered more than three to one, the Muslims won the battle, killing at least forty-five Meccans and taking seventy prisoners for ransom; only fourteen Muslims died. They had also succeeded in killing many of the Meccan leaders, including Abu Jahl.[16] Muhammad himself did not fight, directing the battle from a nearby hut alongside Abu Bakr.[17]

In the weeks following the battle, Meccans visited Medina in order to ransom captives from Badr. Many of these had belonged to wealthy families, and were likely ransomed for a considerable sum. Those captives who were not sufficiently influential or wealthy were usually freed without ransom. Muhammad's decision was that those who were wealthy but did not ransom themselves should be killed.[18][19] Muhammad ordered the immediate execution of two men without entertaining offers for their release.[19] One of the men, Uqba ibn Abu Mu'ayt, had written verses about Muhammad, and the other had said that his own stories about Persians were as good as the tales of the Qur'an.[18] The raiders had won much booty, and the battle helped to stabilize the Medinan community.[20] Muhammad and his followers saw in the victory a confirmation of their faith. prime importance in the affairs of Medina. Those remaining pagans in Medina were very bitter about the advance of Islam. In particular Asma bint Marwan and Abu 'Afak had composed verses taunting and insulting some of the Muslims. These two were assassinated and Muhammad did not disapprove of it. No one dared to take vengeance on them, and some of the members of the clan of Asma bint Marwan who had previously converted to Islam in secret, now professed Islam openly. This marked an end to the overt opposition to Muhammad among the pagans in Medina.[21]

Muhammad expelled from Medina the Banu Qaynuqa, one of the three main Jewish tribes.[3] Jewish opposition "may well have been for political as well as religious reasons".[22] On religious grounds, the Jews were skeptical of the possibility of a non-Jewish prophet,[23] and also had concerns about possible incompatibilities between the Qur'an and their own scriptures.[23][24] The Qur'an's response regarding the possibility of a non-Jew being a prophet was that Abraham was not a Jew. The Qur'an also stated that it was "restoring the pure monotheism of Abraham which had been corrupted in various, clearly specified, ways by Jews and Christians".[23] According to Francis Edwards Peters, "The Jews also began secretly to connive with Muhammad's enemies in Mecca to overthrow him."[25]

Following the battle of Badr, Muhammad also made mutual-aid alliances with a number of Bedouin tribes to protect his community from attacks from the northern part of Hijaz.[3]

--Wikipedia

And so on....

There are a number of things which should be noted here.

First, I'm not a Muslim, so I am not arguing in favor of Islam's correctness or Muhammad's status as a prophet of God.

Second, Muhammad's status in Islam is not equivalent to Jesus' status in Christianity.  Muhammad was not, and was never presented as, a perfect individual whose life was the life all should follow.  His position in Islam is roughly equivalent to the position of Moses in Judaism.  This is precisely the reason why the Hadiths are separated from the Qur'an, as the divinely inspired scriptures presented to Muhammad were the intended foundation for the people's lives.  Some have even suggested that God intentionally chose an imperfect man through whom to deliver the Qur'an, as then no one would make the mistake that they believed was made towards Jesus of elevating Muhammad to a status equal to that of God.  All praise and thanks, the Qur'an stresses, are to God, not to any man.

Third, you can't just lift a passage from Wikipedia that details only a portion of his life and then come to a final conclusion about the entire person.  Muhammad's differences with Jews and Christians were political in nature, not religious - had they been religious, then it seems to me that they would have been in place from the very beginning, and he would not have declared an amnesty for past offenses when he conquered Mecca.

The sole purpose of everything I've been saying is to give evidence against the idea that the Qur'an does not say anything about love and that Islam is necessarily a religion of death and violence.  I don't really see anything in your post that builds support for these two assertions.  Muhammad clearly did not desire the extermination of non-Muslims; otherwise, he would have had such a thing carried out.  Nor is there anything in the Qur'an that states such a thing, as I have explained.

:cloud9: Pertaining to the previous Mohammed conversation; it's been over 20 years and for all I know the "official version" may have been changed by now to protect the, er, innocent, but I read an account somewhere of his receiving his "holy" scriptures.

The angel that appeared to him in a cave, unfurled a banner and told him to read. When he didn;t, the angel hit him over the head with it. This happened 3 times before Mohammed pointed out the fact he was illiterate. Apparently, the angel of the Lord was not previously informed that his intended recipient of scriptures, couldn't read. Don't you just hate it when that happens?  :mshock:  :winkgrin: Blessings.....

:laughing7: Funny, although, as I'm sure you're probably aware, not exactly what people believe.  Some do hold that Muhammad was illiterate and offer this as evidence of the divinely inspired nature of the Qur'an, whereas others don't, but I don't know of any that express the idea that the angel (Gabriel, it was) who approached him was unaware of his literary status.  Most scholars agree that he was not illiterate.

[Raggedy Anne]

Clearly, none of us are worthy to judge people or nations.  It is presumptuous, at best, for us to do so. 

Anne

[WhiteWings]

Second, Muhammad's status in Islam is not equivalent to Jesus' status in Christianity.  Muhammad was not, and was never presented as, a perfect individual whose life was the life all should follow.  His position in Islam is roughly equivalent to the position of Moses in Judaism.  This is precisely the reason why the Hadiths are separated from the Qur'an, as the divinely inspired scriptures presented to Muhammad were the intended foundation for the people's lives.  Some have even suggested that God intentionally chose an imperfect man through whom to deliver the Qur'an, as then no one would make the mistake that they believed was made towards Jesus of elevating Muhammad to a status equal to that of God.

Are you sure of that Gab?
Isn't mo presented as a higher prophet than Jesus?
It doesn't really make sense if not. Muslims accept all the fathers from the Bible. Also that Jesus was the highest prophet from the Bible. If their prophet is equal to Moses that would mean lower than Jesus. That would mean he can never change the teachings of Jesus.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Well, it should be noted that whoever's work it was I read over 20 years ago, was actually PRO Muslim. I wasn't reading a detractor's words, and it was they who said the angel hit him, ect.

That alone tells me it was not an angel of the Lord, and definitely not Gabriel, whose purpose in this age, is to tell "Mary, the unawakened church", that there's life inside her, ala the gospel in shortened condensed version.

And it's not about judging anything but the spirit behind the idol, as we are to judge "angels" = messages or messengers. Blessings....

[reFORMer]

There has never been a "Christian" army.  The closest was the Knights Templar, which were more like security guards for the "Holy Land Tours" of that time.  Certainly, there were never any "Christian" death squads or terrorist organizations.  Unlike any other religion in the history of mankind, for about 300 years there was on the earth a religion that had no temples, no priest, and no holy "things" (ie., objects of veneration.)  We all were the priests to the rest of humanity.  We ourselves were the temple of the living God and His presence was with us.  He alone was to be bowed down to.  Our leader, Jesus, was the originator of the idea of personal liberty.  He was understood to be the Savior of all, whether they accepted it in this life or not.  He taught God would chasten us beyond this life if need be, but would surely transform us into the image and likeness of God, all of us to be resurrected one day.  The surrounding religions left mankind in the grave, many in various hells of torment for ever.  Here instead was a path of mercy and tender pity, a hope beyond death, a way of elevating the value of every human person.

I know that the true God answers to the name of Jesus.  He really answers!  Call on the name of other gods and they will not answer.  Jesus saves!  Many who claim to represent those who believe in Jesus refuse to actually follow Him, mostly through indoctrination into any variety of the traditions of men; but, God is worthy of a people upon whom He will place His name.  That name is not Gautama or Tenzin; it is not Brahm or Brahma, or, Shiva, Vishnu, or Krishna; it is not Allah or Mohammad.  Jesus is the name above every name that can be named, in the heavens or in earth.  Submission to Him by all mankind will not come by coercion of superior strength or force of weapons, but willing recognition arising from within.

Philippians 2:5-11 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
5 ...let this disposition be in you, which is in Christ Jesus also,
6 Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
7 nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name,
10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean,
11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.

[jabcat]

I know that the true God answers to the name of Jesus.  He really answers!  Call on the name of other gods and they will not answer.  Jesus saves!  Many who claim to represent those who believe in Jesus refuse to actually follow Him, mostly through indoctrination into any variety of the traditions of men; but, God is worthy of a people upon whom He will place His name.  That name is not Gautama or Tenzin; it is not Brahm or Brahma, or, Shiva, Vishnu, or Krishna; it is not Allah or Mohammad.  Jesus is the name above every name that can be named, in the heavens or in earth.  Submission to Him by all mankind will not come by coercion of superior strength or force of weapons, but willing recognition arising from within.

Philippians 2:5-11 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
5 ...let this disposition be in you, which is in Christ Jesus also,
6 Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
7 nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name,
10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean,
11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.

:thumbsup:  :goodpost:  :ty:  :iagree:  :first:

[Molly]

Third, you can't just lift a passage from Wikipedia that details only a portion of his life and then come to a final conclusion about the entire person.

I know that.  I was trying to give a flavor of his life and his intent because you will know them by their fruits.  Obviously, I can't put his entire life story up here.  But, it is clear even from that small passage that he was a man of war, a man with an agenda, and, according to that article, he was even writing parts of the Quran to advance his cause of war.

Jesus preached peace but his life also illustrated it, even unto death.  Jesus is unique among men in so many ways.

[reFORMer]

Can any Moslem dismiss from their mind that Mohammad, their god's foremost spokesman, had 58 wives, at least one of whom was 13 years old and several other weren't much older?

Are there any implications here?

________________________________
I should probably stop the above sort of thing.  Early on in walking with the Lord there was impressed on me a strong, though not absolute, teaching I felt was surely of God that I should not spend time trying to understand and master other religions to show what was false or inferior about them; but, I was to rather know the truth and study the Bible to know all I could about the true God and let that speak to others.  God will use our knowledge of truth more to deliver others from error than all our knowledge of error ever can.  "...the fruit of righteousness is being sown in peace for those making peace." (James 3:18, CLT)